Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

The Su-57 new engine "would be a difficult achievement but truly revolutionary".

The development work of the new engine for Su-57 fighters is expected to be finalized on 2022. Military Watch media compared its technical traits with the US analogues.

The new engine, also known as Izdeliye 30 (Article 30) is already going through tests in the Su-57 fighters, according to Rostec's Director General, Serguei Chemezov.

It is expected that all the flight performance aspects of the fighter, including range, climbing rate, speed acceleration and many others will be considerably improved.

Now the fighters have the AL-41F1 engines that have only 9% less thrust than the F-22 Raptor's F119.

Until now the US has a lead over its competitors in the production of 5th generation aircrafts, according to Military Watch, specifying that the F135 engine for the F-35 has approximately 33% more thrust than the AL-41.

However, this reality might change with the development of the Izdeliye 30, it pointed out.

It stressed that "the F135 has approximately a 33% more thrust than the AL-41, which means that the Izdeliye 30 will have to outreach the thrust of its predecessor in more than one-third".

At the same time, the media stresses that the Russian development of a smaller size engine with higher thrust than the US one would be a revolutionary achievement.

"The F135 is a considerably larger engine that most two-engined aircrafts would find it hard to accommodate and producing a similar thrust engine for a dual motored fighter would be a hard achievement but truly revolutionary", it noted.

The Su-57 production rate is of more than 15 aircraft per year only for the Russian service and a lot more to deal with exports. It is believed that Algeria has already made a request for the fighters, and other countries such as China, Vietnam and Burma até showing great interest.

https://mundo.sputniknews.com/defensa/202101031094014693-el-nuevo-motor-de-su-57-seria-un-logro-dificil-pero-verdaderamente-revolucionario/

Why on Earth should the izd. 30 produce the same thrust of the F135, which is a much larger engine?? Is the Su-57 twice as big as the F-35 or what? No it isn't, and with the current engine it quite probably has already way better TWR than the F-35. Journos simply don't know how to milk the Su-57 further.

LMFS wrote:Why on Earth should the izd. 30 produce the same thrust of the F135, which is a much larger engine?? Is the Su-57 twice as big as the F-35 or what? No it isn't, and with the current engine it quite probably has already way better TWR than the F-35. Journos simply don't know how to milk the Su-57 further.

Wasn't the Izd. 30's max thrust with AB stated as 19,000kg (42,000lbs)? F135-100's was declared max thrust with AB as 43,000lbs. That means Izd. 30's max thrust with AB is within the ball park of F135-100's max thrust with AB.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Wasn't the Izd. 30's max thrust with AB stated as 19,000kg (42,000lbs)? F135-100's was declared max thrust with AB as 43,000lbs. That means Izd. 30's max thrust with AB is within the ball park of F135-100's max thrust with AB.

Those figures are pure speculation and grossly exaggerated in fact. What we do know is that izd. 30 has the highest specific thrust (that is, probably higher mil thrust than F119) and specific weight smaller than 0.1, together with the fuel consumption of the AL-31F. That is what Marchukov said, anything else is someone pulling numbers out of certain places. That would mean an engine optimized for supercruise but still with good SFC, nothing was said about the max thrust.

Kiko wrote: other countries such as China, Vietnam and Burma até showing great interest.

https://mundo.sputniknews.com/defensa/202101031094014693-el-nuevo-motor-de-su-57-seria-un-logro-dificil-pero-verdaderamente-revolucionario/

China gets mentioned again. That's interesting.  But they are probably waiting for the phase 2 engine model.

Burma ? Burma is a China ally.  An su 57E buy for them is more of a prestige power projection move. To have a 5th gen aircraft in your own colors, even if its a small amount, just gives you prestige and puts you above any air force who only has 4th gen fighters. This is probably what Algeria is going for too.

Burma currently has

6 Su-30SME to be delivered and + 6 more Su-30 SM-2 on order.
7 JF-17M and 9 on order
31 Mig 29 Including 10 upgraded to Mig-29SM(mod) standard.
18 Yak-130 Lead-in Fighter Trainer

Vietnam. Vietnam has a free trade deal with the Eurasian Economic Union. Russia has lots of deals going with Vietnam so this could happen.

Notables in their air force

35 Sukhoi Su-30 multirole Su-30MK2V
11 Sukhoi Su-27 fighter Su-27P/SK/UBK used for training
Yakovlev Yak-130 Jet trainer 12 on order

I wasn't aware of this before but on the Wiki page for the Yak-130 it says

As an advanced training aircraft, the Yak-130 is able to replicate the characteristics of several 4+ generation fighters as well as the fifth-generation Sukhoi Su-57. It can also perform light-attack and reconnaissance duties, carrying a combat load of 3,000 kg.

