2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

littlerabbit wrote:Guys, you should look at this...photos from Russian convoy around Shushi

https://www.rferl.org/a/mass-casualties-of-nagorno-karabakh-conflict-around-shushi/30947028.html

Yeah, that's heavy stuff

I noticed that throughout this whole war there have been just handful of cases of POWs on either side

Care to guess why?

These guys managed to get in the war while USSR still existed and was still fully functional

And I thought we in the Balkans go too big on ethnic hatred...

Shusha isn't under Armenian or Russian control- Azeri forces r there now, & ethnic Armenians r leaving the areas that will be under their control as per the latest agreement. This is a huge blow to all Armenians- it proves that they were good at shooting themselves in the foot & not capable to face the threats, even as they had plenty of time to prepare.

Five main mysteries of the Second Karabakh war

The end of the Second Karabakh War gave rise to many mysteries and conspiracy theories. Indeed, some of the circumstances of this conflict are extremely mysterious, or at least paradoxical from the point of view of conventional military logic. Apparently, the Armenian leadership itself provoked a political catastrophe.

Let us list exactly which mysteries raise the biggest questions and provoke the emergence of "conspiracy theories" in Armenia (and not only).

1. Why was no full-fledged mobilization carried out in Armenia, and no full-fledged military units were deployed to the conflict area?

Despite loud patriotic statements, no real mobilization was carried out in Armenia. The permanent number of the Armenian army - about 50 thousand people - was increased only by volunteers. While the conditions of hostilities demanded to increase the number of people defending Karabakh to at least 80-100 thousand people. At the same time, very soon the shortage of specialists (for example, artillery and missile defense systems) began to affect the front in the Armenian army. There was no one to replace those who left.

It is inexplicable for what reason Yerevan did not begin to carry out real mobilization. The Armenian leadership simply avoids talking on this topic. If there was a mobilization plan, no one tried to fulfill it. As a result, there was no rotation of servicemen on the first line, in some areas people were sitting in trenches for a month without changing. On the front line there were 18-20-year-old guys, and at some point young people who were not shot made up 80% of the personnel. The Karabakh detachments, made up of professionals and veterans, suffered heavy losses in the very first week, which there was no one and nothing to replace, since there were simply no reinforcements.

Volunteer units in Armenia were formed according to party lines. The scandal was caused by an attempt to form a separate detachment of the "Prosperous Armenia" party named after the oligarch Gagik Tsarukyan - now Pashinyan's main opponent. The two have been in conflict for over ten years. Now the prime minister openly calls Tsarukyan “the culprit of the fall of Shushi,” since his phantom squad allegedly was not enough at the front to win. These conflicts could have been avoided simply by having a mobilization plan and a desire to implement it.

The main military forces of Armenia did not move to Karabakh. But in order to relieve the tension created by the Azerbaijani UAVs, it was enough just to redeploy early detection radars to Goris. And one army corps would have been quite enough to cover the southern direction even at the stage when the Azerbaijanis languidly stomped in front of the first line of defense. The proper supply was not organized, and after a month of fighting this led to a shortage of missiles for missile defense systems and shells for cannon artillery. And without the support of artillery, the infantry can only die heroically.

All this borders on sabotage, although it can be partially explained by local slovenliness and unwillingness to weaken the defense of Armenia proper. The latter is a very controversial position and it looks like the Armenian leadership has simply abandoned Karabakh to its fate.

2. Why did the northern front behave so strangely?

In the north and north-east of Karabakh, in the Madagiz region, there was a large fortified area of ​​the Armenian defense, which included very combat-ready units. And they really put up serious resistance to the advancing Azerbaijani group and in the end actually stopped it (although they lost several positions and iconic villages).

But after that, the elite battalion "Yehnikner" suddenly retreated, although its commander managed to get the "Hero of Artsakh". Moreover, since October 3, neither Yekhnikner, nor any military unit in general from the northern front was withdrawn and was not transferred to the aid of the burning south. At the same time, the Azerbaijanis only once decided to imitate an offensive in the north again, clearly for distracting purposes. There was no need to keep up to 20 thousand people in the north.

The Karabakh leadership informally explains all this by the lack of resources. But now the “lack of resources” in Karabakh explains everything.

