Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

Militarov wrote:

Honesroc wrote:Seeing this in multiple news outlets:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/11/14/russian-fighter-jet-crashes-near-its-aircraft-carrier-in-mediterranean-us-officials-say.html

Status of the pilot is unknown, though he's presumably alive.

Its confirmed by Russian MoD too

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3782983

The hell!?

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

MiG crashed. Pilot brought to ship unharmed and ready for flying again. Guess they will have to fly in another MiG-29KR from Russia. Technical failure. Common apparently especially with the US and China in terms of carrier jets. Sucks.

A1RMAN wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

This isn't an old SU-33, This does more harm then good.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

This isn't an old SU-33, This does more harm then good.

Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

It clearly went into the sea, they will not be able to recover the aircraft.

Damn, a brand new bird. Good that the pilot is OK. As presumably the protocol is with these things, they'll probably suspend MiG-29K flying for a while to investigate - though with the bird in the ocean there's no wreckage to analyze.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

It clearly went into the sea, they will not be able to recover the aircraft.

Don't bank on that, I doubt they want anyone else recovering it. Or they could destroy it on the seabed. Expect the Yantar to return perhaps?

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

Well it sank, aircraft do not tend to float around after crashing into the sea

When I heard that they intent to operate sorties from Kusnetzov I said to myself "they gonna lose one or two fighters". It's normal.

JohninMK wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

It clearly went into the sea, they will not be able to recover the aircraft.

Don't bank on that, I doubt they want anyone else recovering it. Or they could destroy it on the seabed. Expect the Yantar to return perhaps?

I was about to say that. Yantar is definitely returning, they will probably want to fish out those black boxes as well while they are at it.

I would not call this PR disaster. They called every crash in Syria PR disaster. It's not good but hardly unexpected. There is reason other than money why aircraft carriers are not widespread.

Since it happened on takeoff it's most likely because pilot did not slam throttle hard enough or head-on wind was poor. One more reason to put reactor and catapults on this ship.  

Most important thing is that pilot is fine. Dry him off, put some coffee in him, fly in new 29K from Russia and get back to work.



And let's not go all drama over this, just look at this list and you'll get the bigger picture (it's for this year alone):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_%282010%E2%80%93present%29#2016

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2254202.html

Militarov wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

This isn't an old SU-33, This does more harm then good.

Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

And you told me not to be hysterical.

This stuff happens. Unfortunately happened to a brand new bird and MiG-29K's already had spotty quality. But even brand new F-16'S crash and kill pilots.

Oh well. This was a case of bad luck and hopefully they will find out the issue. But something tells me Mikoyan will not as there already been quite a few failures from these MiG-29K's so I think it has more to do with the manufacturer.

Time to start building new jets and get new management. Or let Mikoyan fall and let someone else take over.

I would more expect old Su-33 wil crash, than new build MiG-29K. Accidents happened. New Chinese J-15 also crash during trainings and this just show, that landings on a carrier is a dangerous job, specially for low experienced pilots. I think experiences from Syrian teatre will show RuNAVY, that they should modernize their Su-33 to Su-27SM3 level and that they should buy additional batch of MiG-29K/KUB fighters.

PapaDragon wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:Where is the Mig now ? Did they saved it or let it in the sea ?

It clearly went into the sea, they will not be able to recover the aircraft.

Don't bank on that, I doubt they want anyone else recovering it. Or they could destroy it on the seabed. Expect the Yantar to return perhaps?

I was about to say that. Yantar is definitely returning, they will probably want to fish out those black boxes as well while they are at it.

I would not call this PR disaster. They called every crash in Syria PR disaster. It's not good but hardly unexpected. There is reason other than money why aircraft carriers are not widespread.

Since it happened on takeoff it's most likely because pilot did not slam throttle hard enough or head-on wind was poor. One more reason to put reactor and catapults on this ship.  

Most important thing is that pilot is fine. Dry him off, put some coffee in him, fly in new 29K from Russia and get back to work.



And let's not go all drama over this, just look at this list and you'll get the bigger picture (it's for this year alone):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_%282010%E2%80%93present%29#2016

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

Or scrap MiGs altogether and restart Su-33 line. Make them also easier to store in order to increase numbers onboard the ship. At this point, I would just let MiG collapse under its own incompetence. Let Yakovlev or someone else take over. We may see more interesting projects and better quality.

