Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44

ucmvulcan wrote:No, I have been arguing with a relative who backs Ukraine. I have been trying to tell him he is just parroting lies.  The Forbes article was his latest claim.  I hadn't heard that one in a while so I thought I'd ask.  Its good to know his claim is yet more BS like all the rest

Well then you just simply ask him what does he know about the night optics that the Western and Maidan forces are using in Ukraina and how are these optics superior than what Russian are using.

From my experience, in such arguments, we should never tell them that we disagree with them. Just ask them what they know first to evaluate their understanding of the issue.

ucmvulcan wrote:

Nonsense as evident of all current events.  Are you paying attention at all?

Okay,  so  the Forbes claim is just more fiction.  Good to know.

Wagner took Bakmhut fighting at night. Or at least it was a big part of it.

lyle6 wrote:Russia produces and equips more vehicles with thermals in a single month than NATO does in a year.

Admittedly night vision for the infantry is a but lacking but this is a difference in doctrine. DRGs and special forces do have them but for the line infantry complete artillery dominance and infinite starshells to turn night into day is more than enough.

And more modern ones, in bulk.
A proposed thermal cameras for Leopard 2 modernization usually equals 640x512 pixels, and that is just same as "budget" Russian solution applier in parallel to localized Thales ones that are much better.
The catch is proposed modernization. As we speak, only Polish L2A4PL can be considered a serial one.

What is funny again, is how the Internet is full of propaganda crap for the matter that makes most of domestic tank experts simply misinformed.

All Leopards starting from A4 retained the very same devices, with only A6 version get a slightly modernized commanders unit. All modernization packages offer the same standard as the Russian "budget" one, obviously not matching VOMZ production.

And here starts the magical crapp : M1A2 is called to have some fantastic devices ... with double the resolution
It is just another joke, as all of them - up to Sep 2 version - retained the same that was used in the early 90s. With pictures green background and resolution making hard to find if that is a cow or a car. Some changes were made with increasing the wave length it operates, so they reduced the background noises, but that's it.
Do you know what the M1 wankers are doing?  
Mixing the thermal camera resolution with ... screen resolution

The idea that the Russians do not have the capability to make their own night vision equipment is plain BS.

Here is some infantry night vision equipment for example.
http://www.npzoptics.com/catalog/night_optics/pn-14k/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0B1kxjpTs

Here are thermal matrixes which could be vehicle mounted.
https://www.orion-ir.ru/production/opticheskie-elementy/matrichnyy-fotopriemnyy-modul-na-osnove-okhlazhdaemoy-matritsy-fotodiodov-iz-antimonida-indiya-fem18/

What the Russians do not have, is the capability to cheaply mass produce thermal sights like some Chinese companies do. So they import thermal sights from China to put in the cheaper AFVs I think. But the tanks use Russian thermal sights.

As for infantry night vision equipment, I think it is mostly a matter of doctrine where the equipment is mostly given to special units and not regular infantry.

A Spanish army artillery officer of my acquaintance has been interviewed by a Youtube channel and has recorded a 2 hour video offering his professional judgement on the Ukrainian counter offensive

https://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/threads/el-mejor-analisis-de-la-contraofensiva-ucraniana-que-podeis-encontrar-en-la-red-ahora-mismo.1958433/

Since the video is in Spanish and says nothing that has not been written in my blog entries, at the prompt of another Spanish army officer that also comments in my blog, I have written a summary that answers the questions posed about the failure of the offensive, translated and posted here from the above thread

Spanish

"Well, they have a serious problem if what they intend is for the infantry to be in charge of making way for the armor, where the **** are the sappers? Do they Combat Engineer Vehicles or something? and where the **** is the Cavalry on their reconnaissance mission? Do they have Cavalry Scout Vehicles or something? who is in charge of the insertion/infiltration mission? do they have? Do they know that it exists such a thing?
That is, and correct me if I'm wrong, are they carrying out an offensive in which after throwing all kinds of shells without criteria (I wonder if they have observers with or without advanced artillery observation vehicle) on the contact line, which is not the main defense line, at all, and without air support or air defenses they release the infantry to break the Russian, I insist again, on the contact line that is not the main defense and this infantry has as sublime, and more than likely last mission, to facilitate the passage of the armor, trucks, etc, etc???? "


I am not a military man, but as a student of history and a fan of tactics, I can draw up a "checklist" with all the factors that determine the failure or success of an offensive and I gladly answer the questions you raise.

Replies:

- There do not seem to be sappers in sufficient numbers to open passages in the minefields as in El Alamein or Kursk

- Combat Engineer Vehicles are scarce and they have already lost several at the beginning of the offensive, as well as tanks equipped with rollers and plows to clear mines. It has already been mentioned in previous entries, that they are desperately shelling the minefields to blow up the mines.

