The Situation in the Ukraine. #30

I am not opposed to Ukraine and Belarus and other areas joining the Russian Federation, but it needs to be consensual... the people in those regions have to want it and the leadership obviously has to be prepared to give up total control and essentially become a regional government... and I really don't think even Belarus is ready for that now, and the Ukraine wont be ready for that for 20 years... some parts of it.... never.

Russia needs to not waste time and money on broken charity cases... they need to help them help themselves, but they shouldn't fight them to accept funding and investment.

There are lots of countries around the world that would love good relations with Russia and to trade in a way that their own companies make just as much money as the Russian partners they work with.

Many small countries will see groups like the EU or Russian Federation or the US of A as a way to get power and money which they could not achieve on their own.

Russia wants Russians, not Ukrainians and Belarussians and the Baltic russophobe nutters in their house.

Not saying people from these regions can't be Russian citizens, but they have to be Russian first with their region second.

They got what they wanted... independence... and poverty... seems like they need to have a good internal discussion and decide what they actually want.

(and I have only ever given one dislike... and that was to my own post for testing purposes.)

kvs wrote:

PhSt wrote:

But today these lands hold questionable value for Russia, even if the people living here were all for it. And if the people are at least half against it, then the territory holds no value.

I do not understand why some people here do not see any territorial gains by Russia as beneficial. The US and China for example, wouldn't reach their status now if they were the size of Tuvalu. Any resisting population can be brainwashed into submission, look at Chechnya, or as in the case of Ukraine, ethnic Russians being brainwashed into thinking they belong to a different set of ethnicity called Ukrainians.

In the near future, I'd like to see Russia reincorporate Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan into its national territory, I believe these territorial gains will allow Russia to build a stronger foundation for its continued existence for many centuries to come.

Belorus as an independent state is an absurdity.   Imagine if the basis for the partition of England (not UK) was the dialect difference between the east and the west.
There is not such thing as Belorussian history, it is Russian history.   That is why Lukass-hanko crossed the line when he started acting like Ukr degenerates and
concocting fairy tales about Belorussian history.  

Kazakhstan is another case where the borders do not conform to reality.   About 40% of the population consists of Russians and Ukrainians in the north
who settled and developed those lands.   Of course these people have no say because criminals pulled borders out of their asses in the good old days
of the USSR.

Ukraine needs to be partitioned.   The south-east should return where it belongs and the modified part that will never see itself as part of Russia,
the western part, can join Poland or something.   The Ukrainian state is marginally more legitimate than the Belorussian state.   None of them would
have existed if it was not for both western and Bolshevik meddling.  

But it remains a fact that Russia should not be invading and suppressing countries.   This is simply moronic.   The best way is to keep growing economically
while they flush down the toilet.  The latter is guaranteed and so is the former.    In a few decades they will be trying to cross the Russian border
like Latinos attempt to enter the USA.

(PS I did not dislike your post.)

Belarus is not an absurdity, it has a homogeneous population of Belarussians and its present-day territory mostly conforms to the territories of its progenitors; the principalities of Polotsk and Minsk, as well as some lands they expanded to under Lithuanian and then Russian sovereignty.

Kazakhstan's territory mostly conforms to the territories of its 3 seperate zhus, a sort of territorial and tribal division. Plus some land in the west near the Caspian and in the north-west, which was indeed settled by Russian Cossacks (at about the same time Kazakh nomads started to expand there), but before that was inhabited by the Nogay horde.

Ukraine I already discussed, but in any case partition is nonsense if the people there themselves don't want that and consider themselves Ukrainians.

Bogdan Motors has been declared bankrupt now.

https://thepage.ua/news/bankrotstvo-bogdan-motors-komu-i-skolko-dolzhna-avtokompaniya

The wave of bankruptcies is coming on hard and fast it seems. Just earlier this week we had the final liquidation of the Black Sea Shipyard.

Bogdan Motors had been billed as post-Soviet Ukraine's first great independent success in machine-building.

Of course, while the corporation did indeed see some success for a while, that viewpoint is only partially true. In reality, Bogdan Motors is largely based off of 2 Soviet-era factories;
ChARZ (in Cherkassy), and LuAZ (in Lutsk)

ChARZ was only a repair facility in the Soviet-era, with production being introduced during the post-Soviet years to eventually encompass a range of bus models.
While LuAZ was a pretty major producer of off-road and amphibious cars during its time, for both the military and the civilian sector, while in the post-Soviet era it was switched to specialize in the production of Trolleybuses
Bogdan Motors also built a new factory in Cherkassy in the 2000s, mostly to build light trucks, medical vehicles and armoured vehicles (such as the Bars‒8 ) for military needs. In practice, these were mostly license-produced Belarussian MAZ designs or Chinese Great Wall designs.