But then again, this is just one jet and who knows exactly what happened. So I'm just jumping to conclusions.

miketheterrible wrote:

Militarov wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

This isn't an old SU-33, This does more harm then good.

Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

And you told me not to be hysterical.

This stuff happens. Unfortunately happened to a brand new bird and MiG-29K's already had spotty quality. But even brand new F-16'S crash and kill pilots.

Oh well. This was a case of bad luck and hopefully they will find out the issue. But something tells me Mikoyan will not as there already been quite a few failures from these MiG-29K's so I think it has more to do with the manufacturer.

Time to start building new jets and get new management. Or let Mikoyan fall and let someone else take over.

You are not supposed to be hysterical like you all started "oh i knew this would happen", "MiG is building crap aircraft". I am not hysterical i am giving the peek into what this will have as a cause due to this crash.

I am aware of only one "brand new" F-16 crash since its introduction, but it was not under this situation, it happened during flight tests performed by test pilot and it was decades after it was introduced. It was already sold in thousands.

Actually if it was engine failure, it has nothing to do with MiG most likely but rather Klimov.

Militarov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Militarov wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

The hell!?

Unfortunate, but not tragic. And not unexpected by any means.

New tasks, newish planes, inexperienced pilots. Fortunately, no casualties.

The situation actually does have a bright side: experience. The black box will be recovered and they will find out what went wrong either it was technical or pilot error. Rescue crew gained experience in real combat situation.

This is not a bright side this is a problem, why this would happen to such a new aircraft which should have had any kinks removed by the time they sent it on operational duty.

This isn't an old SU-33, This does more harm then good.

Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

And you told me not to be hysterical.

This stuff happens. Unfortunately happened to a brand new bird and MiG-29K's already had spotty quality. But even brand new F-16'S crash and kill pilots.

Oh well. This was a case of bad luck and hopefully they will find out the issue. But something tells me Mikoyan will not as there already been quite a few failures from these MiG-29K's so I think it has more to do with the manufacturer.

Time to start building new jets and get new management. Or let Mikoyan fall and let someone else take over.

You are not supposed to be hysterical like you all started "oh i knew this would happen", "MiG is building crap aircraft". I am not hysterical i am giving the peek into what this will have as a cause due to this crash.

I am aware of only one "brand new" F-16 crash since its introduction, but it was not under this situation, it happened during flight tests performed by test pilot and it was decades after it was introduced. It was already sold in thousands.

Actually if it was engine failure, it has nothing to do with MiG most likely but rather Klimov.

No, you went somewhat hysterical. Nothing wrong in that. F-22's with low flight hours also have crashed. But it does come off as worrisome that this happened to a MiG-29K. But as said multiple of times, it has been spotty performance from Mikoyan. Their facility looks quite modern and a lot of young workforce, but that didn't fix the issues.

We need to wait for end results of what happened. Get a better picture.

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

If your pilots cant deal with landing and takeoff... what are you doing with it in combat in a first place? Landings and takeoffs can be trained anywhere, it does not have to be combat. Whole Kuz deployment is a PR stunt, which is not going well up to this moment. I understand what they are trying to do, and what they are trying to state, but it was a mistake to deploy pilots that had less than a year to practice deck operations, their place is not in Syria, at least not yet.

Kuz is already laughing stock in general, that is the problem and this just adds stuff on the pile. Su-24 shot down was far more important on political scale than this true, but it was shot down by enemy fighter which Su-24 pilot couldnt really help much in a bomber, and it was 30 years old bort that noone cares about much.

Thing is they cant really learn anything particular from this crash, they lost an aircraft, made Navy, particulary Kuz look bad (like it wasnt laughed at enough anyways), MiG is getting even worse reputation (like it wasnt bad enough already)...

If you ask me they did not need all of this at all.

miketheterrible wrote:Or scrap MiGs altogether and restart Su-33 line. Make them also easier to store in order to increase numbers onboard the ship. At this point, I would just let MiG collapse under its own incompetence. Let Yakovlev or someone else take over. We may see more interesting projects and better quality.

But then again, this is just one jet and who knows exactly what happened. So I'm just jumping to conclusions.

