Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

JohninMK wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

It clearly went into the sea, they will not be able to recover the aircraft.

Don't bank on that, I doubt they want anyone else recovering it. Or they could destroy it on the seabed. Expect the Yantar to return perhaps?

Oh they will recover the black boxes sure and they may destroy the wreck but they will not recover the frame. Which is what I was saying,

Ned86 wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

Sorry but China is second place in the navy world.

Also what does Kaliber have to do with this? We aren't talking about that missile. You can't bring up some other piece of equipment and say "Well this works awesome so lets ignore this failure" what kind of logic is that.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

I don't agree here, I have spent much time with the Navy. I have spent much time around AC's.

This isn't a normal thing, there is a thing called Quality check you don't put the dam aircraft on the deck unless you are dam sure all potential have been addressed. The aircraft suffered a technical failure, this is a brand new aircraft. MIG is known for not making reliable aircraft this is a problem they never fixed.

Since the idea was the soviets replaced them every ten years so they didn't have to worry about quality control much.

Still AC experience has nothing to do with this situation. The plane broke down, I don't see why people are trying to defend this with "It's the Ships first real deployment, it's a rookie pilot" THat had nothing to do with this situation.

I have never seen my nations navy out aircraft on a deck they had doubts on, shit never even the F-35 had this kind of mess up yet.

There is clearly a problem with the MIG-29K if one suffered a failure so dam soon. Maybe it was just a freak accident? we don't know.

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.

https://news.usni.org/2015/05/12/breaking-navy-super-hornet-crashes-in-persian-gulf-crew-safely-recovered

I can find plenty more. And this is with an aircraft that should have all its problems sorted as well.

Yeah, personally I think Mikoyans rep is pretty much non repairable at this point. I think renaming company and putting it under different management may be best option. Or let Sukhoi Irkutsk aviation industry take over or something.

miketheterrible wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

I don't agree here, I have spent much time with the Navy. I have spent much time around AC's.

This isn't a normal thing, there is a thing called Quality check you don't put the dam aircraft on the deck unless you are dam sure all potential have been addressed. The aircraft suffered a technical failure, this is a brand new aircraft. MIG is known for not making reliable aircraft this is a problem they never fixed.

Since the idea was the soviets replaced them every ten years so they didn't have to worry about quality control much.

Still AC experience has nothing to do with this situation. The plane broke down, I don't see why people are trying to defend this with "It's the Ships first real deployment, it's a rookie pilot" THat had nothing to do with this situation.

I have never seen my nations navy out aircraft on a deck they had doubts on, shit never even the F-35 had this kind of mess up yet.

There is clearly a problem with the MIG-29K if one suffered a failure so dam soon. Maybe it was just a freak accident? we don't know.

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.

https://news.usni.org/2015/05/12/breaking-navy-super-hornet-crashes-in-persian-gulf-crew-safely-recovered

I can find plenty more.  And this is with an aircraft that should have all its problems sorted as well.

Yeah, personally I think Mikoyans rep is pretty much non repairable at this point. I think renaming company and putting it under different management may be best option. Or let Sukhoi Irkutsk aviation industry take over or something.

An old super Hornet yes, this isn't a brand spanking new aircraft. Last time they built a new Super Hornet was like six years ago.

This isn't the same situation so please don't try and disguise it like such or would you rather I ask my navy friends and get their opinions they will have nothing but negative things to say.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

I don't agree here, I have spent much time with the Navy. I have spent much time around AC's.

This isn't a normal thing, there is a thing called Quality check you don't put the dam aircraft on the deck unless you are dam sure all potential have been addressed. The aircraft suffered a technical failure, this is a brand new aircraft. MIG is known for not making reliable aircraft this is a problem they never fixed.

Since the idea was the soviets replaced them every ten years so they didn't have to worry about quality control much.

Still AC experience has nothing to do with this situation. The plane broke down, I don't see why people are trying to defend this with "It's the Ships first real deployment, it's a rookie pilot" THat had nothing to do with this situation.

I have never seen my nations navy out aircraft on a deck they had doubts on, shit never even the F-35 had this kind of mess up yet.

There is clearly a problem with the MIG-29K if one suffered a failure so dam soon. Maybe it was just a freak accident? we don't know.

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.

https://news.usni.org/2015/05/12/breaking-navy-super-hornet-crashes-in-persian-gulf-crew-safely-recovered

I can find plenty more.  And this is with an aircraft that should have all its problems sorted as well.

Yeah, personally I think Mikoyans rep is pretty much non repairable at this point. I think renaming company and putting it under different management may be best option. Or let Sukhoi Irkutsk aviation industry take over or something.

An old super Hornet yes, this isn't a brand spanking new aircraft. Last time they built a new Super Hornet was like six years ago.

This isn't the same situation so please don't try and disguise it like such or would you rather I ask my navy friends and get their opinions they will have nothing but negative things to say.