So where the Yak-130 goes, su 57's might follow. Algeria has 16 in service.

has there been any news lately about the byelka radar?

TMA1 wrote:has there been any news lately about the byelka radar?

Not really, other than the moment the Su-57 supposed avionics upgrade includes a new radar and a September 2019 source from RTI stating that a photonic radar will be placed in a multifunctional fighter in a few years.

КРЭТ - Концерн Радиоэлектронные Технологии news 3768

“for example, take ground-based radar. Today, this radar is the size of a multi-story home, but using microwave photonics, the station can be installed on a standard KAMAZ truck. The effectiveness and range of the radar would be exactly the same, namely thousands of kilometers. Several of these mobile and small radar systems can be networked, which will only increase their characteristics.”

俄罗斯苏57失败板上钉钉？仍有最后一丝希望反败为胜|俄罗斯|战斗机|雷达_新浪军事_新浪网 (sina.com.cn)

"The detection distance is very far, the energy conversion efficiency is up to 60%, the traditional radar is only 30%, and the noise is more than 100 times lower than the traditional radar, greatly improving the signal-to-noise ratio, for stealth target theory detection distance of more than 500 kilometers!"

Фотонные радары, радиофотоника и стелс-технологии (naukatehnika.com)

"Unlike traditional radars, it will not be physically possible to silence ROFAR by traditional means of EW. The dynamic range of the photon crystal is about 200 DB. Modern electronic receiver, for comparison, has a range of 40 - 60 DB, and we modern EW complexes provide a signal to the entrance of the radio receiver - in 70-80 DB relative to its threshold sensitivity. Thus, the device that needs to receive the signal is displayed from a healthy state. Even after the interference in his inside there are still processes that do not allow him to work. But on Earth there is simply no energy source for a signal with a capacity greater than 200 DB, so this logic in the case of ROFAR simply does not work. It can be confused by so-called intellectual opposition, but this is a different story."

https://topwar.ru/162371-v-rossii-sozdan-3d-radar-novogo-tipa.html

“The Russian army may soon get a new type of radar that is able more effectively than traditional radars to identify targets even under conditions of jamming. The fundamental difference between radiophonic locators is that the signal processing is realized with the aid of optics, and not by the microwave electronics.

New technology creates a 3D image of the object, its three-dimensional portrait, and allows to determine its type. It is expected that in the next few years radiophotonic radars will be installed on the promising multifunctional fighters of the new generation."

2009 was when byelka radar was introduced to now 2022 avioncs upgrade later, I think it would be a safe winning bet that RTI is referring to the Su-57 as a promising multifunctional fighter. The F-35 and F-22 had their radars replaced in a few years with additional 2 years of testing for each, so its more than enough time to get a upgrade especially for radars. The 2nd order of Su-57s would have to be big enough for every long range air to air missile to fit in its weapons bay for every F-22 or F-35 out there, than the order will be sufficient enough as long as the 2nd variant Su-57s get crowned with photonic radars.

China gets mentioned again. That's interesting. But they are probably waiting for the phase 2 engine model.

Which raises the question... will export Su-57s include the upgraded engine or will they continue to have the current engine?

I would think the Russian Su-57s might have all sorts of experimental new stuff as well as the new engine being developed, so what is included in the export model might make it quite different from the Russian version.

I would think the base model fighter is sufficiently good enough for the Russians to keep a lot of secret equipment from their own model off the export model... especially with countries like India or perhaps Turkey who might want to fit their own stuff or third party equipment in place of Russian stuff.

It is expected that in the next few years radiophotonic radars will be installed on the promising multifunctional fighters of the new generation."

It seems to be referring to more than one multifunction fighter of a new generation...

in the next few years radiophotonic radars will be installed on the promising multifunctional fighters of the new generation."

Which suggests it will be used on the Su-57 and the new LMFS if it makes it to service...

You are forgetting both PAK-DP than S-70.
Truly, they said that it will be possible tu convert even actual radars into phodars.

thegopnik wrote:

TMA1 wrote:has there been any news lately about the byelka radar?

Not really, other than the moment the Su-57 supposed avionics upgrade includes a new radar and a September 2019 source from RTI stating that a photonic radar will be placed in a multifunctional fighter in a few years.

КРЭТ - Концерн Радиоэлектронные Технологии news 3768

“for example, take ground-based radar. Today, this radar is the size of a multi-story home, but using microwave photonics, the station can be installed on a standard KAMAZ truck. The effectiveness and range of the radar would be exactly the same, namely thousands of kilometers. Several of these mobile and small radar systems can be networked, which will only increase their characteristics.”

