Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

Some more/higher res Gorshkov in Vladivostok from Balancer user Johnkey

Isos wrote:

Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

In terms of fire power Gorshkov is equal to 1 udaloy plus 1 sov with its 16 cells and 120km anti aur redut. Paket nk are good defences.

But interms of ASW it lacks the bigger sonar and the 2nd ka-27 of udaloy.

if needed they could do a version of 22350M optimized for ASW with 2 helicopters and a bigger sonar, sacrificing something else. The Italians and French did that with their fremm frigates, building them in two versions, one multipurpose and one more specialized in antisub work.

The sonar of Udaloy was developed in the 70´s. The sonar of Gorshkov in the 2000´s. Why shouldn´t the smaller bow sonar of Gorshkov not be as good as that of Udaloy?

Hole wrote:The sonar of Udaloy was developed in the 70´s. The sonar of Gorshkov in the 2000´s. Why shouldn´t the smaller bow sonar of Gorshkov not be as good as that of Udaloy?

Subs also evolved and became quiter. Bigger somar are still better than smaller.

It is better than 70s Udaloy's radar but not than a modern radar of same size as Udaloy's.

Isos wrote:
You wanted 12 nuclear cruisers last week. Did my "numbers matters" worked on you ?

I said 4-6 nuclear Leaders.  We would never afford 12. I think Super Gorshkov is the reality and Leader is the wishful thinking.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

MiamiMachineShop wrote:12 is a good number, there were 17 Sovremmenys in service, 12 22350M with 6 22350 is 18 ships, so Sov will be replaced fully. 22350/M will perform same blue water tasks. Excellent news. This means 20380 is necessary and fulfills adequate role that is needed. Building more 22350 did not mean they would have to cancel 20380 as many here continually suggested.

Well, in Soviet times they had also the Udaloys antisub destroyers and many krivak frigates.

Of course all those ships  do not.need to by replaced 1 vs 1, but 20380s cannot replace the udaloys...

Edit:

I.did not say that they.need to cancel 22380 to produce 22350s, but that if they are building both of.them at the same shipyard, building more large corvettes would delay the frigates produced by severnaya verf.


It would be different if 22380 would be produced by other shipyards, of course, and if pella could produce them it would be ideal. They are however probably too big for.the smaller shipyards like Pella and more (feodosia).
The other larger shipyards in west of the country that produce warships (yantar and zaliv) are already working at full capacity.

They won't be replace 1 v 1, but will be close

20380/22800/Buyan is replacing tarantul, grisha, nanuchka, parchim, and yet many of these will be upgraded and kept in service.

22350 is replacing Sov. Udaloy will not be replaced until 2030, 5 will be upgraded with angled launchers for Uran, and VLS will be installed for Kalibr. Of Udaloy 15 served, 9 remain. They are in good condition, and will receive upgrades. Some more 22350 can take the place of Udaloys which were decommissioned. Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are receiving upgrades.

2 lider + 2 kirov is enough

then 2 carriers

George1 wrote:

"In all, 12 frigates of this class are planned to be manufactured, with 11 out of them to be commissioned to the customer within the frames of the new state arms procurement program," the source added.

What this means? 1 commissioned until 2027, 12 until 2030?(if it's 2023-2030 the new program)
Sounds unrealistic. Don't understand what the source means.

Vladimir is right Nuke Destroyers ? for what ? …. total waste of money … to me a total wanker …. nuke carriers …. a total wank

interesting thing I read was "super Gorshkov" has a big increase in displacement

sounds like the 20386 …..

somewhere I read the geeks at the Naval research lab said they have found a new hull form that will allow a bigger displacement for the same size drive system to run it … Krylov ?

something has happened …. for sure ….
some hull breakthrough has happened …. and as I've said a few times before on earlier posts. ….
everyone should be looking at the 20386 …. .that thing is the real future of the Russian surface fleet

forget all this crap about carriers and destroyers …. and nuke power
its a monumental wank ….

I wouldn't waste 1 cent/ruble on a nuke surface fleet …

If Russia wants any say economically or politically or militarily and if it wants a say in how it grows economically then it needs global reach and that means large surface ships and aircraft carriers to protect them.

If they are only going to have a couple of them, they might as well be nuke propelled, it makes little sense to try to save a small amount of money and limit the top speed of your carrier groups because while the big ships are all nukes and can run at top speed for years if needed their carrier is conventionally powered and slow.

The time frame they are talking about for the 7K ton improved Gorshkovs and the amount of time it would take to make the new 20K ton nuke destroyers they are also talking about I would expect them all to be nuclear electric drive vessels. By separating the NPP from the propulsion you can use NPPs like batteries and they can be replaceable... making refuelling the NPP super easy... a case of simply replacing the battery.

https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/4-5-768x576.jpg
This is how the real naval power is created. 15 destroyers at a time under construction. Russia will build 12 Gorshkovs M for the next 20 years.

Arrow wrote: https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/4-5-768x576.jpg
This is how the real naval power is created. 15 destroyers at a time under construction. Russia will build 12 Gorshkovs M for the next 20 years.

