The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

Airbornewolf wrote:Cowboy, try to post links to your information sources . its highly appreciated around here when we can look ourselves at the information sources that users refer their posts to. i understand posting the entire pages is too much but most of us are willing to check out the source of official reports like the one you mentioned.

Sorry, when I tried to post links, I had a message pop up saying I had to wait 7 days to post links.

I'll try it again.

TR1 wrote:Eh.

While I certainly am no Putin defender, I think the specifics of Crimea did play a part.
The demographic and geographic specificity particularly compared to Donbass were very relevant IMO.

Let's assume for a second that crimea is 100 percent populated by patriotic ukrainians. Do you think in that case putin would in no way consider snatching it anyway?

Austin wrote:Stephen F. Cohen ,The West vs Russia, Munk Debates,Should the West engage or isolate Russia

Thank you! Nope. 4 more days, then I can post links.

auslander wrote:
If the rubber stamp hague court wants us to go back to Ukraine, tell them to come and make us.

the rebellious South.

etaepsilonk wrote:

TR1 wrote:Eh.

While I certainly am no Putin defender, I think the specifics of Crimea did play a part.
The demographic and geographic specificity particularly compared to Donbass were very relevant IMO.

Let's assume for a second that crimea is 100 percent populated by patriotic ukrainians. Do you think in that case putin would in no way consider snatching it anyway?

He would not have made a move in that case. Of that I am 100% certain.

etaepsilonk wrote:Same with crimea. Putler wanted a launchpoint for ukraine invasion, therefore, it became "a historical russian land".

Crimea was historical Russian land, though that is secondary to what the Crimeans actually wanted.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

etaepsilonk wrote:Same with crimea. Putler wanted a launchpoint for ukraine invasion, therefore, it became "a historical russian land".

Crimea was historical Russian land, though that is secondary to what the Crimeans actually wanted.

It's even simpler than that, the majority of the citizens of Crimea were and are still Russian. Less than a quarter were Ukrainian, it's a numbers game.

I can't see how people can justify Crimea staying part of Ukraine.

1) Crimea was illegally transferred to Ukraine in two phases:
    - Khurschev's illegal gift of the autonomous republic of Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR
    - Illegal abrogation of the autonomous status of Crimea after 1991 by the independent state of Ukraine
   
2) Sebastopol was not part of Khruschev's gift but somehow ended up going for the ride.

3) Clearly we have here a gross abuse of international and national legal norms.  "Facts on the ground"
   count for exactly f*ck all and can't be used as an excuse a posteriori

4) The International Court of Justice at the Hague ruled that the secession of Kosovo from Serbia
   was legal without any referendum and there is no such thing as territorial integrity primacy over
   the right to self-determination.   This ruling has been systematically ignored by the whole of the
   NATO media and the Russian media as well.   There is no media in Ukraine, it is a pile of propaganda.

5) The majority of Crimeans wanted to assert their rights (which are not at the whim of Kiev or Washington):
     - restore at the very least autonomous status which was illegally removed from them
     - following international law and due process establish via referendum if the majority wants
       to submit to Kiev's abuse or secede
     - ask to join Russia.

So Russia this, Putin that is all a stinking pile of BS.  The Crimeans spoke loud and clear and Russia helped
stop Kiev's goons from silencing them.   NATO can keep on chirping about annexation from now until
Kingdom Come.   NATO is in the process of becoming more and more irrelevant and that is why the US
is so desperate.

Not all of the Crimean peninsula is part of the Crimean republic or Sevastopol. For instance, the village of Strilkove is on the peninsula but remains part of Kherson oblast. Putin was very careful not to touch any place where a referendum was not held. Kudos to the P Man.

Anyone know if the northern part of the Arabat spit was part of the Crimean oblast when Khruschev illegally transferred it from Russia to Ukraine?

kvs wrote:I can't see how people can justify Crimea staying part of Ukraine.