I don't really care what you and your welfare queen friends have to say about the matter. Brand spanking new F-16 crashed killing Iraqi pilot and it didn't come off a carrier either. So don't play this game with me. They should have sorted the issue with their jets, even our F-18s in Canada don't fall out of the sky or crash into each other.

Mikoyan was always questionable quality vs high quality sukhoi and I know that. Dunno why the Russian government bothers with them anymore anyway as Sukhoi has competing enterprises between Irkutsk and Knaapo so adding in another brand that has had spotty reliability for years won't do well for Russia. Not in current state.

But US jets are pretty crap too these days.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:[.

..........

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.

Hey, I am not trying to sweep anything anywhere. I am just saying that people are going into overdrive for nothing here:

-Until Kuznetzov gets reactors and catapults it is nothing more than testbed.

-MiG-29K is not some super advanced.plane, it is old budget model tweaked for Navy.

-MiG as a manufacturer should have been ditched long ago, they are no longer able to play in the big league. If this motivates Russian Military to finally take them off life support then this crash will be blessing in disguise.

-MiG, Kuznetzov AC and Russian carrier Navy barely had any reputation to begin with so it's not like it can go any lower can it?

War effort is not affected in any way whatsoever. That is only thing that matters.Bruised ego of some dumbass admirals and MiG lobbyists is irrelevant and well deserved.

Since Sukhoi doesn't make smaller aircrafts, then there is still need for Mikoyan jets. But the issue is entirely the management and the lack of attempting to change suppliers of parts. They had issues with fly by wire for years, and still do on odd occasion which leads me to believe they never fixed the initial issue.

MiG-29K is based off of MiG-29M series but for navy. MiG-29M is impressive in its capabilities and large use of composite materials. In all, it is a very capable fighter to compete. Even build quality is pretty good. But they seem to constantly suffer from some technical problems and what can be done? The sokol plant was handed to Mikoyan recently to be able to solve these issues. It didn't. Mikoyan itself may not to be blamed but Sokol plant, which now by default, is blamed on Mikoyan. But reality is that someone is either cutting corners to save money or there is a real lack of QC. NAPO, KnAAPo, Irkutsk don't suffer these issues.

Until Sukhoi can start making smaller jets, Russia needs Mikoyan. Just not in current form.

miketheterrible wrote:Since Sukhoi doesn't make smaller aircrafts, then there is still need for Mikoyan jets. But the issue is entirely the management and the lack of attempting to change suppliers of parts. They had issues with fly by wire for years, and still do on odd occasion which leads me to believe they never fixed the initial issue.

MiG-29K is based off of MiG-29M series but for navy. MiG-29M is impressive in its capabilities and large use of composite materials. In all, it is a very capable fighter to compete. Even build quality is pretty good. But they seem to constantly suffer from some technical problems and what can be done? The sokol plant was handed to Mikoyan recently to be able to solve these issues. It didn't. Mikoyan itself may not to be blamed but Sokol plant, which now by default, is blamed on Mikoyan. But reality is that someone is either cutting corners to save money or there is a real lack of QC. NAPO, KnAAPo, Irkutsk don't suffer these issues.

Until Sukhoi can start making smaller jets, Russia needs Mikoyan. Just not in current form.

QC in aviation is quite extensive, company where my father worked produced many quality control measurement etalon hand-held tools for USSR including aviation industry. Its harsh to say they "do not have quality control", as they do, it exists everywhere.

There are other issues that emerge in aviation and engineering in general, inprecise tooling, inadequate materials...

Militarov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Since Sukhoi doesn't make smaller aircrafts, then there is still need for Mikoyan jets. But the issue is entirely the management and the lack of attempting to change suppliers of parts. They had issues with fly by wire for years, and still do on odd occasion which leads me to believe they never fixed the initial issue.

MiG-29K is based off of MiG-29M series but for navy. MiG-29M is impressive in its capabilities and large use of composite materials. In all, it is a very capable fighter to compete. Even build quality is pretty good. But they seem to constantly suffer from some technical problems and what can be done? The sokol plant was handed to Mikoyan recently to be able to solve these issues. It didn't. Mikoyan itself may not to be blamed but Sokol plant, which now by default, is blamed on Mikoyan. But reality is that someone is either cutting corners to save money or there is a real lack of QC. NAPO, KnAAPo, Irkutsk don't suffer these issues.

Until Sukhoi can start making smaller jets, Russia needs Mikoyan. Just not in current form.

QC in aviation is quite extensive, company where my father worked produced many quality control measurement etalon hand-held tools for USSR including aviation industry. Its harsh to say they "do not have quality control", as they do, it exists everywhere.

There are other issues that emerge in aviation and engineering in general, inprecise tooling, inadequate materials...

Of course. And Sukhoi, Lockheed, Boeing, etc all had their issues.

