Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

Why does the AL-41F lack serrated nozzles?

GarryB wrote:India said it wasn't interested in joint development of a new stealth fighter based on the Su-57 like they did with the Su-30MK.

I would assume that would mean they would just buy export Su-57s when they become available... the equivalent of just buying Su-35s instead of going to the cost and effort of developing the Su-30MKI.

The Checkmate is for export only at the moment so I suspect it will get a rather hard sell, and its costs in terms of buying them and operating them could lead to a lot of countries not bothering with any other platform, but a few countries might want to take advantage of the related design between the Su-57 and Su-75 and buy a few super fighters and use the Checkmate as a numbers fighter to fill out the gaps and give density to their air power.

The new MiGs will be interesting but it might be quite a while before we hear anything about them because they will let the Checkmate have its chance to sell to foreign customers first... the way they did in the late 1980s and early 1990s with the Mi-28A and the Ka-50.

I really think the chances of getting a 5th gen light fighter to do the role of an A-10 or Su-25 is just pushing things way too far... they already tried with the A-16, and the air to ground MiG-29... but they were not the same as a real dedicated CAS aircraft.

I really don't think so, the Su-57 will be a kind of analogue of the F-22 that was not exported, I don't think it will be sold outside except in very large countries like China or India.
China is capable of developing its own fleet of aircraft, therefore they would not need this aircraft, perhaps they would buy a small quantity as they did with the Su-35.

India, for its part, could later buy an export version when its Su-30MKIs are reaching the end of their operational life, but I don't think that will be before 15 years, which will also be necessary to manufacture at least 20 squadrons for the needs from Russia's own Air Force
Iran this has more than enough with Su-35 and later Su-75

The reform of the Russian Armed Forces was very clear, each combined arms army will be assigned a fighter regiment (Su-57), a bomber regiment (Su-34) and a helicopter brigade (Ka-52, Mi-28 , Mi-8, Mi-26)
In addition there will be several regiments of Mig-31 or its successor
the third squadron in the aircraft regiments would be composed of Su-35 in case of the Su-57 and MiG-31 regiments as in Khotilovo or Vladvostok and Su-25 or its successor in the Su-34 regiments
Probably every fleet/naval army corps will have Su-30SM and Su-75 in the long run

Well, actually if I see a regiment of Su-57 in Belarus as a member of the Union state or directly entering the Russian Federation.
Maybe Kazakhstan, if it behaves well, will also end up receiving the Su-57, although I doubt it.

Some news about Su57s bieng delivered by UAC recently just came out. But no mention of the Izd.30 engine is bieng made. Last time Saturn NPO said they were done and testing on the Su57 was done too. But now they just stopped doing anything more. The recently delivered Su57s were shipped with AL41F1s sadly.

Export version will be downgraded anyway.

It's better to buy su-75 which is cheaper.

Also countries that can afford such aircraft want now to be involved in such projects. They don't want to just buy it but buy the local production or the option to integrate their own systems and weapons. If it wasn't designed with this in mind they won't find many customers.

Su-30 doesn't exist as an aircraft. It's more a project that a client can adapt for its use which then gives a MKI, MKM, MK2...

Swgman_BK wrote:Some news about Su57s bieng delivered by UAC recently just came out. But no mention of the Izd.30 engine is bieng made. Last time Saturn NPO said they were done and testing on the Su57 was done too. But now they just stopped doing anything more. The recently delivered Su57s were shipped with AL41F1s sadly.

Yes, why are they taking so long on the Izd 30? I also recall UAC saying it's ready. Unless these ones released to Russia is from contract without the IZD 30 engines?

Why does the AL-41F lack serrated nozzles?

Probably focusing on other aspects of its design and as it wont be fitted to actual stealth aircraft like the Su-57M or the S-70 wingman drone they possibly saved some money by giving it a conventional nozzle.

I really don't think so, the Su-57 will be a kind of analogue of the F-22 that was not exported, I don't think it will be sold outside except in very large countries like China or India.

