Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

Mustafa wrote:

Acheron wrote:

Mustafa wrote:I already said a dozen times it was a bad mistake. I´m also no supporter of Erdogan as a person, but i will never speak against the president.

I want good relations between our nation and russia. The only one who profits from this idiocy (which happened because our mistake) is ISIS. Evryone in the region is pretty nervous. It looks like nobody checked what airplane this was exactly. Which was a mistake.

But i want bring one point here, why we will never accept Assad in power in Syria. And russia pretty much knows they won´t be able to hold him in power if we actively work against it. Assad uses posion gas. Our government has the duty to protect our boarder, property and even more important life.

What if Assad sends an airplane to do a poison gas attack on some boarder city? What then? We all sit down and say: my bad?

Assad and his family clan have no future in syria.

If russia wants an agreement they better find a puppet that can replace him.

The turkmens are not secure under his regime. You either kick Assad out or cut off the turkmen areas and make them part of turkey.

There is no scenario where turkey or any other nation in the region will ever support Assad. Considering the fact, that 80% of syrians are sunni and hate him with passion as well you know where this is going. This is a point totally independend from erdogan. No turkish president will allow Assad to rule over turkmens. Thats the red line.

You can install there whoever you want. And even if you chose Lady Gaga as queen, so be it. But it won´t be Assad.

That area is our crimea. And our people always come first, even before economic interests.

So, let me get this straight, you believe that Turkey has a right to dictate to another country (in this case Syria) that their president and political elites must simply go away? Isn't that highly presumptuous of Turkey? Should it not be the Syrian populations that gets to decide who will be their elected president? The precondition that Assad must go is stupid, untenable and should have been dropped long ago. It's been 4 years now, it's high time to realize that Assad and the system he represents actually has significant popular support. Even Russia does not make such presumptuous statements about the Ukrainian leadership.

In regards to Turkmen: have there been any concerted actions by the Assad government to restrict their cultural practices, religious practices, language, or any other serious ethnic discrimination? The only issues I have been able to find information on are the supposed claims of "ethnic cleansing" by Kurds.  However, this is from Turkish MSM, and based on Turkish (and their proxies) actions against Kurds in Syria, I don't really believe that.

Instead of trying to justify grabbing of land populated by Turkmen, maybe the best option (in order to minimize conflict) is simply coming to an agreement that Syria should remain an undivided state with limited regional autonomy, new egalitarian constitution is adopted, and the people of Syria are free to vote for their president and representative of legislative and executive branches of government. That way, not only the turkmen will enjoy autonomy within Syria, but will also have their political representatives in both parliament and senate of Syria able to guarantee their rights and interests. Additionally, the president+government would now be chosen democratically, so Assad and his cronies can always be kicked from power peacefully. Doesn't that sound so much better than the clusterfuck which might occur if Turkey goes for all-out escalation via military intervention and annexation?

I like democracy. What do you think about the solution to let the turkmen areas make a referendum like on crimea if they want leave syria and push their areas on turkey? Russia created an international tool with this method to solve such conflicts. That way the heat would be out of the oven from our side. The rest of syria could then freely chose its path as you suggested.

Yea, right, lets make referendum now after every Syrian that would vote aganist is either half way fleeing to Western Europe or dead. Kosovo all over again? And no, US created that "solution" with Kosovo and ex Yugoslavia breakdown, Russia is now simply following the example. But funny enough US does not recognise Osettia, Abhazia or Republic of Serbs as possible countries, Kosovo they do, now tell me, what do you think, are they going to support another example that counters them ? Coz of Turks ? Yea, they cant live without you totally.

There was a uk member of the parliament who offered evidences, that behind the chemical weapons using in Syria was Turkish secret service.

Hehe... this TS is getting even more play than Flagship used to. And I mean, really, "Mustafa"??

To Mustafa:

The only reasonable thing you could do now to is apologize to Russia, paid them compensations , and punish all responsible characters for all this banditry .
Also cease support to ALL terrorists groups in Syria .