But something about Mikoyan seems to suffer far more than the rest. I do love my MiG's. MiG-23, 25 and 31 but the MiG-29's just were really lackluster in performance in the past and reliability. Now that the company has more control in itself than the MoD does, they come out with really impressive equipment. MiG-31BM and BSM are very impressive interceptors. But they still lack reliability it seems. While this could very well indeed be a freak accident, it isn't new that a new jet from Mikoyan decides to crash due to malfunctions. I know QC is very difficult and issues arise, but Mikoyan needs to have a tighter control on their suppliers.

I do hope they fix the issues, and I do hope that MiG-35 turns out to be an awesome jet with its AESA radar and all, as it would be one of the most advanced planes in Russian inventory. But with its cost being nearly as high as Su-35 or being maybe even higher and its performance being much less, and with Mikoyans questionable reliability, it just seems to me to be a much safer investment to buy Sukhoi jets like Su-30 and 35. I understand the need for a lighter jet for the military. If Sukhoi went ahead with Su-54 single jet engine aircraft back in the day, they would have a reliable light aircraft. But.....

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Ned86 wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

Sorry but China is second place in the navy world.

Also what does Kaliber have to do with this? We aren't talking about that missile. You can't bring up some other piece of equipment and say "Well this works awesome so lets ignore this failure" what kind of logic is that.

I mentioned Kalibr missile system in a context of Russian navy respect. It was nothing to do with MIG-29K accident. Accident happens, just check how many US airplanes and helicopters were lost in Iraq and Afghanistan and then compare that to Russian losses in Syria.
I just can't understand so much frustration because of one accident.
Western propaganda is already filling all headlines about 'Putin fail in Syria' and unreliable Russian military Technics. Most of these propaganda came from UK which even doesn't have anything like Kuznetsov. It seems that western journalists is just waiting to something bad to happen to Russian forces, so they can make 'big' stories.
First we had headlines filled with Smoky Kuznetsov, then with Towing Kuznetsov, now about this Mig crash........

regarding China navy power, it still behind russian navy in many things. China SSBN, SSGN, SSN are well behind Russian navy. China does't have anything to match Oscar II, Yasen, Akula and Sierra class submarines. Btw, there is nothing to match Oscar II class firepower in the NATO too. So we shouldn't underestimate these vessels and fire power which russian navy posses having them.
YES, China has a larger number of Destroyer and Frigates and that gives it big advantage. Still, Russia has some unique weapons systems which is far better then Chinese ones. Also Russia is speding up building modern Destroyer like Frigates(Gorshkov and Grigorovich), as well as Corvettes and small missile corvettes and I beleive that as soon as they fix this issue with Ukraine parts they will be able to catch up with rising china navy.
Still, China can't compete with Russian and US submarine industry and thus they will be behind Russia probably in the next 10-15 years. They just don't have that much experience and knowledge like Russia.

Ned86 wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

They did not fly before today over Syria, they flew yesterday with Su-33s to coordinate with AF assets in Latakia only. They flew in Baltic too but this does not matter at all, this was first day they reached Syria, it was supposed to be the peak of whole thing. Real operations started yesterday...

You are aware of the general state of the RuNAV last 20 years, right? What is not clear there? No major ship built in 25 years, dwindling numbers of capital ships, accidents, delays...

Attacking Land targets with Granit is possible in ideal situation, but not very likely.

So Oscar II is in Med... great, how does it exactly relates to crashed MiG-29K? In ANY way, whatsoever? It doesnt really.

Also saying RuNAV is second most powerful navy is stretching it big time. What is with China or Japan? Their navies are massive and got far newer ships on disposal. Lets put aside fact you have growing navies like South Korea.

Militarov wrote:
They did not fly before today over Syria, they flew yesterday with Su-33s to coordinate with AF assets in Latakia only. They flew in Baltic too but this does not matter at all, this was first day they reached Syria, it was supposed to be the peak of whole thing. Real operations started yesterday...

OK mate, then this crash desn't metter at all too. Tomorrow they gonna start massive operation and then you gonna see

Militarov wrote:
You are aware of the general state of the RuNAV last 20 years, right? What is not clear there? No major ship built in 25 years, dwindling numbers of capital ships, accidents, delays...

Yes I am aware, but it seems that you didn't. Just please double check what did they build after collapse of the USSR.
To remind you they have built 5 Oscar II class, 7 Akula class, 2 Kilo class, 6 improved Kilo class, 1 lada class, 3 Borei class, 1 yasen class plus few secret experimental submarines like Sarov, Podmoskovye and etc.
Then they have built Petr Veliki cruiser, Admiral Ushakov 956 Destroyers, Admiral Chabanenko Destroyer, Yaroslav Mudry frigate, 2 gepard class frigate, 3 Grigorovich class frigates, 2 Gorshkov class, 5 Project 20380 corvetes, 5 buyan m class corvette and several more missile boats.
In total they built:
25 submarines(16 nuclear + 9 Diesel)
9 ocean going ships + 12 littoral combat ships

So mate, don't tell us that western media stereotype like "Russia didn't built any mayor ships in 25 years". Pay attention and you gonna see that they have built same number of ships like UK and France for example, or even more. Also, new Boreis, Yasens and Improved Kilos are comming.

