caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.
They have. They said there was a detonation, a fire, the crew was evacuated and the ship was towed, but then it sunk
They've left out what caused the detonation, and how much of the crew was alive still for evacuation. But gradually we're filling in the blanks. Hopefully there will be more clarification tomorrow, another video of injured sailors and officers in hospital for example.
caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.
Have you actually considered that the MoD version may be accurate?
Its entirely plausible that the loss of Moskva was an unfortunate accident, a case of a 40+ year old ship that had not received any upgrades during service, in need of repair, soon to be put into reserve, compelled to serve in wartime as a radar picket ship and area AD, suffering a catastrophic accident due to causes as yet unknown. The loss of Kursk was an accident, as was the Komsomolets, as was the Otvazhny back in 1974. These things can happen.
I'll withhold judgement until I know for sure. Given that this is war, I would expect that anyone sympathetic to Russia should be doing the same. Bloody-minded insistence on casting aspersions against the Navy and its leadership is just giving comfort to the enemy.
Of course. Honestly, i don't care about the ship at all, but about people that died. They should come clean and explain their version best they can. I agree with FP's comment about Kursk. That kind of shit shouldn't happen again.
zorobabel wrote:The MoD video with the crew of the Moskva only shows about 100 sailors. Not sure what is going on there.
Is black a standard uniform colour or are they wearing that for mourning losses. There is NO WAY there is a fire and explosion big enough to sink a 10K ton ship with 500 people on board that does not result in substantial deaths..
caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.
They have. They said there was a detonation, a fire, the crew was evacuated and the ship was towed, but then it sunk
They've left out what caused the detonation, and how much of the crew was alive still for evacuation. But gradually we're filling in the blanks. Hopefully there will be more clarification tomorrow, another video of injured sailors and officers in hospital for example.
I just hope that they didn't lose more than 30 sailors. That's all. Loss of a ship is a major **** up, but i can live with that.
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zorobabel wrote:The MoD video with the crew of the Moskva only shows about 100 sailors. Not sure what is going on there.
Is black a standard uniform colour or are they wearing that for mourning losses. There is NO WAY there is a fire and explosion big enough to sink a 10K ton ship with 500 people on board that does not result in substantial deaths..
It's a parade uniform for the winter season (which lasts up until April/May)
zorobabel wrote:The MoD video with the crew of the Moskva only shows about 100 sailors. Not sure what is going on there.
Is black a standard uniform colour or are they wearing that for mourning losses. There is NO WAY there is a fire and explosion big enough to sink a 10K ton ship with 500 people on board that does not result in substantial deaths..
Standard. I bet they hate it when they are in Syria. The last time I met Russian Navy personnel was in Limassol, Cyprus 2016. All dressed in black and roasting in the sun.
zorobabel wrote:The MoD video with the crew of the Moskva only shows about 100 sailors. Not sure what is going on there.
Is black a standard uniform colour or are they wearing that for mourning losses. There is NO WAY there is a fire and explosion big enough to sink a 10K ton ship with 500 people on board that does not result in substantial deaths..
It's a parade uniform for the winter season (which lasts up until April/May)
Surely, black is the standard color no matter what season, I thought parade uniforms were white top and black trousers like in this image below, or I am mixing something?
Much like Tu-95M/MS, they were fitted with rotary missile launchers long ago (and Tu-95 received underwing hardpoints for an additional 8 or 10 cruise missiles), and haven't dropped a single bomb for at least 20 years.(1)
To convert them back into bombers again would take some time, and for what?
The only large actual bomber (as in a plane actually able to carry bombs internally) RU operates is Tu-22M3, when it isn't loaded with 3x Kh-22/32s.
It can carry even more in full "bomb truck mode", with two MERs for an additional 18x bombs
Max loadout (in numbers) is 69x FAB-100 to 250. 42x FAB-500 otherwise packs the most punch.
It can also carry FAB-3000 (x2) and FAB-9000 (x1). And I'd pay to see the latter being dropped somewhere, though I don't know if any are in stock anymore.
(1) And no, the "FOAB" was not dropped by a Tu-160 back in 2008 or whenever that demo took place, it was clearly slid out from the cargo hold of an Il-76 or some such.