But your gov does not seem very reasonable,  so you will just feel russian wrath.
In all civilizations treacherous backstabbers are punished very harsh.

Militarov wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

Acheron wrote:

Mustafa wrote:I already said a dozen times it was a bad mistake. I´m also no supporter of Erdogan as a person, but i will never speak against the president.

I want good relations between our nation and russia. The only one who profits from this idiocy (which happened because our mistake) is ISIS. Evryone in the region is pretty nervous. It looks like nobody checked what airplane this was exactly. Which was a mistake.

But i want bring one point here, why we will never accept Assad in power in Syria. And russia pretty much knows they won´t be able to hold him in power if we actively work against it. Assad uses posion gas. Our government has the duty to protect our boarder, property and even more important life.

What if Assad sends an airplane to do a poison gas attack on some boarder city? What then? We all sit down and say: my bad?

Assad and his family clan have no future in syria.

If russia wants an agreement they better find a puppet that can replace him.

The turkmens are not secure under his regime. You either kick Assad out or cut off the turkmen areas and make them part of turkey.

There is no scenario where turkey or any other nation in the region will ever support Assad. Considering the fact, that 80% of syrians are sunni and hate him with passion as well you know where this is going. This is a point totally independend from erdogan. No turkish president will allow Assad to rule over turkmens. Thats the red line.

You can install there whoever you want. And even if you chose Lady Gaga as queen, so be it. But it won´t be Assad.

That area is our crimea. And our people always come first, even before economic interests.

So, let me get this straight, you believe that Turkey has a right to dictate to another country (in this case Syria) that their president and political elites must simply go away? Isn't that highly presumptuous of Turkey? Should it not be the Syrian populations that gets to decide who will be their elected president? The precondition that Assad must go is stupid, untenable and should have been dropped long ago. It's been 4 years now, it's high time to realize that Assad and the system he represents actually has significant popular support. Even Russia does not make such presumptuous statements about the Ukrainian leadership.

In regards to Turkmen: have there been any concerted actions by the Assad government to restrict their cultural practices, religious practices, language, or any other serious ethnic discrimination? The only issues I have been able to find information on are the supposed claims of "ethnic cleansing" by Kurds.  However, this is from Turkish MSM, and based on Turkish (and their proxies) actions against Kurds in Syria, I don't really believe that.

Instead of trying to justify grabbing of land populated by Turkmen, maybe the best option (in order to minimize conflict) is simply coming to an agreement that Syria should remain an undivided state with limited regional autonomy, new egalitarian constitution is adopted, and the people of Syria are free to vote for their president and representative of legislative and executive branches of government. That way, not only the turkmen will enjoy autonomy within Syria, but will also have their political representatives in both parliament and senate of Syria able to guarantee their rights and interests. Additionally, the president+government would now be chosen democratically, so Assad and his cronies can always be kicked from power peacefully. Doesn't that sound so much better than the clusterfuck which might occur if Turkey goes for all-out escalation via military intervention and annexation?

I like democracy. What do you think about the solution to let the turkmen areas make a referendum like on crimea if they want leave syria and push their areas on turkey? Russia created an international tool with this method to solve such conflicts. That way the heat would be out of the oven from our side. The rest of syria could then freely chose its path as you suggested.

Yea, right, lets make referendum now after every Syrian that would vote aganist is either half way fleeing to Western Europe or dead. Kosovo all over again? And no, US created that "solution" with Kosovo and ex Yugoslavia breakdown, Russia is now simply following the example. But funny enough US does not recognise Osettia, Abhazia or Republic of Serbs as possible countries, Kosovo they do, now tell me, what do you think, are they going to support another example that counters them ? Coz of Turks ? Yea, they cant live without you totally.

Why not? Turkmens won´t allow Assad as president over them. Assad is a dead duck. Russia knows this. There is no future for him.

This conflict will end with a compromise. And Assad won´t be part of it

Kadmos45 wrote:To Mustafa:

The only reasonable thing you could do now to is apologize to Russia, paid them compensations , and punish all responsible characters for all this banditry .
Also cease support to ALL terrorists groups in Syria .

