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Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
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2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2
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franco wrote:KoTeMoRe wrote:Pacense wrote:I still don't see how this a victory for Russia.
Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.
I don't quite see evidence that Armenia tried to come closer to Nato, or the West. Even if the current political leadership try it, its what we call in Portugal, foam from the drink. It's just political manauvers on the daily basis. Today Armenia has this PM, tomorrow it can elect another. We must see things in the long run.
My point is: Turkey who had no saying in that region has a strong saying now. And no matter how we see it, the Armenian populaion will leave NK for good, as there living conditions there will be impossible. So basically, a Turkish-Muslin country conquered some territoy to Indo European-Christian country.
Can't grasp any shred of victory here. Zero.
Hope I'm wrong.
Boots on the ground cost Russia almost nothing in cmparison to what they already spend for the the Two Brigades in Armenia.
Things in the long run, are the same. Armenia had no legal standing in Karabagh. Now it has one.
Turkey had a lot to say in the Region as it served as a revolving door for Georgia and Azerbaijan. You maybe forget that Turkey offered to "help" in case the 12th military base in Batumi resisted withdrawal .
Armenian population with retract from parts of NK, but surely not move from Artsakh fully because the Russian interest is to have them there.
It was a Muslim country to begin with. There are many historical faults from the USSR, but legally that land would have to be wrestled from Azerbaijan through sheer and utter destruction. It's doable, just not now.
What do you have for details on the "Two Brigades"? Understand that yes there were two brigades and there are Ground Forces in both Gyumri and Yerevan but there is only enough manpower stationed there for one brigade (barely). One of my unresolved questions. Thanks
Nominally Russia pays for allotments of two Brigades, the former 127th and 162nd. However since 2015 there are only 3 battalions worth of troops plus the flyboys.
This related to the cost, not the actual troops.
franco
franco- Posts : 7043
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Thank you. Corresponds to other data that I have seen with the 102nd Military Base becoming a "new" Motor Rifle brigade type with 2 motor rifle battalions at Gyumri and 1 in Yerevan.
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One thing to take from this war is attack drones rule future battlefields. There won't be huge wars like WW1 and WW2 anymore. Future wars don't involve millions of men thousands of tanks. Future wars are all about precision and information. Armenia will likely go for Chinese Wing Loong 10 considering China is the global leader when it comes to attack drones. This is pretty evident considering Nigeria recently bought Wing Loong 2 attack drones from China.
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If these useful idiots actually done something a month ago...George1 wrote:
Oh well, Armpitya 0, Azerbaijan 1, Russia 100. 
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Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
There was no game. Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders.
The only reason there are Russian peacekeepers in NK is because Pussynian's regime finally folded when NK was about to be
fully lost and accepted Russian help. Russia had something over the Azeris due to the shooting down of its helicopter. It did not
have anything over Armenia to force any peacekeepers on it in a "gangster move".
People keep ignoring that Pussynian is a Soros project. So his regime would not have even asked Russia for ELINT.
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magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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kvs wrote:Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
There was no game. Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders.
The only reason there are Russian peacekeepers in NK is because Pussynian's regime finally folded when NK was about to be
fully lost and accepted Russian help. Russia had something over the Azeris due to the shooting down of its helicopter. It did not
have anything over Armenia to force any peacekeepers on it in a "gangster move".
People keep ignoring that Pussynian is a Soros project. So his regime would not have even asked Russia for ELINT.
The brightside is that Soro's name is now equatable to a pile of feces for them, with the Soros/RFERL offices trashed and their quislings getting their asses kicked in.
kvs- Posts : 15839
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magnumcromagnon wrote:kvs wrote:Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
There was no game. Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders.
The only reason there are Russian peacekeepers in NK is because Pussynian's regime finally folded when NK was about to be
fully lost and accepted Russian help. Russia had something over the Azeris due to the shooting down of its helicopter. It did not
have anything over Armenia to force any peacekeepers on it in a "gangster move".
People keep ignoring that Pussynian is a Soros project. So his regime would not have even asked Russia for ELINT.