Wait... what?

You think Russia copies everything the US does so the Su-57 is going to be super expensive and not exported and the Su-75 will promise to be cheap and affordable and instead be super expensive and something Russia has to force other countries to buy?

Why do you think that?

Especially when their export agency shows the Su-57E on the first page of their site for exports to the rest of the world...

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/

Su-57E
Perspective multirole fighter
Multifunctional 5th generation aircraft system for execution of a wide range of combat tasks

Unique features of the 5th generation fighter provide covertness of combat operation due to low signature level in the radar field, ensure continued supersonic cruise flight, solve the whole range of fighter and strike tasks that are assigned on tactical aviation.

Su-57E Perspective multirole fighter is designed for execution of a wide range of combat tasks while operating against aerial, ground and surface targets day-and-night with the use of the up-to-date progressive guided and unguided weaponry.

The fighter is equipped with the most advanced avionics suite, armament and self-defense complexes. Advanced intelligent support of the fighter and high level of automation ensure effective piloting of the aircraft and execution of the whole range of combat tasks with one pilot.

Learn more about Su-57E fighter

e-mail: roe@roe.ru

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/fighters/su-57e/

Does that look like a fighter at the end of its production run with the tooling destroyed so no more aircraft can be made?

India, for its part, could later buy an export version when its Su-30MKIs are reaching the end of their operational life, but I don't think that will be before 15 years, which will also be necessary to manufacture at least 20 squadrons for the needs from Russia's own Air Force

If China is making its own stealth fighters you can be sure India will want something to counter that, not to mention if India breaks out of that military boondoggle with Australia and the US etc and the US takes it personally and starts BS in Pakistan or Bangladesh...

The recently delivered Su57s were shipped with AL41F1s sadly.

The Su-57 was never intended to be launched into serial production with the new engines... the improved engine was always supposed to be added later in the life of the aircraft when improvements and add-on features had added weight to the aircraft requiring more engine power to retain or improve performance.

Export version will be downgraded anyway.

It's better to buy su-75 which is cheaper.

Very true but the Su-75 has not even flown yet...

Also countries that can afford such aircraft want now to be involved in such projects. They don't want to just buy it but buy the local production or the option to integrate their own systems and weapons. If it wasn't designed with this in mind they won't find many customers.

Sadly you talk about stupid countries... India wanting a partnership developing essentially a Su-57MKI was stupid... because they would likely only build 250 to 400 of them at most and their participation would make an affordable aircraft horribly expensive... not to mention a decade to discussion terms and prices...

It would make more sense to buy 200 Su-57s and then decide which light 5th gen to make... whether it is the Sukhoi Su-75 or the new single engined MiG 5th gen type, which they could make in India in large numbers... it could be their new MiG-21 but fully multirole capable...

Su-30 doesn't exist as an aircraft. It's more a project that a client can adapt for its use which then gives a MKI, MKM, MK2...

For India it is their Frankenstein to appease their western partners with expensive parts for their cheap Russian plane... expensive, but not as expensive as the eye watering Rafales they likely can't buy more than 40 or so of.

For Russia the Su-30 is a two seat Su-35 and actually a quite valuable aircraft.

@Backman... why so harsh?

Lots of rumour and innuendo around on the interweb, so a comment here to get a sensible view is to be expected...

Probably focusing on other aspects of its design and as it wont be fitted to actual stealth aircraft like the Su-57M or the S-70 wingman drone they possibly saved some money by giving it a conventional nozzle.

You're claiming the current Su-57 isnt "actual stealth"? I thought it was a fully stealthy aircraft with IR signature mitigation measures.

Russia should export Su-75 and not Su-57. I agree with AMCXXL.
The US should never again be able to acquire Russian aircraft as it did with the MiG-29 and Su-27.
The only one that was lucky was the MiG-31.

You're claiming the current Su-57 isnt "actual stealth"? I thought it was a fully stealthy aircraft with IR signature mitigation measures.

