Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

Andrey Martyanov commented on his blog that SU-57 upgrade package would include also ROFAR radar in addition with Izd.-30 engine. However, no source of information was included in the claim. Has anyone of you heard somewhere else information about ROFAR installation on SU-57?

The Su-57M won't have ROFAR.

lancelot wrote:The Su-57M won't have ROFAR.

ROFAR is probably a distant future after all?

they talked about it for 10 fucking years and said they tested prototypes, but the PIC production facility has to start 1st which is stated somewhere in 2024.

Even without ROFAR, N036 is pretty inovative in terms of architecture.

Yes it is. The Su-57 has the most sophisticated sensor suite of any current fighter aircraft.
N036 is only expected to be surpassed when GaN radar enters service in frontline aircraft.

15 November 2023, 08:50

“Product/Izdeliye-30” endowed the Su-57 with a number of important advantages


@ Marina Lystseva/TASS

Text: Andrey Rezchikov

The Russian fifth-generation fighter Su-57 began to be equipped with a second-stage engine (“Product 30”). One of its main features is that it allows you to reach supersonic speed without turning on the afterburner. This not only reduces fuel consumption, but also increases the combat radius of the aircraft. What other advantages does the Su-57 get from the Izdeliye 30?

The fifth-generation fighter Su-57 will begin to be equipped with a second-stage engine (“Product 30”) as part of the current batch produced under a contract with the Ministry of Defense. According to the Rostec state corporation, the aircraft is now undergoing flight tests with a second-stage engine - the most modern technologies are being introduced into the aircraft.

“Efficiency continues to improve. As for power plants, the Su-57 aircraft is adapted to use both the first and second stage engines,” the company’s press service said.

Su-57 is a fifth-generation multirole fighter with advanced electronics, created by the P.O. Sukhoi to replace the Su-27 heavy fighter and is capable of maneuvering with high overloads. In December 2020, the Russian Aerospace Forces received the first production fighter. The debut flight of the modernized Su-57 took place in December 2022, and its serial deliveries began in the same year. As part of the state armament program, designed until 2027, the Russian Aerospace Forces should receive 76 fifth-generation fighters.

The aircraft currently produced are equipped with intermediate units of the first stage AL-41F1 (“Product 117”), developed by the A. Lyulka Experimental Design Bureau. This engine is fully controlled by a digital system based on domestic components. The engines are installed as standard on the Su-35S.

The first ground launch of the Izdeliye 30 demonstrator engine took place in November 2016 at the Lytkarinsky Machine-Building Plant (LM3). LMZ is a division of the A. Lyulka Design Bureau. In December 2017, the aircraft with the new power plant made its debut 17-minute flight.

Compared to the AL-41F1, the Izdeliye 30’s thrust has been increased from nine (in non-afterburning mode) to 17.5-19.5 tons, and the engine itself is characterized by increased fuel efficiency and reduced life cycle cost. According to the general designer - director of the A. Lyulka Design Bureau, Evgeniy Marchukov, in terms of specific thrust, Product 30 will surpass all foreign analogues.

From the technical features, it is also known that the oxygen-free ignition system on the modernized injectors ensures ignition of the fuel immediately after it enters the combustion chamber, and the new nozzles control the thrust vector. Experts agree that

With the second stage engine, the Su-57 receives a number of undeniable advantages. In addition, this achievement allows Russia to remain among the great powers leading in engine construction.

This engine improves specific performance both in terms of thrust and fuel consumption. There have been reports that the aircraft's visibility indicators may change. But one of the fundamental issues is ensuring supersonic cruising without turning on the afterburner, which will allow you to quickly and covertly reach the limits of weapons use. This is especially important when performing missions over vast areas,” notes Oleg Panteleev, executive director of the Aviaport agency.

Without turning on afterburner, which is also provided on the new product, fuel consumption “will be noticeably lower than with afterburner operation of the engine.” “When performing a mission not at the maximum range, reduced fuel consumption will make it possible to increase ammunition, but we are hardly talking about a serious revision in this parameter. In non-afterburning mode, visibility in the optical and thermal ranges will be significantly lower,” Panteleev emphasizes.

The new engine is more powerful and economical due to the automatic fuel supply control system. It takes into account a variety of parameters, including atmospheric pressure, humidity and flight altitude. “Fine tuning of the second stage engine is the main thing. The non-afterburning mode provides the ability to fly the Su-57 in the entire range of altitudes and speeds,” says Vladimir Popov, Honored Military Pilot of the Russian Federation, Major General.

The interlocutor noted the efforts of the designers and engineers, who managed to reduce the temperature of the exhaust gases, which increases the fighter’s stealth from air defense systems. “The engine works well, it has been tested on a flying laboratory, and has passed bench tests, but it does not yet meet the requirements for infrared stealth in all modes. These parameters need to be stabilized,” the major general emphasized.