- Light armored cavalry can not do reconnaissance because the artillery and anti-tank defense are easily loaded. They have already lost several wheeled AMX tank destroyers. The cavalry can only fulfill its scouting mission in a fluid situation. If it can't get through the outpost line it's no use, it's as futile as sending horsemen against barbed wire and machine guns.

- Insertion/infiltration of reconnaissance patrols, it was already mentioned in the recent entry of "Infantry Tactics", although in theory it is easier on this front, in practice minefields and surveillance with thermal cameras and drones makes it very difficult, not to say impossible, to infiltrate reconnaissance patrols

– There is no aerial reconnaissance because the Russians have air superiority, drones are also of no help because of Russian interference. They have satellite photos and NATO intelligence, they know the layout of the positions and they can detect and bomb the command posts that are within their reach, but satellites are not enough

- On advanced artillery observers, any vehicle that gets close enough is smashed, as I have already explained in previous entries and CSF in its video, the Ukrainian artillery is kept behind and can only fire on the first line of positions, and point attacks with long-range rockets against command posts and other targets.

- The Russians control dominant heights, although there are other hills and elevations on the Ukrainian side, the observation capability from the Ukrainian front is limited to about 5-10km in depth, again it was mentioned in detail in the cited article. With the aggravation that here in the steppe there are not the elevated structures that there are in the Donbass mining area that serve as observatories. The Ukrainians have an advantage only by having the high-rise buildings in Ugledar.

- The Ukrainian preparatory bombardments are effectively without any criteria, they are limited to firing at grids, at most, the positions and concentrations detected in the course of a combat. In their desperation they have resorted to firing the Himars rockets at individual trenches and machine gun nests, because the shelters are 15 cm heavy artillery proof, but they are unlikely to be able to withstand the impact of a 20 cm rocket, if it hits…

- All this fighting is for the advanced position of a defense in depth, whose task is not to stop the enemy, only to slow him down, inflict casualties and disorder, there has not yet been fighting on the main line of resistance and the Russians have not commited the reserves either.

- The ukrozombies have tried to overwhelm the handful of defenders, and I say handful, because they are single companies, with the weight of numbers and repeated waves, in the hope that the Russians will run out of artillery ammunition or anti-tank missiles and will be able to finish off the surviving Russian riflemen. It does not work because unfortunately for them the Russian artillery has enough shells on the gun pits and more keep coming, and they lack the masses of men and material to overcome by saturation. These masses were lost in the Battle of Bakhmut and even if they had them, they would not be able to concentrate them without being smashed by Russian aviation and artillery. No matter how horrible and concentrated the slaughter is for unkempt stomachs, they are small-scale fighting, a few hundred Ukros against a few dozen Russians, yesterday in one of these assaults they counted forty corpses

- Anyway, for the infantry to open breaches so that the armor can exploit the rupture is the right thing to do. It is the original concept of the blitzkrieg that was applied in Poland and in France, Model wanted to repeat it in Kursk in view of the strength of the Russian defenses, the infantry had to open passages in the minefields and finish off the anti-tank guns, but he did not have enough infantry to be able to carry it out.

Of course, to do this you need well-trained infantry in assault tactics, with artillery and aviation support and be willing to suffer high casualties.

- I don't know why you are so shocked all of a sudden. I'm tired of seeing the Ukropithecus doing beastly things like these since 2014. Or without going any further back, this is a repeat of the summer offensive in Kherson last year. When other people shared this newspaper on a news site, the pro-Ukrainian censors mocked and described as fantasy the descriptions of the reports from the Russian side in which they described the slaughterhouse in the Ukrainian bridgeheads over the Ingulets River, with the Ukrainian infantry attacking again and again through fields full of corpses and junked armor from the previous assaults, if the statistics of deaths by region published in autumn were not enough proof, now we have videos and photographs of the consequences of similar failed assaults in the same kind of terrain.

- I understand that for professional military personnel like you and Carlos Sanchez are perplexed about what the Ukrainian command intends with this "banzai offensive", because a minimally competent military commander who does not despise the lives of his soldiers would suspend the offensive. Well, because those who lead the Ukrowehrmacht are the geniUSes (l call US strategists like that ironically), and they don't care about the losses, they demand results before the NATO summit anyway. And as in Kherson, the attacks are repeated one after another, to see if there is luck and they find a weak point, or the Russians are exhausted and the defense gives way at some point, as happened in Kherson that the exhausted and short of supplies paratroopers gave way on an exposed salient and the defensive line retreated to a shortened and more solid position supported by a water obstacle, a tributary of the Dnieper.