But your gov does not seem very reasonable,  so you will just feel russian wrath.
In all civilizations treacherous backstabbers are punished very harsh.

Erdogan has already said that he will not apologise, and that turkey would do the same in future, so he has set down the gauntlet. Shame the idiot doesnt realise its him that will soon be running the gauntlet.

Kadmos45 wrote:To Mustafa:

The only reasonable thing you could do now to is apologize to Russia, paid them compensations , and punish all responsible characters for all this banditry .
Also cease support to ALL terrorists groups in Syria .

But your gov does not seem very reasonable,  so you will just feel russian wrath.
In all civilizations treacherous backstabbers are punished very harsh.

Russian wrath? Because one dead pilot? I didn´t know russian foreign office is run by idiots. Professionals clear this behind closed doors. Evrything else is show.

I promise you, in 2 or 3 weeks nobody will give a shit about this anymore.

Even if the SU-24 crossed into Turkish border for 17 seconds you have no right to shoot him, What if it is a equipment malfunction or emergency situation. Why do you not come up to him to escort the aircraft? Until yesterday you escorted Russian jets when they came near your waters? Fucking Turkish scumbags.

Mustafa wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Mustafa wrote:I already said a dozen times it was a bad mistake. I´m also no supporter of Erdogan as a person, but i will never speak against the president.

I want good relations between our nation and russia. The only one who profits from this idiocy (which happened because our mistake) is ISIS. Evryone in the region is pretty nervous. It looks like nobody checked what airplane this was exactly. Which was a mistake.

But i want bring one point here, why we will never accept Assad in power in Syria. And russia pretty much knows they won´t be able to hold him in power if we actively work against it. Assad uses posion gas. Our government has the duty to protect our boarder, property and even more important life.

What if Assad sends an airplane to do a poison gas attack on some boarder city? What then? We all sit down and say: my bad?

Assad and his family clan have no future in syria.

If russia wants an agreement they better find a puppet that can replace him.

The turkmens are not secure under his regime. You either kick Assad out or cut off the turkmen areas and make them part of turkey.

There is no scenario where turkey or any other nation in the region will ever support Assad. Considering the fact, that 80% of syrians are sunni and hate him with passion as well you know where this is going. This is a point totally independend from erdogan. No turkish president will allow Assad to rule over turkmens. Thats the red line.

You can install there whoever you want. And even if you chose Lady Gaga as queen, so be it. But it won´t be Assad.

That area is our crimea. And our people always come first, even before economic interests.

I don't know anything about this issue - what did Assad do to the Turkmens? Why will they never accept Assad?

I think most Syrians love Assad, otherwise he would have long ago crumbled. Most of the Syrian population is under his rule (~70%). The SAA has plenty of Sunni soldiers and officers.

I hope you realize that what you said about Turkmen and Sunnis in Syria, someone could say about the Kurds in Turkey too. Most of them hate the AKP and Erdogan, and some of those - hate the Turkish state and wish for their own one.

Assad used poison gas on his own people as well as barrel bombs. The turkmens are safe from him because our protection.

Let me ask you something, would you allow that a tyrant who used poison gas on his own people is in charge over some of your people? The russians intervened in crimea for far less than that.

Putin knows this and evryone knows Putin will drop Assad sooner or later. We are in the endgame here. Evry site want to achieve the best outcome for itself. I know that russia must keep that Assad thing running but in the end will drop him.

Just explain me how you will hold syria alive when evry single government around it break off diplomatic relations, keep supporting anti assad groups?

I´m full supporting crushing ISIS, PKK, Al Nusra and all those monsters. But Assad is a red line. There is no scenario where Assad can be accepted from Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, USA, Israel. Its plain and simple impossible.

Shouldn't his people decide that and not a bunch of foreign governments?
We should help them to be able to make a decision about Assad's status in Syria, not make this decision for them.
His opponents deserve protection, but only as long as they do not try to achieve regime change by force, a strategy that is destroying Syria.