RuNavy already said that restarting Su-33 production line would be too expencive as many landing gear and wing components are out of production for ages, and they would need to produce less than 20 in total as Kuz cant carry that many of them compared to MiG-29K.

Militarov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Or scrap MiGs altogether and restart Su-33 line. Make them also easier to store in order to increase numbers onboard the ship. At this point, I would just let MiG collapse under its own incompetence. Let Yakovlev or someone else take over. We may see more interesting projects and better quality.

But then again, this is just one jet and who knows exactly what happened. So I'm just jumping to conclusions.

RuNavy already said that restarting Su-33 production line would be too expencive as many landing gear and wing components are out of production for ages, and they would need to produce less than 20 in total as Kuz cant carry that many of them compared to MiG-29K.

Makes sense. Puts them in a rough position. Doubt Mikoyan will fix this issue since it has happened so many times before.

Militarov wrote:
Even worse is that it happened literally on a first day of deployment. This is PR disaster. This was supposed to be great promotion for Russian Navy...lets face it this was organised in order for Russian Navy to gain some "respect". And it totally... did not go by the plan.

Yes, this is bad, its very, very bad actually as this aircraft went off the production line just few months ago and has less than 40 flying hours on.

First it was NOT on first day of deployment. MIG-29K was on training missions for a while in Mediterranean....
Second, "Russan Navy to gain some respect"? Respect from Whom? from all forum members or?  
Like it or not, Russian navy is still second in in the world regarding strength and they gain respect in Syria already. They Demonstrated Kalibr Missile which performances are far better then Tomahawk. They managed to install these powerful missiles on small stealth missile boats, as well as relatively small diesel submarines. Previously, this kind of missile could have been seen only on nuclear submarines, cruisers and destroyers.
They deployed the most powerful naval force in Mediterranean, there are 3-4 submarines as well...some reports suggest that Voronezh submarine of project 949A OSCAR class is there as well, together with 2 Akula class. They yet has to shown the world and people like you what they are capable to do. If Voronezh or Peter the Great attack with Granit Missiles ground targets in Syria this will shown the world real strength of Russian navy. Nobody else has such a powerful and fast missile like Granit. Plus, with range of 650km it is almost like early versions of Tomahawk, just flying 2.5 mach....

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:........................

Accidents are to be expected, however...it is not expected from few months old aircraft with less than 40 flight hours to crash into sea...on carriers first EVER deployment, that is not normal.

It is a Navy with barely any experience in AC ops, with new untested planes, rookie pilots and carrier's first ever deployment as you said. It should definitely be expected.

Militarov wrote:
MiG is anways in sorry state at this moment, crash of their brand new aircraft that just finished introduction flights crashing for sure was not part of their marketing plan. And i am not sure even Russian MoD will be particulary happy about all this either.

Other crashes in Syria were not even remotely, at least PR wise, bad as this one.

MiG has been in sorry state for quite a while, no news there. Navy would be retarded if they were happy about this of course, but it could be worse.

And PR wise this is hardly a blip on the radar. Once they start dropping bombs this whole thing will be forgotten. Only reason people even remember Su-24 ambush is because pilot was killed and year long geopolitical and diplomatic clusterf*ck that ensued.

I don't agree here, I have spent much time with the Navy. I have spent much time around AC's.

This isn't a normal thing, there is a thing called Quality check you don't put the dam aircraft on the deck unless you are dam sure all potential have been addressed. The aircraft suffered a technical failure, this is a brand new aircraft. MIG is known for not making reliable aircraft this is a problem they never fixed.

Since the idea was the soviets replaced them every ten years so they didn't have to worry about quality control much.

Still AC experience has nothing to do with this situation. The plane broke down, I don't see why people are trying to defend this with "It's the Ships first real deployment, it's a rookie pilot" THat had nothing to do with this situation.

I have never seen my nations navy out aircraft on a deck they had doubts on, shit never even the F-35 had this kind of mess up yet.

There is clearly a problem with the MIG-29K if one suffered a failure so dam soon. Maybe it was just a freak accident? we don't know.

Still there isn't a sweep under the rug problem, Nations will look at this among other things. Sorry but anyone with real operational military experience will tell you this is a serious problem.

They will have to now look at all the other MIG's ground the entire fleet because it maybe an unsafe aircraft among other things. This only wrecked MIG reputation what little it had left.