I am saying there is reduced signature aircraft and there is hard core retard stealth.

The US goes for the latter and they are expensive to buy and expensive to operate.

Russia is interested in stealth as a feature that makes an aircraft or drone or missile more useful and more effective but does not make it too expensive to use or too valuable to lose.

Over the life of the aircraft it will receive lots of upgrades and improvements and honestly thrust vectoring nozzles would be more useful than jagged edged ones.

BTW the engine nozzles of US aircraft are jagged and they are no invisible enough to be used in contested airspace... in Syria or the Ukraine...

The US should never again be able to acquire Russian aircraft as it did with the MiG-29 and Su-27.
The only one that was lucky was the MiG-31.

The MiG-31 was totally compromised and the result was the BM upgrade to negate the effect...

Personally I don't think they should sell the Su-57 to anyone else, but it is Sukhoi and they are a money making machine...

Instead of an export version I would much prefer to see a carrier based model instead.

limb wrote:
You're claiming the current Su-57 isnt "actual stealth"? I thought it was a fully stealthy aircraft with IR signature mitigation measures.

nothing is invisible

GarryB wrote:I am saying there is reduced signature aircraft and there is hard core retard stealth.

The US goes for the latter and they are expensive to buy and expensive to operate.

When the USAF sent out the F-22 to shoot down the Chinese balloon that was flying over US airspace, the news had a special where they talked about the cost per hour of the Raptor and said it was $80K/hour of flight!  Imagine the service fleet of F-22s and how much they must pay to keep whatever number of aircraft they have operational at that rate!  They also said that the F-35 was $40K/hour which I would think is the average and that the STOVL B-model is probably more expensive to maintain because of all the gadgetry it has compared to the other 2 with the C carrier model a close second.  Just crazy expensive.

GaryB wrote:BTW the engine nozzles of US aircraft are jagged and they are no invisible enough to be used in contested airspace... in Syria or the Ukraine...

That's interesting.  Where did you get that info out of simple curiosity?

Why would it be very expensive to produce serrated nozzles for the al41

AMCXXL wrote:

limb wrote:
You're claiming the current Su-57 isnt "actual stealth"? I thought it was a fully stealthy aircraft with IR signature mitigation measures.

nothing is invisible

But serrated nozzles are FAR SUPERIOR to conventional nozzles

nothing is invisible

[/quote]

But serrated nozzles are FAR SUPERIOR to conventional nozzles[/quote]

They may have a bit lower RCS and smaller IR signature but one can't have 3D thrust vectoring and power loss when compared to round nozzle is in the range 10 to 15 %. These facts are discussed in this forum multiple times during last decade or so. Russians studied them and decided not go for them. Same applies to F-35 too, which is newer design than F-22. Do you get the point?

Aviation is the biggest lie of all the big military industrial complexes in the world.
I guarantee that F-22 and F-35, but also Su-57 or J-20 would fall in Ukraine but in perhaps fewer numbers than fourth-generation aircraft..
Or to put it this way, the Su-27 has a far greater advantage over the MiG-21 or MiG-23 than the Su-57 will EVER have over the Su-35S. The same goes for American planes.
Why don't the Russians get close to the skies of Ukroshitstan if the Su-57 is so good or why don't the F-35 or F-22 fly over Ukroshitstan if it is so good.
Most of you believe what both sides say about the fifth generation aircraft "we are afraid that the technology will fall into the wrong hands" even though the only reason for fear is the weakness of aviation.

The next lie that the MAJORITY believes is the use of fifth generation aircraft at low altitude for the sake of "avoiding the enemy's radar and air defense systems". Yeah, great, I'd really like to see how that 10+ ton (plane) monstrosity would avoid modern missiles and air defense systems at low altitude.
The BIGGEST loser in the world after this conflict in Ukroshitstan will be aviation..

I believe more and more that aircraft like this model "Grom" are the future and such aircraft do not have a limiting factor - man. A pilot has a load limit that he cannot exceed, a drone does not.

nothing is invisible

Stealth is like armour... no stealth at all is stupid, but super super super stealth is expensive and not 100% effective either.