Mustafa wrote:

Assad used poison gas on his own people as well as barrel bombs. The turkmens are safe from him because our protection.

Let me ask you something, would you allow that a tyrant who used poison gas on his own people is in charge over some of your people?

Here's the thing:

I don't believe it was Assad who did that poison gas attack.
I have seen zero credible evidence beyond the shrieking accusations of vested interests and those who had openly declared they were trying to get rid of Assad via the use of violence that has caused the deaths of countless of innocent people.

Assad never used gas before. For a few years the meddling scum who were sponsoring the death in Syria had been trying to get "inspectors" to inspect Assads chemical weapons. He reasonably refused, knowing who and what he was dealing with, as well as not least, national security concerns.

When he finally bowed to the pressure being exerted on him by the outside death merchants, the "inspectors" arrived with much fanfare.
Magically, after never having used them before in all the years, he then suddenly "uses" chemical weapons 24 hours after the inspectors arrived, within kilometers of where they were staying, and with immediate blanket media coverage of people choking to death.

My 9 year old daughter could see right through that bullshit.

I'm not saying Assad is this perfect angel, but I'm really confused as to why grown adults can be so gullible, or to be frank, stupid.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

Mustafa wrote:I already said a dozen times it was a bad mistake. I´m also no supporter of Erdogan as a person, but i will never speak against the president.

I want good relations between our nation and russia. The only one who profits from this idiocy (which happened because our mistake) is ISIS. Evryone in the region is pretty nervous. It looks like nobody checked what airplane this was exactly. Which was a mistake.

But i want bring one point here, why we will never accept Assad in power in Syria. And russia pretty much knows they won´t be able to hold him in power if we actively work against it. Assad uses posion gas. Our government has the duty to protect our boarder, property and even more important life.

What if Assad sends an airplane to do a poison gas attack on some boarder city? What then? We all sit down and say: my bad?

Assad and his family clan have no future in syria.

If russia wants an agreement they better find a puppet that can replace him.

The turkmens are not secure under his regime. You either kick Assad out or cut off the turkmen areas and make them part of turkey.

There is no scenario where turkey or any other nation in the region will ever support Assad. Considering the fact, that 80% of syrians are sunni and hate him with passion as well you know where this is going. This is a point totally independend from erdogan. No turkish president will allow Assad to rule over turkmens. Thats the red line.

You can install there whoever you want. And even if you chose Lady Gaga as queen, so be it. But it won´t be Assad.

That area is our crimea. And our people always come first, even before economic interests.

I don't know anything about this issue - what did Assad do to the Turkmens? Why will they never accept Assad?

I think most Syrians love Assad, otherwise he would have long ago crumbled. Most of the Syrian population is under his rule (~70%). The SAA has plenty of Sunni soldiers and officers.

I hope you realize that what you said about Turkmen and Sunnis in Syria, someone could say about the Kurds in Turkey too. Most of them hate the AKP and Erdogan, and some of those - hate the Turkish state and wish for their own one.

Assad used poison gas on his own people as well as barrel bombs. The turkmens are safe from him because our protection.

Let me ask you something, would you allow that a tyrant who used poison gas on his own people is in charge over some of your people? The russians intervened in crimea for far less than that.

Putin knows this and evryone knows Putin will drop Assad sooner or later. We are in the endgame here. Evry site want to achieve the best outcome for itself. I know that russia must keep that Assad thing running but in the end will drop him.

Just explain me how you will hold syria alive when evry single government around it break off diplomatic relations, keep supporting anti assad groups?

I´m full supporting crushing ISIS, PKK, Al Nusra and all those monsters. But Assad is a red line. There is no scenario where Assad can be accepted from Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, USA, Israel. Its plain and simple impossible.

Shouldn't his people decide that and not a bunch of foreign governments?
We should help them to be able to make a decision about Assad's status in Syria, not make this decision for them.
His opponents deserve protection, but only as long as they do not try to achieve regime change by force, a strategy that is destroying Syria.