Militarov wrote:
Attacking Land targets with Granit is possible in ideal situation, but not very likely.

It is very likely if you attack mayor targets at coast.

Militarov wrote:
So Oscar II is in Med... great, how does it exactly relates to crashed MiG-29K? In ANY way, whatsoever? It doesnt really.

Correct. But, you mentioned that they(russian navy) needs to impress western navies. So, Oscar II is best for that.

Militarov wrote:
Also saying RuNAV is second most powerful navy is stretching it big time. What is with China or Japan? Their navies are massive and got far newer ships on disposal. Lets put aside fact you have growing navies like South Korea.

You can't just look at numbers. I told already that china has large number of destroyers and frigates. But still they can't match russian navy. You forgot that China has just 250 nuclear warheads, South Korea and Japan don't have at all.......compare that to Russian 7000 warheads of which 1900 are ready to fire. Now question is, does Russia need to have same number of frigates and destroyers like Korea and Japan or more?
Also, Russian main navy power are nuclear submarines. Neither China, nor Japan or Korea can't match that.

Militarov wrote:

Ned86 wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

They did not fly before today over Syria, they flew yesterday with Su-33s to coordinate with AF assets in Latakia only. They flew in Baltic too but this does not matter at all, this was first day they reached Syria, it was supposed to be the peak of whole thing. Real operations started yesterday...

You are aware of the general state of the RuNAV last 20 years, right? What is not clear there? No major ship built in 25 years, dwindling numbers of capital ships, accidents, delays...

Attacking Land targets with Granit is possible in ideal situation, but not very likely.

So Oscar II is in Med... great, how does it exactly relates to crashed MiG-29K? In ANY way, whatsoever? It doesnt really.

Also saying RuNAV is second most powerful navy is stretching it big time. What is with China or Japan? Their navies are massive and got far newer ships on disposal. Lets put aside fact you have growing navies like South Korea.

Runavy is advancing again with the Borei being built also the new surface ships like 20386 being built, etc. I have to hand it to Russia, they can do a lot on a smaller budget.

Sucks it happened but the other jets are still flying off the Kuznetsov. Su-33 (older) and the other MiG-29's. So it is being overblown by others and I admit I am also guilty.

Ned86 wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Ned86 wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

Sorry but China is second place in the navy world.

Also what does Kaliber have to do with this? We aren't talking about that missile. You can't bring up some other piece of equipment and say "Well this works awesome so lets ignore this failure" what kind of logic is that.

I mentioned Kalibr missile system in a context of Russian navy respect. It was nothing to do with MIG-29K accident. Accident happens, just check how many US airplanes and helicopters were lost in Iraq and Afghanistan and then compare that to Russian losses in Syria.
I just can't understand so much frustration because of one accident.
Western propaganda is already filling all headlines about 'Putin fail in Syria' and unreliable Russian military Technics. Most of these propaganda came from UK which even doesn't have anything like Kuznetsov. It seems that western journalists is just waiting to something bad to happen to Russian forces, so they can make 'big' stories.
First we had headlines filled with Smoky Kuznetsov, then with Towing Kuznetsov, now about this Mig crash........

regarding China navy power, it still behind russian navy in many things. China SSBN, SSGN, SSN are well behind Russian navy. China does't have anything to match Oscar II, Yasen, Akula and Sierra class submarines. Btw, there is nothing to match Oscar II class firepower in the NATO too. So we shouldn't underestimate these vessels and fire power which russian navy posses having them.
YES, China has a larger number of Destroyer and Frigates and that gives it big advantage. Still, Russia has some unique weapons systems which is far better then Chinese ones. Also Russia is speding up building modern Destroyer like Frigates(Gorshkov and Grigorovich), as well as Corvettes and small missile corvettes and I beleive that as soon as they fix this issue with Ukraine parts they will be able to catch up with rising china navy.
Still, China can't compete with Russian and US submarine industry and thus they will be behind Russia probably in the next 10-15 years. They just don't have that much experience and knowledge like Russia.

Russia is in low intensity conflict here, aganist enemy that has no Air Defence or very, very little of it, its not really comparable with full scale war they had in Iraq. And US is there for over a decade with hundreds of helicopters and aircraft deployed, Russians are yet to reach 1 year of deployment with never exceeding 40 borts.

Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.

Its behind Russians in what? Number of nuclear subs? And its outperfoming RuNAV in almost every aspect other than number of SSN-s at this moment.