3. Why did the southern front collapse?

The fact that the Azerbaijanis were striking the main blow in the south, in the steppe zone, was already visible with the naked eye in the first few days of the war. Nevertheless, resources - human and technical - began to arrive on the southern front when this front was essentially gone. The steppe zone was lost, and the front stopped along the edge of the mountains from the Red Bazaar to Martuni. As a result, up to 30 thousand people have accumulated in this area, defending Karabakh. They were threatened with complete encirclement and death, which was one of the reasons for the signing of the ceasefire agreement. At the same time, before the occupation of Jabrayil, Azerbaijani troops advanced very slowly, disrupting their own pace of the offensive. This gave the Armenians a small, but still a head start in order to understand the situation and start relocating.

After the occupation of Jebrail, the front began to fall apart, and the advance of the Azerbaijanis sharply accelerated. The moment was lost.

For what reason did the Armenian command not decide to transfer additional resources to the southern front? This is another mystery.

4. Why did the Armenian side confine itself to only passive defense?

During the entire war, the Armenian side made only two attempts to counterattack against the forward units of Azerbaijanis who were running far ahead. Both times this happened opposite Lachin in a narrow gorge, with the extreme vulnerability of the Azerbaijani battalion-tactical group (BTG). Once even successful. But these operations boiled down simply to the massive delivery of MLRS strikes against enemy clusters. Operations to close the gorge and encircle the enemy in other sectors of the southern front suggested themselves. But not a single Armenian unit moved from its place. An amazing war in which one of the parties did not conduct a single offensive operation on the ground, limiting itself to only and exclusively passive defense.

A successful counterattack in the gorge in front of Lachin would grind so many Azerbaijani forces in the cauldron that they would not think about attacking Shusha for at least a couple of weeks. And later it was quite possible to destroy the Azerbaijani infantry in the Averatanots gorge. But for this it was necessary to strain.

There is no explanation as to why the Armenian side did not even try to counterattack or use other methods of the operational advantage that it repeatedly gained. The lack of resources can be endlessly referred to only in the last stages of hostilities, but passive defense has been a constant tactic from the very beginning of the war.

5. Why was Shusha surrendered?

The most sensitive and incomprehensible question. The first assault on the city by the Azerbaijani infantry was extremely unsuccessful. Then, the second column of Azerbaijanis was covered by an attack by the RZSO. With some effort and assistance from Armenia, the Azerbaijani group that had broken through to the city could be destroyed. Nevertheless, a decision was suddenly made to leave the city without a fight and not to make attempts to liberate it with a favorable operational-tactical situation that remained for another day.

It is believed that the decision to abandon Shushi was made by the NKR President Arayik Harutyunyan and the NKR Security Council Secretary General Samvel Babayan, a local legend. Now, in protest against the signing of the truce, he left his post and renounced the title of Hero of Artsakh. The Armenian YouTube channel Lurer (Novosti) published a recording of the negotiations between Babayan and Harutyunyan, from which it follows that General Babayan really assessed the possibility of recapturing Shusha even after she was abandoned, but painted the future prospects of resistance very gloomily.

Fragment of conversation (not literal translation): “Let's calculate the (combat) mission. We cover Shushi with twenty, thirty volleys of "Smerch". We kill everyone there. We take the city back. What's next? The state of the army and the civilian population does not allow waging war. They fought, took Shushi, then what? (…) We cannot fight with the NATO army, with the mercenaries, fully equipped ... Yesterday I tried to organize an operation with three battalions. We have four howitzers in total. If we are not provided with artillery, then how are you going to support the offensive or cut off its tails (the enemy - approx. LOOK)? (...) Today we must finally negotiate with Russia that we are handing over these territories and leaving. Or they help us.

Imagine that we have two Grads for the whole army today, a dozen howitzers for which we have no shells. "

To summarize, General Babayan believed that resistance was useless at this stage of hostilities. We must abandon the continuation of the war and either surrender, or ask for ten days for an organized exit of the local population and the 30 thousand soldiers of the southern front who are completely surrounded. As an alternative, it was proposed to urgently ask Russia for direct military assistance in the form of PMCs or volunteers, equipment and ammunition.

But all this does not change the question why a small group of Azerbaijani infantrymen without heavy equipment, which broke through to Shusha, was not destroyed before panic began to appear in the Armenian army. The retention of Shushi created a completely different architecture of political agreements for NKR and Armenia. If this decision is political, then who actually made it?

