Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36

why? they will have to rebuild this shit. Cruise missiles are cheap. It will take years to repair the plant, while you only want to shut of power for a few weeks. Your view is typically American, where you win wars and lose the peace. Again and again. You need to think further ahead.

Hopefully they will target powerplant turbines this time instead of transformers and grid It's starting to look like they are pussyfooting again, no matter what they do power is back in several hours Do it right or don't do it at all wrote:

limb wrote:Good video on russian offensive prospects.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z65TlEFNEzY

One very important  point in the video is that no army has successfully advanced through the donbass industrial zone historically,all attempts to directly conquer it have led to massive losses with little ground taken. All successful attempts to take it were through encirclements or flanking attacks from sumy or zaporozhie. this brings the question why russians are so hellbent to put so many troops to directly assault fortifications built in 8 years frontally instead of doing a massive but slow offensive on the much less fortified zaporozhie sector.Why bang your head on hilly terrain with massive bunker networks, mines and sprawling industrial areas when you can make a massive push through completely flat, relatively poorly fortified and agricultural land through gulyaypole or Sumy. Why?

I guess because slowly grinding down Ukrainian soldiers is exactly what Russia wants. I am merely an armchair historian, but when general Francisco Franco was about to win the Spanish civil war, he did not defeat the Spanish Republican Army as soon as possible. Instead his goal was to grind down as many enemies as possible during the war instead of having to worry about them later during rebellions. Another example is the occupation of the 3rd Reich. There were barely Nazi soldiers left who could have revolted after the war had ended and the allies could denazify Germany more easily.

I think it might be similar in this war. It is a humanitarian disaster, but the more losses Ukrainians have on the battlefield, the less terrorists and rebels they will have available later on in the occupied regions. Fighting in Artyomovsk and Soledar has turned out to be a Verdun meat grinder for Ukraine. So I would say it was Ukraine that made the biggest mistake here, not Russia.

It would be foolish to try and annex whole country, especially Russophobic western parts. Just take 10-11 regions in the South and East and return the rest to Дикое поле. Good start for that is too completely raise to the ground all TPPs in the western part. Next in line would be industry and infrastructure.  Demographics and emigration will take care of that part, after the war.

I guess because slowly grinding down Ukrainian soldiers is exactly what Russia wants. I am merely an armchair historian, but when general Francisco Franco was about to win the Spanish civil war, he did not defeat the Spanish Republican Army as soon as possible. Instead his goal was to grind down as many enemies as possible during the war instead of having to worry about them later during rebellions. Another example is the occupation of the 3rd Reich. There were barely Nazi soldiers left who could have revolted after the war had ended and the allies could denazify Germany more easily.

I think it might be similar in this war. It is a humanitarian disaster, but the more losses Ukrainians have on the battlefield, the less terrorists and rebels they will have available later on in the occupied regions. Fighting in Artyomovsk and Soledar has turned out to be a Verdun meat grinder for Ukraine. So I would say it was Ukraine that made the biggest mistake here, not Russia.

I explicitly said a SLOW offensive through zaporozhie, sumy and ugledar which would reduce losses. Its easier to grind down an an enemy in an area where he doesnt have access to fortifications built in the last 8 years, plus massive industrial zones, because the enemy has fewer areas to hid in and is less stealthy because he doesnt have massive underground tunnel networks to move and store material in.

Since TASS also put this announcement in the SMO section, I will do the same.


January 14, 18:04
Military operation in Ukraine

Russian military deployed T-90M "Breakthrough" tanks in Kherson and Zaporozhye directions




According to the tankers, after a few months of use, the technique has proven itself, it is much more powerful and stronger than Western counterparts.

GENICHESKY, January 14th. /TASS/. Russian servicemen used improved T-90M "Breakthrough" tanks in a special military operation on the territory of Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, hiding in a forest belt, they fired at the enemy on the right side of the Dnieper, a TASS correspondent reports.

"Targets were prepared in advance, coordinates were given. These coordinates were clearly worked out by order of the higher command. The targets were hit," tank commander Alexei said after completing the task.

According to tank crews, the T-90M "Breakthrough" tank has proven itself well in a few months of use. "It withstands blows due to composite armor and due to maneuverability, you can get away.

The mesh is needed so that when a projectile hits, the charge detonates before it touches the main armor. This tank is much more powerful and stronger (of Western counterparts - TASS note), it is the best at the moment that we have encountered in battle," said tank driver Denis.