Over half of those you listed were not "built" by Russia, they were "finished" by Russia. Majority of the hulls were already finished in USSR times and then reached stage where it was cheaper to finish rather than scrap them.

Type 039A is equal if not better than Imp. Kilo, plus it has AIP, somewhat limiting, but AIP.

You can have no matter what kind of subs, if you dont have surface fleet to match it they will get hunted down by ASW assets and be or destroyed or captured. If it was that easy Japan would just build 100 submarines and call it a day. Please stop writing bollocks.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

We don't even know what the problem is yet...

Is it going to suffocate its pilots like the F-22s are doing still, or will the flight control system fail and cause a crash on takeoff like one F-22 also did...

New planes have new problems.

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

Are you listening to what you are saying?

New unproven, largely untested aircraft sometimes fail when used for the first few times... look at the vertical tail problems with the F-111... they lost about 6 aircraft operationally before they worked out what the problem was.

Or scrap MiGs altogether and restart Su-33 line. Make them also easier to store in order to increase numbers onboard the ship. At this point, I would just let MiG collapse under its own incompetence. Let Yakovlev or someone else take over. We may see more interesting projects and better quality.

Wow... the chicken little syndrome is strong on this thread... so we should also put Boeing under new management... I remember seeing an F-22 crash on takeoff due to horizontal tail flutter problems... not to mention the suffocation of pilots... hell... scrap the F-22, sink Boeing and just buy Chinese fighters because they never make mistakes....

Doubt Mikoyan will fix this issue since it has happened so many times before.

What has happened so many times before exactly?

Oh they will recover the black boxes sure and they may destroy the wreck but they will not recover the frame. Which is what I was saying,

So many people with such expert knowledge... so MiG makes bad aircraft... I guess that is why no one in the west has ever heard of them..., they wont recover the airframe... any other nuggets of knowledge you want to share?

What is Putin having for breakfast tomorrow?

Sorry but China is second place in the navy world.

Really?

China is a superpower.... near China... in one Ocean.

Also what does Kaliber have to do with this? We aren't talking about that missile. You can't bring up some other piece of equipment and say "Well this works awesome so lets ignore this failure" what kind of logic is that.

Kalibr is not used by any other branch of the Russian military... it is the primary Navy strike weapon against ground targets. They are clearly interested in testing the strike capabilities of the MiG-29K, but for the moment the Kalibr is the primary land strike weapon.

Yeah, personally I think Mikoyans rep is pretty much non repairable at this point. I think renaming company and putting it under different management may be best option. Or let Sukhoi Irkutsk aviation industry take over or something.

Or we could be rational and find out what actually happened and then work out what might solve the problem.

An old super Hornet yes, this isn't a brand spanking new aircraft. Last time they built a new Super Hornet was like six years ago.

So proven aircraft still crash but brand new aircraft are not allowed to?

This isn't the same situation so please don't try and disguise it like such or would you rather I ask my navy friends and get their opinions they will have nothing but negative things to say.

Yeah... I am sure the opinion of Nazis regarding Jews would be valuable here too. NOT.

Mikoyan was always questionable quality vs high quality sukhoi and I know that.

You keep repeating that... do you have any facts to actually back that up or are we talking opinion.

I realise seeing a MiG-29 at an airshow crash about a million times can effect ones opinion of things but it does not reflect the actual reality on the ground.

-MiG as a manufacturer should have been ditched long ago, they are no longer able to play in the big league. If this motivates Russian Military to finally take them off life support then this crash will be blessing in disguise.

Yeah... using that logic in 2008 there were lots of deficiencies in the Russian military after years of no money and neglect... perhaps they should have just fired them all and outsourced the defence of Russia to say China, or South Korea...

That of course will damage Klimov as MiG tends to use Klimov engines... but who cares about a company that makes engines or a company that makes aircraft radars after all one plane crashed lets fire the whole company... which of course will have a critical effect on all the companies that company subcontracts with... cause Sukhois never crash...

-MiG, Kuznetzov AC and Russian carrier Navy barely had any reputation to begin with so it's not like it can go any lower can it?

Yeah... outsource the Navy too... lets give the Portugese a chance to be big again...

War effort is not affected in any way whatsoever. That is only thing that matters.Bruised ego of some dumbass admirals and MiG lobbyists is irrelevant and well deserved.

Bruised ego.... panties and bras on fire more like it.

Its harsh to say they "do not have quality control", as they do, it exists everywhere.

Not harsh.

Ignorant.

The Soviets just copy, they don't learn and design things for themselves... they just copy.

So it is being overblown by others and I admit I am also guilty.

Look back at your posts.... you repeated say stupid ignorant crap and then step back from it with your last comment in the post.

Are you flame-baiting?