1) Crimea was illegally transferred to Ukraine in two phases:
    - Khurschev's illegal gift of the autonomous republic of Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR
    - Illegal abrogation of the autonomous status of Crimea after 1991 by the independent state of Ukraine
   
2) Sebastopol was not part of Khruschev's gift but somehow ended up going for the ride.

Back then there was no autonomous republic of Crimea. As far as I understand it, Khruschev transferred the Crimean oblast, which later became the Crimean republic and the Sevastopol city of state significance, and the northern part of the Arabat spit ended up being part of Kherson oblast.

flamming_python wrote:
It acted preemptively in WW2; annexed the Baltic States, Eastern Poland, and attacked Finland - all in order to create buffers and secure its borders.

That's a bit of a distortion of the historical record.  The USSR acted to REGAIN the territories that Tsarist Russia lost as a result of WW1.  As a result of the 3 partitions of Poland between 1772 & 1795, the Baltic States and the Eastern Poland became Russian territory and remained so for over 120 years until the end of WW1, so its not unreasonable that Moscow would seek to recover them, particularly after the Polish military aggression between 1919-21 that saw Poland take advantage of post-revolution and civil war chaos to grab a huge chunk of Russian/Ukrainian territory.  

Finland on the other hand had been part of the Tsarist Empire since it was won from Sweden in the Finnish war of 1808-1809 and became an autonomous Grand Duchy, but the defeat in WW1 led to Finland declaring independence and fighting a civil war in which the pro-Russia "red" factions were defeated by the "whites" (with assistance from Germany).  Again, the USSR felt justified in trying to reassert itself over lost territories it had held for 110 years prior to WW1.

Looking through the dispassionate lens of European martial history, Russian/Soviet plans to regain lost territory is consistent with the behaviour of all continental Great Powers of the period.  Despite the blabbering of Russian officials (particularly the communists) in denouncing the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, I think that Stalin was fully justified in his actions.  A non-agression pact with Nazi Germany was essential to buy time to prepare for the inevitable Nazi attack, and they recovered their lost territories (and expanded their defensive buffer zone) in the process.

Russophobes (especially history-challenged Americans) love to complain bitterly about Russian invasions against Poland and Finland, and hold it up an example of alleged "Russian aggression", but they never consider any history prior to 1939. Considered within the context of European history of the time, Russia's actions were understandable and defensible, certainly if one considers contemporary French and British colonial endeavors of the period, and their belated post-WW2 attempts to reconsolidate colonial control over their lost possessions in French Indo-China or British Burma & Malaya as examples.

kvs wrote:I can't see how people can justify Crimea staying part of Ukraine.

1) Crimea was illegally transferred to Ukraine in two phases:
    - Khurschev's illegal gift of the autonomous republic of Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR
    - Illegal abrogation of the autonomous status of Crimea after 1991 by the independent state of Ukraine
   
2) Sebastopol was not part of Khruschev's gift but somehow ended up going for the ride.

3) Clearly we have here a gross abuse of international and national legal norms.  "Facts on the ground"
   count for exactly f*ck all and can't be used as an excuse a posteriori

4) The International Court of Justice at the Hague ruled that the secession of Kosovo from Serbia
   was legal without any referendum and there is no such thing as territorial integrity primacy over
   the right to self-determination.   This ruling has been systematically ignored by the whole of the
   NATO media and the Russian media as well.   There is no media in Ukraine, it is a pile of propaganda.

5) The majority of Crimeans wanted to assert their rights (which are not at the whim of Kiev or Washington):
     - restore at the very least autonomous status which was illegally removed from them
     - following international law and due process establish via referendum if the majority wants
       to submit to Kiev's abuse or secede
     - ask to join Russia.

So Russia this, Putin that is all a stinking pile of BS.  The Crimeans spoke loud and clear and Russia helped
stop Kiev's goons from silencing them.   NATO can keep on chirping about annexation from now until
Kingdom Come.   NATO is in the process of becoming more and more irrelevant and that is why the US
is so desperate.

Very well stated. 100% in agreement.