* * *

This list of mysteries of the second Karabakh war is far from complete. In addition, a lot of the same questions about preparation for war have accumulated to the Armenian leadership. This war was lost even before it began, precisely because of Yerevan's inaction or strange action.

The proceedings will continue for a long time. The situation in the region has changed so radically over these forty days that all old approaches to resolving the conflict and to its military component have died by themselves. And the new reality will require new solutions for Armenia. And it is not yet clear who will make these decisions.
Section: Wars

Why General Muradov was appointed Commander of the RF peacekeepers in Karabakh

Lieutenant General Rustam Muradov, appointed commander of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in Karabakh, has already met with representatives of both Azerbaijan and Armenia. What is interesting and famous for this military leader, why was he appointed to this post - and what was the significance of the candidate's ethnic origin and military rank?

As it should be in the army, any position of an officer or general is represented by the higher command. The commander of the peacekeeping contingent is generally a special position, and given the current specifics of the situation in the Karabakh conflict zone, it is not only military, but primarily political in nature.

The candidate was examined, as they say, under a magnifying glass. The General Staff introduced Rustam Muradov to the Minister of Defense, then Sergei Shoigu put the lens on the table to President (Supreme Commander-in-Chief) Vladimir Putin and expressed his proposals.

Muradov, who yesterday held the post of deputy commander of the Southern Military District, was immediately approved. He flew the first military transport aircraft from Rostov-on-Don (where the headquarters of the Southern Military District is located) to Yerevan, and from there he moved to Stepanakert, where the headquarters of the Russian peacekeepers is now located.

47-year-old Rustam Muradov has an impeccable career in the army, which makes it possible to call a former rural boy from Dagestan a "military bone" - a real professional. He is a graduate of the Kazan Suvorov Military School, where he entered as a schoolboy. Then he graduated with honors from the Leningrad Higher Combined Arms Command School and the Combined Arms Academy of the Armed Forces. Subsequently he graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff.

Muradov has gone all the steps of the army's career ladder - the commander of a platoon, company, battalion, regiment, brigade. Already in the rank of Major General (2012), he was appointed head of the 473rd Lisichansk District Military Center of the Central Military District (this is the former 44th training tank division). Muradov also served in the positions of the 1st Deputy Chief and Chief of the 41st Army, the Commander of the 2nd Guards Army, and from December 2018 he was appointed Deputy Commander of the Southern Military District, in which he remained until recently. On February 20, 2020, he was awarded the next military rank - lieutenant general.

Rustam Muradov skyrocketed to the highest levels of the military hierarchy. The first general's rank was at the age of 39. The case is not unique in the Russian army, but it is not an ordinary one either: such young generals in the RF Armed Forces can be counted on one hand. Lampasy Muradov did not sit in the headquarters' offices, but achieved with his military service - behind him two Chechen wars and an anti-terrorist operation in Syria, and on his chest, among other awards, are two Orders of Courage.

The high rank also mattered when Muradov was appointed commander of the Russian peacekeeping forces in Karabakh. It would seem that only a contingent of 1960 soldiers and officers, 90 armored personnel carriers, 380 units of automobile and special equipment, which the commander of the 15th separate motorized rifle brigade, Colonel Konstantin Nechaev, whose units constitute the main backbone of the peacekeepers, would also be subordinate. And then a whole lieutenant general was appointed to command them.

However, there is a nuance that is characteristic of the Caucasus in particular.

The same Azerbaijani Defense Minister Zakir Hasanov wears the shoulder straps of a colonel general, Armenian defense minister David Tonoyan is a civilian, but the head of the Armenian general staff Onik Gasparyan has the rank of colonel general. And the interests of the Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh should be represented by a person of equal or very close military rank. Here one can also recall the "general authority" Marat Kulakhmetov, who commanded the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in South Ossetia until 2008. Shoulder straps also mattered.

The choice when appointing Rustam Muradov to the post of commander of the Russian peacekeeping forces in Karabakh was also determined by his other experience. It is known that in 2016 he was the representative of Russia in the Joint Russian-Ukrainian Center for the Control and Coordination of Ceasefire and Stabilization of the Line of Delimitation of the Parties (JCCC) in Donbas. The tasks of the center included control over the termination of the use of all types of weapons, the exchange of prisoners of war, the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the line of contact, assistance to local authorities and civilians, and ensuring security during reconstruction work. Actually, this is what Muradov will have to do in Karabakh now.