Anyway ChARZ (or Cherkassy Buses as it became known), was seperated from Bogdan Motors in 2011. It continues to produce to this day under the Ataman brand, albeit it's having less and less orders itself.

As for the 2 factories still in Bogdan Motors; LuAZ and the new one in Cherkassy, the later has ceased new production as of last year and started to lay off staff, while I'm not sure about LuAZ.

The fire sale of Ukraine starts.

If the authorities were smart, to which they are not, they would be trying to buy assets up at pennies to the dollar. Or whatever to the Hyrvina. And trying to then rent out the assets to companies whom may want to use the space for something.

But they won't. This is 90's Russia all over again. And I'm certain Ukraine went through same shit in the 90's. Surprised how people forgotten and let it happen again

Slava Ukrainia or whatever.

miketheterrible wrote:The fire sale of Ukraine starts.

If the authorities were smart, to which they are not, they would be trying to buy assets up at pennies to the dollar. Or whatever to the Hyrvina.  And trying to then rent out the assets to companies whom may want to use the space for something.

But they won't. This is 90's Russia all over again. And I'm certain Ukraine went through same shit in the 90's.  Surprised how people forgotten and let it happen again

Slava Ukrainia or whatever.

No, not just yet

Like I mentioned in the other thread most large industrial enterprises are only hovering on the edge of bankruptcy, or are undergoing it but being saved and restructured into ever more useless holdings, bleeding employees and capacities in the process, but not all at once.

The real fire sale will start once the West gets tired of throwing money into a black hole with no returns, and all that collapses down. And just as critically, when the market for Ukrainian land (that has just been opened last month, but so far only for private Ukrainian citizens) opens for foreigners as well as Ukrainian companies in 2024 or so I believe.

flamming_python wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:The fire sale of Ukraine starts.

If the authorities were smart, to which they are not, they would be trying to buy assets up at pennies to the dollar. Or whatever to the Hyrvina.  And trying to then rent out the assets to companies whom may want to use the space for something.

But they won't. This is 90's Russia all over again. And I'm certain Ukraine went through same shit in the 90's.  Surprised how people forgotten and let it happen again

Slava Ukrainia or whatever.

No, not just yet

Like I mentioned in the other thread most large industrial enterprises are only hovering on the edge of bankruptcy, or are undergoing it but being saved and restructured into ever more useless holdings, bleeding employees and capacities in the process, but not all at once.

The real fire sale will start once the West gets tired of throwing money into a black hole with no returns, and all that collapses down. And just as critically, when the market for Ukrainian land (that has just been opened last month, but so far only for private Ukrainian citizens) opens for foreigners as well as Ukrainian companies in 2024 or so I believe.

If the largest and most oldest shipyards are gone, Antanov gone, and the rest are surviving making flag poles and or making some kind of cooker - isnt definition of done, then I dont know what done is.

But I see what you are saying. It will get worst.

kvs wrote:Now we start to see why Russia was smart not to invade Ukraine to remove the Kiev coup regime.    The days of the Kiev coup regime
are numbered.   And it has itself to thank for this.   The ultra-retarded move to sever economic ties to Russia without any offsetting
markets must be one of the worst policies in the history of international relations.  

I expect that we will see historical revisionism in the near future about how it was Russia that cut off trade in key areas with Ukraine.
These clowns have a congenital problem with facing reality.   So let them sink deeper into their own cesspool.  

Ukraine itself will come back to Russia! Sooner or later the people are pissed off with western promises of milk and honey flowing through the rivers. Ukraine must learn it the hard way...in the early 90ies and the same game now again!

But if they come back, please let the western shitpart of Ukraine where it belongs to...Poland, Mordor...

kvs wrote:Now we start to see why Russia was smart not to invade Ukraine to remove the Kiev coup regime.    The days of the Kiev coup regime
are numbered.   And it has itself to thank for this.   The ultra-retarded move to sever economic ties to Russia without any offsetting
markets must be one of the worst policies in the history of international relations.  

I expect that we will see historical revisionism in the near future about how it was Russia that cut off trade in key areas with Ukraine.
These clowns have a congenital problem with facing reality.   So let them sink deeper into their own cesspool.  

Their whole strategy was banked on one thing - that Russia collapses over Western isolation, military pressure and sanctions.
Indeed this was the core assumption of the Ukrainian elite since the 90s, going by all their decisions to date. That the West would crush Russia ultimately and they themselves would gain and raise their status by contributing.

If that would have happened then Russians would have ended up even poorer than Ukrainians, Russian industries would have collapsed, Kiev would be the new cultural capital of the post-Soviet space, and might then be accepted into the EU so that Europe together can enter and exploit Russia's markets, while Russians would come to the Ukraine to find work.