Militarov wrote:
Russia is in low intensity conflict here, aganist enemy that has no Air Defence or very, very little of it, its not really comparable with full scale war they had in Iraq. And US is there for over a decade with hundreds of helicopters and aircraft deployed, Russians are yet to reach 1 year of deployment with never exceeding 40 borts.

it s not low intensity conflict. They had deployed almost 50 aircraft in Syria, as well as they were using Tu-22M3, Tu-160 and Tu-95. Still apart from incident with Turkey and this Mig-29K they didn't have any major losses in airplanes. [/quote]
Again, check more carefully dates of US losses in Iraq and you will understand.
Also, during NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, for 78 days NATO lost 3 aircraft including F-117 to poor Serbian air defense, which was consist mainly of Soviet SAM systems from 60's.
Another example with limited conflict is NATO intervention in Bosnia 1993-1995. Serbian troops in Bosnia didn't have advanced air defense systems, but still NATO lost:1 Mirage 2000(accident), one F-18(accident), another Mirage 2000N was shot down with Igla missile, 1 Sea Harrier shot down and one F-16c shot down.

Militarov wrote:
Is it smoky? It is, it burns high sulfur content Mazut-100 on below required burning temperature and smokes like hell, and ye it is an issue.

for me it is minor issue, it is important that it can sail and it can deliver airstrikes. Anyway it is going to be modernize after this deployment.

Militarov wrote:
Its behind Russians in what? Number of nuclear subs? And its outperfoming RuNAV in almost every aspect other than number of SSN-s at this moment.

Simply, it is behind in Russia in number and quality of nuclear submarines, missile technology and etc.


"its outperfoming RuNAV in almost every aspect ", Yeah right, that's why they bought 12 Kilos from Russia and 4 Sovremeny class as well as many radars, missiles and torpedoes.....plus unfinished Aircraft carrier, Su-35 as well as engines for local built aircraft and many many other things. Even most of their missiles are bad russian copies.
They don't outperform Russian navy in anything except quantity.

Thing is that Russia will build many Frigates and corvetes in the next ten years, but chinese would not be able to built same numbers of yasens and boreis like russians. Also, many Akulas, Sierras and Oscars would be deeply modernized to serve another 15-20 years.

Militarov wrote:
Over half of those you listed were not "built" by Russia, they were "finished" by Russia. Majority of the hulls were already finished in USSR times and then reached stage where it was cheaper to finish rather than scrap them.  

partially true, but still russia was in such a trouble during nineties, that most countries in such situation wouldn't have built anything. Even if they build half of these, it is still powerful number, especially when you look carefully what kind of ships and subs they have build.
other thing is that in the same time, they menaged to modernize all Delta IV submarines and rearm them with brand new missiles Sineva. In the same time, they developed new missile system Bulava and many other systems like Kalibr, Yakhont, Zircon and etc...

Militarov wrote:
Type 039A is equal if not better than Imp. Kilo, plus it has AIP, somewhat limiting, but AIP.

I wouldn't trust so much to Chinese quality. Maybe particular Type-039A is similar to improved Kilo class in performance, but still it is questionable and regarding Kilo reputation I would chose it for favorite.
All others chinese SSK are behind Kilos.

Militarov wrote:
You can have no matter what kind of subs, if you dont have surface fleet to match it they will get hunted down by ASW assets and be or destroyed or captured. If it was that easy Japan would just build 100 submarines and call it a day. Please stop writing bollocks.

Yeah right....you have no idea about submarines and their performances. Check history of military drills between submarines and US navy carrier battle groups and you gonna see how many times simple diesel submarines were able to sneak so close to the carrier and "sunk it" with torpedo.
Now imagine what would Oscar or Yasen do in that situation.

Nevertheless, russia navy is famous by its submarines bastions, and they have very powerful(probably the most powerful) anti submarine destroyerrs, Udaloy class, with its sonar,anti submarine torpedoes and anti submarine missiles. It is well proven anti submarine platform. Plus it carry 2 Ka-27 anti sub helicopters.
Also, there are arround 20 Grisha class Anti submarine corvettes in Russian navy + 7 Parchim class corvettes. I know that you gonna say that they are obsolete, just because they are inherited from Soviet Union, but regarding they speed, firepower and small size they are ideal for hunting enemy submarines and protecting own fleet submarine force.

But as far as I know Nuclear attack and cruise missile submarines are designed to sneak and attack surface battle groups before they are properly deployed. Many people does not understand that it is not easy to spot nuclear submarine which is 300m below water in the ocean. Mate it is ocean. To be able to detect submarines like you think, you will need hundreds of Anti submarine airplanes.

Shouldn't the last few posts be in another thread? Nothing to do with the K.

GarryB wrote:New unproven, largely untested aircraft sometimes fail when used for the first few times... look at the vertical tail problems with the F-111... they lost about 6 aircraft operationally before they worked out what the problem was.

