Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

Anybody else wonder how different fiberglass-Carbon based RAM is? That is what the Su57 uses making it unique in this aspect. Its not painted on either. The panels are made out of it and it needs 0 maintenance and air conditioned hangars. Its not baked in either like the F35. The airplane is made out of it. Infact no other jet uses this solution.. What do you estimate to be the benefits over conventional RAM that is heavily based on metallic compositions.

I am genuinely interested in finding out how well it works..

Reminder for folks: the F-22 has a one dimensional nozzle: up/down. vertical dimension.

True, but with two engines you can use them differentially to create roll which means they are 2D.

The engines in the MiG-29OVT which can move up and down and sideways are 3D because they can effect pitch and roll and yaw.

Anybody else wonder how different fiberglass-Carbon based RAM is? That is what the Su57 uses making it unique in this aspect. Its not painted on either. The panels are made out of it and it needs 0 maintenance and air conditioned hangars. Its not baked in either like the F35. The airplane is made out of it. Infact no other jet uses this solution.. What do you estimate to be the benefits over conventional RAM that is heavily based on metallic compositions.

Most of the expense of operating the F-35 and B-2 and F-22 is the RAM coating. To check electronics and equipment you have to sand off the RAM around the access panel you want to open. The edges are taped as are the screws that hold the panel in place so you sand down to the tape and pull the tape off and undo the screws and remove the panel and check the equipment inside and fix or replace anything that needs fixing or replacing. Then you reinstall the panel and screw in the screws and then cover the panel joint and the screw heads with tape and then you spray a new coating of RAM to the correct thickness and consistency and leave it to cure before you can fly again. If the problem is minor I would say most of the time you would leave it till something important fails and you fix a few things at one time.

For a fighter like an Su-57 having the panels made out of essentially RAM simplifies things... the other solution would be to make the panels as big as you possibly can to reduce the number of joints.

The Russians have the advantage of looking at the experience of the US with stealth aircraft and learning from that.

In comparison the Americans don't seem to think they can learn anything from anyone.

I am genuinely interested in finding out how well it works..

Like many things it is a question of direction rather than raw performance.

Quite a few decades ago military experts decided that gun launched missiles would be amazing... the low cost of a gun round with the range and precision of a missile... the US Navy recently tried again on their Zumwalt destroyers... it is such a good idea.

Basically France and the US and the Soviets went ahead with the idea at the time, the French quickly realised their 142mm weapon was not going to be cheap and canceled, while the Americans and Soviets continued. The Americans ended up with the Sheridan and a 152mm gun armed M60 variant with the Shillelagh missile. It was amazing on paper and was taken into combat and has never recorded a kill. They built the missile and then created a gun to launch the missile so the gun was a dog and only really any good for launching the missile.

The Soviet approach was different, and the west will claim it was because their guns were terribly inaccurate so they needed missiles to compensate. The reality is that targets 5km can move so even the most accurate gun can miss anyway. A guided missile can compensate for any movements of the target by manouvering on the way and still hit the target.

Fundamentally the US and French wanted a missile firing super tank, but what the Russians wanted was a missile that could be launched from any of their tanks main guns and they would only carry 4-8 missiles for use against targets at extreme range or perhaps even against helicopters. The Russian missile was inferior to the US missile in most respects... but it worked. Later models further improved speed and penetration and became a very potent system.

The point is that Russia did try to develop missile tanks... the IT-1 and IT-2 was essentially what the 152mm gun armed M60 was attempting to be but both countries realised that an APC with ATGMs was much cheaper and faster and more mobile and the missiles were rather more effective too.

With ERA the first models were not amazing but they were cheap and added rather more protection than they added weight to a vehicle so adding 5 tons of weight added the equivalent of 30 tons of protection lets say. Later models of ERA became even more effective and also had an effect on kinetic rounds as well so its performance improved over time.

Building RAM into material is a clever idea and will make it lighter and cheaper and easier to maintain... I rather suspect part of the reason the west keeps its aircraft in hangars is because they need air conditioned temperature controlled places to keep their fragile planes... new structures and materials will change the way things work.