Hypocrisy is the No 1 product of the Imperial Euro-Atlantic Oligarchy, with Subversion running a very close second place.

TR1 wrote:

etaepsilonk wrote:

TR1 wrote:Eh.

While I certainly am no Putin defender, I think the specifics of Crimea did play a part.
The demographic and geographic specificity particularly compared to Donbass were very relevant IMO.

Let's assume for a second that crimea is 100 percent populated by patriotic ukrainians. Do you think in that case putin would in no way consider snatching it anyway?

He would not have made a move in that case. Of that I am 100% certain.

Yup, agreed, without any doubt.

Cowboy's daughter wrote: the rebellious South.

Yup. We've never forgotten The War of Northern Aggression and never will.

The similarities of the two situations are in some ways striking and in other ways vastly different.

A couple of events here that are rarely noted. One, Poland opened a consulate on southside a little over a year before the Kiev mess started, in a purpose built structure that is considerably larger than would be needed for our sleepy little bucolic village. Why?

Right Sector 10's were filtering down here from early January. They stood out like a sore thumb and were clearly identifiable. Many of them were seen openly going in and out of the Polish Consulate frequently.

There were a number of catalysts that told us what was coming and sparked the move to barricade the borders and cities and arm up for defense. Militsiya and DAI heads were quietly replaced with new faces not from Krimu. Militsiya and DAI stations were noted receiving quantities of automats and medium MG's with enough ammo to hold off an army. Right Sector 10's were clearly visible taking over the Tatar demonstration at Krim Rada in Simferopol and it was they who turned violent and tried to storm the building (and in process getting their little back door access deal, watched and ignored by Militsiya guarding that door, a pretty severe nostril braiding). SBU in Sevastopol were noted receiving numerous additional cadre in late January through late February.

The real spark that set us off was that fateful Monday morning after the coup in Kiev when Yarush and Tyagnibok clearly stated in a live interview on Channel 5 in Kiev, owned by the way by Mr. Poroshenko, that they would lead their combined 5000 fighters and 'come down to Krim and put every Russian to the knife and burn that stinking city (Sevastopol) to the ground'. Within minutes the entire peninsula knew of those statements and at least in our little village on north side the citizens were in the streets, the women with fear in their eyes and the men ready to fight. They were not joking and we knew that fact.

The rest of the events followed rapidly. The first night on the barricades, 5 around Sevastopol, two at the north borders and three at Yalta, we had nothing but clubs except the north border where there were a few automats amongst the clubs. Krim Rada was secured and fortified well before dawn of the day Right Sector had clearly stated they were going to 'come back and burn Rada to the ground'. Various Militsiya and DAI stations and substations were visited and persuaded to open their armories to Opolchensya. Opolchensya itself grew by leaps and bounds, so many volunteers that there was no way to process them all at first. SBU tried and failed in their attempt to arrest A. Chalyi. Deputats of Sevastopol Rada were caught red handed plotting to hand the keys to the city to Right Sector operatives, overheard by two cleaning ladies who erupted from City Administration Building on Naximova Square screaming bloody murder which brought 5,000 citizens to the streets and squares around the building and stopped the deputat's little plots.

I could go on for hours laying out the details of what happened but I just don't have the time today. I may add to this tome this evening with a few more details of interest if there is interest.

The reality of Ukraine..

Ukraine have less than 30 years of history as a country
since 1654 75% of today Ukraine territory have been always a native land of Russia
Empire..

Since 1795 about 95% of Ukraine was Russia.. but all this numbers changed for small periods
because Poland was relatively always at war with Russia ,invaded whenever Russia was weak to take more lands..

and if we go back even more in time ,year 900s when the Roman Bizantine empire
still around.. Kiev was the capital of Russians speaking people.. Ukrainian language is nothing more than a Dialect of Russian.. with polish words. Ukrainian language was the farmers dialect of Russian. The project of Ukraine as a country, separated from the Russian Empire ,began
in world war 1 , when Germans invaded Russia and took lots of territory of Russia.. at that time Russia was on a civil war ,the bolshevicks revolution ,that ended the era of Russia Tsar Empire under .. and began the Soviet Union..and they took control back of their lost territories withing just 3 years . So basically Ukraine became a nation.. officially after the collapse of Soviet Union.. in 1991.. . althought Fakepedia.. wikipedia likes to claim Ukraine and Kievan Rus was the same thing.. The fact that Russia have very well documented history and many wars..
and Ukraine have NO documented history of any war   shows the fraud that is to claim Ukraine was a nation.. it never was.. until soviet union collapse.




