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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #8

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:45 am

    kvs wrote:According to the ATGM wankers Russia should have not had any tanks left.   Doing a ratio between the number of NLAWs and
    Javelins and the number of tanks (not even production) it appears, based on empirical evidence, that hundreds are needed
    to take out one tank.   Most of the units sent over are lost as trophies and the effectiveness against tanks is nowhere near
    1:1.   They either miss or don't do enough damage to disable/destroy the targeted tanks.   We already saw a video posted
    that showed a lead armoured vehicle being taken out but the Ukr ambush unit being scattered and hunted down.   So the
    opportunity to use the ATGMs is limited by engagement in battle.   That is, factors other than possession of ATGMs are
    very important.  


    TOW, a much more powerful/heavier ATGM in comparison, was found under real-life wartime conditions to be only 50% (or half) as effective as claimed by their manufacturer according to a GAO report some time back.

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    Post  RTN Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:54 am

    Russia-Ukraine war shows just how important CIA ops to buy out Saddam's generals/Af grps were to the actual outcomes, even before the shooting war started.

    Strange that Russia didn't have similar arrangements in Ukraine, perhaps the reason why Putin's been firing SVR honchos.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:58 am

    Do you see my embedded twits ,

    No, I don't... it just appears as text with the html.

    I use a desktop computer and it doesn't work... I can get the gist of what you are posting because some of it is plain text in places, but otherwise it does not work.

    N-LAW is the only ATGM with an in built Fire Control Computer that can track a moving target and remain locked on to it.

    Javelin and Spike both have seekers that lock targets and track them in flight... it is why they cost so much.

    AFAIK it just has a gyro that maintains a lead for a moving target, and is not actually guided as such.

    But incredibly expensive for what it is... 19K pounds they said it cost... which makes it four times more expensive than Kornet....

    Where are they getting fuel from?

    They are hitting fuel depots, but the fuel vehicles likely are still around... every plane they lose with fuel on board will be a serious loss too.

    Another participant in negotiations with Russia was killed in Kyiv: According to Ukrainian media, people's deputy Rustem Umerov, who was part of the delegation at the negotiations with the Russian Federation, was poisoned in Kyiv. https://t.me/vicktop55/2501 @vicktop55
    #vicktop55

    But is it the nazis in Ukraine or the CIA enforcers that are keeping the Ukrainians on task sacrificing themselves for the greater good of killing Russians?

    Really looks like all the scum of the world have aligned here in the Ukraine over the last 8 years.

    You have to dig out the wound and remove the infected tissue, and you are going to lose some blood... some good blood... but this wound will never heal on its own... the surgeon is needed... you don't like him, but he is the man for the job.

    There were reports that some Ukrainian soldiers dressed in civilian clothes, got to their destination unharassed by Russian troops, then changed into their gear and engaged in their mission.

    Such actions will make things harder for the civilian populaiton, but the Afghans smelt out special forces groups because they were all young fit men... no matter what they wore or how they acted...

    N-LAW has a max range os 1.2 miles.

    Its effective range is 600m in good conditions with a trained operator.

    In the hands of a civilian it wont be as effective...

    I'll wager RPG 30 will also miss a moving target.

    RPG-30 is optimised to hit targets protected by APS systems... and hitting moving targets is not as hard as you make out... with proper training most launchers have scales to hit moving targets on them based on speed and distance... most vehicles that are moving are moving on roads so their ability to dodge or change direction are often very limited.

    It is not easy to hit a moving target especially when it is travelling at very high speed.

    What would be travelling at very high speed on the ground?

    That's what the Fire Control Computer is for, to enable the N-LAW to hit fast moving target.

    It is not a FCC, it is an autogyro that maintains a lead the operator applies to hit a moving target... the operator has to follow the target with the sight and the gyro continues to apply the lead after launch... if the vehicle slows down or turns after the rocket is fired it will miss.

    Against a stationary target or a head or tail on target its fancy gyro is meaningless.

    I like the way Kiev tries to twist the narrative and claim the Russians are abducting the citizens of Donbass which Kiev have been shelling for the past 8 years.
    That is so desperate, Kiev must be really running out of propaganda ideas.

    The problem is that it works because the west are idiots and don't care that it is a lie.