Only it didn't work out that way and instead the Ukraine is the one that finds itself exploited, with only a limited access to the EU market, and whose population go to Poland to work.
And on the other side its sandwiched in by Russia, which remains standing.

Azi wrote:

kvs wrote:Now we start to see why Russia was smart not to invade Ukraine to remove the Kiev coup regime.    The days of the Kiev coup regime
are numbered.   And it has itself to thank for this.   The ultra-retarded move to sever economic ties to Russia without any offsetting
markets must be one of the worst policies in the history of international relations.  

I expect that we will see historical revisionism in the near future about how it was Russia that cut off trade in key areas with Ukraine.
These clowns have a congenital problem with facing reality.   So let them sink deeper into their own cesspool.  

Ukraine itself will come back to Russia! Sooner or later the people are pissed off with western promises of milk and honey flowing through the rivers. Ukraine must learn it the hard way...in the early 90ies and the same game now again!

But if they come back, please let the western shitpart of Ukraine where it belongs to...Poland, Mordor...

But do we want them..?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

All industrial enteprises of worth are either gone, nearly gone, or have been import-substituted by Russia already
The Odessa ports, similarly once among the Russian Empire's and then the USSR's largest - has been substituted by investments into the Novorossisk port, which now accounts for nearly x3 the amount of tons shipped to and fro as all the Odessa ports altogether
The land.. meh. Russia is doing well reviving agriculture on its own land
The institutes, universities and so on - well anyone with a brain who graduates from them goes to the West or Russia anyway.
And the workforce itself that's ready to work in the Russian economy can simply emigrate to Russia instead

The problem ultimately is though, is that there's no guarantee the people won't go down that old Russophobic nationalist-adventure route again, at the earliest opportunity, once Russia gives the Ukraine a chance to recover and supports its economy. You know, like they did in 1991, and then 2004 and then again in 2014.
That more than anything, is what makes the prospect less than enticing.

flamming_python wrote:
But do we want them..?

You could take the chicks at least. Institute polygamy so there would be 2-3 Ukrainian wives for flamming_python - hows that sound

lyle6 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
But do we want them..?

You could take the chicks at least. Institute polygamy so there would be 2-3 Ukrainian wives for flamming_python - hows that sound

Well. Polygamy is not illegal in Russia. Albeit it's not recognized either

lyle6 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
But do we want them..?

You could take the chicks at least. Institute polygamy so there would be 2-3 Ukrainian wives for flamming_python - hows that sound

The Ukrainian females are not what you see in the movies

Also they are all egotistical Nazi bitches

PapaDragon wrote:
The Ukrainian females are not what you see in the movies

Also they are all egotistical Nazi bitches

Pssh. Nothing a bottle of vodka and some healthy dose of domestic violence can't solve

FP is right... there are going to be trust issues with a country that just turns on you so easily... how can you trust them again... and if you can't then why help them rebuild?

They are the wests experiment, let them make it right.

Pssh. Nothing a bottle of vodka and some healthy dose of domestic violence can't solve

I realise you are joking but the solution to crazy people is don't get involved in the first place.... there are a lot of lonely people out there for you to waste time on the nutters.

More importantly domestic violence normally ends with a death and it is not always the one that metes out the violence.

I mean they are used to the stab in the back method of being a neighbour already...  

Azi wrote:

But if they come back, please let the western shitpart of Ukraine where it belongs to...Poland, Mordor...

You can take my part any moment, and for free
That is the case here. What remains of Ukraine, is hardly needed to anyone.
It is drained already by a maximal factor by everyone, starting from Russia.
There is no general store in Poland with no Ukrainian staff.
And that are not only young people, but some of them are also in their late 50s. Practically everyone who is brave and mobile enough to leave, already left.

Kaliningrad enclave solves that issue and covers most of the loudest barking dogs out there.

lyle6 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
The Ukrainian females are not what you see in the movies

Also they are all egotistical Nazi bitches

Pssh. Nothing a bottle of vodka and some healthy dose of domestic violence can't solve

Not worth the calories required for domestic violence

Let them rot

Modern Ukraine is invention of Soviet-era, Putin claims, saying new country was created ‘at expense’ of historical Russian lands

https://www.rt.com/russia/529006-putin-ukraine-invention-soviet-era/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com&utm_campaign=dbr

At least Putin states what we all have been saying as is.

Yeah, rt fucking sucks and I dunno why it's tolerated.

kvs wrote:

The Kiev regime is threatening to ethnically cleans the Russian population of Crimea when it recovers the "occupied territories".
Andrei Reznik, the Vice Premier and Minister for Re-integration of Occupied Territories asserted on TV.    

This scumbag and his scumbag regime better pray that karma misses them.

I don't think they realize that spewing this shit digs them a deeper hole.