The brightside is that Soro's name is now equatable to a pile of feces for them, with the Soros/RFERL offices trashed and their quislings getting their asses kicked in.
I hope that there is a genuine regime change in Armenia but I am not holding my breath. There were reasons it was there in the
first place and those reasons have not gone away. But for sure these protestors know the deal when it comes to Pussynian's
quisling regime.
Also, a lot of analysis goes on and on about how Russia has gained some sort of foothold in this region. BS. The 2000 peacekeepers
are not going to be exerting any sort of occupational control. This line is part of the "gangster move" narrative.
Maximmmm- Posts : 320
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kvs wrote:magnumcromagnon wrote:kvs wrote:Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
There was no game. Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders.
The only reason there are Russian peacekeepers in NK is because Pussynian's regime finally folded when NK was about to be
fully lost and accepted Russian help. Russia had something over the Azeris due to the shooting down of its helicopter. It did not
have anything over Armenia to force any peacekeepers on it in a "gangster move".
People keep ignoring that Pussynian is a Soros project. So his regime would not have even asked Russia for ELINT.
The brightside is that Soro's name is now equatable to a pile of feces for them, with the Soros/RFERL offices trashed and their quislings getting their asses kicked in.
I hope that there is a genuine regime change in Armenia but I am not holding my breath. There were reasons it was there in the
first place and those reasons have not gone away. But for sure these protestors know the deal when it comes to Pussynian's
quisling regime.
Also, a lot of analysis goes on and on about how Russia has gained some sort of foothold in this region. BS. The 2000 peacekeepers
are not going to be exerting any sort of occupational control. This line is part of the "gangster move" narrative.
I am not holding my breath either. What all former soviet republics have shown is that they're too goddamn full of themselves to ever accept being wrong. Even when in the case of say a Ukraine, Georgia or Armenia your country burns down in front of your eyes.
They always revert to the classics:
F%^$ Moscow, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, EU will give us billions.
Or the other option:
You don't get it, it doesn't matter what happens, even if we piss in our food, as long as Moscow doesn't get to, that means we won!
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PapaDragon wrote:Memory works both ways and Russia will certainly remember that their nominal ally expected them to fight and die for a territory that Armenians didn't even recognize while they were looking for a way to fuck Russia over in exchange for some pittance from Brussels
How precisely did Armenians fuck Russia over, what did they do?
Syrians, Abkhaz and Ossetians are loyal allies with good track record
So are Armenians. Armenia even sent mine-disposal experts to Syria under Russian command - and BTW this was under Pashinyan.
And there have never been any questions in regards to the Russian base there. Even when some Russian conscript ran berserk and killed an Armenian family.
Kurds are hostile swindling dickheads that hold no importance
They're mercs who worship the US & A but if Erdogan decides to stab Russia in the back again then certainly their importance to Russia will magnify. So too will the Armenian's importance. You catch my drift?
Russia better be confident in its relations with the Arabs, the Chinese, the Greeks (who I doubt have much enthusiasm over the end result here either), the French, the Iranians and so on if it wishes to make sure that the Turks stay onside. But Erdogan is a slippery character.
Turkey was allowed to gain a measure of influence on the count of it's good behavior and as a plug to keep EU influence out
Like I said before Turkey is a nuisance, EU is a problem
Oh I agree the crusading West is presently a much greater threat to Russia than Ankara is
But two things you should bear in mind
1. It's always possible for the Turks to get on board with the American and globalist crusade against Russia in the future (and against China) if they judge in their interests as doing so. Or more precisely, if Russia weakens because of some factor.
2. You still don't fuck your allies over, just because you want leverage with a frenemy (Turkey) against an outright rival (the EU).
Soviet natural ally, not Russian (we know how Armenians honored that commitment)
Actually the Soviets supported Azeri SSR territorial integrity when this all kicked off back in the late 80s and even conducted an operation in Karabakh to root Armenian guerillas out
It was Yeltsin's Russia in the 90s that switched support to Armenia as the beardies supported by Turkey and the West started incursions into the North Caucasus (and some of them were fighting on the Azeri side too).