    NLAW missiles uses predictive line of sight technology. The guidance package calculates both the distance to the target and the target’s speed (if its mobile), and guides itself to the predicted location. With this, a single soldier can snipe a tank at range.

    It uses an autogyro to maintain a lead the operator essentially provides by following the moving target before launching it.

    MBTs, IFVs will have a top speed in excess of 50mph. That's enough speed to dodge any incoming ATGM. N-LAW was designed keeping this challenge in mind.

    If they are dumb enough to be driving around at that speed then land mines are what they should be using... and when they crash into things driving so recklessly then you can drop petrol bombs on them if they haven't already started burning by the time you get there.

    Little to no guidance whatsoever. It's like firing a bullet. If you are a good shot then maybe you can hit the target, that too provided the target is stationary and not moving.

    A tank is a significantly sized object... and the funny thing is that when you are ambushing vehicles you can pick where to do it... or put something in the road they have to stop for... or shoot from directly in front or directly in behind.

    There was another AT system that was looked upon as more of an RPG-7 just with some tacticool gimmicks

    That would be the German Panzerfaust...

    As I heard one of the problems was that the Western-supplied weapons were not even getting to the front-line troops in sizeable quantities.

    They probably lost a few when they blew up those buildings with the foreign fighters and other nearby ammo dumps... they would keep the good kit there to show the new arrivals what wonderful stuff they will be using and then when they get to the front some hand grenades and a rifle....

    And tacticool RPG was one of the few ones from US company. Not sure why you need so many picatinny rails on a system, makes no sense.

    That is a different toy isn't it? From Mattel?

    I have mixed feelings about aid organizations myself as sometimes they are being infiltrated or subverted.

    My biggest problem is how political they are... but if they are operating in Russia to help Russians and Ukrainians then that is OK by me.

    Such a bullet upon hitting flesh will expand inside and cause massive trauma. They're prohibited. A zoo of war-crimes, like I said.

    Also, a Russian Artek mobile radio-station was taken out in the Sumy region. Russians aren't protecting their rear lines enough

    Yeah, but the effect is not normally that bad and can sometimes be amusing.

    Let me explain... for a bullet the best material is dense and heavy, so lead is commonly used because it retains energy better... think of the difference between throwing a marble or golf ball to throwing a balloon filled with air. The marble or golfball will travel through the air a good distance only slowing down very slowly due to the wind resistence... the balloon will slow down rapidly because it is light and big so it is very high drag and low momentum.

    Making a rifle bullet out of lead means it cuts through the air better and does not slow down as fast as a lighter bigger object would.

    Lead is very soft and would leave lead in the rifled barrel so the put a mild steel or copper jacket around the lead to hold its shape and reduce fouling of the barrel... also lead kills brain cells so it makes handling the ammo safer too.

    The jacket is designed to hold the shape of the projectile so when you hit a human or animal target it slows down and might tumble but will basically retain its bullet shape.

    Cutting the tip of the jacket is intended to make the nose open and expand on impact to make a much bigger hole in the target and reduce the chance of the round penetrating all the way through and endangering other... you can't just cut the tip off any old fully jacketed bullet and it magically works like a soft tip or hollow tip bullet. Hollow tips and soft nose rounds have noses designed to peel back to expose the lead and mushroom flat to make a wider hole in the target.

    It makes an animal bleed more so they die quicker from blood loss and shock.

    With western full metal jacket rounds (FMJs) they often leave the rear base of the jacket open and there have been cases where high power FMJ rounds have had their tips cut off where the bullet jacket got stuck in the barrel and the gas pressure blew the lead through the jacket, which remained in place and the next round coming through hit the jacket.... when a bullet meets something in the barrel it doesn't just push it out ahead of itself... the shape of the projectile means the jacket gets rammed sideways into the barrel till the barrel bulges and the bullet is stopped inside the gun and you have a chamber detonation. Not as much fun as it sounds.

    Especially when the round you are modifying might just completely shatter and fragment on impact, or just retain its shape and not do anything anyway.

    Open tipped bullets are very ineffective against body armour too.

    So they might think they are being clever but if they don't get caught they are just damaging their ammo to make it less accurate by changing its aerodynamics, and less effective on target most of the time.

    Sorry but 50.000 killed Ukrainan soldiers in 1 month is not possible. I think 20,000 is max.

    Modern weapons are very destructive and powerful... that one building with those foreign volunteer fighters on its own was 300+ killed in one strike...