Popov admits that saving on fuel will not necessarily mean an increase in the aircraft's carrying capacity: the tanks and bomb bays will remain the same. He recalled that the placement of weapons on the Su-57 should be mostly covert, in certain niches. There are four of these on the Su-57.

“If you use an external sling, then stealth is guaranteed to be lost. Therefore, the ammunition will apparently remain the same, but the flight range and duration are guaranteed to increase, it will be possible to more effectively evade enemy air defense systems and maneuver more,” the speaker is confident.

According to Panteleev, even with the engine of the first stage, the Su-57 can safely be considered a fifth generation of fighters. “The division into generations is a rather arbitrary phenomenon. Currently, the possibilities of integrating the aircraft into weapons systems are coming to the fore, when a fighter, without turning on its radar, receives all the necessary information about the environment in silent mode,” the specialist added.

Popov agrees that the AL-41 and its modifications are an advanced engine, which is also used by the Chinese Air Force and is installed on its most modern fighter, the Chengdu J-20. In the world it is considered to be the fifth generation, although the Chinese military considers it to be the fourth generation. “However, using afterburner increases engine resource consumption. Thermal loads reduce the overall operating mode of the engine by 30% or more,” the expert noted. The interlocutor indicated that

   Americans are still continuing to refine their modern fighters


– twin-engine F-22 Raptor (“Predator”) and single-engine F-35 Lightning II. “The USA says that they have been using fifth-generation machines for a long time. About a thousand of these aircraft have already been produced. But only 30-40% remain combat-ready, in other cases there are delays in operation,” the general recalled.

“In fact, the aircraft could not do everything that was advertised,” Popov pointed out, adding that these aircraft often require repairs to the surface layer that scatters radar waves on the fuselage and wings if the aircraft are stored in the open air.

Panteleev clarifies that “constant work continues on the F-22 and F-35 to improve the basic characteristics.” “But the main question is how many of these vehicles are in the troops,” the expert said. Popov clarifies that Russia is in no hurry to “churn out” the Su-57 so that they do not turn into analogues of 4++ generation fighters.

“It should be a really high-quality new car. That's why we take small steps so as not to tear our pants. And we must take into account that economically we are in quite difficult conditions compared to the United States,” the major general emphasized. –

We have preserved the potential of Soviet combat aviation and with this baggage we are beginning to get back on our feet.”

According to the author of the Telegram channel “Russian Engineer” Alexey Vasiliev, thanks to the engine of the second stage, the Su-57 will still become a full-fledged fifth-generation aircraft, since the AL-41F1 engine “does not have all the necessary parameters in the first batches.” In addition, in the future the new engine can be used for the light tactical aircraft Su-75 (Checkmate).

“And such a machine is extremely needed,” the expert adds, pointing to the trend of reducing the cost and creating mass military equipment, which was especially evident during the Northern Military District. “I expect that all capacities producing lines based on the Su-27 and MiG-29 will be transferred to the production of the Su-75, leaving only existing production for the Su-57,” the analyst admits.

According to him, “this will be very reasonable,” given the interest in the machine not only of the Russian Aerospace Forces, but also of foreign players. “And if a vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft is made on its platform, it will be an excellent answer to the American F-35,” since many countries have a need to cover their expeditionary forces with such machines. “That is, the export potential of the Su-75 with VTOL aircraft may be greater than that of the main version,” Vasiliev concluded.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwigvtWPucmCAxWJhv0HHd_YAccQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fvz.ru%2Fsociety%2F2023%2F11%2F15%2F1239775.html&usg=AOvVaw2_ZxZ125frhzk8mGWK7Hbw&opi=89978449

“Product/Izdeliye-30” endowed the Su-57 with a number of important advantages wrote:

So we will probably see the Izd 30 in the line on the Su-57 by the end of the decade.

Already in further tests with both engines being used and also said the izd30 will be affixed to aircraft of part of the current contract so I'd say 2025 af most we will start seeing them on a few aircraft.

Even the existing "izdeliye 117" engines give 176.6 KN dry thrust (two engines) and 284.4 KN with afterburner.
And with a 5-ton higher maximum allowable take-off weight, the Su-57 is far ahead of the F-35.
The weight of the empty Su-57 is greater than the weight of the empty F-35 by 30.10%.
Dry thrust is higher by 34.43%, while with afterburner the thrust is higher by 39.49%.
It's not ideal, but it's better anyway.

The F-22 is a different story, but it has been out of production for a long time.

The problem is the very slow production of the Su-57. Even when they reach 78 units in 2028, China will have 600 J 20 and the USA will have over 1,000 F-35. It's a chasm.

To Arrow

It is what it is...
Comparing China with Russia is no longer appropriate, those times are long gone.