The participants of the special operation have already begun to call the T-90M "Breakthrough" the "tank of the great victory" by analogy with the legendary T-34. “It has been improved - the crew is reliably protected, the tank commander, that is, I am already sitting inside, I don’t have to get out into the street, reload the Kord [machine gun] and fire - I do all this from the inside.

Surveillance devices have been improved, I have a panorama, I can look at 360 degrees and do not need to turn my head, I can see everything on the computer. I can also communicate with neighboring tanks without getting in touch, I just write them the coordinates, we drive up there and we work together. Our T-90 was blown up by an anti-tank mine, the caterpillar was not damaged, only the roller was torn off and it left the combat zone under its own power, the entire crew was intact," said the commander of another T-90M "Proryv" tank Ruslan.

The T-90M "Breakthrough" tank is the most advanced vehicle in the T-90 family, as well as the most adapted to operations in modern combat conditions, including due to the presence of all-aspect protection, a modern all-day highly automated fire control system and the implementation of measures to increase survivability. On January 12, Uralvagonzavod announced that it had sent a new batch of modernized newest T-90M Proryv tanks to the RF Ministry of Defense.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16801485

Excellent discussion with Sergey Karaganov in which he explained why rift between Russia and West came to this point. 

It is enough to look at the picture and the myth of superiority falls into the water.
Just by looking at the Leopard 2 tank compared to the T-72, one would think that the German tank is at least 50% heavier, but it is not..
The Russian tank is tremendously massive in relation to its dimensions, tough and compact
Leo 2; Wider, taller, longer, one more crew member.. completely unconvincing, except for use in the Western media. Compared to the West, the Russians were more serious about equipping their army with tanks, the development of new types and tanks, and the most important of all - the stable production of tanks.
The best and the most proven tank platform in the world is the T-72..






First of all, I don't think that any weapon system is crap, but I think that if the weapon system belongs to the same generational period of time, then there is no drastic difference.
I think the same about the Su-27 in relation to all the western aircraft of the fourth and fourth + generation except the F-22 - which is still a failed aircraft.

This is just my opinion and not authoritative..

Rather if some parts want to be a part of Russia or not the entire country will regardless be under Russian military control.

please Poland invade and become a part of Russia.

No, it looks like he is on administrative leave. As for Lapin, what was done to him is despicable and I don't think anyone normal can approve of it. He was made into a scapegoat for Kharkov fiasco, while WMD is on a 4th commander in less than a year.

Lapin was literally promoted - what pray tell was done to him that was so terrible? Aside from the doomer and internet war correspondents' witch-hunt against him that is.. but I suspect he got through that little ordeal intact ultimately.

thegopnik Today at 12:47 am

please Poland invade and become a part of Russia.

Let them have Poland. They are anyway the only believing Catholics in the EU area ruled by corporations - the only religion in the West..

what I am going to write does not refer to you Gopnik, but to some others...
The only thing I hold against Russia is the destruction of the Russian Empire and the brutal killing of the Romanov family.
Karma is a whore, and you Russians are still paying for it to this day.
You picked up Lenin 100+ years ago who was brought to you from the "wonderful" West, with the same goal (as today) of destroying the core of Russian society.
The USSR is a monstrosity built on the strong foundations created by the Russian Empire - with the aim of killing the Russian state, the Russian people and the Russian church.
Only because of that red vermin, there is a considerable number of heretics, leftists and other vermin in Russia today.

Anyone who pisses on their ancestors deserves only one thing - severe punishment. It's not about religion, it's about self-respect.
That's my opinion for every single person on this planet..
Anyone who glorifies the USSR here on the forum, an imaginary "nation" whose goal was to destroy the Russian identity, will always get a "portion" from my side...
I hate reds to the core !

Russians did not kill the Czar and his family.

The Leopard-2 has a shorter gun barrel than the T-72. This is not an improvement. The shorter the barrel the more scatter of
the shell at a given range. That's why we have rifles and not just handguns. There is no particular need for the L-2 to sit higher
than the T-72 so it is another "feature". The turret looks big because of the huge bustle which the T-72 does not have. But
the extra crew member does need more turret space.

I think that Russian reactive armour is the best there is. None of the NATzO systems are anywhere close and certainly not deployed
if they have it prototyped. Judging by the number of L-2s scattered in U-rope, they were never planning for a ground war. I suppose
some nuclear preemptive strike was supposed to take the USSR and later Russia out. I know that there are Abrams and Leclercs but
they are not in the 5,000 thousand range combined. The US would have to ship all of its produced Abrams to U-rope.