You could drive around in a 200 ton land battleship but you wont be invincible... land mines and anti tank weapons will just get bigger but the point is that you wont be able to afford to build and operate more than a couple and if that is all you will have then a couple of Kh-29s is all the other side would need to defeat you... or destroy the huge line of trucks supplying fuel to your vehicles.

Increased stealth is not heavy it is simply more and more expensive on a log like scale, so Russia could make their stealth fighters 250 million dollars each to make and 90K US dollars per hour to operate but that just means the west will work on anti stealth technology and in the end will make all the money spent a waste.

When Russia gets photonic radar in service their B-2 and B-21 and F-35 and F-22 will be very expensive reduced payload versions of the previous generation of aircraft... B-52, B-1B, F-16, F-15.

Spending an enormous amount of money to get the same level of stealth would be stupid and a waste of good money.

They also said that the F-35 was $40K/hour which I would think is the average and that the STOVL B-model is probably more expensive to maintain because of all the gadgetry it has compared to the other 2 with the C carrier model a close second. Just crazy expensive.

And worse for allies, the British said their F-35s on their carriers cost 90K Pounds per hour to run...

Some allies are at risk of having to ground their fleets because their ground crews and pilots are not getting enough hours operational training on the aircraft to remain competent on the aircraft and it is because they are just too expensive to fly.

That's interesting. Where did you get that info out of simple curiosity?

If they were stealthy with their special exhaust nozzles then why doesn't Israel or the US fly their stealth planes over Syria?

US F-35s were detected flying along the Iran Iraq border from Russia by radar that could not detect whether there are sawtooth edges on the engine nozzles or not.

Why would it be very expensive to produce serrated nozzles for the al41

I don't know that it would be, but they don't seem to have bothered.

Maybe they are developing a super stealthy version for war time and are keeping it hidden... a bit like the engine nozzle for the S-70 compared with the stealthy engine exhaust shown only in model form so far.

But serrated nozzles are FAR SUPERIOR to conventional nozzles

Why do you think that?

Superior in what regard?

Why don't the Russians get close to the skies of Ukroshitstan if the Su-57 is so good or why don't the F-35 or F-22 fly over Ukroshitstan if it is so good.

Because not all Soviet air defence systems care about the radar cross section of the target... BUK and Panstir for instance can be optically guided to target and chaff and flares wont to shit to stop them.

Their newer SAMs are even better and while the radar in active radar homing missiles are small they get much much closer than the bigger radars in aircraft.

An S-400 missile will have a radar half the size of the radar in an F-16 but the S-400 can fly at very high speed to the general location of the stealth target and from above (where engine nozzle serrations mean nothing at all) and find and attack the target from very close range.

Most of you believe what both sides say about the fifth generation aircraft "we are afraid that the technology will fall into the wrong hands" even though the only reason for fear is the weakness of aviation.

We already worked that out thanks... look up threads for Turkey and F -35 and S-400 and you will notice that if the US really feared F-35s in combat settings flying close to S-400s might result in the radar signature of the F-35 being captured and somehow sent to Moscow for developing countermeasures totally ignores the fact that Russian owned and operated S-400 missiles and radars in Syria are free to examine Israeli F-35s in combat loadouts on actual missions and they would get that data directly without any secret transmissions to Moscow.

Obviously Turkey can't have both for several reasons... to punish them for buying Russian, to prevent Turkey seeing how not stealthy their expensive new stealth fighters are, and to try to sell Patriots instead.

The BIGGEST loser in the world after this conflict in Ukroshitstan will be aviation..

I would say it is total confirmation that the Soviets and the Russians got it right... air power is useful but don't put all your eggs into the aviation basket...

I believe more and more that aircraft like this model "Grom" are the future and such aircraft do not have a limiting factor - man. A pilot has a load limit that he cannot exceed, a drone does not.

