Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

OK well

Let's just wait instead then for the obligatory wall of text from Vann7 about the Moon landing conspiracy and COVID-19

Hopefully the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. Fingers crossed.

In before PapaDragon comes in and says that the Russian Navy is a joke, Russia is a joke and there needs to be at least 80 of the Admiral Gorshkov class

They are frigates... so really not for use away from Russian shores much so 24-36 maybe split across the fleets... they would be OK in the Baltic Sea and Med...

Ideally, they should get 30~40 Gorshkovs, 10~20 Super Gorshkovs and 3~5 Liders.

24-36 Frigates, 18-24 Destroyers, and 4 to 8 Cruisers... but the Destroyers will be bigger and heavier than the cold war destroyers they replace and the Cruisers will be rather lighter than the cold war cruisers they replace...

They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.

ultimatewarrior wrote:I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.

Frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" completed state tests

The first serial frigate" Admiral of the Navy Kasatonov "of project 22350, having completed the marine part of state tests, returned to the Severnaya Verf. During June, the ship will undergo an audit, after which it will be transferred to the Navy

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8667471

Ask more, it's working

dino00 wrote:

ultimatewarrior wrote:I would be satisfied if the second Admiral Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year. For decades Russian navy only has 1 Admiral Gorshkov class frigate which is the first ship called Admrial Gorshkov.

Frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" completed state tests

The first serial frigate" Admiral of the Navy Kasatonov "of project 22350, having completed the marine part of state tests, returned to the Severnaya Verf. During June, the ship will undergo an audit, after which it will be transferred to the Navy

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8667471

Ask more, it's working

It's been doing sea trials for years and never commissioned.

I think the slow build of the Gorshkov class is due to several factors, of course the engine issue was the biggest one, but the complex system and also the advent of new generation missiles changes the needs. Warships are getting smaller as missiles get more deadly. Battleships died because of aircraft but also because even the most heavily armoured battleship could not survive more then a few direct hits from primary guns. What warship could be operational after a hit by a single Tsirkon? I would say at the VERY best it can limp home with half its compliment killed or injured and probably be scrapped. So small deadly ships with these weapons are now becoming a better bet. Of course sea handing is an issue. I think radar power will be solved or has been.. Drones will provide aviation. And ...eventually subersible hulls will be common.

Isos wrote:They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

RUSSIA Navy Admiral Kasatonov frigate Project 22350 test fires anti torpedo during acceptance trials
June News 2020 Navy Naval Maritime Defense Industry

Posted On Friday, 05 June 2020 04:45
The Admiral Kasatonov frigate of project 22350 fired an anti-torpedo at the final stage of acceptance trials, the Russian Defense Ministry said, on June 4, 2020.  Information released by TASS Russian press agency.


Russian Navy Admiral Kasatonov frigate of project 22350.

“The crew and industry representatives trained defense by engaging an anti-torpedo from Paket antisubmarine complex in the Baltic Sea,” it said. The Alexin small antisubmarine ship attacked the frigate with a training torpedo. The Admiral Kasatonov repelled the attack.

Link for the Article
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/june/8539-russian-navy-admiral-kasatonov-frigate-project-22350-anti-torpedo.html

They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

There is the issue of five distinct fleets that could use ships so any talk of x number of ships needed needs to take into account that not all the fleets require all the types of ships... I am sure you would agree a cruiser on the Caspian sea is a bit of overkill...

So for four fleets then any or all of the ships could be considered, but honestly the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet will have Cruisers and aircraft carriers and helicopter carriers and the Baltic and Black Sea fleet will have smaller vessels most likely.

The point is that we are talking essentially about one type of Frigate and one type of Destroyer and one type of Cruiser, but in terms of capability it is easier to make one all purpose multirole cruiser because there is room to fit everything you might want or need, while smaller ships struggle to fit in a variety of weapons and sensors... on a corvette it is even more difficult.