IF you look at the map of Russia evolution above.. you will notice something really interesting..
Ukrainians (as an ethnic group or race) does not exist at all.. there are very small minorities like TATARs and greeks.. and in western Ukraine , europeans.. from border countries. it will be impossible for anyone in most of Ukraine and call itself Ukrainian and speak the ukrainian dialect..,to not have ancestors that are 100% russians. This is because
since 1795 95% of the territory of Ukraine was Russian Empire and remained under control of Russian speaking in moscow even in Soviet Times.. Ukraine is nothing more than a political opposition of Russia .. nothing more and nothing less. Just like it is belarus.

Ukraine is as much a country.. as venice is from Rome..both nothing more than different cities of ITALY.. just a another region of the same Country ,same culture and same people. but if one day Venice just to split from Rome.. it will be a political split.. and not a different culture or nation in real practice. and people will have families living in both sides.. living in a different political country overnight.


What happened here ..is that the soviet Union
began to repress society and to isolate itself from Europe.. and that provoked the western regions of Russia to seek separation of its mother land at the earliest opportunity.. they had.. and that was with the soviet union collapse. But in reality Ukrainians and Russians are same people..but different words. Ukrainians are brainwashed since childhood with stories of they being Galicians or other non sense. and how Russia invaded them.

The only exception however are western ukrainians.. the ones that USA finaced to overthrow yakunovych this is the Banderas sweet home ,people from western Ukraine... they were never Russians.. and not even ukrainians.. they are Polish ,austrian and Hungarians. and their land was artificially attached by Germans to the territories occupied by Germany in Russia ,to De-Rusophy their conquered lands..  Today Americans are taking things to a new level by
encouraging kiev to bomb any one who feels Russian and reject their history to be erased
by their new fascist government in kiev.

My oh My, Kyiv goverment is becoming a clown, literally.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/vladimir-putin-facing-ukrainian-sanctions-over-imprisonment-of-nadiya-savchenko-423868.html

Vladimir Putin facing Ukrainian sanctions        over imprisonment of Nadiya Savchenko

Vann7 wrote:The only exception however are western ukrainians.. the ones that USA finaced to overthrow yakunovych this is the Banderas sweet home ,people from western Ukraine... they were never Russians.. and not even ukrainians.. they are Polish ,austrian and Hungarians. and their land was artificially attached by Germans to the territories occupied by Germany in Russia ,to De-Rusophy their conquered lands..

Hence the name "Ukraina" aka "land at the borderline".

Actually the true territories of Ukraine should be something around Lviv, well, to hell with it, Poland and Czechoslovakia nationalists won't waste any chance to claim that strip of land...

auslander wrote:

Cowboy's daughter wrote: the rebellious South.

Yup. We've never forgotten The War of Northern Aggression and never will.

The similarities of the two situations are in some ways striking and in other ways vastly different.

A couple of events here that are rarely noted. One, Poland opened a consulate on southside a little over a year before the Kiev mess started, in a purpose built structure that is considerably larger than would be needed for our sleepy little bucolic village. Why?

Right Sector 10's were filtering down here from early January. They stood out like a sore thumb and were clearly identifiable. Many of them were seen openly going in and out of the Polish Consulate frequently.

