Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

kvs wrote:Yes, doing it all in half a year is pointless if the order volume is low.   But 12 frames per year is not a reflection of intrinsic capacity of
Sukhoi to produce the Su-35 just as 7 frames per year is not relevant for the Su-57.    Some of the discussion in these threads falls
into the "production capacity limits" zone which is BS.

I see what you mean now yeah. There are some yahoo's that compare the su 57 program to the F-35 program because they are happening sorta around the same time. They get all flustered when they see the F-35 being produced like Volkswagens. The reality is , the scope of the programs are so different, they might as well be on different planets

Backman wrote:I see what you mean now yeah. There are some yahoo's that compare the su 57 program to the F-35 program because they are happening sorta around the same time. They get all flustered when they see the F-35 being produced like Volkswagens.  The reality is , the scope of the programs are so different, they might as well be on different planets

Muricans as usually try to turn even their most embarrassing fuckups into selling points. They rushed the plane into "low rate" (sic) production under the excuse that it would be "cheaper" and boasting how much more successful the program was vs. PAK-FA. Hundreds of units and 6 years after IOC they discover the plane is still not ready, operational costs are not met, and many of the already produced planes will never be combat ready and will simply be dumped. The reality is, that while JSF started many years before and had the luxury of having flying demonstrators before PAK-FA was even started, nowadays the program has already failed massively in terms of costs and schedule and even worse, it has failed to substitute the F-16 and produce a sustainable, mature plane, while Su-57 is through with the state tests, increasing production and has a robust, well managed development roadmap, at a ridiculous fraction of the costs and in less time than JSF. Not to talk about the absurd advantage the Su-57 has as a platform vs. F-35. Really it takes an insane amount of cheek to criticise the Su-57 in light of what JSF has managed to deliver...

I love how the "it's just a prototype" argument sneaking-ly evolved into "only a few of them in service".

LMFS wrote:

The reality is, that while JSF started many years before and had the luxury of having flying demonstrators before PAK-FA was even started, nowadays the program has already failed massively in terms of costs and schedule and even worse, it has failed to substitute the F-16 and produce a sustainable, mature plane, while Su-57 is through with the state tests, increasing production and has a robust, well managed development roadmap, at a ridiculous fraction of the costs and in less time than JSF. Not to talk about the absurd advantage the Su-57 has as a platform vs. F-35. Really it takes an insane amount of cheek to criticise the Su-57 in light of what JSF has managed to deliver...

And now they have started the NGAD program. I wonder what will come out of this?

Arrow wrote:
And now they have started the NGAD program.  I wonder what will come out of this?

Huge profits for the MIC.

Lots of dollars for politicians and lots of jobs for retired military big wigs.

Atmosphere wrote:I love how the "it's just a prototype" argument sneaking-ly evolved into "only a few of them in service".

Which is already evolving into "forget F-22 and F-35, we already have "demonstrators" of the 6G flying"

Arrow wrote:And now they have started the NGAD program. I wonder what will come out of this?

If I had to bet, it will be the famous F-35/F-22 hybrid. But we will all be forced to take it as 6G, because the US never fails and their 5G planes are not abandoned for being massive flops, but because the next wonder of US MIC is round the corner. They are already backtracking from the claim that the reason for the NGAD was the Indo-Pacific theater and its supposed demands of huge range, and now they are already floating the idea that there will be two versions, one for that said environment and the other for Europe... which implies that the F-22 has been rendered obsolete by the Su-57.

We will see with what they surprise us, as of late I am really at a loss trying to predict the scale of the next fuckup their leadership is going to announce

Here is a great intro video on the su-57 from millennium 7. Great guy and has some solid info which is surprising for yr vids these days.

I think people are forgetting that the Su-57 is not a typical fifth gen either. This generation classification is misleading.

Having an organic skeletonised structure in the pipeline is not something found on fifth gens.
Then, if the Iz.30 really had the same figures declared, (which i am certain it would), then that is not a fifth gen engine. It's more.
Just divide the thrust figure given by saturn by the weight of a 117 (they said that the weight did not increase) and you would find a rather massive thrust to Weight ratio.

You combine these two aspects (an already light airfame being lightenned more, and such an engine) and you get a spaceship.

As for ROFAR, then even while info is still very scarce, i'm sure its not a farce. A lot of companies world wide are going into this direction.

Atmosphere wrote:I think people are forgetting that the Su-57 is not a typical fifth gen either. This generation classification is misleading.

Having an organic skeletonised structure in the pipeline is not something found on fifth gens.
Then, if the Iz.30 really had the same figures declared, (which i am certain it would), then that is not a fifth gen engine. It's more.
Just divide the thrust figure given by saturn by the weight of a 117 (they said that the weight did not increase) and you would find a rather massive thrust to Weight ratio.

You combine these two aspects (an already light airfame being lightenned more, and such an engine) and you get a spaceship.

As for ROFAR, then even while info is still very scarce, i'm sure its not a farce. A lot of companies world wide are going into this direction.

