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lyle6https://www.politico.eu/article/armenia-president-armen-sarkissian-nato-turkey-involvement-nagorno-karabakh/
Jesus wept.
Jesus wept.
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2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1
lyle6- Posts : 2607
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GarryB- Posts : 40580
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He loose credibility for its other allies that will switch for NATO or Chinese military deals dince he can't protect Armenia against Azerbaijan.
Some members are telling us what Putin will or will not do... it is amusing... they say he is scared of Turkey and will do nothing... seems strange to suggest this in my opinion when he stands up to the US and EU and Turkey and Israel supporting terrorists in Syria trying to overthrow the government there...
The CSTO is an organisation which Armenia is a part of and Russia to and there are commitments and agreements that are part of that organisation that require mutual support and assistance...
Those complaining at Putins inaction obviously don't understand how such agreements work... Russia is not obliged to vapourise Azeri and Turkish territory without even being asked to by Armenia... no agreements work that way.
If Armenia does ask for help it will be a carefully considered measured response... much like the occupation of Georgian territory for a short period in the 8 8 8 conflict... Russia has a contingent of troops in Armenia... just like they did in South Ossetia... the Azeris were not stupid enough to shell them like the Georgians were with their amazing western equipment and US training, but Russia certainly has its own interests in the region too.
None of the sides in the conflict are going to just disappear.... genocide is not an option so agreements have to be worked out and abided by.
Massively escalating things from either side would be counterproductive, but I would suggest that any terrorists sent in as cannon fodder for the Azeri side should be sent to the front immediately and lined up in nice rows for Armenian artillery to deal with for the long term benefit for all in the region... those fuckers are better off dead no matter what side you fight for. Someone mentioned animal behaviour... these guys wrote the book... decapitating children and burning women to death... cannon fodder is the best use for this scum...
par far, nomadski and Hole like this post
Isos- Posts : 11605
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I agree with you. But Putin will get traped if Armenia officialy ask for help. Russian are doing everything they can to stop that war peacefully, for that matter even France is and probably UK which has too much to loose if Russia attacks Azerbaijan (mainly oil production by UK there).
But Azerbaijani are not controling that much their military. Turkey is. And if Turkey tell them to go attack inside Armenia then Russia will have no choice than bomb Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijani have no real interest to fight Armenia this way. It is Azerbaijan that attacked and they know if Russia helps they are done.
Turkey however loves destroyed muslim countries because they can use terrorists there for their own interests more easily than control a muslim state like Azerbaijan that can ask for Russian or US support.
But Azerbaijani are not controling that much their military. Turkey is. And if Turkey tell them to go attack inside Armenia then Russia will have no choice than bomb Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijani have no real interest to fight Armenia this way. It is Azerbaijan that attacked and they know if Russia helps they are done.
Turkey however loves destroyed muslim countries because they can use terrorists there for their own interests more easily than control a muslim state like Azerbaijan that can ask for Russian or US support.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3925
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Isos wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:Arrow wrote:Putin will not come in. Putin is afraid of Turkey. Turkey becomes a regional power and deals the cards in the South Caucasus. Turkey is an ally of Azejberjan and will not allow Russia to touch it.
And what's Turkey going to do if Russia did? their army is far weaker conventionally than Russia's, Turkey's only hope would be NATO and NATO isn't going to go in over Azeribijan if Turkey decides to get its men killed by sending them there.
This is a moronic statement.
Of course Russia isn't going to do anything long as Azeri keeps the battle in NK.
Well technically Azerbaijan already attacked inside Armenia so they could ask Russian help publically. Putin will have no choice than go in because if he doesn't then he loose credibility.
But everything happens behind the doors and russians are working to stop the war and making sure Armenia doesn't ask for help over this conflict but also sends military signals to Azerbaijan to not push too much.
What incident are you speaking of exactly?
Armenia has never claimed Azeri attacked them and there is no proof minus some silly videos.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13479
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Isos wrote:...But Azerbaijani are not controling that much their military. Turkey is. And if Turkey tell them to go attack inside Armenia then Russia will have no choice than bomb Azerbaijan.
Turkey does control their armed forces and this is precisely why they will never attack inside Armenia
If they did then Russia would have valid excuse to roll in and Turks would drop them cold immediately
They both know this and aren't stupid enough to stick their dick in that particular blender
It's also why Armenia keeps screaming about being attacked without any usable evidence, they want Russia to get theirs and NK assess out of the fire after they dropped the ball on preparations for war because they wanted to chug that delicious Brussels cock
par far, kvs and miketheterrible like this post
PapaDragon- Posts : 13479
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Current map of the situation according to Azerbaijan
We don't really get any maps of this clustefuck unlike several previous ones so I'm posting this
Which place is supposed to be Stepankeret?
nomadski- Posts : 3079
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Another map. A little different positions. Looks like a lot of blood, for a little soil. I think stepanakert is known as khankendi also. In caucases, every town has name in Azeri, Persian, Russian, Greek.......
https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/
Position of Azer forces on khodafrin Bridge, Iran border, confirmed.