    , if he will get captured by Russians then I have no doubt he will be persecuted to the max and made an example, not so sure what will happen to him if he stays in Ukraine.

    Pretty sure you meant prosecuted and not persecuted... Razz

    I'm kinda disappointed with Dylan here.

    He is trying to say Russia will run out of tanks before Ukraine runs out of missiles.... and yes, he is being a dickhead, because it is very hard to use those missiles safely and not be killed, while sitting in a tank you are relatively safe from most things if you are sensible and have infantry and air support.

    Does it auto track?

    Starstreak... seems not. The previous missile was called Blowpipe and it sounds like it was rather difficult to use effectively too.

    Having said that Kornet, Bulat, and SOSNA-R are all beam riding and very very effective... but they have built in target auto trackers...

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    Post  mavaff Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:28 am

    Kadyrov being there it's good because he boosts troops motivation and mood but I hope he is humble enough to let the military guys do their plans, politicians should stay away from dictating military tactics.


    Last edited by mavaff on Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  billybatts91 Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:33 am

    mavaff wrote:Kadyrov being there it's good because he will boost troops motivation and mood but I hope he is humble enough to let the military guys do their plans, politicians should stay away from dictating military tactics.

    Agreed. Kadyrov is great and all but I doubt he's some genius military strategist. Hopefully he was there to boost moral, like you said, and nothing else.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:36 am

    mavaff wrote:Kadyrov being there it's good because he will boost troops motivation and mood but I hope he is humble enough to let the military guys do their plans, politicians should stay away from dictating military tactics.

    Well, he is a kind of different animal. Has some serious experience with direct combat, including urban warfare.
    People sometimes forget that both Chechen wars used to be actually civil ones not only if we consider Chechenya as a part of RF, but due to internal issues either.
    The war there started in 1991 already, and some serious Chechen forces were advocating for staying in the federation from the very beginning.
    Kadyrovs clan get that idea only after, but there were others.

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    Post  mavaff Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:57 am

    Javelin (is that a Javelin?) not really successful here on a T72. Tank carried on pretty well.

    https://t.me/mig41/15673

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    Post  Yugo90 Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:00 am

    mavaff wrote:Javelin (is that a Javelin?) not really successful here on a T72. Tank carried on pretty well.

    https://t.me/mig41/15673
    Western systems are total shit. To expensive and nothing special.

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    Post  Mir Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:01 am

    mavaff wrote:Javelin (is that a Javelin?) not really successful here on a T72. Tank carried on pretty well.

    https://t.me/mig41/15673

    Posted above already. It's a NLAW but it was fired from too short a distance to activate the warhead.

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    Post  Arrow Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:58 am

    Peace negotiations have started in Istanbul. What is Roman Abramovicz doing there, however, is taking part in the negotiations Shocked

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    Post  nero Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:05 am

    There is no wunderwaffe weaponry in the world.

    The NLAW, FGM-148, and others are just anti-tank guided missiles, just like 9M113, 9M115-2, etc.

    One of em' is going to eventually hit a tank and it'll be effective is taking it out. Even RPG's are able to do this. It's urban combat for you.

    That said, you're not beating an army with these toys alone.

    Look at Afghanistan, even with all of the gear the United States threw at the Taliban, and much older Soviet equipment, the Soviets left because of politics. After they left, the army they trained up was able to hold out for a significant amount of time (compare that with the US withdrawal, mm?). That is what is important, at the end of the day.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:07 am



    So good Razz   Biden is a senile geriatric that just can't stop himself from shitting on his own shoes...

    For the first time I'm actually glad that the US deep state and the dem assets in the bureaucracy stole the 2020 election from Trump.  Biden is doing a great job to undermine Murkan control of the global hegemony and to demolish the carefully manicured image of a "hyperpower" that cannot be challenged....    Laughing  

    What a contrast between Putin and Biden!  Russia is well served by the best leader Russia had for centuries, while the US is being led down the s-bend by a senile fool and an incompetent deep state cabal whose managerial skills seem to be limited to little more than filling their pockets and engaging in political kubuki...  Laughing

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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:10 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Do you see my embedded twits ,

    No, I don't... it just appears as text with the html.

    I use a desktop computer and it doesn't work... I can get the gist of what you are posting because some of it is plain text in places, but otherwise it does not work.

    Does it auto track?

