Talking bollocks thread

Sorry but the SR71 AKA YF 12A a derivative of the A-12 had that layout in 1960.

Bollocks.





Which of the two above look like this:



I'd say it is fairly clear which is a copy of which...

And with this being said please don't refer to the mig 25 as a Mach 3 aircraft as it can't sustain the speed for even 2 minutes without turning it's engine to scrap. It's like saying a ship sunk in the Mariana's Trench is the world's

The Israelis claim to have tracked it doing Mach 3.2... are you suggesting they are liars.

BTW the speed of sound varies greatly with altitude and air pressure.... at 30,000m the speed of sound is much lower than it is a sea level.

It's just a stunt.!

It was done operationally.... not at an airshow.

When your balls are on the line would you worry about trashing the engines?

The carrier itself is an evolved design that for it's time was unsurpassed in power projection.

Most of the key technologies are not even American inventions...

Dead is dead there is no making something deader, so why waste the limited resources on such useless conventional systems with almost no use but showing off and taking on 2nd stringers. Just trying to be fair and truthful here that's all.

Cold war thinking still.... 30 years ago with 10,000 plus nukes each and the ICBMs to deliver them and you have a plausible case, but today with most of Europe now needing nuclear attention, yet the total number of strategic nuke weapons at 1,500 or less and there are a lot of targets that will need the attention of Blackjacks and their cruise missile love.

Even flying at supersonic speed all the way from Russia by the time the Tu-160 gets to its launch range (ie 5,500km from targets in the US) major airfields and air defences will be in ruins but there are so many population areas there is no chance all of them will be smoking... each Blackjack will light up 12 new cities or population centres about 14-16 hours after the ICBMs and SLBMs have done their job.

The purpose of the Blackjack is to remind US leaders that even if the ABM system was 100% effective that they wont be safe...

It is also useful for conventional attacks on places like Syria.

They are getting rather more bang for their buck from the Tu-160 and Tu-95 and Tu-22M3 than they have ever gotten previously from their strategic and theatre strike aircraft.

BTW If you think the only value in the Kirov class is to turn away 13 US carrier groups then you clearly don't understand the role of the Russian navy.

They don't need to invade or occupy or colonise the world, cruisers and carriers are about making surface ship groups safer and more effective by adding long range sensors and visibility and long range weapons and fire power.

Why carry 60 jet aircraft to support the operations of one bomber.... tanker, recon, CAP, and of course the actual strike aircraft to attack targets 2,500km from the carrier when a corvette can launch a single cruise missile to mount the same attack with a better chance of success?

Do you think either will hold back to preserve the other like some chivalrous knight of old?

There is nothing chivalrous about an American politician.

A win here is Russia having powerful weapons that deter the US from doing anything stupid... which is quite a feat in itself.

I have an E9 retired air force friend who knows an old timer exSR71 pilot who swears the Colonel told him the Blackbird can make and sustain Mach 4+!

Well here is the funny thing, aircraft are mainly pushed when used for real... the MiG-25 was pushed in the Middle East because the forces up against it really wanted it dead. In such a situation there is motivation for the pilot to push the aircraft... mach 3 flight might trash the engines, but nothing like a missile up the tail pipe will.

Equally there are plenty of examples where SR-71s flew operationally where speed kept them safe, yet they were never recorded flying faster than Mach 3.3.

Their world record for speed was Mach 3.2.

Smoking any cities after the balloon goes up is just wasting good fireworks, again dead is dead see the first line of the post. No one that has not been asleep for the last 70 years needs to be reminded of the capability of either to lay waste to the other or vice versa Even if there was no radiation do you think that either country will survive an unscathed opportunistic China? Keep fighting a no-win scenario if you wish, I got better things to do here in Hawaii like having a BBQ on the beach drinking a few Mai Tais and chasing bikini-clad girls, who knows, I might even catch a few

Smoking cities with cruise missiles is all about ensuring the US knows that it wont get away with an attack on Russia. Cities that survive the ICBMs and SLBMs run the risk of getting cruise missile nuked. It is called MAD and it is the only system that can be relied upon to actually work.