Things like multipurpose weapons like large calibre guns and of course vertical launch unified missile launchers for cruise missiles (UKSK) and for SAMs (Redut and Shtil-1 and naval TOR) makes things easier but for a small ship like a corvette the ability to fit decent radar and sonar equipment becomes harder.

I would suggest that while all 5 fleets could use Corvettes only four would need Frigates and Destroyers and probably two would need Cruisers and Carriers...

GarryB wrote: Cruisers will be rather lighter than the cold war cruisers they replace...

That is a rather silly assumption to make. What would the point of making a slightly better destroyer class and calling it a cruiser, to pretend you navy is greater than it actually is?.

Future missile cruisers will likely be the most versatile ships in the Russian navy, possibly using having a few larger VLS tubes to allow for the use of navalized IRBMs and taller masts with the best radars available.

They already have a radar that can see over the horizon, mounting that on a missile cruisers would potentially allow for engaging enemy ships at the maximum range of missiles.

That is a rather silly assumption to make. What would the point of making a slightly better destroyer class and calling it a cruiser, to pretend you navy is greater than it actually is?.

There is no point in making some super cruiser that is 30K ton and has 1,000 tubes for vertical launch missiles... not only is it not very practical.... it would be too expensive to keep those tubes full all the time.

Making a cruiser that has much more firepower than a Kirov but weighs 18-20K ton makes more sense... make it fully nuclear powered so no speed or range limits and a much more compact propulsion system and then use the space efficiently... modern AESA arrays and EO systems and Sonar arrays in the nose and the sides and to be dragged behind in a variable depth sonar array... lots of USUK-M tubes and a nice big gun mount and space for 3-4 helicopters and drones.

The unification of UKSK launchers and Redut should allow flexibility though in shallow areas of the hull where S-300 and S-400 missiles wont fit you could load S-350 and TOR-M3 type missiles in vertical tubes as well... in no sense would it be considered under armed and of course some sort of crane system that would allow it to reload its vertical launch tubes and guns while under way would mean it can maintain its performance even in the unlikely event of having to attack a few countries...

Future missile cruisers will likely be the most versatile ships in the Russian navy, possibly using having a few larger VLS tubes to allow for the use of navalized IRBMs and taller masts with the best radars available.

Even the most crappiest Airship on a 2km tether with fibre optic cables and power lines so the airship can scan and share information with the ship it is operating above without needing a datalink broadcast is better than the tallest ship mast... just the antenna size alone you could fit in an airship means no place to hide for enemy aerial targets even smaller than insect size because there are not that many insects flying over sea water... it would just be birds...

They already have a radar that can see over the horizon, mounting that on a missile cruisers would potentially allow for engaging enemy ships at the maximum range of missiles.

The radars the cruisers will carry just to use the S-500 will likely have enough range to make you happy... and to shoot down satellites in orbit...

GarryB wrote:

They have 3-4 fleets that can operates them. So any number will be divided by 4 and the fleets can't really help each other in war time. That's why they can't have few of them.

15 is the minimal number. That equal to 5 ship for pacific and northern fleets and another 5 for the baltic and black sea.

There is the issue of five distinct fleets that could use ships so any talk of x number of ships needed needs to take into account that not all the fleets require all the types of ships... I am sure you would agree a cruiser on the Caspian sea is a bit of overkill...

I would agree I think Russia is really embracing the concept of "distributed lethality" with even Corvettes able to strike from over 1000KM away. This is really transfromational. Look at the HUGE missiles Russian cruisers used to have, and compare with Kaliber. One thing I think would be a GREAT idea is to perhaps put SSBNs in the Caspian sea, they would be 100% invulnerable, last forever in the reduced salinity, and be impossible to target in any first strike. To me a much better option then Status 6, but how you build and get them launched there is another issue altogether...They can even run on the surface a lot of the time making life nice for the crews. They can be relatively low tech and won't even have to be that quiet.

mnztr wrote: One thing I think would be a GREAT idea is to perhaps put SSBNs in the Caspian sea, they would be 100% invulnerable, last forever in the reduced salinity, and be impossible to target in any first strike. To me a much better option then Status 6, but how you build and get them launched there is another issue altogether...They can even run on the surface a lot of the time making life nice for the crews. They can be relatively low tech and won't even have to be that quiet.