    Starstreak... seems not. The previous missile was called Blowpipe and it sounds like it was rather difficult to use effectively too.

    Having said that Kornet, Bulat, and SOSNA-R are all beam riding and very very effective... but they have built in target auto trackers...


    This is all I see as well despite trying desktop version just jumbled text etc


    As for starstreak and blowpipe. Blowpipe was replaced by javelin (MANPAD) then that was replaced starburst basically an improved version and then that was replaced by starstreak. When I was in javelin/starburst was around and starstreak was entering service. The name starburst was never used and it was just called javelin but officially javelin S15. The original javelin was radio command and speed was under Mach 2 range was on par with other MANPAD systems. The starburst/javelin S15 was laser beam riding and range of 7km, both javelin systems have proximity fuses.

    As for starstreak it's much faster around mach 4, still 7km range, but needs an impact no proximity fuses. It's basically a MANPAD that's splits into three smaller darts spread over a small area in the chance it will hit the target with at least one dart which penetrates then explodes a very small charge 450g. It's not the worst system but needing a direct hit isn't always easy and it's the most expensive MANPAD on the market. You would probably find OSA, Tunguska, SOSNA is cheaper.

    I actually think it won't be long untill we see a twin or quad launcher of SOSNA mounted on 4x4, truck, or Tigr, or even a tripod like starstreak or javelin had.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:11 am

    NLAW is NOT an ATGM.
    Can you finally stop spreading that crap?!?

    It is a simple single-use rocket launcher with a scope that can adjust the aiming point according to the target speed.
    It is called PLOS, a predicted line of sight.
    In real conditions, requires following a target for 5s before the system can make adjustments and work out the new aiming point.

    Just like any modern scope you can just add to RPG.

    A 5s following time, 20m arming distance, and shooting a limit of max. 45 deg. down makes it actually not suitable for close range urban combat.
    All this masturbation around is just another show. They are late for the Oscar gala anyway, and I have heard that this year a real close range is fashionable there geek

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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:16 am

    par far wrote:"[Video] The massacre of a priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate - the militants of the therodefense captured him right in the temple. Nothing is known about the subsequent fate. On the video, the city of Smela, Cherkasy region."



    https://t.me/voenacher/13346

    I hope all this footage gets broadcasted. The world should not forget what happens to leaders who the west state have committed atrocities and breech Geneva convention, Saddam was hanged, Gaddafi shot and bayonet in the ass, Slobodan Milošević imprisoned for life, so going by all this zelensky will now have to be arrested and tried in Hague and the world should not let this slip.

    As for Boris and Biden these are the root cause of chaos and both should be imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:22 am

    RTN wrote:Russia-Ukraine war shows just how important CIA ops to buy out Saddam's generals/Af grps were to the actual outcomes, even before the shooting war started.

    Strange that Russia didn't have similar arrangements in Ukraine, perhaps the reason why Putin's been firing SVR honchos.

    It did. Russia reportedly agreed prior with the elites in Kharkov, Chernigov at a minimum

    They all went back on it as soon as the operation started. Well apart from Kherson

    There was also the hope of splitting the Ukrainian military from the political leadership, the former of whom Putin addressed. Didn't work either.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:25 am

    Regular wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:https://t.me/boris_rozhin/37471

    T-72B Obr. 1989 takes a hit from an RPG from a building above in Mariupol, doesn't seem fazed at all

    https://t.me/sheyhtamir/13786

    Ukrainian territorial defense in the Cherkassy region abducts a priest from a church

    NLAW, arming distance didn't activate it so it was just a piece of expensive metal and plastic hitting the steel. You can pause to see the projectile. RPG would detonate as the arming distance is 5 meters. But then again, backblast would knock out the AT guy and cameraman. Panzerfaust 3 and CG can be used in enclosed positions and would work much better as well.

    If you want to see what happens when an RPG-2 goes off at close range then you can watch the video below, skip to around 8 minute mark. (prior to that M79 Grenade launcher). This was me with Cambodian army, the shrapnel is still inside me about the size of a fingernail. After it the army put brake fluid from the 4x4 on the wound and some chewed up leaves, (I have pics) I then continued to fire AK-47 and PKM (also on my YouTube channel) before then heading to a clinic to get stitched up. This is exactly why arming ranges cane into the design, very faulty system due to age. Enjoy. Feel free to ask questions or subscribe to channel. For pics please ask me.