And although I agree that the situation has changed since then, the Armenians bit off a little too much of Azeri territory to justify anyway, and Azerbaijan either way has not pursued an unfriendly policy to Moscow; that's still no excuse for just casually switching your favour from one side to the other.
Russia of course supported the Armenians to some degree this time around too and their loss of Shushi that cemented their own defeat was purely a result of their own commanders' mistakes, but Russia didn't blink an eye to dump them and secure their own interests to the maximum extent possible when that became clear.
And Russia didn't just throw them a lifeline, it saved their worthless ungrateful asses from extinction
Also that humiliation is well earned and long overdue
It also gave them their own republic; back when Russia came to the region Yerevan itself was an Iranian Azeri khanate.
But I see neither ingratitude on their own part (excepting only the brief period around the fall of the USSR when Armenian nationalists resented Moscow), nor some need to humiliate them over imagined slights or betrayals. These are all just excuses forwarded by Russian propagandists and paid 'intelligencia'
A smart approach that Armenia should learn from and learn well
Inviting a NATO military onto their soil?
Yes I guess that might be what some of them would now think they should have done
Good for them
And that's almost all they out of this
That and the conditional highway connection to the Caspian, allowing them to move forward with their 'Turkic Council' project and enthuse the growing pan-Turk idiots in Kazakhstan and Russia. Who are absolutely in no way any allies or well-wishers to Russia and cannot be.
The only relevant information
No I think you'll find that the world is not that simple and everything has far-reaching consequences.
As I pointed out back when Russia took the Crimea. Everything I predicted back then has come to pass more or less as well.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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2-face Joe Bidet shows his true colors:
Followed by this:
Joe Bidet is the real-life equivalent of 2 Face the Batman villain.
Followed by this:Joe Bidet is the real-life equivalent of 2 Face the Batman villain.
Backman- Posts : 2703
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magnumcromagnon wrote:Backman wrote:Interview of Aliyev 10 minutes in. Vice is back to its roots. Sending small women into far off war zones
My reaction when anyone posts Vice related content:
[
]
Yeah I agree with you there. Vice is cringe but there isn't that much footage of this war and it was a fairly long interview of the president
This sums up Vice news quite well:
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magnumcromagnon wrote:2-face Joe Bidet shows his true colors
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8195p775-2020-nagorno-karabakh-war#300824
To follow this post up:
Norwegian press: US ignored Armenia's call for help
The pro-Western orientation did not help Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan in his confrontation with Azerbaijan. Again I had to call for help from Russia. The Norwegian edition of Steigan writes about it.
When Nikol Pashinyan became head of the Armenian government, he did not hide his critical attitude towards "Putin's" Russia. Voices began to be heard in Yerevan in support of the withdrawal of the Russian military base from Gyumri. The US Embassy in Armenia is the second largest among all American embassies in the world. At the same time, Pashinyan hastened to get rid of many senior officers of the army and security forces, apparently suspecting them of pro-Russian sentiments.
However, while "democracy was being built" in Yerevan, their armed forces were being strengthened in Baku. Azerbaijan, using its oil revenues and assistance from Turkey, has managed to modernize its army quite well in several years. When it came to the armed confrontation in Karabakh, it turned out that it is much better equipped and armed than the Armenian armed forces. Of course, the fighting spirit of the defenders of Karabakh cannot be questioned, but one cannot advance far from the determination to fight to the end, and even the former boundaries cannot be defended. And so it happened: Shusha and a number of important regions were lost, Stepanakert itself was under threat.
However, the United States did not come to Pashinyan's aid, ignoring Armenia's calls for help, according to Norwegian journalists. There is no doubt that a harsh shout from Washington would have had an effect on Baku. But this did not happen: while formally condemning the military actions in Karabakh, in fact neither the United States nor "friendly" France did absolutely nothing to stop the rapid advance of Azerbaijani troops.
As a result, as the Norwegian edition writes, Nikol Pashinyan had no choice but to turn to Russia for help, to the very Putin whom he had criticized not so long ago.
