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    Talking bollocks thread

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:33 pm

    Werewolf wrote:That is not correct.

    http://ivchenko-progress.com/?portfolio=%D0%B4-136-2&lang=en

    So your explanation is an advertisement? Do you  realize that Ukraine advertises the  Progress D-27 as a prop fan engine but in reality it isn't? Please find something more fruitful to do with you time today. Happy Easter.


    flamming_python wrote:

    Just two of the examples that spring to mind - but magnumcromagnon pointed out the many others here too - SOC, Austin, Viktor, TR1.. well Werewolf too actually - although he is unfortunately a crackpot too so I have him on ignore.

    So apart from the 5 names you mentioned RMF now has 7 to 8 posters who can make intelligent comments. And I am counting you in. Anyone else out of the 1000 + registered posters? I honestly doubt it. Not that they have to posts regularly.

    flamming_python wrote:On mp.net on the other hand, a magnitude larger than russiadefense.net - yet you only have half the people there as compared to here, who know what they're talking about; artjomh, Lokos and a couple others. Well you also have the ex-military officers and proffessionals there who certainly know their stuff too but in a quite narrow and specific field. Some others know some things but not all that much - and all the rest are trolls and fanboys, or are just there for the political discussions.

    mp.net was taken over by defense primes from NATO a long time ago. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse on mp.net , voila, someone proves me wrong.

    Sorry flamming but 7 - 8 good posters is not enough unless you want to be compared with mp and f16 .net.


    Last edited by RTN on Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:34 pm

    So your explanation is an advertisement? Do you realize that Ukraine advertises the Progress D-27 as a prop fan engine but in reality it isn't? Please find something more fruitful to do with you time today. Happy Easter.

    Have you anything else but your claim that i have disproven with that link?
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:41 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Have you anything else but your claim that i have disproven with that link?

    How can I prove something when it doesn't take place?

    I haven't traveled the length and breadth of Russia, just confined myself to some major urban centers, I will grant you that. But a cursory look at Russia's geography and the latitudes in question will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the kind of hot humid places that exists in Asia and Africa does not exist in Russia.
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    Post  Werewolf Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:19 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Have you anything else but your claim that i have disproven with that link?

    How can I prove something when it doesn't take place?

    I haven't traveled the length and breadth of Russia, just confined myself to some major urban centers, I will grant you that. But a cursory look at Russia's geography and the latitudes in question will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the kind of hot humid places that exists in Asia and Africa does not exist in Russia.

    The Mi-26 was designed for SOVIET UNION, there were planty of hot and high places. Kazakhstan reaches in summer till 55° C and in winter -40° C, experienced it myself have family there. Klimov operates quite a range of engines for Hot and High, VK-2500-2/3, PS, TV3-117VMA engines, TV7-117V and D-136-2.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:27 am

    RTN wrote:So apart from the 5 names you mentioned RMF now has 7 to 8 posters who can make intelligent comments. And I am counting you in. Anyone else out of the 1000 + registered posters? I honestly doubt it. Not that they have to posts regularly.

    I wasn't talking about people who can make intelligent comments - we have a couple dozen good regular or semi-regular posters here - but specifically people who know their military hardware or military tactics pretty darn well. And you can probably count me out on that count, I'm a jack of all trades in terms of this type of knowledge; but master of none.

    RTN wrote:mp.net was taken over by defense primes from NATO a long time ago. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse on mp.net , voila, someone proves me wrong.

    Sorry flamming but 7 - 8 good posters is not enough unless you want to be compared with mp and f16 .net.

    Hey, I totally agree, russiadefense.net has a long, long way to go. Dunno who your arguement is with here precisely, but not with me certainly.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:25 am

    This discussion is getting ridiculous.  Not only have you guys not provided anything (RTN, I am looking at you) but you guys are talking about something that is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.  Add to that, have to sit here and try to defend a website to some guy who makes a claim without anything to back it up by, about which members you think are the decent contributors, in a topic none the less none related?

    Yeah, maybe this site is going to hell.  Cause you guys are not helping it at all with this pointless drivel. If you don't like the site, go away then? I voluntarily left mp.net due to that retardation. This site will be no different if it ends up the same. GarryB, could you please purge this thread of the pointless drivel, including my post?
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    Post  TR1 Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:15 am

    RTN wrote:

    Does Russia tests the AL 41, D-136, D-30 etc in hot and humid conditions for days at end? It doesn't.  