Already in 2017, Rustam Muradov was sent to Syria as a military adviser. His mission there was far from peacekeeping, under his leadership a successful offensive on Deir ez-Zor took place, but he had experience in negotiating and establishing contacts with the local civilian population. After that business trip, General Muradov was awarded the title of Hero of Russia by decree of the President of Russia dated December 28, 2017 for courage and heroism displayed in the performance of military duty.

In general, no matter how you look at it, it's a very worthy candidate. There remained one fad related to his ethnic origin. The media in Baku hastened to publish the headlines: "Azerbaijani Muradov will command Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh." Like, it is clear whose interests he will follow to a greater extent. Then the word “Azerbaijani” was removed from the official websites, but questions remained.

“Nationality really matters in such situations,” said Leonid Ivashov, President of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, former head of the Main Directorate of International Military Cooperation of the RF Ministry of Defense. - Neither an ethnic Azeri, nor an Armenian should be appointed commander of the Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh. This did not happen, but it was important that he was a person who knew the Caucasus well, its mentality, its traditions and customs. There are many subtleties and nuances here, any careless step, any gesture or word can be misinterpreted.

I remember how in 1994 in the Gali region of Abkhazia, on the demarcation line, our peacekeepers brought a cistern of water for the residents, but they put it in one village, and in the neighboring one they were indignant, why not us? They also brought them a second one, I then advised to put water between the two villages, there the distance is small, so that they could follow it from both sides, communicate with each other, as it was before.

The commander of peacekeepers should not take sides or show sympathy for anyone.

At the same time, humanity is required from him, the ability to listen to people, especially women, given their Caucasian talkativeness. It will be necessary not only to facilitate the breeding of the warring parties, but also to help the civilian population returning to their lands. It is necessary to bring people together, even if yesterday they considered themselves enemies. It seems to me that it is Rustam Muradov who, as a native of the Caucasus, but at the same time a real Russian officer, will successfully cope with these tasks. "

With the nationality of Rustam Muradov, everything became clear - he is of Tabasaran origin, one of the indigenous peoples of Dagestan, who historically live on the southeastern slopes of the Greater Caucasus Range. Not an Azeri or an Armenian - a Russian general who was entrusted to establish peace in the Caucasus.

There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

https://twitter.com/StasSwanky/status/1327384003117191170

Regular wrote:There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on  roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

There was drone rockets and bombs landing on everyone's head. They probably havn't had the wherewithal to pick everyone up out of no mans land yet.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Shusha isn't under Armenian or Russian control-that will be under their control as per the latest agreement. This is a huge blow to all Armenians- it proves that they were t shooting themselves in the foo& not capable to face the threats, even as they had plenty of time to prepare.

The president was too busy letting the US embassy run his govt.

The Embassy of the United States of America to Armenia (Armenian: Հայաստանում ԱՄՆ-ի դեսպանատուն) is located adjacent to Lake Yerevan along the Yerevan-Etchmiadzin highway. The site occupies an area of 90,469 square meters (22 acres), and was the largest US Embassy in the world by area when it was completed in 2005

kvs wrote:

Regular wrote:There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on  roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

91170

Another link was posted to the same photos.   What you see is supposed to be Putin's fault and of course the fault of every single Russian citizen.

esters-just-removed-its-russia-friendly-prime-minister.html

[i

Wipe your own asses, retards.

One of the biggest US embassies in the world is in Armenia. And they are saying that Russia is occupying them ? It looks more like the US is occupying them to me.

franco wrote:Five main mysteries of the Second Karabakh war

The end of the Second Karabakh War gave rise to many mysteries and conspiracy theories.?[/b]

Fascinating stuff. The loss has been all chalked up to drones but it looks like there is far more to it than that

Did you copy/paste these piece ? Is there a link for it ? I'd like to share it with a couple people

Backman wrote:

franco wrote:Five main mysteries of the Second Karabakh war

The end of the Second Karabakh War gave rise to many mysteries and conspiracy theories.?[/b]

Fascinating stuff. The loss has been all chalked up to drones but it looks like there is far more to it than that

Did you copy/paste these piece ? Is there a link for it ? I'd like to share it with a couple people

Yes to copy/paste. Just went back and looked but unable to locate. I found this article and the one below it while searching through links from links of an original story on https://topwar.ru/ . Went back and checked out several stories but could not find links to either of these links. Some interesting items came up from the leaders of Armenia and Artsakh over the last 2 days and on twitter here https://twitter.com/301_AD . Sorry could not assist more.