There were a number of catalysts that told us what was coming and sparked the move to barricade the borders and cities and arm up for defense. Militsiya and DAI heads were quietly replaced with new faces not from Krimu. Militsiya and DAI stations were noted receiving quantities of automats and medium MG's with enough ammo to hold off an army. Right Sector 10's were clearly visible taking over the Tatar demonstration at Krim Rada in Simferopol and it was they who turned violent and tried to storm the building (and in process getting their little back door access deal, watched and ignored by Militsiya guarding that door, a pretty severe nostril braiding). SBU in Sevastopol were noted receiving numerous additional cadre in late January through late February.

The real spark that set us off was that fateful Monday morning after the coup in Kiev when Yarush and Tyagnibok clearly stated in a live interview on Channel 5 in Kiev, owned by the way by Mr. Poroshenko, that they would lead their combined 5000 fighters and 'come down to Krim and put every Russian to the knife and burn that stinking city (Sevastopol) to the ground'. Within minutes the entire peninsula knew of those statements and at least in our little village on north side the citizens were in the streets, the women with fear in their eyes and the men ready to fight. They were not joking and we knew that fact.

The rest of the events followed rapidly. The first night on the barricades, 5 around Sevastopol, two at the north borders and three at Yalta, we had nothing but clubs except the north border where there were a few automats amongst the clubs. Krim Rada was secured and fortified well before dawn of the day Right Sector had clearly stated they were going to 'come back and burn Rada to the ground'. Various Militsiya and DAI stations and substations were visited and persuaded to open their armories to Opolchensya. Opolchensya itself grew by leaps and bounds, so many volunteers that there was no way to process them all at first. SBU tried and failed in their attempt to arrest A. Chalyi. Deputats of Sevastopol Rada were caught red handed plotting to hand the keys to the city to Right Sector operatives, overheard by two cleaning ladies who erupted from City Administration Building on Naximova Square screaming bloody murder which brought 5,000 citizens to the streets and squares around the building and stopped the deputat's little plots.

I could go on for hours laying out the details of what happened but I just don't have the time today. I may add to this tome this evening with a few more details of interest if there is interest.

After I saw the documentary "Crimea -The way home" there is so much that could have gone wrong but did not because of actions based on courage and a staggering amount of luck (crucial bits here and there). Also in the documentary you can clearly feel an atmosphere danger, true evil from kiev. I also saw part of old footage from about 20 years ago more or less when extremists from western ukraine visited crimea and started killing people. I guess the people of the krim knew exactly what kiev was up to and what to do about it. Still, this kind of solidarity in the face of evil aggression, you don't see it often and when you do it doesn't succeed and when it succeeds it's not without massive bloodshed. Truly unique in history. Thankfully, the utter incompetence of the regime helped a lot too.

"After I saw the documentary "Crimea -The way home" there is so much that could have gone wrong but did not because of actions based on courage and a staggering amount of luck (crucial bits here and there). Also in the documentary you can clearly feel an atmosphere danger, true evil from kiev. I also saw part of old footage from about 20 years ago more or less when extremists from western ukraine visited crimea and started killing people. I guess the people of the krim knew exactly what kiev was up to and what to do about it. Still, this kind of solidarity in the face of evil aggression, you don't see it often and when you do it doesn't succeed and when it succeeds it's not without massive bloodshed. Truly unique in history. Thankfully, the utter incompetence of the regime helped a lot too."

A lot was left out of the documentary and some things were embellished a bit, but you are generally correct as to the events. For instance the 'freedom train' actually stopped in Kherson Oblast when right sector was informed that our boys were waiting for them at train station in Sim. It took them over an hour to unload all the weapons, body armor and crates of molotovs from the train. Only a very few of the right sector boys actually continued on to Sim and their welcome was less than cordial.

I have not the time to write more at this moment, we'll be back in the evening.

Monarchist wrote:Lavrov's continued talks about a united Ukraine and how Russia will do anything to keep Ukraine united disgusts me more and more.

It's actually more like "Kiev and Donbass have to keep talking" (and talking makes less war). Politico talk. The end result may be something entirely different.

Lavrov's continued talks about a united Ukraine and how Russia will do anything to keep Ukraine united disgusts me more and more.