    Dagestan and Central Asia.

    Case closed.

    Also, A-stan was about as good of a testing ground as you can get.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:16 am

    TR1 wrote:
    RTN wrote:

    Does Russia tests the AL 41, D-136, D-30 etc in hot and humid conditions for days at end? It doesn't.  

    Dagestan and Central Asia.

    Case closed.

    Also, A-stan was about as good of a testing ground as you can get.

    So Dagestan is very hot/humid? What about Kazakhstan?
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    Post  TR1 Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:31 am

    Nuff said:

    Talking bollocks thread - Page 18 0_75b60_b03bf67_XXL
    Talking bollocks thread - Page 18 0_75b69_2b68f66b_XXL
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    Post  jhelb Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:17 am

    flamming_python wrote:Just two of the examples that spring to mind - but magnumcromagnon pointed out the many others here too - SOC, Austin, Viktor, TR1.. well Werewolf too actually - although he is unfortunately a crackpot too so I have him on ignore.

    Flamming Python/All,

    If it is not much of a trouble can you plz name some posters who write really good posts in this forum? I have identified the "usual suspects" GarryB, Mindstorm, SOC, Morpheus Eberhardt but I see that there are more than 1200 members in RMF so as you would imagine it is not possible to pull out all their posts and read them since I am new to this forum and have not kept track of all the posts.

    If you think we should take this conversation offline, feel free to PM me.

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    Post  Werewolf Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:59 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Just two of the examples that spring to mind - but magnumcromagnon pointed out the many others here too - SOC, Austin, Viktor, TR1.. well Werewolf too actually - although he is unfortunately a crackpot too so I have him on ignore.

    Flamming Python/All,

    If it is not much of a trouble can you plz name some posters who write really good posts in this forum? I have identified the "usual suspects" GarryB, Mindstorm, SOC, Morpheus Eberhardt but I see that there are more than 1200 members in RMF so as you would imagine it is not possible to pull out all their posts and read them since I am new to this forum and have not kept track of all the posts.

    If you think we should take this conversation offline, feel free to PM me.


    This forum is actually very small. There are maybe over 1000 registered, but like on any forum the majority are lurker that only read and quite a few registered users just registered themselfs to ask quick questions.

    There are around 40 users that are almost daily here and only about 15 off them are actually contributing to the forum and only two among those are like senseis.

    GarryB, Mindstorm, sepheronx, magnumcromagnon, SOC (even tho hasn't posted much lately), Viktor, Austin, George1, Cyberspec, Stealthflanker, Morpheus Eberhardt, and occasionally TR1 and Flamming Python, but tend to complain more than actually do.

    The majority of registered users are lurker and haven't posted a single comment and are registered months or longer.
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    Post  jhelb Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:57 pm

    Werewolf wrote:GarryB, Mindstorm, sepheronx,  magnumcromagnon, SOC (even tho hasn't posted much lately),  Viktor, Austin, George1, Cyberspec, Stealthflanker, Morpheus Eberhardt, and occasionally TR1 and Flamming Python, but tend to complain more than actually do.

    Great, thank you.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:02 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:GarryB, Mindstorm, sepheronx,  magnumcromagnon, SOC (even tho hasn't posted much lately),  Viktor, Austin, George1, Cyberspec, Stealthflanker, Morpheus Eberhardt, and occasionally TR1 and Flamming Python, but tend to complain more than actually do.

    Great, thank you.


    I probably forgot a few, but TheArmenian also has some good posts.
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    Post  NickM Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:01 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:GarryB, Mindstorm, sepheronx,  magnumcromagnon, SOC (even tho hasn't posted much lately),  Viktor, Austin, George1, Cyberspec, Stealthflanker, Morpheus Eberhardt, and occasionally TR1 and Flamming Python, but tend to complain more than actually do.

    Great, thank you.

    With a few exceptions,I too will stick with this above list. However you should note that there are some great posters in RMF from UK and US. I see SOC has been mentioned there is another new guy who just joined from Canada. There are a few more.