PapaDragon wrote:

littlerabbit wrote:Guys, you should look at this...photos from Russian convoy around Shushi  

https://www.rferl.org/a/mass-casualties-of-nagorno-karabakh-conflict-around-shushi/30947028.html

Yeah, that's heavy stuff

I noticed that throughout this whole war there have been just handful of cases of POWs on either side

Care to guess why?

These guys managed to get in the war while USSR still existed and was still fully functional

And I thought we in the Balkans go too big on ethnic hatred...

Yeah but there's just Team A and Team B ain't there PD?

Heavy stuff.. you pussy. Imagine that on x1000 scale. Best leave the Machivellian bullshit to the politicians.

kvs wrote:

Regular wrote:There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on  roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

https://twitter.com/StasSwanky/status/1327384003117191170

Another link was posted to the same photos.   What you see is supposed to be Putin's fault and of course the fault of every single Russian citizen.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/armenias-protesters-just-removed-its-russia-friendly-prime-minister.html



Wipe your own asses, retards.

You posting that one photo again of some Soros retards while 99.9% of everyone else is just out there to protest against a corrupt set of oligarchs in power?

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:...Or maybe, with the gates to Central Asia now open, Erdogan...

Yes, yes, Erdogan is emperor, Turkey is superpower in the making, yadda yadda...

Seriously, isn't there a single commie on this planet with a functioning pair of testicles?

Who the fuck fears Turks (random nobodies notwithstanding)?

Did aliens land when I wasn't looking and converted Turkey into usable military power?

They are hardly a threat in the military sense

But they can cause problems inside Russia.

Nevertheless, on the whole I do I have to concede, that likely Turkey does understand the value of a good relationship with Moscow by now. We all saw how Erdogan ran like a bitch to NATO after he shot down the Russian plane, and also how the Western media was egging Russia on to crush his ass in Syria when they started to come to blows in Idlib.
I wouldn't say he's learned his lesson. But he has self-preservation instincts at the very least.

I'm not quite sure the Turks understand the value of a good relationship with Beijing yet though. Especially with that meddling involving the Uyghurs; loudmouth statements, taking part in a Western propaganda crusade, arming and organizing them in Syria. The Chinese may not be as understanding as Russia, if Turkey starts to expand influence into Central Asia

Azerbaijan lost incentive to follow Turkish playbook because if they do they lose connection to Turkey, it may be a detail for Turks but it just became huge deal for Azeris

On the contrary this all makes the Turks more indispensible to Azerbaijan, not less.

Russia will have to work with Iran on this problem.

No, that's just how alliances work

Russia (USSR actually) developed stupid reputation for doing dumb shit for their "allies" free of charge and getting fucked in return without repercussions

You think USA's allies can even think about fucking around? They would be begging for Armenian treatment by the time Americans are done with them

Russia is finally fixing this fatal oversight

Alliances certainly don't work on the principle of letting the wolves take a chunk out of your ally if they elect the wrong leader.

Pashinyan didn't do a quarter as much as Erdogan did, in terms of being unruly towards his military allies. Yet NATO hasn't abandoned him yet. Well other than letting him take the fall in Syria, but that was an ill-advised move of his own to move in Turkish troops to protect the West's abandoned beardies.

Syria and Russia is an example of a proper alliance. We don't tell the Syrians who their leader is, or impede on their sovereignty. The alliance, even if not a formal one, serves as a model - it increases the security of both parties; them against the West, and us against Islamist trash.

When THEY start to inconvenience YOU

And yes, not just abandond but hammer home a message

Good to know, maybe Russia will dump Serbia for some Albanians or something if the EU falters in the region anyway and its up for grabs.

What this little escapade has proven is that as long as Russia chooses to put it's foot down Armenia will be untouchable for everyone, Azerbaijan and Turkey especially

So once Armenians are done having a pitty party they need to change their tampons and ask Russia to increase size of that military base they got there to the point where it will make Khmemimm AB in Syria look like tiny border guard barracks in comparison

And then to say: "Thank you and God bless Mother Russia!!!"