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1131989/%D9%81%DB%8C%D9%84%D9%85-%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85-%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D9%86%D8%B5%D8%A8-%D9%BE%D8%B1%DA%86%D9%85-%D8%A2%D8%B0%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D9%BE%D9%84-%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AE%DB%8C-%D8%AE%D8%AF%D8%A2%D9%81%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%86
https://caucasus.liveuamap.com/
Position of Azer forces on khodafrin Bridge, Iran border, confirmed.
https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1131989/%D9%81%DB%8C%D9%84%D9%85-%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85-%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D9%86%D8%B5%D8%A8-%D9%BE%D8%B1%DA%86%D9%85-%D8%A2%D8%B0%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D9%BE%D9%84-%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AE%DB%8C-%D8%AE%D8%AF%D8%A2%D9%81%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%86
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5958
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KhankendiWhich place is supposed to be Stepanakert?
Violence between Turks, Azeris & Armenians has a long history there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3N64MFGmkM
Trying To Be Neutral: Iran Worried Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict Could Turn Into Wider War
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
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PapaDragon wrote:
Current map of the situation according to Azerbaijan
We don't really get any maps of this clustefuck unlike several previous ones so I'm posting this
Which place is supposed to be Stepankeret?
The Azeri progress is rather slow. With the huge amount of gear and men they are throwing in, they should have taken Stepanakert by now. Afrin campaign went much faster than this.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5958
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There may be more disasters like this: https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azeri-veterans-recall-military-fiasco
If they chose, the RF &/ Iran will have no problem imposing peace on Azeris, just like with Georgia. By 1813 NK belonged to Russian Empire & as its successor, Russia can send her VDV & other units to take it back to stop them fighting over it, as Turkologist & politician Zhirinovsky recently suggested in the Duma.
If they chose, the RF &/ Iran will have no problem imposing peace on Azeris, just like with Georgia. By 1813 NK belonged to Russian Empire & as its successor, Russia can send her VDV & other units to take it back to stop them fighting over it, as Turkologist & politician Zhirinovsky recently suggested in the Duma.
nomadski- Posts : 3079
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The live map page, from Virginia, USA, I posted earlier. Supposedly neutral, medicine San frontier! Yet knows possible location of Armenian S300 in NK !
If this site was in Armenia NK, and was hit by Usrael LORA missile, irrespective of what was in boxes. S300 or fresh air. Then this indicates level of help from Usrael or NATO.
Maybe the boxes put out, timer started, to see how long an attack, and how an attack is done. Sattelite info provided or otherwise. But if the NATO directly fighting Armenia, then serious escalation. No good appealing to NATO.
I said before, proportional support. In response. As you said also. Then Armenia said a couple of hours ago, if no discussions, will recognise NK.
Meaning Armenia will fire on Azer. AZER will fire on Armenia. Russia will then provide a road map for missile to take out X, Y, Z. A balance of power. Then discussion.
If this site was in Armenia NK, and was hit by Usrael LORA missile, irrespective of what was in boxes. S300 or fresh air. Then this indicates level of help from Usrael or NATO.
Maybe the boxes put out, timer started, to see how long an attack, and how an attack is done. Sattelite info provided or otherwise. But if the NATO directly fighting Armenia, then serious escalation. No good appealing to NATO.
I said before, proportional support. In response. As you said also. Then Armenia said a couple of hours ago, if no discussions, will recognise NK.
Meaning Armenia will fire on Azer. AZER will fire on Armenia. Russia will then provide a road map for missile to take out X, Y, Z. A balance of power. Then discussion.
Last edited by nomadski on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
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nomadski wrote:The live map page, from Virginia, USA, I posted earlier. Supposedly neutral, medicine San frontier! Yet knows possible location of Armenian S300 in NK !
If this site was in Armenia NK, and was hit by Usrael LORA missile, irrespective of what was in boxes. S300 or fresh air. Then this indicates level of help from Usrael or NATO.
Maybe the boxes put out, timer started, to see how long an attack, and how an attack is done. But if the NATO directly fighting Armenia, then serious escalation. No good appealing to NATO.
I said before, proportional support. In response. As you said also. Then Armenia said a couple of hours ago, if no discussions, will recognise NK.