    Just avoid arguing with a few posters from India and Africa. They have an un canny tendency to draw gullible members of this forum into useless discussions so as to validate their plagiarized, cooked up posts.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:35 pm

    NickM wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:GarryB, Mindstorm, sepheronx,  magnumcromagnon, SOC (even tho hasn't posted much lately),  Viktor, Austin, George1, Cyberspec, Stealthflanker, Morpheus Eberhardt, and occasionally TR1 and Flamming Python, but tend to complain more than actually do.

    Great, thank you.

    With a few exceptions,I too will stick with this above list. However you should note that there are some great posters in RMF from UK and US. I see SOC has been mentioned there is another new guy who just joined from Canada. There are a few more.  

    Just avoid arguing with a few posters from India and Africa. They have an un canny tendency to draw gullible members of this forum into useless discussions so as to validate their plagiarized, cooked up posts.

    I think we all know who your few exceptions would be from that list... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  RTN Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:44 am

    TR1 wrote:Dagestan and Central Asia.

    Dagestan & Central Asia..???? Hot and humid ...like Africa and India....????

    TR1 wrote:Case closed.

    Makes sense
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:48 am

    RTN wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Dagestan and Central Asia.  

    Dagestan & Central Asia..???? Hot and humid ...like Africa and India....????

    TR1 wrote:Case closed.

    Makes sense

    You ever were in such locations?

    The temperature range in Kazakhstan already exceeds India, except in moisture.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:47 am

    All the posts removed are in the Talking bollocks thread in the general chat.

    Here: https://www.russiadefence.net/t3434-talking-bollocks (at the end).

    I rather suspect all the suspicion about Soviet and Russian helicopters not performing well in hot and high conditions is the terrible record of western helicopters in such conditions... it was one of the reasons they had to triple the maintainence budget on the Apache in Desert Storm, and another reason why they wanted Hips instead of Blackhawks for Afghanistan... they really didn't cope with the conditions at all. Twisted Evil

    I am sure after a few years of operating Apaches the Indian military will make their politicians see sense... don't get me wrong... the Apache is an excellent helicopter... but she really is a hangar queen.
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    Post  RTN Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:51 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    You ever were in such locations?

    The temperature range in Kazakhstan already exceeds India, except in moisture.

    No, till date I did not have to travel to either Kazakhstan or India. However a cursory look at Kazakhstan's latitude 48.0000° N, 68.0000° E will make it clear that the heat & humidity in this country can never exceed what countries close to the tropics will experience.

    http://visitkazakhstan.kz/en/about/142/

    Not sure how your relatives experienced 50°C. Check if they are in the right country.

    GarryB wrote: it was one of the reasons they had to triple the maintainence budget on the Apache in Desert Storm, and another reason why they wanted Hips instead of Blackhawks for Afghanistan... they really didn't cope with the conditions at all

    You are mixing things up. Budget was increased to increase the procurement of Apaches. It had nothing to do with maintenance. Can you plz prove that the Apaches have huge maintenance costs?

    And how can you compare Mi-8 with Blackhawk. Both are completely different types of helos. Afghans generally prefer Soviet/Russian stuff (over American) because they have been using them since the days of the Afghan invasion by the USSR.





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    Post  RTN Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:53 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    You ever were in such locations?

    The temperature range in Kazakhstan already exceeds India, except in moisture.

    No, till date I did not have to travel to either Kazakhstan or India. However a cursory look at Kazakhstan's latitude 48.0000° N, 68.0000° E will make it clear that the heat & humidity in this country can never exceed what countries close to  the tropics will experience.

    http://visitkazakhstan.kz/en/about/142/

    Not sure how your relatives experienced 50°C. Check if they are in the right country.

    GarryB wrote: it was one of the reasons they had to triple the maintainence budget on the Apache in Desert Storm, and another reason why they wanted Hips instead of Blackhawks for Afghanistan... they really didn't cope with the conditions at all

    You are mixing things up. Budget was increased to  increase the procurement of Apaches. It had nothing to do with maintenance. Can you plz prove that the Apaches have huge maintenance costs?

    And how can you compare  Mi-8 with Blackhawk. Both are completely different types of helos. Afghans generally prefer Soviet/Russian stuff (over American) because they have been using them since the days of the Afghan invasion by the USSR. SO they don't want to get out of their comfort zone.