GarryB wrote:These new vehicles will protect mostly against artillery so a nearby artillery radar could provide them with the target data they need, while BMPT types would be used to blunt any attempted ambush with ATGMs and rockets... the new vehicles may be able to shoot down ATGMs and some rockets... but that would be tricky... and of course 2S38 and perhaps new Pantsir with the new quad minimissiles and TOR with their new bundles of mini missiles for use against drones and attack aircraft.

I suspect Russia can leverage the technology already developed for Kornet ATGM and Igla MAPPAD to design this new series of affordable SAMs

Is there truth to this or is it just -as I suspect- more bull dung?

All night attacks of the Ukros have been annihilated. ´Nuff said.

Regarding the Night combat and use of thermal/NVG optics.

Most comments are true regarding this subject.
most NATO militaries use obsolete thermal/NVG Gear.
if they have NVG's to begin with. they are very scarce.

new ones are very rare, as you know?. budget cuts for decades...

The nvg/thermal ones used in vehicles are indeed of such an poor quality you barely can make out where you are looking at.
you see barely anything when there is overcast and no moonlight.

the picture is very scrambled with very little detail.
Like stated before by Alamo, all you see is a fuzzy black spot on a green background.
You can't tell what it is.

Same goes for the NVG's the troop use. Just what is very near you can see.
Unless the target is illuminated by an infra-red artillery shell, Then for a very brief moment you might get a little detail.
But the object has to be out in the open, like the desert of Afghanistan.
OF course, you can also choose to activate the vehicles IR light/illuminator.
but you just might as well turn on your headlights and telegraph to everyone with an NVG you are there.
IR light is very bright in night vision.

also this brings us to actual night combat, In Afghanistan this was done a few times.
Unless you know exactly where your friendlies are, and they know where you are.
And you know exactly where your enemy is, then it might work. but still it is very high-risk.

Reality has shown that night combat is highly dangerous for all parties involved.
And has resulted in some very nasty blue on blue incidents.
and with that i mean an APC's 30MM cannon punching straight trough it's own troops nasty.
The gunner got told to engage, he hesitated as he could not positive I.D it, commander gave command to fire anyway.

of course as troops you try to mitigate this danger, In Afghanistan we used infra-red breaklights in an empty water bottle, and this was taped to the top of an radio antenna of an vehicle or man-portable radio.
or use of this black IR reflecting tape on the vehicles, that did not work right either as the tape gets lost or gets too dirty too fast to maintain it's reflective property's.
But nothing really worked well. and nobody wants to shoot their own guys by mistake.

all this effort was just to not get blown up by our own guys right?.
You can not do this if your enemy has NVG gear as well or you are just exposing yourself to them.

Yes, in Hollywood every soldier runs around with al kinds of fancy gear.
But in reality most NATO troops themselves do not have NVG gear, or it is obsolete/not effective.
So, ...what on earth is NATO going to give ukraine?.  
There is nothing of value  

Some might remember me commenting how i bought most of my own Gear?. Because A, there was a waiting list for more than a year.
And B, it was not suitable for the job i had to do?.

So keep in mind, this was just our own side dealing with night combat. It did not include an enemy that had the same capacity's.
you better not emit anything when you are fighting an enemy that has the same capabilities as you.

And judging from what i heard what the Ukrainians do, constantly transmitting on the radio's. Using personal cellphones. driving at night with the lights on. Start campfires...etc.
I really do not think they grasp the concept of "stay undetected" .

That all said, i seriously never seen so much Cope from western Media and clowns that still believe all that shit.
All the West's Empire's army's are all-powerful, and the rest of the worlds military's are incompetent. Russians are all drunks sitting all day in the park in track-suits, and the Chinese all still work in rice-paddy's.

I saw a small part of the russian equipment in Afghanistan, they where already ahead of us there. All the propaganda about it being antiquated rust-buckets where bullshit.
People never stop to think and realize these AK's and RPG's have been hammered by the elements in Afghanistan for decades without proper storage and maintenance.
Yet they where still operational to combat us with. Sure, there was a misfire here and then. But not even as much as our own NATO weaponry that misfired.

With western weapons you can not do that. Forget to clean your rifle for a day in the field in Afghanistan and that will probably jam the next day.
Heat build up issues with various NATO machineguns. Resulting in the bolt getting stuck to the point you need to let it cool off, or smash the receiver handle with your helmet untill it gets unstuck.
To of course, just get stuck again in the next few rounds. These locks where dangerous too as the chambered round might cook off because of the heat of the breach.