Meaning Armenia will fire on Azer. AZER will fire on Armenia. Russia will then provide a road map for missile to take out X, Y, Z. A balance of power. Then discussion.
It's a matter of time before Artsakh joins Armenia for protection. Pashinyan has visited Artsakh many times. Armenia unofficially recognizes Artsakh. Of course, the question is, what will Russia do when Armenia invokes chapter 4? That will be the test for Putin.
nomadski- Posts : 3079
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I think, the political decisions are taken collectively. At a deeper level. Involving many surprising players.
So if I am right, once Armenia recognises NK, Artsakh. As independent or part of Armenia. Then the Russia leadership will do it's part. There won't be any dragging of heels.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
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nomadski wrote:
I think, the political decisions are taken collectively. At a deeper level. Involving many surprising players.
So if I am right, once Armenia recognises NK, Artsakh. As independent or part of Armenia. Then the Russia leadership will do it's part. There won't be any dragging of heels.
The moment Armenia recognizes Artsakh is the moment Armenia severs diplomatic relation with Azerbaijan. Likewise, the moment Russia recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia is the moment Russia severed diplomatic relation with Georgia. Likewise, the moment Russia recognized Crimea is the moment Russia severed diplomatic relation with Ukraine. It is painful but sometimes it's the only way out. You can think the stupid Soviets for slicing dicing the former Russian empire into the world's most stupid borders you can possibly ever come up with.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13479
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nomadski wrote:...So if I am right, once Armenia recognises NK, Artsakh. As independent or part of Armenia. Then the Russia leadership will do it's part. There won't be any dragging of heels.
No they won't, time for that has passed
Now they are playing at the big boys' table
If they want Russia to get involved they will have to send their own military to NK first, start hitting Azeri oil infrastructure and commit fully to this war
Only then can they expect Russia to consider getting involved
Russia needs valid justification for getting involved in Azeri internal matter and stopping massive escalating bloodbath is almost valid justification
Russia has no reason to do jack shit until Armenia charges the machine gun nest with their bare hands
After the whole color revolution fiasco a grand gesture needs to be made and the price has gone up significantly once Azerbaijan pulled the trigger (and got bumped some more with Pashinian's two faced waffling)
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5958
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FYI, RF & Ukraine still have diplomatic relations, while Armenia & Azerbaijan don't.
Azerbaijan showed the capture of an Armenian military unit
Azerbaijan showed the capture of an Armenian military unit
GarryB- Posts : 40580
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But Putin will get traped if Armenia officialy ask for help.
I think you are listening to the wrong members opinions on this forum... Armenia is an ally of Russia... why do you think Putin does not want to help them?
Russian are doing everything they can to stop that war peacefully, f
It is shocking that you from a western country find this strange and unusual... normal people avoid war and conflict and try to find peaceful settlements that both sides are happy with... and you have the temerity to call yourself civilised...
for that matter even France is and probably UK which has too much to loose if Russia attacks Azerbaijan (mainly oil production by UK there).
At the end of the day Russia has good relations with both countries but has defence agreements with one country that the other country is attacking.
Do you think Putin would hate bombing British oil interests in Azeri territory?
I mean they blame him for murdering people on their territory with potent nerve agents that could kill thousands... what is an oil refinery here or there?
If the British and Russians swapped places they wouldn't wait... they would be bombing those oil refineries first chance they got.
And if Turkey tell them to go attack inside Armenia then Russia will have no choice than bomb Azerbaijan.
If the chain of command goes to Turkey I am sure they can find the buttons to push to solve that problem... Putin is not the US... they don't just have cruise missiles and bombers to solve their problems.
Azerbaijani have no real interest to fight Armenia this way. It is Azerbaijan that attacked and they know if Russia helps they are done.
History suggests they will struggle either way...
Turkey however loves destroyed muslim countries because they can use terrorists there for their own interests more easily than control a muslim state like Azerbaijan that can ask for Russian or US support.
It is not in Turkeys interests for a very large Russian force to move in to the region either...
The Azeri progress is rather slow. With the huge amount of gear and men they are throwing in, they should have taken Stepanakert by now. Afrin campaign went much faster than this.
I seem to remember complaints about how slow it was in Syria getting rid of ISIS... maybe such things take time...
You can think the stupid Soviets for slicing dicing the former Russian empire into the world's most stupid borders you can possibly ever come up with.
To be fair stupid cartographers have been causing problems for centuries around the world...
nomadski- Posts : 3079
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National defence. Commonwealth of independent states. CSTO. All hinge on there being national forces, that act in national interest. Or cooperate on mutual security.