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    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:04 pm

    No, till date I did not have to travel to either Kazakhstan or India. However a cursory look at Kazakhstan's latitude 48.0000° N, 68.0000° E will make it clear that the heat & humidity in this country can never exceed what countries close to the tropics will experience.

    http://visitkazakhstan.kz/en/about/142/

    Not sure how your relatives experienced 50°C. Check if they are in the right country.

    I know the temperature range from experience, i lived for 5 years in Kazakhstan in hot summers the temperature exceeded 40-50° C in very hot summers it was for a few days over 50°C and in winter it ranged from -20- 40° C. I do remember the minus temperatures very well since we used to jump from the roofs into 2m piled up snow. While more tropical countries like India sustain their temperature with much less variation of temperature, lot of regions in SU/Russia have a very high range of temperature from winter and summer from up to 80° and in some locations even -60° C and in summer above 30-40° C.

    Russia had lot of locations with very hot weather and plenty of service life to test and improve engines, entire 10 years of experience of combat environment under hot and high weater in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Caucasus is enough locations to test and they were developed long before you had any interest in military. TV3-117VMA and VK-2500-2/3/PS are all optimized for hot and high conditions.

    You are mixing things up. Budget was increased to increase the procurement of Apaches. It had nothing to do with maintenance. Can you plz prove that the Apaches have huge maintenance costs?

    And how can you compare Mi-8 with Blackhawk. Both are completely different types of helos. Afghans generally prefer Soviet/Russian stuff (over American) because they have been using them since the days of the Afghan invasion by the USSR.

    The budget raised for maintenance of all vehicles in Afghanistan and Iraq. A british Pilot Ed Macy in his book, Pilot: Apache Inside the Cockpit of the World's Most Deadly Fighting Machine, wrote about maintenance.

    Double translated from english-to russian and back, due the lack of money for that book.

    Every English "Apache" cost taxpayers 46 million pounds. (That is, about five Mi-28. Well done, what do you say).
    To pilot Apache exceptionally hard. Main do, because wild information load. (This was noted and the Swedes, comparing it with the Mi-28).
    And, of course, that was already mentioned - on the part of the monocle. However, when you will master it, I feel that is no longer fastened to the "Apache" - "Apache" strapped to you.
    Service "Apache" is a difficult task. Eight "Apache" require 18 four tons of trucks, 7 trailers, 5 tankers, 3 forklift truck, 2 motorcycles, 5 vans, eight tons ' truck and a fire truck.
    Every hour of flight "Apache" costs about 20,000 pounds and requires 32 man-hours of ground work. Each pilot has six highly qualified ground specialists.

    The usual maintenance and spare parts usually do not exceed even half the stuff and supply chain he described. The Usual maintenance of any helicopter under normal, less hot and

    less dusty environment will result in less tha 30 hours of maintenance. For instance the maintenance hours for Mi-28N are 29 hours, not much less than Apaches, the maintenance

    hours of Mi-24 is less then 17 -man-hours and the major maintenance for Mi-24 was only after 120 hours of service with after each flight of short maintenance checks. In Afghanistan

    like for Hinds, Apaches have massive load of spare parts on hand, because to ship back spare parts and wait untill new arrive would not only cost more but also tactically very unwise

    and result in deaths of soldiers. The harsh environment in Afghanistan, especially the sand brings the most troubles, more frequently electronics burn through because of the fine dust

    that is sucked in through the avionic bays, electronic supply and battery bays and communication bays. Those vents are protected by dust filters but they only work for objects bigger

    than fine dust. The IR suppressors are also a reason of additional maintenance and costs. The IR suppressors that are for exhaust gas cooling are preventing the exhaust gasses to

    pass quickly through and the engines turn "red" meaning they tend to overheat in already hot climates which results in lower lifespan and reduction in endurance. This particular

    maintenance and spare parts exhaustion is not exclusive to Apaches, but they are indeed hangar queens in comperision with Hinds, due overloaded electronics.


    And how can you compare Mi-8 with Blackhawk. Both are completely different types of helos. Afghans generally prefer Soviet/Russian stuff (over American) because they have been using them since the days of the Afghan invasion by the USSR.