The new .50 M2HB had these issues too, after one day on the firing range some american SF dude heard me cursing and told me they had the same shit.
That i should get some rough sandpaper and wear down the internal parts so they got room to expand....and if i would part with some of my plastic magazines if his advice worked out.
I asked my senior sargeant, he got mad for wanting to sand down a new weapon and to get lost .

My sergeant tough, gave me the sandpaper and told me to do it. as the weapon was not working anyway.
Next morning on the firing range and me spraying half a bottle of gun oil in it the thing went like it was possesed when i pulled the trigger.
300 rounds further and it was still going just fine.
So, when i had to come clean to the senior sargeant why the M2HB was firing so fast and did not lock up. I almost got scolded again but grudgingly he gave the other gunners the order to do the same.
How sad is it that brand-new weaponry has to be "fixed" by the troops themselves?.

Gun barrels exploding, and i mean these where "fresh" from the factory to Afghanistan.
The stuff just could not handle the "above normal" use and would fail with risk to it's own operator.

Meanwhile Taliban go at it with their Dushka's and PK's and AK's like there is no tommorow.
And the excuses of arms manufacturers in the West for all of this is just pathetic, even worse in most cases they ignore the issues.
So yes, if given the choice. I'd like me some Russian stuff.

The Chinese went with Western forces as force protection to Mali, they where highly trained and sporting the latest in millitary equipment.
Meanwhile NATO showed up there with cold-war era weaponry and munition's they bought in some dump in eastern europe.
Witch, in one incident blew up in the NATO mortar in Mali. killing its crew. Because of course, the munition was not suitable for Use.
But NATO in it's ever worsening munition problems tries to get it's hands on ammo wherever it can.
Yes, it surprised the Chinese too. probably that the stories they where being told at home about NATO's equipment and army's where true.

And you know what is the worst part?. they both treat us westerners with respect. It is we western assholes that look down on them.
these people in the west that spew all this crap about the western wunderwaffe really should be pushed in the first plane to the next uncle Sams unwinnable conflict and find out for themselves how superior the west is the hard way.

Airbornewolf wrote:

Meanwhile Taliban go at it with their Dushka's and PK's and AK's like there is no tommorow.
And the excuses of arms manufacturers in the West for all of this is just pathetic, even worse in most cases they ignore the issues.
So yes, if given the choice. I'd like me some Russian stuff.

It is even better than that.
Part of this weapon is not even Soviet-originated, or Chinese etc.
It is being locally produced, by hand.
With ad hoc assembled materials, and no QC other than local gunsmith.
Those people can be moe experienced that any factory breed specialist, that is for sure. and they can provide weapon o pair with some fancy, custom hand made models costing gozzilion $ ...
But ... this is what works, while NATO gear fails ...

Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation

(19 June 2023)

Part I

During the day, the most active AFU offensive attempts were in South Donetsk and Donetsk directions.

In South Donetsk direction, as a result of competent and self-sacrificing actions of the Vostok Group of Forces units, aviation and artillery, three attacks by AFU combined units have been repelled close to Vremevka salient.

The enemy losses were 1 tank, 12 armoured fighting vehicles, as well as 1 foreign-manufactured combat engineer vehicle.

In addition, 2 enemy attacks have been repelled, during which 2 tanks, 10 infantry fighting vehicles and 2 armoured fighting vehicles have been hit near Malaya Tokmachka (Zaporozhye region).

The enemy losses were over 100 servicemen, 3 tanks, 10 infantry fighting vehicles, 14 armoured fighting vehicles, 4 motor vehicles, 2 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems, and D-20, Msta-B and D-30 howitzers.

In Donetsk direction, active actions of the Yug Group of Forces have successfully repelled 4 enemy attacks close to Pervomayskoye, Petrovskoye and Staromikhailovka (DPR).

The enemy losses were over 340 servicemen, 2 armoured fighting vehicles, 5 motor vehicles, 1 Polish-manufactured Krab self-propelled artillery system, as well as D-20 and Msta-B howitzers.

1 ordnance depot of the AFU 5th Assault Brigade has been destroyed near Ivanovskoye (DPR).

In Kupyansk direction, as a result of the strikes, launched by Army Aviation, artillery and the units of the Zapad Group of Forces, the actions of 2 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been prevented close to Timkovka (Kharkov region).

The enemy losses were up to 45 servicemen, 3 armoured fighting vehicles, 4 motor vehicles, and 1 Polish-manufactured Krab self-propelled artillery system.

Part II

In Krasny Liman direction, aviation and artillery of the Tsentr Group of Forces have hit enemy units near Kuzmino, Makeevka (LPR), and Serebryansky forestry.