The defeat in Karabakh became a tragedy for the Armenian people and an indelible stain on Pashinyan's political career. But it cannot be said that Azerbaijan and Turkey also won. Although Azerbaijan gained control over a part of the formerly ruled by the NKR regions, Putin did not give Ilham Aliyev a total victory in Karabakh. As a wise elder relative, he judged the quarrel between Yerevan and Baku and allowed the latter to take part of the territories, but did not allow the disappearance of Armenian Karabakh either. Now a 2000-strong Russian peacekeeping contingent will stand between the Armenians and Azerbaijanis, which means one thing - as long as the Russian troops remain, there will be no conflict in Karabakh.
It is unlikely that the appearance of Russian armed forces in Karabakh was part of Turkey's plans, but now nothing can be done. In fact, the NKR came under the control of Moscow, in addition to the military base in Gyumri, a contingent appeared in Karabakh. In fact, Turkey's plans to create a corridor to Azerbaijan and the Caspian Sea failed, which was to be expected. Actually, Recep Erdogan, with his rash policy in Syria, Libya and the Black Sea region, himself ran into a decisive response from Russia, and he received it.
A separate moment is the pro-Western forces in Armenia: they have learned a very good lesson from both Moscow and Washington. Russia showed Armenia that it is ready to help and be the guarantor of its security, but for this it is necessary to stop looking at the United States and the European Union.
In turn, the Americans have demonstrated in reality complete indifference to the Armenian people and their problems. Now only a mentally retarded person or an outspoken hireling in Armenia can call to be guided by the United States and the European Union. The war in Karabakh put an end to the question of who can help Armenia and who is completely indifferent to it.
https://en.topwar.ru/177069-norvezhskaja-pressa-ssha-proignorirovali-prizyv-armenii-o-pomoschi.html
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PapaDragon wrote:
Saker explained it in detail (ignore rants about Jews):
https://thesaker.is/understanding-the-outcome-of-the-war-for-nagorno-karabakh/
One of his best pieces of late
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kvs wrote:Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
There was no game. Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders.
The only reason there are Russian peacekeepers in NK is because Pussynian's regime finally folded when NK was about to be
fully lost and accepted Russian help. Russia had something over the Azeris due to the shooting down of its helicopter. It did not
have anything over Armenia to force any peacekeepers on it in a "gangster move".
People keep ignoring that Pussynian is a Soros project. So his regime would not have even asked Russia for ELINT.
quote " Pussynian never requested any help from Russia and Armenia did nothing to directly support the NK defenders. "
so why pasha visited Russia 3 times during the conflict? to visit rusian museums?
that will be like blaiming Assad for losing 75% of its land to isis and not asking russia help..
in short you are completely wrong dude.. stop talking of things you have no clue.
Just like ASSAD , Pasha asked many times putin for help and he said no , not now.. but they will not claim in public that putin is a coward and is scared to help them.. because that will damage their relations and so they need to help the image of Putin if they want to keep the door open for their help.. syria military visited moscow with money to buy planes.. mig-29sm .. and they returned with their hands empty.. Syria was asking s-300s to russia for many years.. and it wasn't until netanyahu shot down the russian intel plane and a dozen of russian officers die.. that putin change his policy and provide syria with s-300s and gave the migs they wanted.. but did not allowed syria to use
their s-300s against israel..
So you are wrong ,as simple as that.. why would pasha will not ask help russia when is losing the war? the answer.. he did it.. but your hero president told him no.. and like have been said many times.. armenia was not properly armed by Russia.. not with pasha in power and not with the previous prime minister either that was very pro russia.. People like you continue to ignore and fail to understand that foreign policy is not done based on just 1 person.. like pasha.. russia foreign policy is done based on the interest of 140 millions of people in russia ,but also the millions of armenians that live in that zone ,which are close to russia. So it is what is best for russian interest ,this is what putin usually does.. which is fine. for russia is not in the interest to risk
a war with turkey and azerbaijan now.. and this is why they avoid getting involved in the NK conflict..
and this will have been NO different policy regardless of who is the prime minister in armenia..