Russia is currently building 4 22350 frigates (their capabilities, even with smaller size, are comparable to those of type 052D destroyers).

The capabilities of type 055 destroyers will be more similar to 22350M than to the lider class or the nakhimov cruiser.

Concerning the type 54A frigates, they are not bad ships, but a bit inferior to grigorovich class. The issue is that they were able to build a lot of them in a relatively short time, while Russia has only 3 of them.

Russia does not need an oversized navy for which would not have the time to train the crews either.

Anyway China benefited incredibly by the shipbuilding infrastructure realized in the last 30 years that made them one of the leaders in civil shipbuilding.

Russia went in the opposite direction for many years.

As China was not able to build warships at this pace and quality.in the 90s, Russia will need more time to get there.

All.the investment will be very important, anyway, because at the moment the vast majority of (civilian) ships (except icebreakers of course) build for Russia are produced abroad.

China is supposed to have a larger navy than Russia.

China is very dependent on trade. Without it, the country would literally starve to death and be forced to use horses for transport because their natural resources just do not match their humongous population. The Navy they are building is not done just so morons like Arrow can masturbate to it. It actually has a purpose and coincides with what their nation needs to survive. This obsession for hurr durr Naval might durr is nothing but fanboi and ego-stroking.

Russia is a bit more on the self-sustainable side. If every nation in the world were to turn to a North Korea, China and India would probably be the very first to collapse aside from tiny nation states like Singapore.

This is just one of many reasons why Russia shouldn't really rush a blue water navy. Russia just doesn't have enough assets/infrastructures to protect way beyond it's shores. It is also not very dependent on the natural resources of other Nations like France because it has a lot of it's own.

eir capabilities, even with smaller size, are comparable to those of type 052D destroyers). wrote:

Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.

Arrow wrote:

Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.

Edited

the first 4 gorshkov frigates have better sensors and radars than type 052D and 48 VLS (16 UKSK + 32 Redut).
From the 5th ship they will have 56 VLS (24 UKSK +32 redut)

Furthermore, the Russians have more experience with both SAMs and cruise missiles, and better weapons.

What most people tend to forget is that Russia is surrounded by smaller seas. Smaller ships are better suited for this areas. Also land-based missiles and aircraft have a large impact in the Baltics, Black Sea, Sea of Okhotsk, Barents Sea and so on.

Another important point: through to its location in the (more or less) core of Eurasia Russia doesn´t need a lot of big ships, because the endurance of small ships is more then enough to reach most flashpoints of today.

Amiland needs big ships because it is in the midst of nowhere. A big ocean to the right, another to the left. It takes them a few days to reach anything.

China has only one ocean on its shore, but two thirds of all Chinese live close to the coastline. That´s why the Navy is there No. 1 priority. Plus all this small islands in the South China Sea.

Tingsay wrote:China is supposed to have a larger navy than Russia.

China is very dependent on trade. Without it, the country would literally starve to death and be forced to use horses for transport because their natural resources just do not match their humongous population. The Navy they are building is not done just so morons like Arrow can masturbate to it. It actually has a purpose and coincides with what their nation needs to survive. This obsession for hurr durr Naval might durr is nothing but fanboi and ego-stroking.

Russia is a bit more on the self-sustainable side. If every nation in the world were to turn to a North Korea, China and India would probably be the very first to collapse aside from tiny nation states like Singapore.

This is just one of many reasons why Russia shouldn't really rush a blue water navy. Russia just doesn't have enough assets/infrastructures to protect way beyond it's shores. It is also not very dependent on the natural resources of other Nations like France because it has a lot of it's own.

You will refrain from personal attacks and insults to forum members.

Now, if the Russian navy was ever to face off against the PLAN we would have two advantages Our AShMs are vastly superior to the Chinese. Not only are they supersonic but they greatly outrange them. The listed figures of Chinese AShMs are actually quite fake. The reason is that China uses license produced 1st gen Microturbos used on the first gen Exocets. It is possible to extend the range by making a bigger missile but it still faces the law of diminishing returns. France never exported the engines used in Block 3 Exocet much less Scalp that give it greater range with more efficient engines. It is an export controlled technology China would never get. Another factor would be reliability, as the Indonesian president was humiliated during a navy demonstration both Chinese missiles fired failed to hit their targets.

The second and most clear advantage is our submarines. Our nuclear submarines are vastly more stealthy than Chinese that are loud enough to alter the migration patterns of dolphins. Any navy with quiet nuke subs could put PLAN at the bottom of the ocean in days. Their ASW capabilities are totally inadequate to the task.

In order for PLAN to threaten a carrier strike group they would have to get fairly close, so close they would be within range of Exocet Blk 3. The French and American carriers have buddy refueling capability and can operate from the 2nd island chain leaving very few mainland aircraft able to reach them. Only the operators of F-35B like the British would be unable to operate that far and would be subject to mass attacks by Chinese aircraft within the 1st island chain. When the Chinese carrier battle group goes out to meet them, they would have no viable aircraft to fly from it but helicopters as the J-15 is a complete failure.