Actually I agree with Lavrov... a full scale civil war is not the solution... initially autonomous like regions might work with the potential for future elections to sort things out... if they can hold free and fair elections then the nazis definitely wont hold the power they hold now and things might improve considerably. If they can't hold free and fair elections then after the bloody civil war where lots of people are going to die at least they can say they tried doing it peacefully at the ballot box.

Russia should work secretive to seize all of eastern ukraine since it is russian soil anyway and i really hope they are aiming exactly for that and not for actual federalization.

The Crimea is Russian soil and of significant strategic value... the rest of the ukraine is just the ukraine... those that look east and those that look west don't necessarily think of themselves as western europeans or russians... and they are not homogeneous... in other words if you take an eastern region into russia you will add a few people who think of themselves as Russians but you will also integrate some people who hate Russia... Russia does not need that. If they want to be Russians then they can move back to Russian soil... IMHO.

Wait, do you seriously believe that putler actually cares about some crimea peasants? Russia would've occupied crimea regardless of people's allegiance, be they russians or ukrainians or klingons.
Alternatively, if a deal satisfying putler's ego is reached, crimea will be re-transferred in an identical manner

Clearly an opinion shown to be wrong by actual events. If Putin wanted the Crimea at all costs then an open invasion would have been easy... they already had plenty of soldiers already based there as part of the lease agreement. the fact is that Russian troops ensured stability and peace so a free and fair referendum could take place... if it had been 96% in favour of staying with the Ukraine I rather doubt Putin would have bothered... fighting 96% of the population is pointless... no matter what sort of fire power you have you can't win that one.

If 90+% voted to not be part of the Ukraine I would suggest it would become another Vietnam for the west if they tried to force it back to the Ukraine.

And it's Mr. Putin, just as it's Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Obama, regardless of now I personally feel about any and all of them.

Respect for leaders.... that is something the west has forgotten... basic manners really.

Russian did not 'occupy' Krimu. It was US who set up the barricades, it was US who armed up and stopped the Ukes from coming down here, it was US who defended this city and this peninsula when the Flot Kommandeer clearly stated that his prekasse was to protect the Flot, not this city or the peninsula. It was US who took Sevastopol, it was US who took Krim Rada in Simferopol, it was US who tossed the Ukr. functionaries out, it was US who organized the referendum, it was US who petitioned to Russia to join the Russian Federation. Krim was, is and always will be Russia. Understand that and accept that. There will never again be a foreign flag flying over Krimu, it will always be the Russian flag.

For a second I didn't understand you... but you are saying us, you are not saying the US or United States...
There was a similar misunderstanding recently with werewolf...

Jeez, all it takes is one comment not completely in line with praising the dear leader, and all prorussian trolls come swarming in. Must be a hive mentality of sorts

Likening Putin to Hitler... perhaps compare the current leader of Israel with Hitler too.... no that would be anti semetic wouldn't it? Yet Putin has built no ghettos for the local populace like Israel has...

Oh, and this nationalistic chest beating of yours (spiced up by your half-english-half-german typing) is quite funny, considering that if yanukovich only had retained that little thiefdom of his, crimeans would have no other choice but to put up with the demonic ukrainian fascism.

You have a good point but the lesson you learn is wrong... if the US supported Euro nazis didn't overthrow the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine then the Crimea would be part of a broken economy with not much of a future...

We were not at the publik events simply because as a foreign man here we reasoned, and the PTB agreed, that I/we would stay in the background and not attend the publik meetings and such. We were acutely aware of every event in this city and Krimu during that time and watched almost everything on CCTV close to the publik events.

I understand your decision, but still think it would have been funny for a CNN or BBC reporter identifying you as an American and wanting desperately to hear your views on this aggression from Russia.... Boy I bet that film would have hit the editors floor faster than the nude pictures of Madeline Allbright and Hillary Clinton.

A madman who conquered nations and cooked a bunch of people justified his actions by claiming that all of that belonged to his nation at one point or another anyway, it was only taken away by the criminal schemes of people wishing misfortune to them.