俄罗斯苏57失败板上钉钉？仍有最后一丝希望反败为胜|俄罗斯|战斗机|雷达_新浪军事_新浪网 (sina.com.cn)

"The detection distance is very far, the energy conversion efficiency is up to 60%, the traditional radar is only 30%, and the noise is more than 100 times lower than the traditional radar, greatly improving the signal-to-noise ratio, for stealth target theory detection distance of more than 500 kilometers!"

Фотонные радары, радиофотоника и стелс-технологии (naukatehnika.com)

"Unlike traditional radars, it will not be physically possible to silence ROFAR by traditional means of EW. The dynamic range of the photon crystal is about 200 DB. Modern electronic receiver, for comparison, has a range of 40 - 60 DB, and we modern EW complexes provide a signal to the entrance of the radio receiver - in 70-80 DB relative to its threshold sensitivity. Thus, the device that needs to receive the signal is displayed from a healthy state. Even after the interference in his inside there are still processes that do not allow him to work. But on Earth there is simply no energy source for a signal with a capacity greater than 200 DB, so this logic in the case of ROFAR simply does not work. It can be confused by so-called intellectual opposition, but this is a different story."

https://topwar.ru/162371-v-rossii-sozdan-3d-radar-novogo-tipa.html

“The Russian army may soon get a new type of radar that is able more effectively than traditional radars to identify targets even under conditions of jamming. The fundamental difference between radiophonic locators is that the signal processing is realized with the aid of optics, and not by the microwave electronics.

New technology creates a 3D image of the object, its three-dimensional portrait, and allows to determine its type. It is expected that in the next few years radiophotonic radars will be installed on the promising multifunctional fighters of the new generation."

2009 was when byelka radar was introduced to now 2022 avioncs upgrade later, I think it would be a safe winning bet that RTI is referring to the Su-57 as a promising multifunctional fighter. The F-35 and F-22 had their radars replaced in a few years with additional 2 years of testing for each, so its more than enough time to get a upgrade especially for radars. The 2nd order of Su-57s would have to be big enough for every long range air to air missile to fit in its weapons bay for every F-22 or F-35 out there, than the order will be sufficient enough as long as the 2nd variant Su-57s get crowned with photonic radars.

Yeah, it looks like the same article I posted back in 2015 (before it was taken down on Rostec's main site), but Topwar reposted it (partially) on it's website. Photonic as in the computing and information processing technology, not specifically radar technology. The increased computing and processing could even improve Sonar (sonar and radar work on radically diametrically opposed principles). The original article went in depth how Photonic computing could revolutionize Russian domestic civilian space. From energy efficient housing to the digital information economy. Because the photonics behind ROFAR is computing technology, it literally could enhance anything just like analog and digital computers did.

been on other forums and I have seen a large countermeasures pod. it is behind rear facing radome underneath the fighter. ha e you guys seen it? much too big to be chaff/flares. maybe towed decoys?

So obviously photonic radars will be very much about how the data is handled by the programs. So predictive algorithms and analysis, machine learning (Pyton/R/H2o) and above all (my job) conversion of images into (manageable/graphics) code.

In this area Russia is at least equal to the USA,
but it has a better school of mathematics.

Interessante. (in italian) .)
Ciao a tutti.

Russia has a better school of physics as well.   Americans could not believe that the oxygen rich staged combustion in rocket engines was
possible without cryogenic cooling (e.g. Shuttle main engines).   But the mud hut dweller Russians managed to formulate alloys that worked.

Today America is an also ran.  It simply siphons IP and talent from offshore and claims it as its own.   American scientific and engineering
talent is not even American.   Most of the current capability of the USA is due to inertia.   It is the result of better times in the past.
While it is routine to dismiss Russia as riding on the Soviet legacy, it is actually the USA that is riding its past legacy.   And there is
an evanescence involved.

You guys have no idea how the US works, it is nothing to do with developing the tech. Its about funding and bringing to market the tech, products and ideas. This is why it attracts talent. It has a predatory system for capital and talent. Russians are much smarter on average, but somehow the Russian system cannot deliver an equal quality of material wealth.. why is that?

magnumcromagnon wrote:
Yeah, it looks like the same article I posted back in 2015 (before it was taken down on Rostec's main site), but Topwar reposted it (partially) on it's website. Photonic as in the computing and information processing technology, not specifically radar technology. The increased computing and processing could even improve Sonar (sonar and radar work on radically diametrically opposed principles). The original article went in depth how Photonic computing could revolutionize Russian domestic civilian space. From energy efficient housing to the digital information economy. Because the photonics behind ROFAR is computing technology, it literally could enhance anything just like analog and digital computers did.