Contrast to the total number of functional tanks Ukria had on February 24, 2022. Any ground war with Russia would be on a much
larger scale.

We'll see if steal beasts lied about armor values of the leo2A4 and if war thunder's values were correct.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ExjjLTRzY

Every day that takes longer this war means increasing production in NATO countries more. Since Ukraine can hardly produce almost, hardly repairing, NATO will switch to full production and produce for the Nazi Land.

Every day of longer, the position of Russia deteriorates and lets his in front of the production melt. The sleeping countries of NATO also wakes up to start war production again.

The war will soon end with the full use of Ukraine. Russia cannot afford a war of wear and tear. Especially since the West is now starting to deliver more and more. The Ukraiische Manpower must be removed from the game. Now!

Another sleeper account awakens

kvs wrote:Russians did not kill the Czar and his family...

Really?

So who did then?

PapaDragon wrote:

kvs wrote:
Russians did not kill the Czar and his family...

Really?

So who did then?

Bolshie Jews.  Don't pretend you don't know.

@FP

Lapin was literally promoted - what pray tell was done to him that was so terrible? Aside from the doomer and internet war correspondents' witch-hunt against him that is.. but I suspect he got through that little ordeal intact ultimately.  

Au contraire, my friend. He was shat on by Chechens, especially Kadyrov, and Prigozhin and their pet journos. Most of the other journos were on his side.
Current position seems to me as a consolation prize. He was a commander of a District. And Teplinsky was his man.

Russians did not kill the Czar and his family...
Bolshie Jews. Don't pretend you don't know.

Interesting interpretation of history. You guys should write a book together.

The order to kill the Czar was given by Yakov Sverdlov, who was Jewish.

The 'Russian Revolution' (accurate naming should be Jewish Bolshevist Revolution) was led by the Jewish intelligentsia and financed by American Jewish banksters.

Both sides are using such low-level propaganda shit spread via any possible channel.
The thing is obviously disgusting, but I have watched much more than that ...

I would guess the problem is expectations... the guy in Kiev probably expected the guys on the front line to be pissed off at their situation and angry at Zelensky for putting them there, while the guys at the front were expecting blind support for their coming sacrifice and full support against the "invaders", but the problem was that neither was satisfied with the information coming from the other guy. The kiev guy repeatedly said he didn't want to fight and die for Zelensky, but sitting in an apartment a large distance from the fighting, he might as well be in the US or UK or France for all we knew, while the soldiers were definitely near a front line and under direct imminent threat of death.

That guy from Kiev had better be careful... wont be just the guys on the front line wanting his blood now... plenty of nutters in Kiev thinking they are fighting the good fight and that he is an enemy... a weak unarmed enemy... the sort they love to "fight", like all those Ukrainian civilians in the east of the country they designated Russian invaders in 2014 so they can shell and bomb and attack at will and pretend to be tough.

My thought, there is no mystery behind that - it is just a regularly produced RPG delivered to the troops. I guess the production lines are busy only with those for a while.

My thoughts are that it is something new with a specific purpose that really does not matter against most targets, and that keeping its details secret for as long as possible will keep western APS designers guessing as to what it does and how.

Is there a jammer in the front rocket, or perhaps a decoy, or maybe a forward firing fragmentation warhead that detonates when the APS system intercepts it, showering the tank with high speed small fragments or even burning material...

Russian soldiers aren't sitting on social media shaming their countrymen for not joining the operation in the Ukraine, these idiots who are cannon fodder for Zelensky should be made to understand that both the people they claim to be fighting for and the leadership who conscripted them don't give a shit about them or their wellbeing. I could only hope that more instances like this will lead to more of them refusing to fight for the Kiev Junta.

I suspect the purpose of this interview by this guy in Kiev is to point out the hopelessness of the war and how ordinary people go to the front while what he claims are smarter people like himself... so if not smarter then certainly more arrogant people stay behind in relative safety, and to perhaps get some agreement on trying to end this war.... but you don't get people to agree with you by telling them they are stupid... you can tell them they are being stupid and talk through how they are being used and about people making billions of dollars in profit in this conflict that is destroying their country, but don't tell them they ARE stupid for being fooled...

Orcs, like ghetto blacks, will speak the language that other orcs will understand, do you think had he eloquently explained his position and reasoning for not volunteering to the frontlines that they'll have a "Come to Jesus" moment and see the error of their ways? As crude as it may be, he showed these Ukronazis the true sentiment of most Ukrainians and what the war effort really means to them... absolutely nothing.