The only thing that will stop Trump from attacking is the knowledge that no matter how well his attack goes the reply he receives will devastate all of the US.

Deterrence.

It is not about killing Americans.... it is about making the idea of attacking Russia seem so suicidal that the US does not even try... thereby saving Russians and indirectly saving Americans too.

Yea OK, and only American politicians are crooked never Russian ones, right?

So your problem with what I am saying is not that I am wrong but that I have a pro Russian bias?

Perhaps you need to check the name of the website you are posting on?

The main thing is you're fair and nonbiased in your criticism and assessment of both politicians and performance about aircraft.(not) So long it is Russian is always better and never mind the real truth or that someone else could be right.

I was brought up in the western world where everything Soviet was copied badly from the west and everything else they make is junk.

The result is either conformity or rebellion.... I don't drink the pro US coolaide...

So absolutely willing to believe and shove the Israeli fairy tale down everyone's throat touting it as unequivocal truth when it suits your point of view, but unwilling to consider that the other guy's equally possible, but also unverified source might be correct only because you don't like America and hurts your misplaced sense of pride.

Soviet reports state the MiG-25 is redlined at Mach 2.83 for engine overspeed reasons... clearly means the aircraft can fly faster than the mach 2.83 it is claimed to fly at.

US information about the SR71 is a bit sketchy but does not mention faster than about Mach 3.2 or so.

The US has a history of exaggeration... ie F-111s flying at mach 2.5.... you know... that sort of crap...

That is what your brand of truth looks like from here pal. Tell me, the Israelis say they have no nuclear weapons, do you believe them? Would you risk the safety of the Rodina that they are telling the truth?

I don't live in a world of absolutes... nobody lies all the time just like nobody tells the truth all the time.

Please try to keep and express a FAIR and OBJECTIVE view and opinion so everyone can see the actual truth of it, and form their own opinion without you putting your thumb on the scales just to suit your personal desires or your particular brand of truth.

If you can't work something out it is your problem, I have no responsibility to spread the truth any more than the US does, or the Israelis or the west.

Ask Hilary Clinton... America has a right to lie when it comes to their national interests....

My view is my truth... I don't need to fuck around with a US or Israeli agenda... the west loves its superiority and it mostly gets that from the lies of its propaganda... the Soviets copy US stuff and not vice versa is a lie to perpetuate the western myth of moral and technological superiority.

You can continue to be a lemming all you want.

But stop running everything else down because the truth does not suit you as your bias tend to negate your post making it look like some corny propaganda poster worthy of a North Korean wall.

You brought up Nimitz Class carriers in a thread about a Russian strategic bomber, how about you make this more of a discussion and less of an argument and we wont be having such problems.

Also please note George1 asked you to follow the rules of this forum and introduce yourself.

He even included a link for you to find where to do so.

Please follow the rules... there is a reason his name and mine are in red.

As far as your opinion goes I agree with you about hillary and her ilk no one likes a crook, but let's not put 320 milliion other American people in that same barrel it just is not fair.

Perhaps you might want to reread what I have written here in this forum.

The US does not have 350 million politicians.

If all the Russian design were so good why is it not totally dominating the skies and selling like hotcakes around the world I can't post sales figures but they do tell a different story don't they??

Because American politicians are bastards if you cross them?

Sanctions.... and threats. Ask Turkey about buying S-400 instead of Patriot or THAAD.

Why pray tell is the much higher priced American equipment still being sold in record numbers?

There is no simple answer.. US weapons sales is corruption personified.... look at sales to Saudi Arabia... it keeps them out of the courts regarding crimes against humanity. Half of US weapons sales are paid for with soft loans the recipient country is not allowed to spend on anything but US weapons.

How can the military weapons prostitute possibly compete with the trailer park slut who gives it away?

We should concentrate on fixing our relations instead of wasting so many resources against each other which in the end if used will destroy us both if it comes down to war make no mistake of it. The Chinese are just waiting for such an opportunistic event to supplant everyone and be the dominant power despite the many friendly overtures to both our countries you better believe it.