Building RAM into material is a clever idea and will make it lighter and cheaper and easier to maintain... I rather suspect part of the reason the west keeps its aircraft in hangars is because they need air conditioned temperature controlled places to keep their fragile planes... new structures and materials will change the way things work. wrote:

Initially I doubted the effectiveness of it. Not like it doesnt work but I used to think it doesnt work as well as conventional RAM which is very metallic in nature. I was just wondering how much in Reflections it really reduces or absorbs.. And which range of frequencies it is effective against.. I feel like it might be responsible for 50% of the RCS reduction.. But thats just my opinion. The SU57 is likely very low observable without RAM. At least to around 1-2m²

Swgman_BK wrote:

Initially I doubted the effectiveness of it. Not like it doesnt work but I used to think it doesnt work as well as conventional RAM which is very metallic in nature. I was just wondering how much in Reflections it really reduces or absorbs.. And which range of frequencies it is effective against.. I feel like it might be responsible for 50% of the RCS reduction.. But thats just my opinion. The SU57 is likely very low observable without RAM. At least to around 1-2m²

RAM carbon fiber also has the advantage of being like moss from the forest. Which in simple terms means that radio waves "run" through it and can no longer get back inidet and those that do come back are distorted and (perhaps) being misread by the search radar algorithms. (I imagine not all of them and only on one part of the frequency), but if you add it all up the RCS goes down and by a lot.

Swgman_BK wrote:I am genuinely interested in finding out how well it works..

These planes are involved in strikes in Ukraine - and so far none of them have been shot down. And you can be sure that Ukraine and all of NATO are doing everything possible to shoot down at least one. But they still can't.

The state defense order for the supply of Su-57 fighters doubled in 2023, said Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC, part of Rostec), on the Rossiya 24 TV channel.

https://radiosputnik.ru/20231226/istrebitel-1918204804.html

In other words, eight serial aircraft were delivered to the VKS in 2023.

Scorpius wrote:

In other words, eight serial aircraft were delivered to the VKS in 2023.

How many Su-57s does VKS have now?

So what 18 su57 now?

Arkanghelsk wrote:So what 18 su57 now?

10 prototypes
14 serial

Next year, 10 or 12 aircraft will presumably be delivered (if there have been no changes in production plans).

Scorpius wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:So what 18 su57 now?

10 prototypes
14 serial

Next year, 10 or 12 aircraft will presumably be delivered (if there have been no changes in production plans).

production/deliveries:

2019 - 1 (crashed)
2020 - 1
2021 - 2
2022 - 6
2023 - 8
total - 17 in service, enough for the first combat squadron

from next year 12 every year

you need 8 regiments = 16 squadrons at least (I have the doubt of Kaliningrad), the rest will have MiG-31/Su-35 until PAK-DP arrives

I bet the first should be in Dzemgi, the same that happened with Su-35 in 2013-2014.
Then will be easy and quick replace the engines when iz.30 is available

The second and the third regiments should be: one in the South MD (Krymsk ?) and one in new Leningrad MD, probably a new regiment


about the 10 "prototypes", at least half a dozen are in Akhtunisnk with combat status , and have missions in Special Military Operation

AMCXXL wrote:

Scorpius wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:So what 18 su57 now?

10 prototypes
14 serial

Next year, 10 or 12 aircraft will presumably be delivered (if there have been no changes in production plans).

production/deliveries:

2019 - 1 (crashed)
2020 - 1
2021 - 2
2022 - 6
2023 - 8
total - 17 in service, enough for the first combat squadron

from next year 12 every year

you need 8 regiments = 16 squadrons at least (I have the doubt of Kaliningrad), the rest will have MiG-31/Su-35 until PAK-DP arrives

I bet the first should be in Dzemgi, the same that happened with Su-35 in 2013-2014.
Then will be easy and quick replace the engines when iz.30 is available