Problem is that I think the message those soldiers got was that there is one prick living the good live while they suffer and die on the front line.

I guess later on they might realise there are rather more than one doing this... will they realise they are making a huge sacrifice for people who don't deserve it.

Literally just an RPG-27 with a decoy rocket strapped to the side. Can't get any more simpler than that.

Would be interesting if they made it a HE FRAG round decoy that they could launch both at an APS protected vehicle or at enemy armour and enemy troops fleeing damaged enemy armour... ie one hit from the RPG-27 and then the lighter rocket fired at the turret to injure crew bailing out of the vehicle... or enemy positioned near the tank.

Both rockets will be disposable so you fire both you drop it and walk away... making the extra rocket even more useful would be useful.

Having watched the video, the precursor rocket is tiny.... scrap the ideas about using it against infantry with a frag warhead...

In service since 2011... so it is not brand new either... interesting.

The law is explained simply and logically: competent employees are promoted as long as they demonstrate their competence. As soon as they stop showing it in a new place, they stop growing, but do not go down, as this would mean an admission of a mistake by the leadership. In addition, employees themselves rarely refuse promotion, even realizing their incompetence in a new place

The funny thing is that western wokeness perverts this even further where people are promoted because of their gender or ethnicity or sexuality and can't be demoted, so they will get shifted around the organisation to hide the mistake of promoting them...

Since Ukraine can hardly produce almost, hardly repairing, NATO will switch to full production and produce for the Nazi Land.

That is OK, because Kiev is not paying the bills and it is HATO countries that will be left with debts that the Russians will certainly not pay...

The winners don't pay.

The sleeping countries of NATO also wakes up to start war production again.

At a time just after the effects of Covid and increasing energy costs and inflation in the western world, western countries are sending cash and their own military reserves of weapons and ammo to Kiev for the Russians to destroy... those western countries will also want to reequip their own forces as well as funding weapons going to Kiev so the "defence" bill for the west is going to be enormous... along with the heating bill and the food bill and lack of fertilisers food production is going to be effected too.

The Ukraiische Manpower must be removed from the game. Now!

Ukrainian manpower is being removed, but it just takes time... the more time it takes the more manpower is being removed... including foreigner volunteers as well...

No hurry for the war, Russia is making this an affordable war, while the west as usual is overspending.

Essentially this is a war of survival for Russia so a long term ongoing conflict is better than the consequences of defeat.

Their goal isn't to destroy ukrainian civilian infrastructure because they still keep as an option annexation of all Ukraine. It would be very expensive and hard to rebuild. Transformers can be produced easily. Power plants not so easily.

Amusing irony though... the country that used to build turbines for the whole Soviet Union, being rebuilt after this conflict with Russian made turbines...

Harder to rebuild.

True, but why worry about rebuilding if the war continues for the next 5 years because you were too nice.

Bro, you are starting to get on my nerves slowly...
I CAN'T STAND people who write one thing today and completely different tomorrow..
I dont give a **** for kindness if someone is already talking nonsense - you crying **** !

Can we all stop with the personal attacks. Members are entitled to their own opinions and to state them on this forum.

You can say you disagree, but when you start telling other people they are stupid for believing what they do, well that crosses a line... just state your opinion and move on.

Perhaps you could compare opinions with supporting evidence and ask the other person to explain their reason for their opinions, but personal abuse is just going to turn it into an argument... which is just a joke.

Now they just started to send heavy tanks, but if the trend continues positively, a large demilitarization can occur of western stocks of vehicles and weaponry

Interesting you mention that because at the end of the cold war the conventional forces europe CFE agreement was about balance where the eastern block was supposed to get rid of its enormous amount of armour and aircraft it had in advantage over the west... the agreed levels were for HATO countries to get rid of a small number of items... most of which were cascaded down the hierarchy to lessor states to reduce overall numbers but radically improve the average quality of the armoured forces, while the Soviets had to slash their enormous holdings... for instance at 20,000 tanks and x number of IFVs each side the Russians had to get rid of 60-70K tanks and armoured infantry carriers, but the whole concept was made a joke when the balance was shifted by the Warsaw Pact joining HATO and taking their armour quotas with them along with former Soviet states... the only real loophole was that Russia could shift its armour and aircraft and equipment to the far east out of its european area.

Anyway the point I was thinking about was the enormous armour and infantry vehicle advantage HATO has also stems from this now defunct agreement, but this conflict has served to burn up a lot of armoured vehicles in the former Soviet block that changed sides to join HATO, so that is actually a rather good thing in itself.