The US has bent over backwards to create enemies for Russia so it could sit back and watch two of its rivals tear each other apart, and you suggest Russia should be friends with the US... why does the dominant superpower want friends for at this late stage of the game?

The US has had plenty of time to be friendly and understanding... it has blown plenty of opportunities to offer good faith.

The Russians gave up all of eastern europe and the US just moved in to take their place.

Russia was told if it gave up communism it would be welcomed into the international community... hasn't really happened either.

I really don't think there is anything to be gained by "fixing" relations because there is no way Russia could trust the US anyway.

Russia does not need to be a super power. It needs good relations with other countries and the opportunity to pursue its own goals and directions itself.

Ties with the US or the west will only give western politicians strings to pull when things don't go the way they want them to and we all know how the Russians respond to someone pulling their strings trying to guide their actions.

Personally I think Russia has a better future looking elsewhere from the west... China, India, Africa ...plenty of other places that are currently growing and developing and could use a hand up rather than a fist pushing them down.

America had its chance and showed its true colours... read my signature...

And like everyone else your country is no different despite the hype it sufferers from internal corruption which comes through in production models of the very same equipment that functioned so well under strict test conditions,

My country?

What has New Zealand got to do with this?

But stealing the Crimea from the Ukraine when they signed a non-aggression treaty does not help matters either.

Stealing?

You mean like the US Stole Guam to use as a military base or the Marshall Islands to destroy with nuclear weapons?

Actually the people of the Crimea had a vote and chose to return to Russia... really don't know where you got the term stolen from.

But don't take my word for it... ask a fellow American who posts here... his name is Auslander and he is much better able to describe the situation in the Ukraine and the Crimea. Check out the Ukrainian threads and you will find him.

It is Not the USA fault Poland, Romania and other former eastern block countries don't like Russia. Can't keep blaming baseless propaganda that is making this stuff happen all over Europe, you got to at last own up to the hatred and suspicion that you yourselves have sown is part of the problem.

The US building military bases in said countries is Americas fault, moving US armed soldiers into those countries is Americas fault... and amusing because you blame Russian aggression as the reason those forces are there...

Nato is not courting them they are petitioning nato to join.

Of course it is... just like it is trying to get Finland to join too...

, take the thumb off the scales please so that you give an accurate account and clearer picture as there is lots of crap done by both parties be honest in your assessment, in that there are no blameless parties here.

Of course.... if the rape victim struggles then they are fighting too so they are not innocent right? If they don't fight then they obviously want to be raped...

The west illegally overthrows a democratically elected government in the Ukraine which is accepted in the west because that elected government was not pro EU and was about to sign an economic agreement with Russia. The illegal new government of Kiev is not accepted by large parts of the Ukraine including the Crimea and a lot of areas in the east of the ukraine but apparently all ukrainian citizens must accept the illegal coup and accept their new masters and when they resist kiev it must be Russia that is the aggressor. The crimeans decided to not accept the illegal government in kiev and chose to join Russia but undemocratic things like referendums don't count when the result does not suit the west.It seems albanians in serbia deserve their freedoms without a referendum, but even with a referendum the people of Crimea must accept the unelected leadership of kiev as their rulers.

I love your understanding of what happened... it is part of the reason Russia is better off without friends like the US.

Things can get better as we try to mend fences and work to improve things or I don't know if you realize there are many selfish people in Congress and now the White House that would like nothing better than to start a whole new arms race again with a maverick President of the United States that is only too glad to go along with these nuts to spend another trillion dollars on defense a year like drunken sailors hitting a port. As a lot of those same congressmen that own defense companies and defense stocks will profit greatly by it and with the deck stacked against an increasingly poorer and isolated economically Russia compared to the top GDP in the world America, and the European Union that will be right alongside what do you think the outcome will be?

And the irony is that it would have been even worse under Clinton.

There is no point in trying to be allies. The US cannot comprehend such a relationship. It would not last and the only partner to suffer such a relationship would be Russia.

Why tie their own hands with agreements when the benefits will only go one way like they have always done?

They are now giving speeches on the tube that they are willing to spend 100 to Russia's 1 !! Remember what the arms race did to the Soviet Union with a vastly bigger economy?