because like i said.. putin abandoned completely his major ally Assad in syria ,that was 100% pro russia and pro putin..for the first 4 years of the conflict.. when syria lost 75% of its territory and was just 1 or 2 weeks away of being damascus captured.. so they asked help.. but putin refused to go there, knowing the big consequences of facing a war with turkey and nato and israel. it was an unwinnable war.. thats how it looked , so once more russia did the same.. refused to directly help armenia to avoid again a war with turkey now and with azerbaijan too.. and he limited the help to armenia to some weapons but not direct airforce support. So your theory that is pasha to blame did not hold in water.. simply because the previous prime minister ALSO LOST armenian soldiers and lost territory too , to azerbaijan.. but putin created a cease of fire ,asking time for convincing armenians
to tell their people who lived there for many generations to abandon their homes..
so no wonder they will not go without a fight of their own homes.. will you abandon your house property and your entire family properties, their homes and live on the streets ,just because putin ask you to do it? hell no.. you will say fuck putin ,this is our land and our homes. and if Russia don't help them ,then they will find someone else who do it.
so stop blaming pasha.. the only one here to blame is putin foreign policy ,that put at risk
the lives of any nation ,he encourage to join the russian protection .. and they join russian world
thinking that russia will come to the rescue as soon their country start losing.. now they know ,it is not the case.. they lost land and they know it was a mistake to count on russia for their protection ,because lost land they do see as their land .. regardless if officially they don't declare it that way ,to not provoke azeris into an attack.
Truth is if armenia was under the protection of americans and nato , azerbaijan will have never to start that war.. because they know US sanctions will have completely destroyed azerbaijan economy and so a war for nagorno if later the economy is completely isolated from the world ,since russia will have also backed sanctions too , is not worth of it.. and armenians will be now perfectly justified to seek protection from americans.. is their interest of millions of armenians to stop azerbaijan and turkey from taking what they see for real their lands.. because they know azeris and turks will not stop until they create a land bridge between turkey and azerbaijan.
So is fine that putin defend the interest of russia as priority and armenia as secondary because they are allies.. thats fine.. what is wrong is that putin give false hopes to nations ,that they will come to their rescue if their land start being attacked. which is what happened , armenia lost people in their own land ,and armenia many of its air defenses including one s-300s inside armenia territory was destroyed and putin looked to the sides.. as if nothing happened and their own soldiers killed inside armenia and he did nothing.. so is putin's foreign policy the problem ,not pasha ,not armenia ,
putin needs to stop pretending that russia is a NATO like power and that can provide total protection to any nation outside of its borders. they can't.. so Putin needs to stop becoming the police of the world if russia is not capable to properly defend them. because many lives are lost and territories of their allies will be lost forever ,consequences of their believe that russia was going to fully help them.
im sure that if assad knew ,syria will be nearly all destroyed and will lose so much territory for making an alliance with russia and iran..that they will have changed completely their foreign policy..
and will have chosen instead to join the european union or perhaps US. to save their country from turkey aggression and israel.
and saker is wrong.. he is a total clueless dumb.
he was completely wrong in his ukraine war analysis and wrong in syria too with his denial that nato was fueling a religious war ,and that islam was the problem of the intensity of the violence ie.. terrorism.. and wrong again in nagorno karabah.. he is a failure analyst. and is amazing anyone take him seriously after so many fails. is more than likely if biden wins.. this "Cease of fire" will not hold ,
and nato will push ,for restarting the war and give russia another idlib war.. even erdogan warned putin of this and is exactly what will get.. not peace.. but military confrontations every week with russian hundreds of soldiers killed. don't expect any solution of the armenian problem ,until Russia use force and turkey and azerbaijan defeated in combat by russia.
Last edited by Vann7 on Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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flamming_python wrote:...How precisely did Armenians fuck Russia over, what did they do?...
EU and NATO
No need to act naive, you ain't Pasha
flamming_python wrote:...Russia better be confident in its relations with the Arabs, the Chinese, the Greeks (who I doubt have much enthusiasm over the end result here either), the French, the Iranians and so on if it wishes to make sure that the Turks stay onside....