"New unproven, largely untested aircraft sometimes fail when used for the first few times..." - MiG-29 is exactly 40 years old platform, that is the reason why the damn thing was picked to replace Su-33s coz its derivates were already in service and could be produced on same line in short period of time.[/quote]

Ned86 wrote: Pile of something about Russian Subs built by means of alien technology

Russia, submarine, powerful, mega, build, Russia, powerful, nuclear, Oscar, powerful, submarine...

Yugoslavia tracked subs in Adriatic sea with Koni-class frigate which had dipping sonar lol, please.. go away.

PapaDragon wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:[.

..........

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.

Hey, I am not trying to sweep anything anywhere. I am just saying that people are going into overdrive for nothing here:

-Until Kuznetzov gets reactors and catapults it is nothing more than testbed.

-MiG-29K is not some super advanced.plane, it is old budget model tweaked for Navy.

-MiG as a manufacturer should have been ditched long ago, they are no longer able to play in the big league. If this motivates Russian Military to finally take them off life support then this crash will be blessing in disguise.

-MiG, Kuznetzov AC and Russian carrier Navy barely had any reputation to begin with so it's not like it can go any lower can it?

War effort is not affected in any way whatsoever. That is only thing that matters.Bruised ego of some dumbass admirals and MiG lobbyists is irrelevant and well deserved.

What does the carrier have to do with this? the carrier was in no way at fault for this nor was it even a factor the plane failed here.

Yes exactly an old frame it's not like this is a carrier passed T-50 these kind of problems should not be happening.

I agree ditch them and let sukoi take over.

Actually it is, because tho other aircraft maybe be unsafe I have over 15 years combat experience. Ground forces, it's a problem when a brand new piece of equipment fails like this in combat duty because it may pose a hazard to others. The frame maybe unsafe now we don't know so yes it does poses a problem to combat duty.

I could list many reasons why but seems if I say one negative thing about the Russian navy people don't take well to it.

Notice the helicopters hoevering whole time around Kuz

GarryB wrote:

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

We don't even know what the problem is yet...

Is it going to suffocate its pilots like the F-22s are doing still, or will the flight control system fail and cause a crash on takeoff like one F-22 also did...

New planes have new problems.

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

Are you listening to what you are saying?

New unproven, largely untested aircraft sometimes fail when used for the first few times... look at the vertical tail problems with the F-111... they lost about 6 aircraft operationally before they worked out what the problem was.

Or scrap MiGs altogether and restart Su-33 line. Make them also easier to store in order to increase numbers onboard the ship. At this point, I would just let MiG collapse under its own incompetence. Let Yakovlev or someone else take over. We may see more interesting projects and better quality.

Wow... the chicken little syndrome is strong on this thread... so we should also put Boeing under new management... I remember seeing an F-22 crash on takeoff due to horizontal tail flutter problems... not to mention the suffocation of pilots... hell... scrap the F-22, sink Boeing and just buy Chinese fighters because they never make mistakes....

Doubt Mikoyan will fix this issue since it has happened so many times before.

What has happened so many times before exactly?

Oh they will recover the black boxes sure and they may destroy the wreck but they will not recover the frame. Which is what I was saying,

So many people with such expert knowledge... so MiG makes bad aircraft... I guess that is why no one in the west has ever heard of them..., they wont recover the airframe... any other nuggets of knowledge you want to share?

What is Putin having for breakfast tomorrow?

Sorry but China is second place in the navy world.

Really?

China is a superpower.... near China... in one Ocean.

Also what does Kaliber have to do with this? We aren't talking about that missile. You can't bring up some other piece of equipment and say "Well this works awesome so lets ignore this failure" what kind of logic is that.

Kalibr is not used by any other branch of the Russian military... it is the primary Navy strike weapon against ground targets. They are clearly interested in testing the strike capabilities of the MiG-29K, but for the moment the Kalibr is the primary land strike weapon.

Yeah, personally I think Mikoyans rep is pretty much non repairable at this point. I think renaming company and putting it under different management may be best option. Or let Sukhoi Irkutsk aviation industry take over or something.

Or we could be rational and find out what actually happened and then work out what might solve the problem.

An old super Hornet yes, this isn't a brand spanking new aircraft. Last time they built a new Super Hornet was like six years ago.

So proven aircraft still crash but brand new aircraft are not allowed to?

This isn't the same situation so please don't try and disguise it like such or would you rather I ask my navy friends and get their opinions they will have nothing but negative things to say.

Yeah... I am sure the opinion of Nazis regarding Jews would be valuable here too. NOT.

Mikoyan was always questionable quality vs high quality sukhoi and I know that.

You keep repeating that... do you have any facts to actually back that up or are we talking opinion.

I realise seeing a MiG-29 at an airshow crash about a million times can effect ones opinion of things but it does not reflect the actual reality on the ground.

-MiG as a manufacturer should have been ditched long ago, they are no longer able to play in the big league. If this motivates Russian Military to finally take them off life support then this crash will be blessing in disguise.