Su-57 is 5.5G and the developers talk openly about it becoming 6G. The big advantage vs the Raptor is that Russia got it right with the size and philosophy of the platform from the beginning, where the US fell short in range and payload, did not develop further the engine and stuck to low efficiency fixed intakes and very conventional aero, among other failures. Plus they already say the successor of izd. 30 with 3 stream technology will fit the same size of the AL-41F1. So the plane can be developed into 6G almost seamlessly, while US will need to start from scratch or do significant redesign to the F-22 to come up with something competitive. To put it in simple terms, the US will need to develop two generations of fighters, while Russia will manage with just one, due to much better foresight and a proper program management.

As to the engine, the TWR was apparently "disclosed" long time ago, from my calculations it should reach ca. 13. Do you have a source that says the engine is not heavier than the 117? TWR empty of the plane should approach 2, it will be a beast. But where I expect the biggest surprise vs. F-22 is in high altitude propulsive performance, with ca. 30% more capture area at the intakes, straight air ducts, adjustable ramps and higher specific thrust at the engine. The advantage in performance can be utterly crushing.

LMFS wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:I think people are forgetting that the Su-57 is not a typical fifth gen either. This generation classification is misleading.

Having an organic skeletonised structure in the pipeline is not something found on fifth gens.
Then, if the Iz.30 really had the same figures declared, (which i am certain it would), then that is not a fifth gen engine. It's more.
Just divide the thrust figure given by saturn by the weight of a 117 (they said that the weight did not increase) and you would find a rather massive thrust to Weight ratio.

You combine these two aspects (an already light airfame being lightenned more, and such an engine) and you get a spaceship.

As for ROFAR, then even while info is still very scarce, i'm sure its not a farce. A lot of companies world wide are going into this direction.

Su-57 is 5.5G and the developers talk openly about it becoming 6G. The big advantage vs the Raptor is that Russia got it right with the size and philosophy of the platform from the beginning, where the US fell short in range and payload, did not develop further the engine and stuck to low efficiency fixed intakes and very conventional aero, among other failures. Plus they already say the successor of izd. 30 with 3 stream technology will fit the same size of the AL-41F1. So the plane can be developed into 6G almost seamlessly, while US will need to start from scratch or do significant redesign to the F-22 to come up with something competitive. To put it in simple terms, the US will need to develop two generations of fighters, while Russia will manage with just one, due to much better foresight and a proper program management.

As to the engine, the TWR was apparently "disclosed" long time ago, from my calculations it should reach ca. 13. Do you have a source that says the engine is not heavier than the 117? TWR empty of the plane should approach 2, it will be a beast. But where I expect the biggest surprise vs. F-22 is in high altitude propulsive performance, with ca. 30% more capture area at the intakes, straight air ducts, adjustable ramps and higher specific thrust at the engine. The advantage in performance can be utterly crushing.

To be considered 6G it would require significant RCS reduction.

ChineseTiger wrote:

LMFS wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:I think people are forgetting that the Su-57 is not a typical fifth gen either. This generation classification is misleading.

Having an organic skeletonised structure in the pipeline is not something found on fifth gens.
Then, if the Iz.30 really had the same figures declared, (which i am certain it would), then that is not a fifth gen engine. It's more.
Just divide the thrust figure given by saturn by the weight of a 117 (they said that the weight did not increase) and you would find a rather massive thrust to Weight ratio.

You combine these two aspects (an already light airfame being lightenned more, and such an engine) and you get a spaceship.

As for ROFAR, then even while info is still very scarce, i'm sure its not a farce. A lot of companies world wide are going into this direction.

Su-57 is 5.5G and the developers talk openly about it becoming 6G. The big advantage vs the Raptor is that Russia got it right with the size and philosophy of the platform from the beginning, where the US fell short in range and payload, did not develop further the engine and stuck to low efficiency fixed intakes and very conventional aero, among other failures. Plus they already say the successor of izd. 30 with 3 stream technology will fit the same size of the AL-41F1. So the plane can be developed into 6G almost seamlessly, while US will need to start from scratch or do significant redesign to the F-22 to come up with something competitive. To put it in simple terms, the US will need to develop two generations of fighters, while Russia will manage with just one, due to much better foresight and a proper program management.

As to the engine, the TWR was apparently "disclosed" long time ago, from my calculations it should reach ca. 13. Do you have a source that says the engine is not heavier than the 117? TWR empty of the plane should approach 2, it will be a beast. But where I expect the biggest surprise vs. F-22 is in high altitude propulsive performance, with ca. 30% more capture area at the intakes, straight air ducts, adjustable ramps and higher specific thrust at the engine. The advantage in performance can be utterly crushing.

To be considered 6G it would require significant RCS reduction.

No.

Hole wrote:No.

Hey, ChineseTroll at least is trying...

So what they are showing to the world, who would dare to guess?

Looks like a scaled down twin engined fighter.... the LMFS perhaps...


Hahaha...

Chinese Tiger wrote:To be considered 6G it would require significant RCS reduction.

Not at all, because 6th gen fighters will have photonic radar which makes RCS irrelevant... stealth coating and stealth shaping means nothing in terahertz frequencies and enormously broad bandwaves...