Except unlike Hitler and Suck arse milli vanilli, Putin didn't try to exterminate the 4% of Crimean people who didn't vote to join Russia... and I suspect whoever was in charge of the Spanish armada that wiped out the Aztecs never held a vote either.

If maidanites had right to overthrow an elected govt same rights E.ukrainians have to form a seperate republic .

Has western hypocrisy written all over it... the unelected junta in the ukraine are the legal government and have the right to rule the country but the people in the eastern regions and the crimea don't have the right to vote to not be ruled by them.
Just as the albanians in serbia have a right to a separate country called Kosovo, but the Serbs in kosovo and indeed bosnia don't have the right for their own countries too.

If lots of people hadn't died because of it it would be funny.

Many people in donbas were asked and wanted donbas to become russian soil, many there also didn't want to be "in the failed artificial created fake state Ukraine that never existed in human history before". But it only took a putler's decision and it didn't happen.

yeah.... walking around with a microphone asking people questions is no basis for developing foreign policy... if you asked 20 people in Florida about whether the US should invade Cuba again... don't you think the results would be a little biased... especially if the people asked were Cuban exiles?

Do you think that crimea is somehow different in this regard? had putler not want crimea as part of russia, it wouldn't be part of russia, no matter how many referendums they'd decide to make.

the difference is that the Crimea was part of Russia. The parts of the Ukraine we are talking about have changed hands many times.

That's quite rich, coming from the closet nazi claiming that internationally recognized country doesn't have the right to exist

You mean like the west that does not recognise the rights of the Palestinians or the South Ossetians or Abkhazians, yet thinks Kosovo is a real country?

Let's assume for a second that crimea is 100 percent populated by patriotic ukrainians. Do you think in that case putin would in no way consider snatching it anyway?

Do you think he even could?

If you think he will snatch any country whether it wants to become part of Russia or not then why hasn't he integrated South Ossetia and Abkhazia and for that matter Georgia into the Russian federation. And for that matter why not the Baltic states and Finland?

The Crimea was a part of Russia and the people of the Crimea have been trying to join Russia for quite some time, but were blocked from doing so by the Ukrainian government ignoring the results of elections and referendums.

BTW if you think the Crimea should be part of the Ukraine no matter what the people there think I would love to see your opinion about the illegal UK occupation of the Malvinas...

He would not have made a move in that case. Of that I am 100% certain.

X2 when the person you are playing chess with exposes their queen at the risk of a pawn you take it... but first you make sure you don't expose yourself to a special move... the Queen is taken and the west has only imposed sanctions that cut lots of ties with western europe which hurt both sides... ironically the result has been rather more diversification and investment in Russia and new markets that don't have negative ulterior motives.

The sanctions have damaged Russia, but they have also damaged the EU and the new ties Russia is creating with the rest of the world will be rather more valuable to both parties than the status quo of hitching your horse to an unreliable post.

I could go on for hours laying out the details of what happened but I just don't have the time today. I may add to this tome this evening with a few more details of interest if there is interest.

You should write a book... these details should be put in front of the people who say Putin annexed the Crimea.

It's actually more like "Kiev and Donbass have to keep talking" (and talking makes less war). Politico talk. The end result may be something entirely different.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

Like the great philosopher Kenny Rogers once said... "You gotta know when to walk away and know when to run." A fight will prove nothing... wars are not won by those who are right, they are won by those prepared to inflict bloody violence on the other party and keeps doing so after the other party has stopped moving... the US would love a fight in the Ukraine... for the same reasons it loved the fight between Germany and the Soviet Union, and would love a fight between India and China or Russia and China.

Absolute cringeworthy.

Monarchist wrote:[youtube]movie here[/youtube]



Absolute cringeworthy.

That was wrong on so many levels. Truly.

Monarchist wrote:



Absolute cringeworthy.

Mentally ill fantasists...

For those ignorants like me who only speak English?

.....