The activities of 3 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been disrupted close to Yampolovka (DPR), Chervonaya Dibrova and Kremennaya (LPR).

The enemy losses were up to 105 servicemen, 2 infantry fighting vehicles, 2 armoured fighting vehicles, 2 pickup trucks, 2 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems, as well as D-20 and D-30 howitzers.

In Kherson direction, the enemy losses were over 40 servicemen, 4 motor vehicles and 1 U.S.-manufactured M777 artillery system.

Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have neutralised 93 AFU artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and hardware in 102 areas.

2 artillery depots have been hit: the AFU 1513th artillery ammunition depot and the 65th Mechanised Brigade close to Zaporozhye.

Air defence facilities have shot down 1 Mi-8 helicopter of Ukrainian Air Force near Orekhov (Zaporozhye region).

5 HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles have been also intercepted.

In addition, 14 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles have been shot down close to Mikhailovka, Pyatikhatka, Pologi (Zaporozhye region), Kirillovka (DPR), Nikolayevka, Zmiyovka (LPR), Staraya Zburyovka (Kherson region) and Velikiy Vyselok (Kharkov region).

#MoD (https://t.me/mod_russia_en/7963)


12:45 It’s honestly pretty funny we started getting a deluge of visual proof of masses of destroyed Ukrainian vehicles…and then Oryx decides to retire suddenly lol.

Podlodka77 wrote:

12:45 It’s honestly pretty funny we started getting a deluge of visual proof of masses of destroyed Ukrainian vehicles…and then Oryx decides to retire suddenly lol.

Till recently Oryx was able to spin info and sell Ukrainian losses as Russian losses because Ukraine was using mainly Soviet equipment.
As soon as they switched to Leopards tanks and other western-made equipment, it was obvious who is the one knocking out the shit of the enemy.

What is surprising is that many "western experts" are often citing Oryx as a credible source of info when talking about thousands of destroyed russian tanks.

What an insult toward the most honest and credible Oryx, you have no shame!



It is Russian T-90M, I am telling ya' !!!

And for this title, any comment is redundant....
Their tongue is big, only the balls are small...

Airbornewolf wrote:Regarding the Night combat and use of thermal/NVG optics.
....

Most excellent rant!

Podlodka77 wrote:

Bye bye you pathetic bunch of NAFO faggots

I hope these losers cap themselves out of uncontrollable despair. Burn in hell you evil fcking nazi liars.

lancelot wrote:The idea that the Russians do not have the capability to make their own night vision equipment is plain BS.

Here is some infantry night vision equipment for example.
http://www.npzoptics.com/catalog/night_optics/pn-14k/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr0B1kxjpTs

Here are thermal matrixes which could be vehicle mounted.
https://www.orion-ir.ru/production/opticheskie-elementy/matrichnyy-fotopriemnyy-modul-na-osnove-okhlazhdaemoy-matritsy-fotodiodov-iz-antimonida-indiya-fem18/

What the Russians do not have, is the capability to cheaply mass produce thermal sights like some Chinese companies do. So they import thermal sights from China to put in the cheaper AFVs I think. But the tanks use Russian thermal sights.

As for infantry night vision equipment, I think it is mostly a matter of doctrine where the equipment is mostly given to special units and not regular infantry.

Russia is a fast learner and the SMO is the best thing that has happened to Russia in the midst of Western hostilities in the last 10 years. Not only can Russia adapt its tactics and practically see the results live, it can also refine its technology and, above all, localize arms production (including supplier parts) exclusively in Russia.

Fortunately, Ukraine is an opponent where the survival of the Russian Federation is not at stake. At the beginning of the SMO there were problems here and there, against the war machinery of NATO it could have ended badly. Now Russia has experience with NATO tactics and NATO technology. There aren't that many surprises anymore, the only unknowns are likely to be the 5.gen jets from NATO.

All this talk about Russian Army thermal imaging scopes and night vision goggles are inferior to NATO tech was just pure bullshit.
It may be that some units (special units, etc.) have very good material... but in general most European NATO armies are underfunded. And the US Army doesn't have the latest material in bulk either. As we have seen, tanks, IFVs and APCs need to be mass produced, 100 super awesome tanks with all the fancy Wunderwaffen shit on and in it leads to big NOTHING!

During my time in the Bundeswehr (1998) we only had about 3 night vision attachments for the G3 for the whole company. I was an armoured sapper (Panzerpionier) and our unit was more elite than ordinary sappers.

I find it amusing that the sarcastic "moskali teplovizor nyet"-joke/meme became a seriously meant article a good year after it got old on Twitter.