Russia has only 10% of China's budget (and 10% of the Chinese population) and correspondingly, it is excellently armed.
If only the Su-30SM and Su-35S fighters are in production in Russia (production of the Su-57 has also started), then calculate how big the Russian deficit is in relation to the production of aircraft in China.
Russia has produced a solid number of aircraft along with the Su-34 but China has produced more J-10s than Russia has produced for its air force in the last 20 years. Even without the J-11/15/16/20, just J-10.
I don't understand why you bother with the number of J-20 or F-35?  

I am not thrilled with the F-35 and would not like to comment on that aircraft.

I am not thrilled with the F-35 and would not like to comment on that aircraft. wrote:

Yes, the plane is not that good. The Su-57 is much better, but there will be only a handful of Su-57s and the F-35 will be easily 1,500 pieces from the US alone, plus hundreds more from NATO, if not more.

Of course, China and the USA cannot be compared to Russia. These are completely different leagues. Russia was out of this game...

To Arrow.....

Don't worry, for Russia, the thousands of nuclear warheads it has in its arsenal are a greater guarantor of its security and survival than the Su-57.
I ask you one question; would you prefer Russia to have 2000 Su-57 aircraft but without (zero) nuclear warheads ?
I wouldn't, my friend - at any cost !  

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the current volume of the state order for the Su-57.

I expect the order to increase once the Su-57M is in serial production. The Russians will have to replace the strike flankers with the Su-57.
Even if they only replace the Su-30 and Su-27 with it initially this will be approximately 160+101 i.e. 171 aircraft that need replacement.
Assuming that the order for 78 aircraft will remain static is thus a mistake. That would not even cover the replacement of the Su-27 still in service.

Due to improved automation, the single seater Su-57M can do the same operations as the dual seater Su-30 when originally designed, without any loss in responsiveness.

Right now they have one production line making the Su-57 and two making the Su-35. I expect that to eventually be two lines making the Su-57 and one making the Su-35. I also question the idea of upgrading the Su-30 with modern equipment and Al-41 engine. Given the current lack of pilots in the RuAF, they should just replace the Su-30 with the Su-57M. Those production facilities should just be switched to producing the Su-57.

They also need to develop a twin seater Su-57. And a replacement for the Su-34 and Tu-22M3 in the tactical bomber role.

Wtf is even being discussed here?

Number of planes? Has anyone here been watching the Ukraine War?

You can have thousands of planes and your going to lose them in defended airspace

If the US or China went into Ukraine, they would lose the same amount of fighters , and they'd employ them in the same vein , at long stand off ranges

It makes no sense what people write about here

Those days are long gone, you don't need 200 stealth fighters to invade a low defended 3rd world state

Russia did Syria with a regiment of bombers , so it proves you don't need so many fighters

Ukraine is a perfect testing ground, and Russia has not had any problems with numbers

So these analysis are invalid

Arkanghelsk wrote:You can have thousands of planes and your going to lose them in defended airspace
If the US or China went into Ukraine, they would lose the same amount of fighters , and they'd employ them in the same vein, at long stand off ranges
...
Those days are long gone, you don't need 200 stealth fighters to invade a low defended 3rd world state
Russia did Syria with a regiment of bombers , so it proves you don't need so many fighters
Ukraine is a perfect testing ground, and Russia has not had any problems with numbers

The Su-30 and Su-27 are obsolete. You could do massive upgrades on them. Like the planned Su-30SM2 upgrade. But once you have to give new engines to the aircraft, and replace all the electronics, you will probably find out you will come close to the cost of a whole new aircraft. The Su-35 is a lot better than either those aircraft. But it costs basically the same as the Su-57. So why bother continuing to buy more Su-35s once the Su-57 design has matured.

Then, like I said, you have the fact the Su-57 does the same missions as the Su-30 with half the crew. That means you can have twice the aircraft with the same amount of pilots. And if the plane gets shot down and the crew gets killed, you only lose one of them instead of two.

Of course Russia does not need thousands of manned planes. But they will need to eventually replace all the Flankers. Starting with the Su-30 and Su-27 which are the oldest of the bunch.

The frontline tactical attack and bomber aircraft like the Su-25 and some of the Su-34s need to be replaced with autonomous or semi-autonomous drones. This could either be a drone version of the Su-75, the Okhotnik, Grom, or a mix of all these platforms. The Su-25 pilots would be moved to the Su-75. Which would provide increased coverage of the airspace near NATO.

But Russia will still need a Su-34 and Tu-22M3 replacement in the tactical bomber role. This would be an airframe suited for the bomber role, instead of agile combat. The limited amount of internal storage on the Su-57 airframe for weapons carriage would need to be expanded. And by making the design rely on the Izdeliye 30 engine from the onset, would mean you could put a lot more payload and fuel on the airframe. These aircraft would be the backline missile launchers. And in case the opponent lacks viable air defense, would be used for straight up bombing of targets.