That's Arab, Chinese, Greek, French and Iranian problem and they are free to deal with it
flamming_python wrote:...You still don't fuck your allies over, just because you want leverage with a frenemy (Turkey) against an outright rival (the EU)....
If your ally fucks you over first then you definitely should fuck them over in return
Fortunately for Armenians Russia opted to not fuck them over (and to continue guaranteeing their existence as well)
But they are on thin ice, no doubt about it
flamming_python wrote:...That and the conditional highway connection to the Caspian, allowing them to move forward with their 'Turkic Council' project and enthuse the growing pan-Turk idiots in Kazakhstan and Russia....
Highway which was Russian idea
Highway controlled by Russian FSB
Not Military but FSB, FSB outside Russian territory
Turks ain't got nothing
flamming_python wrote:...Inviting a NATO military onto their soil?
Yes I guess that might be what some of them would now think they should have done...
That's another thing Russia can help them with, just a single phone call and NATO Military will be on Armenian soil in less than an hour
In fact there's a NATO Military right next door hankering to park itself on Armenian soil forever and ever and ever...
All Armenians need to do is say the word and they will have so much NATO Military on their soil that they won't know what to do with it
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PapaDragon wrote:Yes I guess that might be what some of them would now think they should have done...
That's another thing Russia can help them with, just a single phone call and NATO Military will be on Armenian soil in less than an hour
In fact there's a NATO Military right next door hankering to park itself on Armenian soil forever and ever and ever...
All Armenians need to do is say the word and they will have so much NATO Military on their soil that they won't know what to do with it
I think 'military' and 'soil' are funny euphemisms for penis and sphincter.
Pussynian would definitely open as much 'soil' to take on as much NATO 'military' as his bodies of govt. can handle. 
Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vann7 wrote:kvs wrote:Maximmmm wrote:Yeah it’s quite evident by now that playing the waiting game was the correct decision. Doesn’t mean there won’t be difficulties ofc, but overall a good outcome. Armenians need to put on the big boy pants, but I doubt they will.
Truth is if armenia was under the protection of americans and nato , azerbaijan will have never to start that war..
How could someone possibly be this clueless ?
Greece (Nato) is arming up to face down Turkey (Nato) over Turkeys aggressions around Cyrus and oil exploration.
ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece will bolster its military with new arms, more personnel and by developing the country’s defense industry, the government said Monday, as a tense standoff with neighboring Turkey has led to concerns of open conflict between the two NATO allies.
Turkey was threatened with war by Egypt over Libya.
Turkey and France are at loggerheads.
Yet Vann7 is saying everything in Nagarno Karabak would be sunshine and lollypops if Azerbaijan was in Nato ! Countries dont need to be in Nato to get sanctioned by the US. Its actually a lot harder to level sanctions against nominal allies.
In December 2010, both countries (Turkey Azerbaijan) signed the range of treaties that makes each other a guarantor in case of an attack by foreign forces. So Azerbaijan is effectively in NATO already.
Last edited by Backman on Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
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Join date : 2012-01-30
PapaDragon wrote:flamming_python wrote:...How precisely did Armenians fuck Russia over, what did they do?...
EU and NATO
No need to act naive, you ain't Pasha
Oh yeah?
And what pray tell, was it exactly that Armenia deferred to the EU and NATO about in preference to Russia, in practice? (I'm not talking about a few protestors out of hundreds of thousands on Yerevan sq. with Russia occupier signs)
This is all a load of gunk
That's Arab, Chinese, Greek, French and Iranian problem and they are free to deal with it
Or maybe, with the gates to Central Asia now open, Erdogan will decide to patch up ties with the Gulf Arabs (if not Egypt and Syria), improve ties with Iran, and start courting Beijing.
The Greeks and French are honestly not that relevant anyway.