That's all irrelevant, Russia is not willing to back them to that extent no matter how much they suck up to it.
And Russia will always leave them with something left to lose in Karabakh anyway, so that they would still need it.

It's a very cynical game.

kvs wrote:...
Wipe your own asses, retards.

Looks like Christmas came early in Caucasus

flamming_python wrote:...You posting that one photo again of some Soros retards while 99.9% of everyone else is just out there to protest against a corrupt set of oligarchs in power?...

If those 99,9% didn't notice that they have a massive problem right under their noses than we are taking about some deeper problems here

Even morons in Belarus slapped down these clowns when they showed up there

flamming_python wrote:...Yeah but there's just Team A and Team B ain't there PD?...

In geopolitics, yes of course

flamming_python wrote:...Heavy stuff.. you pussy. Imagine that on x1000 scale...

Ohhhh look at the tough guy here, tell me more about your warfare escapades

flamming_python wrote:...Good to know, maybe Russia will dump Serbia for some...

Kid sit down, we need to have The Talk...

PapaDragon wrote:
Looks like Christmas came early in Caucasus

Not a recent photo so nothing to do with Christmas

If those 99,9% didn't notice that they have a massive problem right under their noses than we are taking about some deeper problems here

They're not responsible for every banner held up by every idiot at a protest
Likely they though the same thing as I did when I saw those photos - a little out of place in a mass protest against govt corruption but OK whatever

Even morons in Belarus slapped down these clowns when they showed up there

That much is true. But mainly because the protests tried to install a Maidan regime on the fly and didn't have want to give Russians any excuse to interfere whatsoever

In geopolitics, yes of course

Not true either

Ohhhh look at the tough guy here, tell me more about your warfare escapades

You're the tough guy. Advocating ethnic cleansing and humiliation, teaching lessons

But someone actually puts in practice what you preach, and you're all "oh tHe hUMaNitY"

This is what you say you want. So develop a gut for it.

flamming_python wrote:...Advocating ethnic cleansing...

I did?

Care to back up that little BS?

I'm waiting

flamming_python wrote:

kvs wrote:

Regular wrote:There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on  roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

191170

Another link was posted to the same photos.   What you see is supposed to be Putin's fault and of course the fault of every single Russian citizen.


Wipe your own asses, retards.

You posting that one photo again of some Soros retards while 99.9% of everyone else is just out there to protest against a corrupt set of oligarchs in power?

Every overthrow or devolution in this case, is started by a well organized minority. And the majority apathetic and don't have a clue what is going on most of the time.

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:...Advocating ethnic cleansing...

I did?

Care to back up that little BS?

I'm waiting

Returning land to Azerbaijan in these conditions is tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Azeris don’t miss an oportunity to show what they really mean.

The real question is, what was happening in 26 years to dolce this situation...without getting at this point.

Not much.

flamming_python wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:...Or maybe, with the gates to Central Asia now open, Erdogan...

Yes, yes, Erdogan is emperor, Turkey is superpower in the making, yadda yadda...

Seriously, isn't there a single commie on this planet with a functioning pair of testicles?

Who the fuck fears Turks (random nobodies notwithstanding)?

Did aliens land when I wasn't looking and converted Turkey into usable military power?

They are hardly a threat in the military sense

But they can cause problems inside Russia.

Nevertheless, on the whole I do I have to concede, that likely Turkey does understand the value of a good relationship with Moscow by now. We all saw how Erdogan ran like a bitch to NATO after he shot down the Russian plane, and also how the Western media was egging Russia on to crush his ass in Syria when they started to come to blows in Idlib.
I wouldn't say he's learned his lesson. But he has self-preservation instincts at the very least.

I'm not quite sure the Turks understand the value of a good relationship with Beijing yet though. Especially with that meddling involving the Uyghurs; loudmouth statements, taking part in a Western propaganda crusade, arming and organizing them in Syria. The Chinese may not be as understanding as Russia, if Turkey starts to expand influence into Central Asia

Azerbaijan lost incentive to follow Turkish playbook because if they do they lose connection to Turkey, it may be a detail for Turks but it just became huge deal for Azeris

On the contrary this all makes the Turks more indispensible to Azerbaijan, not less.

Russia will have to work with Iran on this problem.