I always used to think why Russia / Soviet Union never went down this path. They even have giant rivers in Siberia (Lena, Ob, Yenisey) where they can put the boomers and their SLBMs. Completely invulnerable to any first strike and a guaranteed second strike capability.

I was reading about canals to the Caspian. One of them can handle a Borie class, but it would have to be unloaded to the point of the draft being less then 4m which I am not sure is possible. But perhaps they can add some floats to get it through

Well with the INF treaty gone their cheapest option would be to build tens of thousands of nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles... they can have them deep in the Ural mountains all well protected and hidden and when things happen they can be launched... newer models with nuclear scramjet engines could fly high and fast for a decade if need be... and then boom.

Put dirty little fission bombs in them... perhaps a dozen in each that can be dropped over the terrain they fly over....

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4052545.html

State tests of frigate Admiral of the Navy Kasatonov frigate of project 22350 completed

https://iz.ru/1022828/2020-06-12/nazvany-sroki-zakladki-dvukh-fregatov-proekta-22350

two Gorshkov class frigates will be laid down in Severnaya verf in late June/early July

Frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" in July will be part of the Navy

MOSCOW, July 6 - RIA News. The second frigate of the far sea zone of project 22350 Admiral Kasatonov is completing the tests and will be accepted into the Russian Navy in July, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, commander-in-chief of the Navy, said on Monday .
"For the distant sea zone, a stake has been made on equipping the surface component of the Russian Navy with new generation frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type project. Currently, the second frigate of this project, Admiral Kasatonov, is completing testing and will be accepted into the Navy in July," Evmenov said in an interview with Red Star .

https://ria.ru/20200706/1573926805.html

dino00 wrote:Frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" in July will be part of the Navy

MOSCOW, July 6 - RIA News. The second frigate of the far sea zone of project 22350 Admiral Kasatonov is completing the tests and will be accepted into the Russian Navy in July, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, commander-in-chief of the Navy, said on Monday .
"For the distant sea zone, a stake has been made on equipping the surface component of the Russian Navy with new generation frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type project. Currently, the second frigate of this project, Admiral Kasatonov, is completing testing and will be accepted into the Navy in July," Evmenov said in an interview with Red Star .

https://ria.ru/20200706/1573926805.html

This seems unlikely. It does not seem likely the second Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year because COVID is around.

ultimatewarrior wrote:

dino00 wrote:Frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" in July will be part of the Navy

MOSCOW, July 6 - RIA News. The second frigate of the far sea zone of project 22350 Admiral Kasatonov is completing the tests and will be accepted into the Russian Navy in July, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, commander-in-chief of the Navy, said on Monday .
"For the distant sea zone, a stake has been made on equipping the surface component of the Russian Navy with new generation frigates of the Admiral Gorshkov type project. Currently, the second frigate of this project, Admiral Kasatonov, is completing testing and will be accepted into the Navy in July," Evmenov said in an interview with Red Star .

https://ria.ru/20200706/1573926805.html

This seems unlikely. It does not seem likely the second Gorshkov class frigate can be commissioned this year because COVID is around.

You are being to pessimist, the comander-in-chief of the Navy has spoken

COVID19 lockdowns don't effect essential workers and they can deem shipyards and defence essential services... so COVID 19 might not effect it at all.

It's not official, but this what Interfax reports citing an unnamed source in MIC

"Adm. Kasatonov" will be handed over to the Navy on July 21

"Adm. Yumashev" and "Adm. Spiridonov", will be laid down simultaneously at the Northern shipyard on July 16

So we'll know in a few days...

Are there any photographs of the Gorshkovs with 24 UKSK cells yet or have they yet to be laid down?