The second and the third regiments should be: one in the South MD (Krymsk ?) and one in new Leningrad MD, probably a new regiment


about the 10 "prototypes", at least half a dozen are in Akhtunisnk with combat status , and have missions in Special Military Operation

If 6 prototype are in combat status, we can say 17+6 = 23 active combat aircraft

TMA1 wrote:These new gen aircraft are so quick to take off and land it is incredible. Not only this but because of the power, the FBI controls and thrust vectoring they are extremely safe to fly. With the izd30 coming I bet this wnd the su-75 would be able to finally use ski jump carriers with optimum fuels loads and weapons loads. These new aircraft would not need assisted takeoff. The best designs imo for new carriers is for one single catapult for early warning and command aircraft and refuelers, while the newest fighters could simply use the ski jump.

I would not ski jump into conclusions if I were you.
Also Su-57 will either have to improve on its declared M version characteristics very quickly or speed up its development cycle to the M2 version with significant upgrades to RCS, radar, Ai, integration, weapon suite.

Arkanghelsk wrote:

If 6 prototype are in combat status, we can say 17+6 = 23 active combat aircraft

6 Su-57 escorted Putin 4 years ago, this airplanes are for test, and of course were tested in Syria, and now in Ukraine, but are not part of Air Force combat units
I suppose the rest of protptypes are in other place , the Dzemgi factory , Zhukovsky etc...

Akhtubisk Air Force unit has its own airplanes with red numbers in two digits

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/19644585

2 VKS connected folks reportedly told TASS that starting in 2024 all produced Su-57s will receive AL-51s.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4789177.html

bmpd say 11 delivered in 2023 , and previously other 11 ?? since 2019 included the first crashed

From the bmpd side, we point out that the now transferred batch of Su-57 fighters has become the second known delivery of them this year and is a continuation of the implementation of the contract concluded in June 2019 by the Russian Ministry of Defense with PJSC Sukhoi Company for the supply of a total of 76 serial ones to the Armed Forces Su-57 fighters (including the first two aircraft separately contracted in 2018), with a contract deadline of 2027. The first batch of Su-57s produced by KnAAZ in 2023 was announced delivered on September 28.

By the end of 2022, 11 production Su-57 fighters were built under this contract, of which, after the loss of the lead aircraft on December 24, 2019 at the final stage of factory testing, the Russian Aerospace Forces received ten aircraft. Including KnAAZ in 2020-2021 transferred four Su-57 aircraft to the Russian Aerospace Forces, and in 2022 - six more (two in May and four in December). Apparently, in total, about 11 Su-57 aircraft were delivered to the Russian Aerospace Forces in 2023.

then about 21 in service, the first regiment can be formed with about 15

The sources linked above indicating the start of deliveries of Su-57 with second stage engine already in 2024 are confirming also that more than 10 airframes were delivered this year to the VKS...

For reference, it was officially stated a couple of years ago that 22 units would be delivered by the end of 2024. We are apparently standing already at 21 airframes, with a full squadron in deliveries from next year on being a fully realistic assumption. I therefore assume that the 76 units contract will be met and may be increased in the next few years, since the industry is doing their part ramping up production and apparently the performance of the aircraft has the military more than satisfied.

Interestingly, and given the low level of AD available to the West and their proxies, VKS is probably the one airforce that can benefit the most from low RCS technology, with planes like Su-57 and of course Okhotnik up next allowing to use air power in a much bigger scale and much sooner in the conflict, therefore helping to degrade the vassal militaries that the West manages to throw against Russia during the rest of this decade and beginning of the next one with less losses and difficulty.

Also, it makes sense that Su57 most stealthy area is its dorsal one

NATO lacks strong air defenses on the ground

So su57 will fly low and attempt to mask itself from E3 AWACS coverage

Which mig31 and future PAKDP fire longer range missiles, the su57 will penetrate that airspace and take down everything, from the AWACS to its escorts

Its great to hear that this project is taking off, and virtually a regiment will be active by next year