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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #50

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:42 pm


    Basically what I am saying is I am not sure why russia is drawing down so heavily on its stock of vehicles.

    Stored vehicles are to be used, they are not museum pieces... they have been stored for a rainy day and it is a rainy day.

    It is a chance to test upgrades and improvements too.

    No tank is invincible on the battlefield, not even the T-14, but different tanks have different levels of protection, but add on armour and cages and ERA and even Nakidka and drone jammers means even an ancient vehicle can deliver HE accurately and be relatively safe from likely enemy fire.

    Why not use it... and at the same time use up the old ammo that is stored as well.

    When it comes to a coordinated tank firing at a trench with a drone overhead giving fire correction a 100mm rifled gun is just as good as a 125mm smoothbore.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:50 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #50 - Page 34 20231110

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:08 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Those tanks are so much outdated and so pathetic armored, that no effort applied can solve that.
    Ukrs might have had some ex Soviet era stock of reactive armor boxes, but those are gone after a long war.
    They have never produced Kontakt V, and the Ukrainian Nozh was not produced in a waste numbers.
    With 70 mm base armor, applying Kontakt would be just a waste of it. It won't help them much, even against the lightest hand carried single use RPG18. It still will be penetrated and destroyed.
    So the fact they didn't bother to apply useless efforts is proof of a reasonable approach.
    The lack of cages is wondering, tho.
    Claiming the armor of the Leopard 1 is 70 mm 'at its thickest' like they did is also a huge red herring. The Leopard 1 has basically the same protection as an APC. The truth is a 30 mm autocannon can penetrate it in nearly all of its surface. I would rather be in a T-62 to be honest.

    As for reactive armor, they can like get Kontakt-1, if not of their own production, the Poles have a roughly similar equivalent. But like you said this is a waste of time on the Leopard 1 since even an autocannon can penetrate it and the Kontakt-1 will be of zero help in addressing that. Like you said what they should be doing is adding cage armor to it. At least it would offer some protection against HEAT shells.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:18 pm

    MMBR wrote:
    So my question is, why are stocks of vehicles being used up so much?
    Because the demand is high and the Russians prefer to lose heavy metal over the blood of their men?

    As we've observed through the majority of the conflict, the Russians are many times more mechanized, fire multiple times more ammunition and train much more heavily than their counterparts. Naturally they lose more heavy equipment both from combat and virtual (wear and tear) attrition.

    This material advantage directly translates into a massive snowballing advantage in combat power over the Ukrainians who have suffered a dismal 10:1 loss exchange to the Russians.

    In videogame terms, its like playing against some trust fund kid who has unlimited funds to whale on the most broken gear while you have to play free until the paycheck comes. He also doesn't need to go to work so he's constantly sharpening and improving so you're constantly getting skill issued everytime you play against him.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:39 pm

    Furthermore the old equipment has still a role to play now.

    In the future, maybe even with upgrades it will have less utility.

    The role of the reserves are to be used in times like this. This will also allow slowly to build new reserves in peacetimes.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:52 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Claiming the armor of the Leopard 1 is 70 mm 'at its thickest' like they did is also a huge red herring. The Leopard 1 has basically the same protection as an APC. The truth is a 30 mm autocannon can penetrate it in nearly all of its surface. I would rather be in a T-62 to be honest.

    As for reactive armor, they can like get Kontakt-1, if not of their own production, the Poles have a roughly similar equivalent. But like you said this  is a waste of time on the Leopard 1 since even an autocannon can penetrate it and the Kontakt-1 will be of zero help in addressing that. Like you said what they should be doing is adding cage armor to it. At least it would offer some protection against HEAT shells.

    ERAWA is much better than vanilla Kontakt-1, but there must be something behind it to cover. It disrupts cumulative stream by a solid factor, but even it that would be 70% reduction, 70 mm behind will be pierced anyway. No double warhead is needed here.
    Considering cages, I was more focused on antidrone application.
    Those tanks will be devastated by the drones, having a roof protection of only 8 (EIGHT !sic!) mm steel plate, with only ammo magazine and driver's seat covered by an astonishing 30 mm.
    There is one more thing worth mentioning, as the western shitstream is already busy proving how those tanks are not pathetic, and "Russkie are using T-55!!!" ...
    At the moment, propaganda spin is busy pretending that it was all fine with the tank, as it was a LIGHT one. What a Face Laughing Laughing Laughing
    It is quite funny, as it is heavier than T-62, which is armed with an enormously more potent gun. T-62s thinnest armor is DOUBLE the L1s, while the thickest is THREE TIMES of it.
    If we add BDD to that, it gets the weight of L1, having around QUADRUPLE the protection level Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Sometimes the propaganda made to cover the absurdity of this situation runs so far from the common sense, that became absurd itself.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:06 pm

    RF drone flies into Ukrainian hideout in Avdiivka region
    The reaction of the controller is hilarious. Like winning the KHL championship.