This is what you're looking for Alamo!

The RF-19 stealth recon fighter!

GarryB wrote:

So what they are showing to the world, who would dare to guess?

Looks like a scaled down twin engined fighter.... the LMFS perhaps...


Hahaha...

Chinese Tiger wrote:To be considered 6G it would require significant RCS reduction.

Not at all, because 6th gen fighters will have photonic radar which makes RCS irrelevant... stealth coating and stealth shaping means nothing in terahertz frequencies and enormously broad bandwaves...

And with photonic radar, the smaller the silhouette is, the more stealth it will be. (at least as i understand photonic) and the su 57 has the most work done to it to lower the silhouette of any fighter.

Mir wrote:This is what you're looking for Alamo!

The RF-19 stealth recon fighter!

Man, talk about blast from the past

This thing was in every toy store, magazine and bubblegum sticker back when I was a single digit wee lad back in the 80's

Always wondered what happened to it...

LMFS wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:I think people are forgetting that the Su-57 is not a typical fifth gen either. This generation classification is misleading.

Having an organic skeletonised structure in the pipeline is not something found on fifth gens.
Then, if the Iz.30 really had the same figures declared, (which i am certain it would), then that is not a fifth gen engine. It's more.
Just divide the thrust figure given by saturn by the weight of a 117 (they said that the weight did not increase) and you would find a rather massive thrust to Weight ratio.

You combine these two aspects (an already light airfame being lightenned more, and such an engine) and you get a spaceship.

As for ROFAR, then even while info is still very scarce, i'm sure its not a farce. A lot of companies world wide are going into this direction.

Su-57 is 5.5G and the developers talk openly about it becoming 6G. The big advantage vs the Raptor is that Russia got it right with the size and philosophy of the platform from the beginning, where the US fell short in range and payload, did not develop further the engine and stuck to low efficiency fixed intakes and very conventional aero, among other failures. Plus they already say the successor of izd. 30 with 3 stream technology will fit the same size of the AL-41F1. So the plane can be developed into 6G almost seamlessly, while US will need to start from scratch or do significant redesign to the F-22 to come up with something competitive. To put it in simple terms, the US will need to develop two generations of fighters, while Russia will manage with just one, due to much better foresight and a proper program management.

As to the engine, the TWR was apparently "disclosed" long time ago, from my calculations it should reach ca. 13. Do you have a source that says the engine is not heavier than the 117? TWR empty of the plane should approach 2, it will be a beast. But where I expect the biggest surprise vs. F-22 is in high altitude propulsive performance, with ca. 30% more capture area at the intakes, straight air ducts, adjustable ramps and higher specific thrust at the engine. The advantage in performance can be utterly crushing.

The official from NPO saturn talked about it in the Zvezda documentary.

Atmosphere wrote:The official from NPO saturn talked about it in the Zvezda documentary.

I don't recall any concrete statement in that regard, but I will check again. If that was the case, we would practically have the spec of the engine, because the rough specific weight was disclosed before.

BTW, talking about the Su-57's propulsion:



EDIT

Wow, I am viewing it right now, and I am sad to say that the guy is full of s*** in regards of the parameters and operational life of the AL-41F1...

...more mistakes with the intake mesh, the guy is clearly not and specialist in the Su-57

...showing Salut serrated true 3D TVC as izd. 30

...uninformed guesses about izd. 30 parameters, too

I watched both of Millennium 7's videos on the subject yesterday.

Obvious errors aside, it is somewhat refreshing to see someone who doesn't immediately criticise the Su-57. Ignoring the specifics, he was more or less on-point with the broad strokes; though, there is one thing I took issue with. His take on thrust vectoring.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've always held the idea that the Soviets', and by extension Russia's, obsession with extremely nimble fighters (with a recent focus on thrust vectoring) was due to a prediction that modern air combat, in spite of all its technological proclivities, would inevitably degrade into a complete mess where WVR combat would be prevalent.

I think with the advent of modern EW systems, and the still lackluster performance of medium-range A-A missiles, it seems perfectly logical to focus on close-quarter air combat capability. I'd also argue that in the larger defensive military doctrine employed by Russia, this tendency towards WVR combat could be forced by any number of complementary assets, such as SAMs, ground-based EW systems, Interceptors, etc.

For the record, I am definitely in the camp of people that think thrust vectoring has no intention to dodge or fool missile tracks. We're talking about aircraft entering combat at speeds nearing or exceeding Mach 2 and merging at around Mach 1. At those speeds, the accelerometer is going to max-out long before your AoA meter. Pushing that boundary isn't going to be good for the airframe and more-so the squish container of red water strapped into the seat. Not to mention, all of that is ignoring that the best way to defeat a missile is with vector changes at high speed and high G force with the intention of defeating the missile's energy, not its tracking ability.

TL;DR
I think Russia plans to force the aerial battleground into a WVR focused arena. Hence the focus on thrust vectoring and super-manoeuvrability.

The Su-57 also has a lot smaller vertical tails than the Su-27. I think part of the reason is the TVC.
With TVC you do not need the control surfaces to be as large and this reduces RCS.