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PS, Russia should really develop a cheap-ish PGM add-on like the U.S. Paveway series.
Problem is, Russia (well, the USSR) kinda stuck with the un-aerodynamic M54 bomb models, optimized for internal carry.
The low-drag M62 variants don't show up as often, and aren't ideal for such a "kit" either due to the fin layout (the "ring" in particular) and general stubbiness.
Bit of a blunder in hindsight, apparently (?) necessitating dedicated PGMs like the KAB series. The SVP-24 "Gefest" doesn't solve this issue either, though it certainly is an upgrade over the legacy bomb computers.
But there *has* to be some way to properly PGM-ize at least the M62 models.
Anyway, the laser guidance add-ons for S-8 and S-13 rockets seemed very clever. Whatever happened to those?
zorobabel wrote:The MoD video with the crew of the Moskva only shows about 100 sailors. Not sure what is going on there.
Is black a standard uniform colour or are they wearing that for mourning losses. There is NO WAY there is a fire and explosion big enough to sink a 10K ton ship with 500 people on board that does not result in substantial deaths..
It's a parade uniform for the winter season (which lasts up until April/May)
Surely, black is the standard color no matter what season, I thought parade uniforms were white top and black trousers like in this image below, or I am mixing something?
White is for summer. The guy in the middle is on duty and looks like a marine (1st and 2nd line ships tend to have a complement)
Arkanghelsk wrote:On another note, does anyone know why Su24 was not used in this conflict? Despite it being old, as a bomber it had a lot of life, and it's an aircraft that is fast and low, and even can fly high to deliver cheap bombs Does anyone know why su24 did not make an appearance?
Why? Plenty of Su-34s. And unlike the Su-34, the Su-24 neither has the same level of integrated radar jamming capabilities, or sensors.
What is it? I have my doubts it's actually a Mi-28N
"Russia’s poorly designed “Apache”wanna be..."
Why post enemy propaganda posts? Just the smell of NATOista screed should be enough to make you pass over this garbage.
Don't pollute the forum with enemy BS. Russia will take losses, it is inevitable, but why the fck do you choose to stink up the forum with this stuff? You say that you're not a 6th column emo-commie? Maybe you need to act in a way consistent with your denials...
Kinda funny how the US had to copy the MI-26 gearbox concept to enable the CH-53K enough power.
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caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD should come out and explain what really happened. I can tell that many Russians are not happy they are trying to push this under the carpet.
Have you actually considered that the MoD version may be accurate?
Its entirely plausible that the loss of Moskva was an unfortunate accident, a case of a 40+ year old ship that had not received any upgrades during service, in need of repair, soon to be put into reserve, compelled to serve in wartime as a radar picket ship and area AD, suffering a catastrophic accident due to causes as yet unknown. The loss of Kursk was an accident, as was the Komsomolets, as was the Otvazhny back in 1974. These things can happen.
I'll withhold judgement until I know for sure. Given that this is war, I would expect that anyone sympathetic to Russia should be doing the same. Bloody-minded insistence on casting aspersions against the Navy and its leadership is just giving comfort to the enemy.
Of course. Honestly, i don't care about the ship at all, but about people that died. They should come clean and explain their version best they can. I agree with FP's comment about Kursk. That kind of shit shouldn't happen again.
The only reasonable explanation is that they wish to inform the bereaved in person before making an announcement. This would be reasonable. A visit from a naval officer and chaplin.
Dr.Snufflebug wrote:PS, Russia should really develop a cheap-ish PGM add-on like the U.S. Paveway series.
Problem is, Russia (well, the USSR) kinda stuck with the un-aerodynamic M54 bomb models, optimized for internal carry.
The low-drag M62 variants don't show up as often, and aren't ideal for such a "kit" either due to the fin layout (the "ring" in particular) and general stubbiness.
Bit of a blunder in hindsight, apparently (?) necessitating dedicated PGMs like the KAB series. The SVP-24 "Gefest" doesn't solve this issue either, though it certainly is an upgrade over the legacy bomb computers.
But there *has* to be some way to properly PGM-ize at least the M62 models.