    The lack of cages is wondering, tho.
    All cages are needed to protect the windows of Zelenskis houses.

    Furthermore the old equipment has still a role to play now.
    T-72´s and T-80´s from the 80´s are not old, at least for military equipment.
    Easy to upgrade.
    Same for all sorts of guns, rocket launchers.
    And even a ride on some old BRDM-2 is better than no vehicle at all. Very Happy

    The role of the reserves are to be used in times like this.
    The SMO is only one reason, the expansion of the Armed Forces is the other one.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:42 pm

    @ hole
    I agree about t72 and t80s but this operation has seen also the use of older t55 and t62, even if not as main battle tanks (but they are still not worse than the leopard 1).

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:02 pm

    It is quite a tricky perspective.
    What does "not worse" mean?
    Both 55 and 62s are better armored.
    62 is better armed.
    As long as both won't be seriously upgraded with night vision systems, the fire control of L1A5 is superior.
    So the real question is what are those tanks supposed to do on the battlefield?
    Russkie are using them as artillery. Both are much more resilient rather than typical SPG, and both will do better when strucked with counter battery fire.
    And both can deliver quite effective, 80s mod HE ammunition up to the range of most 122 mm cal.
    It is an effective niche where those can be placed, utilizing warehouses full of 40+ y/o ammunition stock.

    While Ukrs are forced to use L1s as a regular tank.
    Even the Slovenian M55s are a class better.
    It will be decimated.
    Poor khokhol souls are already doomed.

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    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:50 pm

    Warning: This post is merely used for entertainment, consists of purely comical content. Exclamation  Exclamation  Exclamation

    https://english.nv.ua/nation/ukrainian-armed-forces-we-want-enemy-to-be-hungry-cold-and-have-no-desire-to-fight-50369533.html

    ‘We want them to be cold & hungry’ — Ukraine’s plans to make winter intolerable for Russian invaders

    The Ukrainian Armed Forces will try to "disrupt" Russian logistics routes during the winter to make it impossible to supply weapons, food, and other necessities, Volodymyr Fityo, Ukraine’s Ground Forces Command spokesperson, said on national television on Nov. 19.

    "Our main task is to ensure that everything that happens now helps the Ukrainian army and, conversely, harms the Russian invaders. We want them to be hungry, cold, and have no desire to fight," he said, adding that the enemy should expect "surprises from the sky."

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    Post  mnztr Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:08 pm

    I wonder when they will introduce airburst warheads for drones. A claymore mine would be so effective. I think if you see a drone coming at you, probably best to run towards it then turn 90 degrees as soon as it starts its dive and then dive for cover.
    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:10 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Warning: This post is merely used for entertainment, consists of purely comical content. Exclamation  Exclamation  Exclamation

    https://english.nv.ua/nation/ukrainian-armed-forces-we-want-enemy-to-be-hungry-cold-and-have-no-desire-to-fight-50369533.html

    ‘We want them to be cold & hungry’ — Ukraine’s plans to make winter intolerable for Russian invaders

    The Ukrainian Armed Forces will try to "disrupt" Russian logistics routes during the winter to make it impossible to supply weapons, food, and other necessities, Volodymyr Fityo, Ukraine’s Ground Forces Command spokesperson, said on national television on Nov. 19.

    "Our main task is to ensure that everything that happens now helps the Ukrainian army and, conversely, harms the Russian invaders. We want them to be hungry, cold, and have no desire to fight," he said, adding that the enemy should expect "surprises from the sky."

    The Ukrainians and their "masters" have always tried to project what is happening to them as actually happening to the Russians. Suspect

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:31 pm

    still waiting for a blotch of red paint on Ukraine's map.

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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:48 pm

    Geraniums flying towards Nikolaev now.

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    Post  mr_hd Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:01 pm

    So it seems that Ukraine has major breakthrough on the left bank of the river. Town Oleshky is evacuated right now...
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:23 pm

    Explosions in the Dnepropetrovsk region .

    #source

    @Slavyangrad

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    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:38 pm

    The Russian Ministry of Defense managed to return the bodies of dead servicemen during an exchange with the Ukrainian side. State Duma deputy and representative of the parliamentary coordination group on military operations Shamsail Saraliev told RBC about this on November 20 .