Do leadership in Armenia or Azer, qualify as Democratic and national forces, acting in the interests of their people or the interests of people in region?
So our expectations are misplaced. And by inaction, we leave our fate and prosperity in the hands of foreign agents and madmen.
So to stop the region being turned into another Iraq or Syria, Russia and Iran and China must act. A positive and decisive intervention.
To establish a line of demarcation. Suppress offensive fire. And troop movement. And the arrest and imprisonment of foreign NATO agents.
We used to know people ( in Azer), in the old days, who used to run the place. They were neither Liberal, nor anti- Iran or anti-Russia or NATO. But they have died. But their children are there..........
AbdulhamidtheSecond- Posts : 220
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Azerbaijani forces captured Hudagerin bridge and surrounding area. Fuzuli and nearby defensive lines are captured. Currently there are no organized defensive lines exist between Azerbaijani forces and Shusha. That is why armenian side keep begging for cease-fire.
Zengilan is under crosshair range. Up north, MSR of armenian side is under constant fire.
If Azerbaijan keeps pushing for couple of weeks more, entire MSR will be captured.
Zengilan is under crosshair range. Up north, MSR of armenian side is under constant fire.
If Azerbaijan keeps pushing for couple of weeks more, entire MSR will be captured.
Maximmmm- Posts : 320
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AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Azerbaijani forces captured Hudagerin bridge and surrounding area. Fuzuli and nearby defensive lines are captured. Currently there are no organized defensive lines exist between Azerbaijani forces and Shusha. That is why armenian side keep begging for cease-fire.
Zengilan is under crosshair range. Up north, MSR of armenian side is under constant fire.
If Azerbaijan keeps pushing for couple of weeks more, entire MSR will be captured.
It's quite clear that they're unable to stabilize the front in the south. Armenia has to make a decision now, either it recognizes NK and goes to war or tries to push for some sort of peace agreement with massive concessions, or they risk watching the entire territory slowly be taken over.
Aerial superiority really is a bitch.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5958
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what's MSR? Pl. spell out all future abbreviations u r going to post.AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:If Azerbaijan keeps pushing for couple of weeks more, entire MSR will be captured.
https://nvo.ng.ru/nvoevents/2020-10-18/100_nvo18102020_1.html?print=Y
https://ria.ru/20201019/oshibka-1580406272.html
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/19/10/2020/5f8d686e9a79478aaffb8741
Amid war, Armenians closely watching the signals from Russia
AbdulhamidtheSecond- Posts : 220
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MSR : Main Supply Route
kvs- Posts : 15876
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The Azeris are scum. Following their nazionalist logic Armenia should be grabbing the enclave to the west of NK. The Azeris feel
invincible because they have Turkey at their back. What retards. This pattern is the same as Bosnia i Herzegovina where
Izetbegovic got brave once the US started egging him on to break the 1992 Lisbon accords and try to grab all the territory.
Why should the Azeri exclave be officially recognized when NK isn't? What deeper history does this exclave have compared to
NK? None.
invincible because they have Turkey at their back. What retards. This pattern is the same as Bosnia i Herzegovina where
Izetbegovic got brave once the US started egging him on to break the 1992 Lisbon accords and try to grab all the territory.
Why should the Azeri exclave be officially recognized when NK isn't? What deeper history does this exclave have compared to
NK? None.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
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kvs wrote:The Azeris are scum. Following their nazionalist logic Armenia should be grabbing the enclave to the west of NK. The Azeris feel
invincible because they have Turkey at their back. What retards. This pattern is the same as Bosnia i Herzegovina where
Izetbegovic got brave once the US started egging him on to break the 1992 Lisbon accords and try to grab all the territory.
Why should the Azeri exclave be officially recognized when NK isn't? What deeper history does this exclave have compared to
NK? None.
You can thank the Soviets for the fucked up border between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
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Maximmmm wrote:AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Azerbaijani forces captured Hudagerin bridge and surrounding area. Fuzuli and nearby defensive lines are captured. Currently there are no organized defensive lines exist between Azerbaijani forces and Shusha. That is why armenian side keep begging for cease-fire.
Zengilan is under crosshair range. Up north, MSR of armenian side is under constant fire.
If Azerbaijan keeps pushing for couple of weeks more, entire MSR will be captured.
It's quite clear that they're unable to stabilize the front in the south. Armenia has to make a decision now, either it recognizes NK and goes to war or tries to push for some sort of peace agreement with massive concessions, or they risk watching the entire territory slowly be taken over.
Aerial superiority really is a bitch.
In the south is where Azeris deployed their most elite units including all their T-90 tanks and Spike equipped Sandcats.