Anyway, the laser guidance add-ons for S-8 and S-13 rockets seemed very clever. Whatever happened to those?
One issue is that there's a huge inventory of old m54 bombs in the inventory still.
Dr.Snufflebug wrote: Anyway, the laser guidance add-ons for S-8 and S-13 rockets seemed very clever. Whatever happened to those?
I think laser-guided versions of those rockets date back to like the 80s
Dunno how often they were ever used
I don't know what the niche is exactly. Those rocket pods are area of effect weapons. Concealed infantry, suppression of some position, a cluster of vehicles. If you have a particular target in mind that you want to guarantee a hit on, use a Shturm or a Vikhr.
Dr.Snufflebug wrote:PS, Russia should really develop a cheap-ish PGM add-on like the U.S. Paveway series.
Problem is, Russia (well, the USSR) kinda stuck with the un-aerodynamic M54 bomb models, optimized for internal carry.
The low-drag M62 variants don't show up as often, and aren't ideal for such a "kit" either due to the fin layout (the "ring" in particular) and general stubbiness.
Bit of a blunder in hindsight, apparently (?) necessitating dedicated PGMs like the KAB series. The SVP-24 "Gefest" doesn't solve this issue either, though it certainly is an upgrade over the legacy bomb computers.
But there *has* to be some way to properly PGM-ize at least the M62 models.
Anyway, the laser guidance add-ons for S-8 and S-13 rockets seemed very clever. Whatever happened to those?
One issue is that there's a huge inventory of old m54 bombs in the inventory still.
Can't they just make the kit include a front and rear fairing to improve the aero of the bomb?
limb wrote:Can anyone explain why the Ukrainian troops around Odessa still haven't been bombed by the Russian air force? Why do theystill have lots of combat capable vehicles?
par far wrote:...As for the negotiations, I don't think that Russia was ever serious about that, it might have just been to give diplomatic cover to China and India.
Oh they were definitely serious about negotiations, they stopped the whole offensive because of them like absolute chumps
They learned the hard way (again) that apes are just taking them for a ride
Big_Gazza wrote:...Russia will take losses, it is inevitable...
It's not inevitable, only reason Russia is taking any non-marginal loses is because they refuse to kill the enemy
All Russian losses are result of Russian inaction not Ukrainian actions
Apes are being given kiddie glove treatment and as a result they get to pretend they are being successful in fighting a war
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Su24 is a capable aircraft , it can use fantasmagoria pod to Jam targeting radar of Buk
It can also use laser guided weapons with kh25 and kh27 with Kaira-24 targeting optic
Spetsnaz can use lasers as in Syria , to direct precision airstrike via laser missile or smart bombs like KAB 500 and even unguided bombs with SVP 24 Gefest module
Sirena RWR was tested against soviet radars and they regularly fly against pantsir and buk in modern exercises
Su24 is not flying combat missions due to a technical limitation
It is not flying because of political limitations
With that range, speed, endurance, payload and workrate of su24 you want to be using this plane of which there are many upgraded versions to cheaply hunt the enemy and use smaller and cheaper platforms to terminate the enemy
In addition to drones, artillery, and helicopters , those munitions give the capability to hit Ukros outside of rocket range, and therefor MANPADS and SHORADS where you wouldn't have to use kalibr or iskander
This was successful in Syria against militants with MANPADS and other such weapons
kvs wrote:The only relevant analysis is how the final stand of the Kiev regime will play out in the LDNR cauldron...
It won't be anywhere near final, it would be just the first step of (hopefully) finally getting the job done
Once that rat nest is torched they need to push forward and wait for next group of rats to get recruited and assembled so they could get roasted as well
Rinse and repeat until Polish border
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Mariupol is under Russian control, only Nazis left in Azovstal According to Russian MOD they had around 8000 troops there initially , 4000KIA, 1500POW and 2500 left in Azovstal. They were given one “final” (for a third time I think) ultimatum to lay down arms and surrender today, or it’s reported they would be vacuum bombed.
Minor gains south and east of Izyum, around Popasna and supposedly Kherson otherwise nothing of note, still waiting for a major offensive to commence.
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