The Russians don't need to outspend the US... such talk brings a smile to my face because it will end the US faster than anything Russia could or would do on its own.

I think if we start to know each other better, we can start breaking down the barriers that are there now, at least worth the try and certainly willing on my part to give it a chance. Sarcasm for my suggestion

Few Americans have any idea about the British or French let alone the Russians and I don't think that will change.

The Americans that seem to know the Russians best are ridiculed as Putins pawns. Noam Chomski is one example... but he gets little time on US media...

Sounds like you want a sour relationship to continue

What I want is irrelevant.

Russia has jumped through hoops and still they are ridiculed by the western media and western politicians, and sanctions are imposed without evidence.

Ironically the sanctions have made Russia rather more self sufficient and a bit more resistant... and I hope less idealistic regarding the west.

They have realised there are plenty of other countries around the world that want to play by the rules and don't want to screw you every chance they get.

I don't hate the US but being best friends with Russia is not going to happen any time soon and in the current self destructive mood the US is in at the moment I don't think a close good relationship would be of benefit anyway even if it was possible.

Just saying the perception the west has is generally what I stated like it or not.

Wrong. The western propaganda is what you stated but those who don't rely on western media for all their information know full well it was a non violent bloodless referendum, which allowed the people of the Crimea to make their own decision.

You know like the people on the Falklands Islands did.

And while you believe I might need a little history of Russian territorial issues I am open to it and I actually, welcome it as one of the reasons I joined this forum. I came here to express what I am exposed to and wanted to hear others point of view as we all sit in different chairs. But there is no need for childish name calling and belittling a person as I certainly did not try to offend anyone on purpose nor did I imply any disrespect to anyone here and only wish to be treated just as you would.

Well in that case I would suggest you look at the threads on the Ukraine on this forum and have a bit of a read.

Perhaps after reading those threads you might understand how someone claiming Russia stole the Crimea from anyone would lead to name calling.

If you geniunely want to understand talk to Auslander... an American that lives in the Crimea right now, but I would suggest you don't start talking to him telling him the Russians are the bad guys and the regime in Kiev is the innocent and slighted party.... listen... he will set you straight

My statement was meant to say do not lump all of America in with a corrupt politician as it is hardly fair

Blaming me for not being fair is hardly fair when I never said all Americans are as corrupt as their politicians.

It does not matter if half the population of the US love Russians and the other half don't give a fuck either way.... what matters is what congress do and what the US government does and what the US media says and that is all hate all the time.

A good example is this Russian Hackers bullshit.

There was a lot of crap released from the DNC regarding the Hillary campaign and we are told it was Russian hackers trying to get Trump elected.

There has never been an ounce of evidence, just that Russian hackers are suspected because Trump getting into power in the US was in Russias interests.

No mention of the fact that the DNC is made up of about half Clinton supporters and half Sanders supporters and the Sanders supporters within the DNC probably got pretty pissed off with the serious Clinton bias... I mean there is no way those Sanders supporters could have possibly leaked some dirt on Hilary cause that is just too fucking obvious.

Too fucking obvious for any western media to come up with either... they all just chant Russian hackers Russian Hackers... fucking amazing Russian hackers that leave no evidence at all... amazing. Super Putin probably hacked them himself... he is a bond super villan don't you know.

My apologies for not knowing you are from New Zealand I erroneously assumed I was speaking to someone from Russia.

Well having a name like Garry and a location that says New Zealand, I did give every clue...

Does it actually make any difference?

Just enough with the namecalling and heavy sarcasm as it is counterproductive and a waste of time. It is not why I joined this forum, as I am sure that is not why you joined either.

I don't normally name call, but I make no apologies for sarcasm.

Rrob, i will tell you what needs to happen. Nato should pull out of Russia's traditional sphere of influence, Baltics, Balkans, and other former Soviet Union territories. Allow Russia to expand into these areas and incorporate them into a larger Russian federation. Once these conditions are met then perhaps a new age of friendship between the United States and Russia can blossom.

Nah... Russia is finally free of those dropkicks... just look at how long it took for them to turn on Russia and blame Russia for all their problems.... Russia is better off without them... and who needs to pick up their tab? Let the democracy loving EU do that for a bit...