People act like drones are new, but really what is an air to air missile if not a suicide drone... an anti tank missile... a cruise missile... an anti ship missile.

Drones are progressing but are not ideal for a lot of missions still.

The AL-41 will most likely only be used for the first two dozen Su-57s before being replaced by the Idz.30, so there is no point in spending time, money and resources creating a variant with serrated nozzles that will be produced in minimal quantities.

The hilarious thing is people think putting sharp pointy edges around the engine nozzle will suddenly make the aircraft invisible from the rear... maybe for an F-22 with no IRST, but for most other aircraft those points don't mean squat.

At some frequencies those corners might even act like corner reflectors and increase the radar return rather than reduce it.

Russia tested both serrated and flat nozzles for decades. Pictures can be seen online everywhere.

The issue has always been:
- cost vs benefit.

I know Russia been testing a while now radar skin which is using photons, and other photonic tech. That will reduce stealth to zero.

Thank you, Garry.
Finally, we explained to each other what I keep writing, which is that air defense has an advantage over aviation.
Russia's investment in massive numbers of missile brigades re-armed with the S-400 was PRIMARY objective No. 1 and quite possibly Russia's single most expensive defense project.
Add to that the huge amount of produced short and medium range systems and everything becomes even clearer...
Russia is not the best in planes or surface warships, but in terms of missile technology, it is still unrivaled.

Hypersonic weapons are aviation's greatest adversary.
We should not forget that a few years ago the Russians announced that in the near future they will have hypersonic missiles with a range greater than 5000 km, that is, it is certain that even more powerful hypersonic missiles will appear than the existing ones.

Finally, we explained to each other what I keep writing, which is that air defense has an advantage over aviation.

You can say that but I wouldn't.

I would say aviation is very valuable, but is a limitation when it is all you have.

The best situation is to have air defence and air power at the same time that works together to deal with anything the enemy has.

Russia's investment in massive numbers of missile brigades re-armed with the S-400 was PRIMARY objective No. 1 and quite possibly Russia's single most expensive defense project.

S-400 and S-300 before it are expensive though so newer missiles like S-350 make sense that make the weapons smaller and cheaper but still very capable and they will continue to introduce new systems all the time to create overlapping layers of defence systems including guns and even lasers and jammers at the short range edge up to aircraft and long range missiles at the other end of the spectrum.

Russia is not the best in planes or surface warships, but in terms of missile technology, it is still unrivaled.

I would say Russia has some of the best planes too, just not in the enormous numbers two other countries have them in.

Hypersonic weapons are aviation's greatest adversary.

Hypersonic weapons are tools that make aviation more potent and safer... a MiG-31K doesn't need to get very close to the ships it sinks with a Kinzhal missile as a weapon.

We should not forget that a few years ago the Russians announced that in the near future they will have hypersonic missiles with a range greater than 5000 km, that is, it is certain that even more powerful hypersonic missiles will appear than the existing ones.

Of course and one of the large hypersonic missiles they were talking about was an 11m long missile with a two stage design for the Blackjack to carry with a range of 12,000km or more.

Such weapons will make the PAK DA and Tu-160 into very potent attack platforms whether they have conventional or nuke warheads.

I always wondered why Russia didnt go back to using Plasma stealth for their 5th gen jet. It worked on the Mig MFI. It consumed a lot of energy but detection during testing was reduced to less 20% at ranges of over 300km. For a F15 or Su27, this is a 100% detection rate zone.

Because it is a two way issue... it blocks incoming radar waves, but also outgoing radar waves, so while you are tricky to spot, you can't see much yourself... which puts you in an awkward position if they use IR to detect you and IR guided missiles to engage you...

Plasma stealth is most efficient inside exotic gasses so the radome of the aircraft normally had a container full of these exotic gasses inside it... you already pump lots of electrical power to the radar so you can have a switch so the power either goes to the radar or the plasma container... you would never use both at the same time.

Russia has solved the opaque plasma problem actually.
Would be impossible for Kinzhal, Zircon to hunt ships otherwise.