    Thus, the Russian Ministry of Defense returned 80 bodies of Russian military personnel. At the same time, the Ukrainian coordination headquarters for the treatment of prisoners of war reported the return of 94 bodies of dead Ukrainian soldiers during this exchange.

    The exchange itself took place with the assistance and participation of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the coordination headquarters of Ukraine added .
    “We are agreeing on wider access for the ICRC to prisoners of war”

    The head of the Moscow ICRC delegation, Ikhtiyar Aslanov, talks about the humanitarian situation in the Northern Military District zone, the situation at the Zaporozhye NPP and the search for missing people

    The last exchange of bodies between Russia and Ukraine took place in October. Then the Russian side received the bodies of 60 servicemen, and the Ukrainian side received 64 bodies.

    Prior to this, in July, as a result of negotiations, 45 Russian military personnel, who were in mortal danger in captivity, were returned from territory controlled by Kiev . The released soldiers were taken to medical facilities for further treatment and rehabilitation.

    The special operation to protect Donbass , the beginning of which was announced by Russian President Vladimir Putin on February 24, 2022, continues. The decision was made against the backdrop of an aggravation of the situation in the region due to shelling by the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1608242/2023-11-20/deputat-gosdumy-soobshchil-o-vozvrashchenii-80-tel-voennykh-rf-v-khode-obmena-s-ukrainoi?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:24 pm

    Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Nikolai Azarov estimated on Monday that the population of Ukraine shrank by 4 million to 19 million in the past two month

    In early October, Azarov said there were 23 million people living in Ukraine.
    "According to the most modest calculations, only 19 million continue to live in the territory controlled by the regime in Kiev. It’s a scary figure," he wrote on social media.
    He attributed the population decline to a massive outflow of workforce, in addition to combat casualties.


    "Imagine that peace will be restored tomorrow. And a border of some sort will be drawn. Ukraine will need to be rebuilt! Who will do it if there is now a gaping workforce deficit?" Azarov added.

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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:14 pm

    Russkie are using them as artillery. Both are much more resilient rather than typical SPG, and both will do better when strucked with counter battery fire.
    Taking the experience of the SMO into account, the question arises if the assault gun will make a comeback.
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #50 - Page 34 003117
    Simpler as a tank but good armor protection and some big gun.

    surprises from the sky
    Flying pigs? Suspect

    And a border of some sort will be drawn.
    Russia should just keep the borders with Poland and Romania.
    No need to redraw them. Very Happy

    The western-most regions could be rented to some North-Korean companies and farmers. Wink

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:20 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Taking the experience of the SMO into account, the question arises if the assault gun will make a comeback.

    If you are asking me - the answer is : hardly.
    Sure 100 or 115 mm ammo can do the job - but won't have the punch of higher caliber. Nor range. scratch
    This war is weird.
    If that will be the reality of the next ones? scratch
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:30 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:And a border of some sort will be drawn.
    Hole wrote:
    Russia should just keep the borders with Poland and Romania.
    No need to redraw them. Very Happy

    Totally agree.
    There is no need of a country called Ukraine, anyway.

    By the way, concerning the people that left. Why is it a problem for Russia. Unless those people are refugees in Russia, they are a problem for the host countries in the west and in Poland. Russia does not need to allow them back at the end of the SMO. Problem solved. They will be a problem for the west (and in the case of Poland they can even threaten polish statehood.

    Hole wrote:
    The western-most regions could be rented to some North-Korean companies and farmers. Wink

    LOL it could be a good idea. They did not want the russians they get the north Koreans (as long as it is only temporary and only for some farms)

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    Post  Belisarius Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:41 pm

    Ukrainian officer: My M109 Paladin SPH has an accuracy error of 70m

    https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2023/11/16/ukrainian-officer-my-m109-paladin-sph-has-an-accuracy-error-of-70m/

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    Post  Godric Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:46 pm

    HaHols killing Hahols cheers cheers , outside Pivdenne near Gorlovka after refusing to support another unit being pummeled by the Red Army and drones, 13.58 minutes in

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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:50 pm

    Geraniums in Kyiv region

    Explosions and air defense operations are reported.

    ⚡Explosions in Khmelnitsky region

    ⚡Another group of Geraniums is flying to Starokonstantinov

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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:52 pm

    mr_hd wrote:So it seems that Ukraine has major breakthrough on the left bank of the river. Town Oleshky is evacuated right now...

    Major breakthrough?

    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Russians are allowing the Ukrops to fill a nice big fire bag until they are ready to eradicate the meat within. Poor little NAFO. It must be difficult for a banderite-sympathiser to deal with reality in these interesting times Razz

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