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:38 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    If you want to see what happens when an RPG-2 goes off at close range then you can watch the video below, skip to around 8 minute mark. (prior to that M79 Grenade launcher). This was me with Cambodian army, the shrapnel is still inside me about the size of a fingernail. After it the army put brake fluid from the 4x4 on the wound and some chewed up leaves, (I have pics) I then continued to fire AK-47 and PKM (also on my YouTube channel) before then heading to a clinic to get stitched up. This is exactly why arming ranges cane into the design, very faulty system due to age. Enjoy. Feel free to ask questions or subscribe to channel. For pics please ask me.


    You're a madman d_taddei

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:39 am

    Anyway I hope somehow the war ends. Talking about geopolitics and Nazis is one thing, but the whole operation is a massive fk-up, that has led to a meatgrinder.

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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:45 am

    flamming_python wrote:Anyway I hope somehow the war ends. Talking about geopolitics and Nazis is one thing, but the whole operation is a massive fk-up, that has led to a meatgrinder.
    What do you think would happen if Russia annexed all of Ukraine?
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    Post  Serberus Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:53 am

    flamming_python wrote:Anyway I hope somehow the war ends. Talking about geopolitics and Nazis is one thing, but the whole operation is a massive fk-up, that has led to a meatgrinder.

    It could end today if Ukraine agrees to Russia’s terms. So if you want to blame anyone, start with your buddy , the American puppet in Kiev.
    Looks like a large scale operation is about to hit Nikolaev, theres a long column of reinforcements heading that way, plus I have seen warnings to civilians to get out on telegram (not sure if these are official)

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:56 am

    MOSCOW, March 29. /TASS/.

    In the course of a special military operation in Ukraine over the past two weeks, about 600 foreign mercenaries have been destroyed, more than five hundred have left the country, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said.
    "Over the past two weeks, more than five hundred mercenaries have left the country and about six hundred more have been destroyed," Shoigu said at a conference call on Tuesday.

    According to him, "targeted actions continue to track down and destroy foreign mercenaries." "As a result of strikes with high-precision weapons on mercenary training centers, as well as combat losses, a decrease in their number on the territory of Ukraine is recorded," the defense minister said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14213511

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    Post  LMFS Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:07 pm

    Russian Defense Ministry
    🇷🇺🇺🇦 Russian Defense Ministry briefing (29.03.2022)

    ▫ The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue to conduct a special military operation.

    💥 In the evening of March 28, high-precision air-launched cruise missiles destroyed a large fuel base near the village of KLEVAN, Rivne region. This base was used to supply fuel for Ukrainian military equipment to the suburbs of Kiev.

    💥 Air defense systems of the Russian aerospace forces destroyed 3 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles in the area of the village of Chernobayevka overnight.

    💥 During the night operational-tactical aircraft hit 68 military facilities in Ukraine. Among them: three command posts, four anti-aircraft missile systems, including three Buk-M1 and one Osa, one radar station, five multiple launch rocket systems, two ammunition depots, three fuel and lubricants depots, and 19 areas of concentration of Ukrainian military equipment and strong points.

    📊 Since the beginning of the special military operation, 123 aircraft and 74 helicopters, 311 unmanned aerial vehicles, 1,738 tanks and other armored combat vehicles have been destroyed. installation of multiple launch rocket systems, 726 field artillery guns and mortars, as well as 1,592 units of special military vehicles.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:07 pm

    Shoigu: Russia will respond adequately if NATO supplies aircraft and air defense systems to Ukraine

    MOSCOW, March 29. /TASS/. Russia will respond adequately if the plans of a number of NATO countries to supply combat aircraft and air defense systems to Ukraine are implemented, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said.

    "We are following the statements of the leaders of individual NATO countries about their intention to supply aircraft and air defense systems to Ukraine. If they are implemented, we will adequately react," Shoigu said at a conference call on Tuesday.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14213331

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Anyway I hope somehow the war ends. Talking about geopolitics and Nazis is one thing, but the whole operation is a massive fk-up, that has led to a meatgrinder.

    Sure... and if you had your way you've have kept talking until the Ukr orcs launched massive blitzkrieg against the DPR/LPR and crushed the Donbass against the Russian border...

    Mordor wasn't giving any Russia any choice.

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