@Podlodka77
The meaning of a forum is of opinion and diversity of the opinion and not insults.

You are welcome to have a different opinion, but omitting your hostility.

@Admin, I ask for warning of the user.

Very well put Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E .

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to a fast closure of the war, but this is not in Russian (Chinese/Indian) interest. If we turn it around and look at some of the other arguments.

- The longer the war takes, the more impact this will have on depletion of NATO stock.
- The longer the war takes, you will inevitably see more friction and fighting between NATO members.
- The longer the war takes, the civilian population will take notice if the deterioration of economic circumstances causing pressure on governments.

Meanwhile, Russia has its economic sanctions well mitigated. Still has minimal to almost zero debt. Is working well and moving forward with the bricks countries while the dollar is losing influence.

Very much agree, but would also add that the longer this conflict goes on the more the west will work to destroy all ties with Russia, which is good for Russia... and also the factor that the Russian military are being slow to reduce their own losses while maintaining high losses amongst the enemy combatants... which is also good for Russia too.

Bro, you have to get in line when it comes to "warning this user"… Laughing
I know that you crybabies and spineless people don't like me the most because it's mutual - I don't like you either...

Only two users here are immune from bans of any kind and they are me and George... it is not about liking each other, it is about maturity and respect for different points of view.

The United States, Germany and France are currently awarding the expansion of capacities. If the SMO goes for more than 9 months, this will increase significantly in the West. I don't think so is beneficial.

And when inflation increases and the consequences of isolating Russia and China and the Brics countries and they have to start cutting costs and excesses, one of the first things they will cut is extra ammo and weapons they wont be needing.

Half the material they are making will likely get destroyed inroute, or in storage.

Much of it is ordinary and ineffectual in terms of performance.

Ukrainian Defense Forces destroyed 18 out of 28 cruise missiles fired and 3 out of 5 guided air missiles,-Zaluzhny

The irony is that even if this was true they would be in serious trouble because the ground launched AMRAAMs and in the near future the Patriots they will be using are probably in the vicinity of 4 million per shot... and I don't think Kiev will be getting any discounts...

What are these "arguments" and on what basis do you know that it is as you wrote ?
What is your position in world politics and in world geopolitical currents so that you know that it is so as you wrote?

War is not a natural state of affairs and no matter who is winning, both sides are getting damaged and suffering and pissing away money that could be better used to make life better. I understand his wanting this conflict to be over, but the problem is that this could only happen if Russia surrenders to the west and Kiev and so that is not going to happen.

I suppose they need to get much closer to get any footage.
That is why operating from UK or Aviano makes no sense anymore.

Two poles in a tractor are killed is bad enough, but imagine a HATO AWACS plane gets hit by a wayward S-300 launched from Ukrainian territory... like they have never shot down a Boeing before to get the west energised in support of their evil.

Probably Russia would not want Nato to obtain information about its best jamming capabilities, unless they have to conduct important operations. I guess the Russian Winter offensive is about to get much more serious now.

True, but then a system you can't use is pretty useless...

I read that challenger 2 will not be used in Donbass for fear of tanks being captured (wouldn't it be fear of getting bogged down?)

So if they send 30 tanks then they will have to dedicate satellites and HIMARS to keep track of them so if any are abandoned then a HIMARS unit could take it out and destroy it.

A core sample of the front hull and turret front would be interesting for Russian experts, even if just to find out how much its protection has been exaggerated...

The only thing that matters is the amount of weapons.

The skill and training of the crew and the ability of logistics to keep them operational and moving and armed, plus a military leadership that doesn't send them into traps and provides air and gun/rocket support to your operations are all factors that matter too.

why? they will have to rebuild this shit. Cruise missiles are cheap. It will take years to repair the plant, while you only want to shut of power for a few weeks. Your view is typically American, where you win wars and lose the peace. Again and again. You need to think further ahead.

Appreciate what you are saying but thinking of the future ignores the reality today... if they don't surrender then there is no need to rebuild anything... Russia has to get them to surrender first... or even just start talking about it and they wont if their power comes back on line after a few hours or days.

They are calling Russias bluff so Russia has to escalate... destroying power generation is not the same as wholesale slaughter of a strategic bombing campaign like the western powers tried with germany during WWII... so they are still being more human than the west ever was.

Taking out power and water was often the first things they did in many of their wars since WWII.