However that will take a long time to develop. So the Su-34 should be upgraded to improve its survivability. It needs to have MAWS like on the Su-35. the ECM needs to be improved. The sensor suite needs to improve as well so you can at least spot MANPADS and short range air defenses plus strike them while outside their attack envelope. The Su-34M already does most of this. So I think the upgrade needs to be rolled out to the entire fleet ASAP.

Even the existing "izdeliye 117" engines give 176.6 KN dry thrust (two engines) and 284.4 KN with afterburner. wrote:

This seems highly improbable. The Izd 117 (AL41F1) cannot give 284KN. It actually gives around 160KN with the afterburner on. The most powerful Turbofan Russia has that can go in a fighter jet is the AMNTK Soyuz R579-300 (Tumansky in short). It makes somewhere between 220-230KN with the Afterburner and around 180KN dry thrust.

Podlodka77 wrote:To Arrow.....

Don't worry, for Russia, the thousands of nuclear warheads it has in its arsenal are a greater guarantor of its security and survival than the Su-57.
I ask you one question; would you prefer Russia to have 2000 Su-57 aircraft but without (zero) nuclear warheads ?
I wouldn't, my friend - at any cost !  

Of course, the nuclear arsenal is essential. Russia should have abandoned START long ago and increased its strategic weapons limit well below the very low number of 1,500 warheads, which will not even cover all U.S. targets.

N036 is only expected to be surpassed when GaN radar enters service in frontline aircraft. wrote:

The question is who will be the first to create an airborne AESA radar on GaN modules? Perhaps Russia will deploy such a radar? Is the West already on land radars?

Swgman_BK wrote:

This seems highly improbable. The Izd 117 (AL41F1) cannot give 284KN. It actually gives around 160KN with the afterburner on. The most powerful Turbofan Russia has that can go in a fighter jet is the AMNTK Soyuz R579-300 (Tumansky in short). It makes somewhere between 220-230KN with the Afterburner and around 180KN dry thrust.

284KN for both engines....
I first wrote dry thrust for two engines combined, so it is logical that written afterburner thrust is for both engines - combined..



To Lancelot...

The Russians do not think like you because if the production of the Su-30SM aircraft stops, then there is a great chance that "Irkut" will be shut down as well.
This was exactly the reason to produce as many as three platforms based on the Su-27; Su-30SM (Irkut), Su-34 (NAPO) and Su-35S (KNAAZ).
However, it was previously planned that "Irkut" would switch to the production of passenger planes. There should also be no problem for NAPO because the production of UCAV type "Ohotnik" is planned there. There is nothing to talk about about KNAAZ, because it is certainly the aircraft production company that stands the best.

On the other hand, Arrow is right that China already has a decently large fleet of J-20s and is much further along with its fifth generation light fighter than Russia. Everything is known about the light fighter in the West and it is also represented in decent numbers.
And if both the US and China progress faster with the development and production of new platforms, then it is clear who has the problem.

The production of advanced weapon systems that were designed back in the USSR went very well, but this is not the case with the systems that were designed by Russia after the collapse of the USSR.
Russia's biggest and most notorious problem was and remains the introduction of new platforms into production, ranging from tanks and armored vehicles, through submarines and frigates, to aircraft.

Podlodka77 wrote:The Russians do not think like you because if the production of the Su-30SM aircraft stops, then there is a great chance that "Irkut" will be shut down as well.
This was exactly the reason to produce as many as three platforms based on the Su-27; Su-30SM (Irkut), Su-34 (NAPO) and Su-35S (KNAAZ).
However, it was previously planned that "Irkut" would switch to the production of passenger planes. There should also be no problem for NAPO because the production of UCAV type "Ohotnik" is planned there. There is nothing to talk about about KNAAZ, because it is certainly the aircraft production company that stands the best.

KNAAZ (su-35 and su57 producer) also produces the superjet passenger planes.

As for IRKUT, from my understanding the civilian assembly line for the MC-21 is completely independent from that of the Su-30SM.

I do not believe they need to close the fighter production line there.
They could also consider having the production line for the Su-75 instead of in KNAAZ, after the su-30SM production ends.

As far as the okhotnik drone, good for NAPO, but it believe that once the Su-34 production stops there will be already its replacement based on the su-57.

But I do not believe it will happen so soon.

To Rodion...

Opening a production line for the Su-57 outside KNAAZ makes sense in case Russia receives large orders for the aircraft from a foreign client.
Until then, let KNAAZ work on the Su-57 (alongside the Su-35S), NAPO work on the Su-34 and S-70, and SOKOL - oh boy, the plane that everyone would like is the PAK-DP.
And with the PAK-DP aircraft, the MiG would be the meanest mutherfucker again..