Then it may become a Russian problem
If your ally fucks you over first then you definitely should fuck them over in return
Except they didn't
Fortunately for Armenians Russia opted to not fuck them over (and to continue guaranteeing their existence as well)
But they are on thin ice, no doubt about it
Better to have Russia on your 'side' than not, but other countries which have problems with Turkey and far less ties with Russia than Armenia, will of course take note of how Russia wheels and deals with Turkey
Highway which was Russian idea
Highway controlled by Russian FSB
Not Military but FSB, FSB outside Russian territory
Turks ain't got nothing
It was something the Turks have been looking for for a long time, even if the precise formulation of it and it being at the whim of Russian border guards was Russia's idea.
But the honest truth is that it's not vital. Turkey already has a path to the Caspian even if it's longer - but it's in no way dependent on Moscow. That's through Georgia of course, which is a hardcore pro-Western country with an anti-Russian population whose ruling parties are not going anywhere no matter how poor the place is. They facilitate and kiss the ass of the Turks at every opportunity and maintain fine relations with Azerbaijan at Armenia's expense. There's a pipeline going through Georgia to seal the deal too.
The only way really to counter Turkish and Western entrance into the Caspian is to dilute Turkish influence in Azerbaijan, by tying the country more to Russia and Iran; for example with a high-speed railway that I was suggesting in another thread.
That's another thing Russia can help them with, just a single phone call and NATO Military will be on Armenian soil in less than an hour
In fact there's a NATO Military right next door hankering to park itself on Armenian soil forever and ever and ever...
All Armenians need to do is say the word and they will have so much NATO Military on their soil that they won't know what to do with it
Bit of a shit alliance if your ally threatens to throw you to the dogs if you don't follow their every whim.
And then you just abandon them anyway when you start to become inconvenienced.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
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Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
They r bringing more than needed just for peacekeeping: https://lenta.ru/news/2020/11/13/grad/
Nagorno-Karabakh war puts an end to USA's influence in the Caucasus
https://www.pravdareport.com/
US and France Play Catch-Up on Karabakh After Russia Deploys Troops
Fresh Crisis Brews in Armenia After Nagorno-Karabakh Peace DealAzerbaijan's Drones Owned the Battlefield in Nagorno-Karabakh – and Showed Future of Warfare
Armenians Protest Nagorno-Karabakh Truce Terms for a 3rd DayArmenia Arrests 10 Opposition Figures Over Peace Deal UnrestArmenia Says Airspace Still Open to Civil Aircraft
https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3114491.html
Nagorno-Karabakh war puts an end to USA's influence in the Caucasus
https://www.pravdareport.com/
US and France Play Catch-Up on Karabakh After Russia Deploys Troops
Fresh Crisis Brews in Armenia After Nagorno-Karabakh Peace DealAzerbaijan's Drones Owned the Battlefield in Nagorno-Karabakh – and Showed Future of WarfareArmenians Protest Nagorno-Karabakh Truce Terms for a 3rd Day
Armenia Arrests 10 Opposition Figures Over Peace Deal UnrestArmenia Says Airspace Still Open to Civil Aircrafthttps://regnum.ru/news/polit/3114491.html
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
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Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
flamming_python wrote:...Or maybe, with the gates to Central Asia now open, Erdogan...
Yes, yes, Erdogan is emperor, Turkey is superpower in the making, yadda yadda...
Seriously, isn't there a single commie on this planet with a functioning pair of testicles?
Who the fuck fears Turks (random nobodies notwithstanding)?
Did aliens land when I wasn't looking and converted Turkey into usable military power?
flamming_python wrote:...way really to counter Turkish and Western entrance into the Caspian is to dilute Turkish influence in Azerbaijan, by tying the country more to Russia and Iran...
Which is what this setup just did
Azerbaijan lost incentive to follow Turkish playbook because if they do they lose connection to Turkey, it may be a detail for Turks but it just became huge deal for Azeris
flamming_python wrote:...Bit of a shit alliance if your ally threatens to throw you to the dogs if you don't follow their every whim....
No, that's just how alliances work
Russia (USSR actually) developed stupid reputation for doing dumb shit for their "allies" free of charge and getting fucked in return without repercussions
You think USA's allies can even think about fucking around? They would be begging for Armenian treatment by the time Americans are done with them
Russia is finally fixing this fatal oversight
flamming_python wrote:...And then you just abandon them anyway when you start to become inconvenienced....