MiamiMachineShop wrote:...They won't be replace 1 v 1, but will be close

20380/22800/Buyan is replacing tarantul, grisha, nanuchka, parchim, and yet many of these will be upgraded and kept in service.

22350 is replacing Sov. Udaloy will not be replaced until 2030, 5 will be upgraded with angled launchers for Uran, and VLS will be installed for Kalibr. Of Udaloy 15 served, 9 remain. They are in good condition, and will receive upgrades. Some more 22350 can take the place of Udaloys which were decommissioned. Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are receiving upgrades.

2 lider + 2 kirov is enough

.....

Construction lineup should be:

- Karakurts for tight areas and padding, replaces everything you listed. Cheap, fast and useful.

- Bykov offshore patrol ships for precisely what their name says, they need less than dozen anyway so this should be quick. If Coast Guard keeps having problems with engines for Rubins then just keep making Bykovs for Coast Guard, same thing more or less.

- Ivan Gren for transport, keep making them until they replace every single one of Ropuchas and Alligators 1 for 1.

- Derzkii/Mercury for littoral zone and before anyone says it, no they are not under-armed, they are more than well armed for task they are designed for, they are flexible and if Navy wants to play in blue water with frigates they will need something to hold the fort back home even more. And I am sure that those new 100m production halls in Pella can deal with several meters of metal sticking out. Fishing boats already stick out. Move production there.

- Standard Gorshkov should stay in production alongside bigger ships, they are both useful and will complement other ships efficiently.

- Super Gorshkov instead of Lider for heavy work, if they have this one they don't need Liders especially if they would only build two like you suggest. Too much hassle for too few boats.



For every one of these ships price will keep falling the more of them get made, just compare prices of first and last Steregushi.

That's about it, keep it simple. Especially if they are so hell bent on getting those carriers.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Arrow wrote:

Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.

Edited

the first 4 gorshkov frigates have better sensors and radars than type 052D and 48 VLS (16 UKSK + 32 Redut).
From the 5th ship they will have 56 VLS (24 UKSK +32 redut)

Furthermore, the Russians have more experience with both SAMs and cruise missiles, and better weapons.

The difference is that by the time Russia has finshed building the first 6 gorshkov China will have commissioned ~20 52D destroyers and 6-8 55 destroyers. And by 2025 China probably will have developted the next generation destroyers to replace the older types built in the 1990s and early 00s.

55 destroyer has 112 VLS

Arrow wrote:55 destroyer has 112 VLS

gorshkov M will have probably 96 VLS (48 UKSK + 48 redut)

Lider much more than that.

Nakhimov will.have 176 large VLS (80UKSK + 96 S300/S400) + 128 smaller Tor cells (unless these will be replaced by redut

Is not known whether the Leader will ever in service. And when it will service, maybe it will be after 2040. The first Gorshkov M will be in 2027.

Uhmm... we don't know the full load out of the Gorshkov-M yet Rodion, if models are to be believed it would most likely also have S-400s.
But nothing's confirmed yet.

All we know is the next batch of Gorshkov will have 24 UKSKs instead of 16.

As for Lider, don't expected that ship to even enter construction until after 2025, if ever.

AlfaT8 wrote:Uhmm... we don't know the full load out of the Gorshkov-M yet Rodion, if models are to be believed it would most likely also have S-400s.
But nothing's confirmed yet.

All we know is the next batch of Gorshkov will have 24 UKSKs instead of 16.

As for Lider, don't expected that ship to even enter construction until after 2025, if ever.

It is not clear, they could build it at Baltiskiy Zavod, if they have enough capacity and resources at the plant. It was the same plant that built also the Kirov class Battlecruisers.

At the moment.they are building there the new artika class nuclear icebreakers (3 vessels, the latest of the 3 should be delivered in 2022 but they could.extend the serie) and probably plan also to build additional large diesel class icebreakers project 22600 (the first of which.is being fitted out at admiralty shipyard).

If so they could probably start building liders there in 2022/2023, unless they decide to build them at Zvezda or at Severnaya Verf post modernisation (severnaya verf is however indicated as possible builder of all russia navy ships above 2000 tons except aircraft carriers, but inclusive of large LHDs, so they probably need to decide which classes they want to prioritize).

Arrow wrote:....
First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.

Chincom subs are trash, stop chugging commie bodily fluids

As for ships, take a look at the list of places China plans on going to: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam

All require ships to take out and most have huge number of ships and subs themselves

Take a look at the map: China is parked right in the Pacific and completely exposed, Russia has two glorified ponds, one reflective pool, one nearly empty Pacific beach where nobody can do anything without getting erased and one giant frozen wasteland up North

Chinese and Russian surface fleet requirements are nowhere near the same level

Arrow wrote:First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.

15 052Ds? Since 2014 China has commissioned 10 vessels with a further 7 in sea trails or in construction. By 2030 the number should easily be 20-25 ships.

Also they have launched 4 type 055 destroyers with 1 commissioned since 2017. By 2030 they should have 10-15 active ships.