It would be foolish to try and annex whole country, especially Russophobic western parts.

Right now it would, but in six months to a years time as the Russian forces creep forward and the wests new wonder weapons are stacked up on scrap heaps or are pride of place in Russian museums, they might think the west can no longer save them and that that offer of autonomy that they never allowed the donbass region to have is sounding pretty good...

Any Poles think they can enter the conflict and take some areas will be dealt with in a way that no one else tries the same... looking back at conflicts in Europe Poland has a long history of stealing land actually... that is interesting it is not mentioned at all.

Rather if some parts want to be a part of Russia or not the entire country will regardless be under Russian military control

If the pro Russian parts had to put up with being under the control of the pro west nazis, then why not the other way around... the pro west anti Russians can be under Russian control... they can flee to the west if they don't like that.

Anyone who glorifies the USSR here on the forum, an imaginary "nation" whose goal was to destroy the Russian identity, will always get a "portion" from my side...
I hate reds to the core !

In many ways the communists were a reaction to monarchists, which is what the west really has... people with power by birth rather than by skill or talent. Most really really rich people come from rich families and inherited their wealth and power... much like monarchy... perhaps with a smidge less inbreeding of course.

PD wrote:Really?

So who did then?

I take it you are not a history teacher.

Yakov Yurovksy hated Russians. Many small nations had grudge and deep rooted hatred and used bolshevism as disguise to enforce cruelty over them. Tsar and his family is just a cherry on the top when it comes to crimes against Russians. Latvian riflemen where notorious for their crimes. He was already out of the picture and his death was just death of as important as death of another person.

It’s good that most of them evil people died by fighting each other to get to the top. Stalin sorted the rest.

That is the reason why I love to shut down my own countrymen when they cry about Russian occupation and communism. If they want to play the blame game I made them know that they were as much at fault as any Russian. Like Georgians now… they cry about occupation, but still respect Stalin


By the way, early communist, well let’s call them bolsheviks, were reactionaries from rich families, criminals, opportunists and so on. Monarchism was outdated and stupid, but this was anarchy

In relation to the challenger 2 tanks I highly doubt they will be deployed. Chobham armour is a highly classified component of the tank. And from experience Chobham armour was classified very high on the scale, and majority of soldiers were never even given a glimpse of its make up and this includes tank crews. Challenger 2 tanks haven't been widely exported for this reason alone a small number sold to Oman which was seen as a safe bet, and there is rumours that the armour make up on those tanks are no better then what was on challenger 1 tanks which isn't hard to believe considering export versions are always downgraded. Only hope Ukraine has is if the UK buys back some challenger 1 tanks from Jordan to send to Ukraine. The UK won't risk domestic version of challenger 2 tanks Chobham armour falling into Russian hands.


As for the destruction of energy infrastructure in Ukraine this of course mainly effects civilians then secondary military logistics. And making civilians disgruntled is a good way to cause dissent among Ukraine. Of course if effected areas are annexed by Russia yes it will take a few years to fix properly and of course short term temporary fixes can be brought in. But we also have to remember that majority of Ukrainian energy infrastructure is of Soviet era and will be at least 40+years old (In most cases older), and how well it was maintained during that time is a keyy factor also. So it's very likely that it would be needing upgraded or demolished and completely new infrastructure built. Right now it's destruction is an element of the strategy to winning the war and this element effects various aspects of Ukraine military and civilian.

The UK won't risk domestic version of challenger 2 tanks Chobham armour falling into Russian hands.

Honestly... how long before the UK realises it can't afford to design its own tanks any more... when it shifts to smoothbore guns... how long before they decide that making your own stuff is too expensive... not to mention the cost of having to ship them around the place... so perhaps buying German or French or American tanks might be the future for Britain.

I seem to remember a short while ago the UK talking about phasing out their tank fleets anyway.... which is another way to go.

But we also have to remember that majority of Ukrainian energy infrastructure is of Soviet era and will be at least 40+years old (In most cases older), and how well it was maintained during that time is a keyy factor also.

It could probably do with complete replacement anyway... some EU countries might be a bit jealous at the money spent on the Russian sectors of Ukraine... or should I say the new Russian sectors.

And from experience Chobham armour was classified very high on the scale, and majority of soldiers were never even given a glimpse of its make up and this includes tank crews.

Chobham armour was the first gen stuff for the first Challenger AFAIK, that was paid for by Iran ironically enough, though they had their revolution before any were delivered.

The newer armour had another name which I can't remember off the top of my head... was it dorchester armour?