That is mostly incorrect.

Photonics in radar is not a computing technology but rather a hardware level optical signal generation/analysis approach. Any radio wave requires:

1. Antenna for transmission/reception
2. Tx/Rx module for signal generation/analysis that includes multipliers/deviders, frequency up/down converters
3. The information back processor that in modern times is in fact a computer

Now, what photonics is trying to replace is the second part, which has for long been a bottleneck in radar design. Anyone remember the magnetron? It is a (usually vacuum) reflective cavity that was used to generate waves of various amplitude according to its geometry and tapping techniques. That was a while ago. Then came power amplifiers (analog) and then Mosfets. They gave us compactness, flexibility and speed, but as with any electronic system, their problem was with frequency response limits. You need to understand that whatever digital magic the back processor uses, the actual signal generation is analog, just like nature intends it to be. In nature frequency is unlimitedly responsive. But in what we mere humans make, not so. Thus we have since been trying to improve the Tx/Rx module with different semiconductor innovations such as with gallium and arsenic doping. The higher the frequency, the hotter the gate becomes and hence module failure.

But someone understood also that the higher the frequency, the more we were approaching the optical spectrum. So why not use optical signal generation/analysis/detection with splitters? Hence LEDs and Photodiods led us to photonics.

It is just like fiber optics that replaces copper wire in transmission. We can cram many channels on a copper wire but it tends to have a limit as the medium becomes saturated. But with fiber we can have practically unlimited channels. In fact we still don't know the physical limit of fiber as the actual bottleneck is our information processing capacity.

Thus photonics radar is neither a laser beam generation radar (that is Lidar) nor a new information-level signal processing but a hardware-level optical signal handling technology.

A Russian quoting a Chinese blog or article where they make polemic claims about the Su-57 as pure click bait. Nothing to see there.

LMFS wrote:A Russian quoting a Chinese blog or article where they make polemic claims about the Su-57 as pure click bait. Nothing to see there.

China is the last country on the planet that should be criticizing Russian tech.

Note the photoshopped tail rudders on the F-22 and Su-57.





Western fanboi losers can't handle the truth so they lie and lie.

Why do people lose time doing lengthy videos comparing completely fictional data about classified aircraft is beyond me

Arrow wrote:https://inosmi.ru/inoblog/20210111/248855971.html?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop

What do you think about this article. They claim that the Su-57 does not have too advanced air intakes. This is probably some propaganda article

Russia chose to use computer controlled diverter intakes for the su 57 because for them , the positives outweighed the negatives.

The propaganda retards use this to say that Russia was incapable of doing the math for DSI intakes so this is the only reason why the F-35 and J-20 have them and the su 57 doesn't.

But at the same time , they huff and puff about how great the similar intakes were on the YF-23 here. At least in the way that they deal with the boundary layer air

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20881/the-yf-23s-air-inlet-design-was-its-most-exotic-feature-you-never-heard-of

No fixed intake can reproduce the performance of variable ramp intakes, that are needed above 2 M and capable up to 3 M. So if you have some crappy DSI intakes and thick body like the F-35 you have a top speed of 1.6 M (which you will need ages to reach) and that's it. It is even worse for F-22 and J-20, which are air superiority fighters but whose engines will have to compete with Su-57 having way less amount of air and way worse pressure recovery. I don't know how anyone can think that is any sort of advantage...

LMFS wrote:No fixed intake can reproduce the performance of variable ramp intakes, that are needed above 2 M and capable up to 3 M. So if you have some crappy DSI intakes and thick body like the F-35 you have  a top speed of 1.6 M (which you will need ages to reach) and that's it. It is even worse for F-22 and J-20, which are air superiority fighters but whose engines will have to compete with Su-57 having way less amount of air and way worse pressure recovery. I don't know how anyone can think that is any sort of advantage...

I tried to figure out what all the hype about DSI intakes was. Through this video, it sounds like the advantage is in weight savings and less moving parts. Which is rather strange. If there was somewhere not to skimp on moving parts and extra weight, it would be how the air gets into the engine. But Im not an aircraft engineer. There are positives and negatives for both. And Lockheed chose one setup and Sukhoi chose another. I don't actually think Lockheed engineers are stupid so they must have their reasons.

Edit: Oh and he says it saves about a half million dollars. So money is why you want DSI intakes ! Lol