No, that's just how alliances work

Russia (USSR actually) developed stupid reputation for doing dumb shit for their "allies" free of charge and getting fucked in return without repercussions

You think USA's allies can even think about fucking around? They would be begging for Armenian treatment by the time Americans are done with them

Russia is finally fixing this fatal oversight

Alliances certainly don't work on the principle of letting the wolves take a chunk out of your ally if they elect the wrong leader.

Pashinyan didn't do a quarter as much as Erdogan did, in terms of being unruly towards his military allies. Yet NATO hasn't abandoned him yet. Well other than letting him take the fall in Syria, but that was an ill-advised move of his own to move in Turkish troops to protect the West's abandoned beardies.

Syria and Russia is an example of a proper alliance. We don't tell the Syrians who their leader is, or impede on their sovereignty. The alliance, even if not a formal one, serves as a model - it increases the security of both parties; them against the West, and us against Islamist trash.

When THEY start to inconvenience YOU

And yes, not just abandond but hammer home a message

Good to know, maybe Russia will dump Serbia for some Albanians or something if the EU falters in the region anyway and its up for grabs.

What this little escapade has proven is that as long as Russia chooses to put it's foot down Armenia will be untouchable for everyone, Azerbaijan and Turkey especially

So once Armenians are done having a pitty party they need to change their tampons and ask Russia to increase size of that military base they got there to the point where it will make Khmemimm AB in Syria look like tiny border guard barracks in comparison

And then to say: "Thank you and God bless Mother Russia!!!"

That's all irrelevant, Russia is not willing to back them to that extent no matter how much they suck up to it.
And Russia will always leave them with something left to lose in Karabakh anyway, so that they would still need it.

It's a very cynical game.

Russia already had the biggest air force of the region in Erebuni. This why this shit of expanding the allotement in Armenia is weak sauce. I really fear Russia let Turkey do its show to check its own fundamentals in warfare.

Regular wrote:There are already pictures from Russian peacekeepers

They are very graphic.. Armenians didn't even collect their dead.. and they really got massacred, it's not the first pictures of Armenian soldiers piled up on roadside that were posted..
There was one week ago after the drones hunted them down..

https://twitter.com/StasSwanky/status/1327384003117191170

They went in like fucking headless chicken to Shusha. Anna guys saved themselves by just looking at the side of the road.

A lot of this is due to total lack of military basics.

franco wrote:

Backman wrote:

franco wrote:Five main mysteries of the Second Karabakh war

The end of the Second Karabakh War gave rise to many mysteries and conspiracy theories.?[/b]

Fascinating stuff. The loss has been all chalked up to drones but it looks like there is far more to it than that

Did you copy/paste these piece ? Is there a link for it ? I'd like to share it with a couple people

Yes to copy/paste. Just went back and looked but unable to locate. I found this article and the one below it while searching through links from links of an original story on https://topwar.ru/ . Went back and checked out several stories but could not find links to either of these links. Some interesting items came up from the leaders of Armenia and  Artsakh over the last 2 days and on twitter here https://twitter.com/301_AD .  Sorry could not assist more.

A good article from someone knowing those stuff.

The original is here.

https://vz.ru/world/2020/11/12/1070326.html


The problem, as said more times, has been a growing numerical and force concentration overmatch on the ground in favour of Azerbaijani forces that only partially the small and badly equipped self-proclaimed Republic of Arksath's forces could counterbalance thanks to reiforced defensive positions and posture.

Committing even something like 20% of Armenian ground forces against the attacking Azerbaijan forces on the southern NK sector, while those was already stretched out and weakened by the slow attrition against the Arksath fortified positions (Azerbajani forces have suffered huge losses in equipment and personel that strategic success will probably aid to put in second plane) it would have been possible to easily overturn the entire dynamics of the conflict in that difficult area and probably insulate in a big cauldron all the Azeri troops placed near Sushi.

But, as already said in post 698, that action would have lead to a situation much worse for Armenia ,because Turkey would have gained the legal ground to directly intervene in the conflict (after formal request by Azerbaijan) being object of a foreign aggression in its interbnationally recognized territory and Armenia would have lost the Federation's coverage of its safety being legally the offending side in the war.

Taking that into consideration some apparent "mysteries" of this conflict appear much less strange.

Columns of Russian peacekeepers in Nagorno-Karabakh are accompanied by Russian army aviation helicopters:

A lot of BTR-82A´s