When THEY start to inconvenience YOU
And yes, not just abandond but hammer home a message
What this little escapade has proven is that as long as Russia chooses to put it's foot down Armenia will be untouchable for everyone, Azerbaijan and Turkey especially
So once Armenians are done having a pitty party they need to change their tampons and ask Russia to increase size of that military base they got there to the point where it will make Khmemimm AB in Syria look like tiny border guard barracks in comparison
And then to say: "Thank you and God bless Mother Russia!!!"
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littlerabbit- Posts : 235
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Guys, you should look at this...photos from Russian convoy around Shushi 
https://www.rferl.org/a/mass-casualties-of-nagorno-karabakh-conflict-around-shushi/30947028.html
https://www.rferl.org/a/mass-casualties-of-nagorno-karabakh-conflict-around-shushi/30947028.html
George1- Posts : 18510
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Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
explanation of Russian stance, if we look some time back
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7906p75-colour-revolutions-in-the-former-soviet-republics#230888
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7906p75-colour-revolutions-in-the-former-soviet-republics#230888
medo- Posts : 4343
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Location : Slovenia
This war now brings new realities. First we must know few facts. Pashinyan and his people betray Artzakh and surrender it to Turkey and did everything, that Artzakh will fall to Turkey. Armenian army by orders from pashinyan didn't fight in this war, they didn't even respond when Azerbaijan attack Armenian territory. Army of Artzakh fight alone together with some voluntiers, which succede to come to Artzakh against Azerbaijan, Turkey and ISIS. When they realize that Artzakh was betrayed, some old guard generals and ex president Kocharyan did everything to resque Artzakh and they bring enough voluntiers and weapons from Russia, that Artzakh army could defend Artzakh until Russia intervene. They succede and Artzakh lost only a small part of territory. Now Russian army is in Artzakh and they are also in Shushi, where Russia will build military base. Artzakh is now under Russian protection and with Russian army in Shushi Artzakh actually didn't lost Shushi. It will remain part of Artzakh, because Artzakh is now Russian protectorate.
In reality ARTZAKH WIN THIS WAR!!! Artzakh now doesn't belong neither to Armenia neither to Azerbaijan. Now it is free under Russian protection. What is more important, now it will be Russia, who will decide the status of Artzakh. There are two options. One is independent state under Russian protection, other is, that Artzakh become part of Russian Federation. Most probably Russia will organize referendum in Artzakh to finaly solve this question. Russia for sure will not take only part of Artzakh, but whole of Artzakh. This will end the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Artzakh army didn't surrender or capitulate. They defende their land and keep majority of their territory in their hands until war ended and Russian army enter inside. They succede to defend their homeland for 45 days, what is practicaly miracle considering circumstances and large superiority of enemy. One of important factors here is, that Artzakh air defense won the battle against enemy drones and enable ground forces to fight off all attacks. Yes drones won PR, but they didn't won the war. Azerbaijan and Turkey ended empty handed, Artzakh didn't fall and is now in Russian hands.
In reality ARTZAKH WIN THIS WAR!!! Artzakh now doesn't belong neither to Armenia neither to Azerbaijan. Now it is free under Russian protection. What is more important, now it will be Russia, who will decide the status of Artzakh. There are two options. One is independent state under Russian protection, other is, that Artzakh become part of Russian Federation. Most probably Russia will organize referendum in Artzakh to finaly solve this question. Russia for sure will not take only part of Artzakh, but whole of Artzakh. This will end the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Artzakh army didn't surrender or capitulate. They defende their land and keep majority of their territory in their hands until war ended and Russian army enter inside. They succede to defend their homeland for 45 days, what is practicaly miracle considering circumstances and large superiority of enemy. One of important factors here is, that Artzakh air defense won the battle against enemy drones and enable ground forces to fight off all attacks. Yes drones won PR, but they didn't won the war. Azerbaijan and Turkey ended empty handed, Artzakh didn't fall and is now in Russian hands.
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