Then when things go tits up it will still be Russias fault.... probably them hackers again...

Interesting take on America's interference of Russia's traditional sphere of influence thank you.

I doubt Russia actually wants to reoccupy the warsaw pact, but I am sure what it actually wants is the US and NATO to remove its forces from those areas.

It was seriously pissed off that when it withdrew from eastern europe that the US did not withdraw from western europe... worse it actually moved right up to Russias border...

If the US withdrew from Europe completely Russia would not move in to replace it. They don't need that sort of baggage.

I have little chance of changing the situation coming from a very minor state in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with little political clout.

As the gap between rich and poor gets bigger and bigger western "democracies" will become more like South Africa with the rich few (whites in this case) living in gated communities with the space between home and work a war zone where you carry a gun and had better know how to use it.

The great philosopher George Romero who created the best zombie movies... it was not an accident that the survivors end up in a mall... the centre of US comsumerism... where the zombie poor hunt the few and the getting fewer 'rich'...

The rich can either make the necessary changes or there will be blood.

BTW lots of very big houses in central otago owned by rich foreigners... so if everything goes tits up I will tell you how they taste...

Did not NATO turn down the Ukraine's request for membership?

The Ukraine does not qualify for NATO membership despite being fast tracked by the US, as she has disputed territory issues.

The US did everything they could to push it.

Don't see the need for nato to incorporate Finland as there are plenty of bases we don't need already.

Don't see the need for the Baltic states or eastern europe or former Soviet republics being in NATO... except extra bodies to send to Iraq and Afghanistan... you know hard core protecting Europe from their enemies...

What you hear about this stupid Russian collusion crap is being perpetrated by the George Soros democrat controlled media outfits and has damn little interest or credibility for most Americans. And believe it there are plenty of Americans who don't buy into the crap they spew and sick of hearing only one side of the story so much so that it is estimated that over 1 million American cable tv subscribers have cut their services off in the last 4 months.  Don't know where you get your sources from, but I assure you not many here buy that media line of bunk.

Doesn't matter if all Americans believe it or none believe it.

What matter is that the Russia US relationship is being shaped by US sanctions and the bullshit it is based around meaning there can be no practical relationship built on anything between the two countries until that shit is washed away.

Hey, if you're perfectly happy with the status quo of the two respective countries so be it. Your choice to live as you wish, I'm not trying to force anyone to do otherwise.  

What are the alternatives?

The US embracing Russia.... and using it as a mine of resources to feed their own appetite.. Russia does not benefit from such a relationship.

But you should at least consider that all the hardliners in this country's leadership simply love that kind of stuff as it fuels and reinforces their ability to continue funding and even increase their current expansionist policies.  Who knows they are asking to expand the military by another 20 percent if it keeps up maybe Europe will become home to another 1oo or 200 new NATO bases.  Don't think that will be much of help in a real war, nor improve things for our peoples' lives but that is where things seem to be going without any effort to try and change things.

Such actions will either lead to Americans waking up and demanding change or all the abundant resources of the US wasted in such things even you admit wont mean a thing if a real war starts.

Either way such actions will bring an end to now with the potential for change in the future.

Last thought, once upon a time the two countries had a relationship and even joined forces to defeat fascism around the world it might not have been perfect, but a lot of older Americans still respect and like the Russian people current bad relations aside. To me it seems a shame to just not try and just give up
Good post, thanks for the opinions.

Americans I have chatted to all seem fixated on being the last super power... they want to wield the big stick... they want to be able to use force to get their way in all things. They don't care about being right or the truth or even being respected and sadly that has been reflected in your governments.

The old line... truth, justice, the American way... seems to have changed... TRUTH And JUSTICE were the American way... these days it seems lies and revenge are quicker and easier... the new American way. If you can't get your way bomb them... and look all indignant and innocent when they do the same to you.

When you want to be a team player come and tell us... we will just be getting on without you until you are ready...

BTW I am going to move a lot of this chatter tomorrow.... it does not really belong in a thread about the PAK DA....