    The Mi-8 and UH-60 are exact counterparts of each other. Medium sized/weight cargo helicopters used for various missions with various modifications. They both serve the same purpose in the same class of helicopters and weight class. The Mi-8 is the prefered medium cargo helicopter across the entire planet. It is the safest helicopter of its class with the lowest fatal accidents per 100.000 flight hours, with very good upgrade capability, low maintanence and maintenance cost, easy to learn and easy to keep flight worthy. The engines are TV3-117VMA which are optimized for hot and high.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:24 pm

    Mi-24 is less then 17 -man-hours and the major maintenance for Mi-24 was only after 120 hours of service with after each flight of short maintenance checks.

    Have to correct that part.

    The hours between major maintenance for Mi-24 is 73 h, according to an ex-Mi-24 pilot on paralay.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:46 pm

    You are mixing things up. Budget was increased to increase the procurement of Apaches. It had nothing to do with maintenance. Can you plz prove that the Apaches have huge maintenance costs?

    Look on the Keypubishing website we discussed it there years ago.

    To make the Apache look good they decided to triple the maintainece spend on the aircraft while it was used in Desert Storm. Operational and flight time rates were considered acceptable, but could only be maintained with the triple budget of spares and manhours of maintainece.

    And how can you compare Mi-8 with Blackhawk. Both are completely different types of helos.

    Yeah... completely different... both medium sized troop transport helicopters... Rolling Eyes

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    Post  sheytanelkebir Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:51 pm

    Iraq is pretty hot (52C+ is regular in summer) and humid (but only in the south), and "dusty" (massive  apocalyptic looking sandstorms are regular).

    We had several helicopter competitions over the past few years.

    Mi171 beat the UH-60 Blackhawk
    Mi28Ne beat the Ah-64E

    and that stuff is now actually flying and operational in Iraq, unlike the "theoretical" India scenario.

    Russia and Ukraine built a complete overhaul facility for VK-2500 engines and Mil airframes in Taji, Baghdad.

    the "lifecycle cost" of the Mils are about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the equivalent american types. Mostly due to the relatively massive cost of US contractors and US ordnance and parts costs.

    Russian stuff works fine in the heat.

    In india they do have particularly high humidity though. All aircraft would suffer in that environment.
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:54 pm


    Russia's major threat will be USA using Russia's muslim population against them.

    It has been done before, it will be done again.

    You forget the West readily harbors Chechen terrorists and pro-terrorist websites?


    Israel has a high muslim population, and terrorism everyday because of it.

    Economic health is a good way to combat extremism, but look at blacks in the USA, not so happy are they?



    Terrorism exists there because of Jews and their bullshit believes of being superior humans while arabs are just insects without any human link. The problems in ME are always the europeans especially anglo-sacksons and not muslims. Jews are european aswell.

    A good way to combat extrimism is not financing extrimism or chopping off those hands that pay people for mercanary work under banner of religion like Israel, US, Qatar, Saudis, Turkey and other Western slaves are doing. Nobody will go around killing if he does not get paid, there are two major different groups, the one group that we know for a fact that get paid beyond any job available in the entire region, what they would earn with normal jobs for 20-40 years they can do with USrael sponsors for playing their little Jihadi drones. No money and people will not fight, that is a simple principe and has much less to do with extrimism itself.

    And how are you supposed to improve a region's economic health with such terrorism?


    Muslims in Russia have the biggest mosque in Europe, and they are still not happy.

    Extremely stupid question. First Cut out the cancer US and Israel who are the root of extrimism, financing, founding, arming, using them as proxy soldiers but this alledged "religious fanatics" that hate everything that is not Islam, but never try to slaughter Saudi Royals or Jews which are the problem in the Muslim world. There is no Islamism, there are only Slave Masters who finance proxy mercenaries under the banner of religion. Nobody here would even know what a islamist terrorist is if it was not for Israel and USA and their financing of terrorist groups, forming of terrorist cells and inciting the entire Region and beyond. The muslims in Russia nor anywhere else are not the problem, the Problem is always the scum terrorists that pay others. If you get rid of the Muslims in Russia the US will find another group, manipulate them and finance them to fight russians, so then you deal again with symptoms not with the cancerous disease itself which hides behind Democracy, Freedom and Liberalism bullshit. It is the cancer and must be wiped out and Russia is already doing it. BRICS is the nail in the coffin of this evil empire.


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