Yeah... using that logic in 2008 there were lots of deficiencies in the Russian military after years of no money and neglect... perhaps they should have just fired them all and outsourced the defence of Russia to say China, or South Korea...

That of course will damage Klimov as MiG tends to use Klimov engines... but who cares about a company that makes engines or a company that makes aircraft radars after all one plane crashed lets fire the whole company... which of course will have a critical effect on all the companies that company subcontracts with... cause Sukhois never crash...

-MiG, Kuznetzov AC and Russian carrier Navy barely had any reputation to begin with so it's not like it can go any lower can it?

Yeah... outsource the Navy too... lets give the Portugese a chance to be big again...

War effort is not affected in any way whatsoever. That is only thing that matters.Bruised ego of some dumbass admirals and MiG lobbyists is irrelevant and well deserved.

Bruised ego.... panties and bras on fire more like it.

Its harsh to say they "do not have quality control", as they do, it exists everywhere.

Not harsh.

Ignorant.

The Soviets just copy, they don't learn and design things for themselves... they just copy.

So it is being overblown by others and I admit I am also guilty.

Look back at your posts.... you repeated say stupid ignorant crap and then step back from it with your last comment in the post.

Are you flame-baiting?

1. This is not a new plane this is a variant of a frame with decades plus years experience.

2. Like it or not China's navy is stronger then russia's this is what all the worlds naval experts agree one. Quality does not win a war, ask the germans how that went Russia may have better boats but they have far to few and would easily get overran.

China is also very adapt at re-purposing stolen tech, they have shown that.

3. Dude what does the Nazi's and jews have to do with this.....Honestly that not even cool you went there. I don't know why you did frankly but that's crossing a line.

4. I have taken part in recovery operations, first off chances are the aircraft split apart after hitting the water it's not all going to be in one piece. they will not recover the wreck all the data they need are in it's black boxes. Wasting money to recover the wreck is pointless blow it up and that's it.

5. You have a problem with some being critical of your nations navy?. sorry but that doesn't give you the right to attack someone because they don't agree with it. I am critical about my own nations military, you don't see me attacking people who say Abrams suck do you?. Sorry but The Russian Navy isn't what you crack it up to be. Patriotism is fine but don't let it blind you ether.

6. You are missing the point it was an old Hornet not a brand spanking new one, now even the F-35 which I view as the single biggest flying piece of poo ever has done this. This was an aircraft from a known shitty supplier which didn't even have a couple dozen hours on it and went down. If you cannot understand this not my problem.

7. That's nice for Kaliber, I like the Kaliber but the Kaliber has nothing to do with this MIG.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:What does the carrier have to do with this? the carrier was in no way at fault for this nor was it even a factor the plane failed here.

Yes exactly an old frame it's not like this is a carrier passed T-50 these kind of problems should not be happening.

I agree ditch them and let sukoi take over.

Actually it is, because tho other aircraft maybe be unsafe I have over 15 years combat experience. Ground forces, it's a problem when a brand new piece of equipment fails like this in combat duty because it may pose a hazard to others. The frame maybe unsafe now we don't know so yes it does poses a problem to combat duty.

I could list many reasons why but seems if I say one negative thing about the Russian navy people don't take well to it.

We still do not know the exact reason for a crash, we just know it was "malfunction". Now if it is really as they say at the takeoff.. i could see engine stall as possibility (due to sea water mist? idk, guessing now here randomly) or FBW but again it should have 4 + analog backups...

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
1. This is not a new plane this is a variant of a frame with 40 plus years exprience.

2. Like it or not China's navy is stronger then russia's this is what all the worlds naval experts agree one. Quality does not win a war, ask the germans how that went Russia may have better boats but they have far to few and would easily get overran.

China is also very adapt at re-purposing stolen tech, they have shown that.

3. Dude what does the Nazi's and jews have to do with this.....Honestly that not even cool you went there. I don't know why you did frankly but that's crossing a line.

4. I have taken part in recovery operations, first off chances are the aircraft split apart after hitting the water it's not all going to be in one piece. they will not recover the wreck all the data they need are in it's black boxes. Wasting money to recover the wreck is pointless blow it up and that's it.

5. You have a problem with some being critical of your nations navy?. sorry but that doesn't give you the right to attack someone because they don't agree with it. I am critical about my own nations military, you don't see me attacking people who say Abrams suck do you?. Sorry but The Russian Navy isn't what you crack it up to be. Patriotism is fine but don't let it blind you ether.

6. You are missing the point it was an old Hornet not a brand spanking new one, now even the F-35 which I view as the single biggest flying piece of poo ever has done this. This was an aircraft from a known shitty supplier which didn't even have 40 hours on it and went down. If you cannot understand this not my problem.

7. That's nice for Kaliber, I like the Kaliber but the Kaliber has nothing to do with this MIG.

Could you please at least change abit the numbers... i also said 40 years and 40 flying hours, people will start thinking its the same person lol