Thats why i say turkmens should do a referendum. I don´t care if Assad stays in power in syria. What he does to his people is their problem, not ours. But no turkkmen will be left under the mercy of arab facists.

So tell me a solution in this that turkey can accept? You know the red line and you know that reality is that assad wont be accepted by anyone here.

Mustafa wrote:...............................

Don´t worry about Turkmens in northern syria. They won´t end like serbians in kosovo.

Of course they wont, Serbs are still alive. Turkmens on the other hand... lets just say that every trash has expiration date and their's is coming up.

Syria is due for some big housecleaning and vermin needs to be exterminated.

Given the news I would be more concerned for Turkey if I were you. Unlike USA, Russia does not have tradition of giving presidential pardons for Turkey on Thanksgiving Day...  

Kurds say hi...

PapaDragon wrote:

Mustafa wrote:...............................

Don´t worry about Turkmens in northern syria. They won´t end like serbians in kosovo.

Of course they wont, Serbs are still alive. Turkmens on the other hand... lets just say that every trash has expiration date and their's is coming up.

Syria is due for some housecleaning and vermin needs to be exterminated.

Given the news I would be more concerned for Turkey if I  were you. Unlike USA, Russia does not have tradition of giving presidential pardons for Turkey on thanksgiving...  

Kurds say hi...

dude if you think you can anger me you should change your ethnicity. you are a serb. I can´t take you serious.

Mustafa wrote:
Russian wrath? Because one dead pilot? I didn´t know russian foreign office is run by idiots. Professionals clear this behind closed doors. Evrything else is show.

I promise you, in 2 or 3 weeks nobody will give a shit about this anymore.

In the very beginning, Russia tried to do so, eye on eye, behind close doors - while Turkey was trumpeting that it was their F-16 that shot down Russian plane, Russia's official position was that it was shot down from land, read, by rebel fire. it means, they officially didn't put the guilt on Turkey so that it all could cleared between the two countries. Turkey didn't back off with their claims, so then Russia officially changed their position to the actual one, that it was indeed shot down by Turkey.

Mustafa wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Mustafa wrote:...............................

Don´t worry about Turkmens in northern syria. They won´t end like serbians in kosovo.

Of course they wont, Serbs are still alive. Turkmens on the other hand... lets just say that every trash has expiration date and their's is coming up.

Syria is due for some housecleaning and vermin needs to be exterminated.

Given the news I would be more concerned for Turkey if I  were you. Unlike USA, Russia does not have tradition of giving presidential pardons for Turkey on thanksgiving...  

Kurds say hi...

dude if you think you can anger me you should change your ethnicity. you are a serb. I can´t take you serious.

Ohhhh look who's talking.... we are still digging up Turkish skeletons in here. You guys are pretty good fertilizer I give you that much.

[quote="Mustafa"]

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:Thats why i say turkmens should do a referendum. I don´t care if Assad stays in power in syria. What he does to his people is their problem, not ours. But no turkkmen will be left under the mercy of arab facists. 

Turkoman-speakers are very few in Syria, in-homogenous and share the land with the locals. They are not indigenous but rather guest, a leftover of foreign colonial rule of past centuries. The particular area in Laodicea (Jabal al Akrad/Kurd, mistakenly called "al Turkoman") is scattered with nearby Armenian, Kurdish, Alawite and Arab villages. Same with Antiochea which was land-grabbeb by the kemalist regime.

http://syriadirect.org/images/Latakia_Akrad.jpg

If the Erdogan regime doesn't want them to be in danger, he should host them in refugee camps in Turkey proper. The problem for Turkey is that the entire SE part across the border is not inhabited by turkish-cultured people, but rather Kurds and Alawites.

Mustafa wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Mustafa wrote:...............................

Don´t worry about Turkmens in northern syria. They won´t end like serbians in kosovo.

Of course they wont, Serbs are still alive. Turkmens on the other hand... lets just say that every trash has expiration date and their's is coming up.

Syria is due for some housecleaning and vermin needs to be exterminated.

Given the news I would be more concerned for Turkey if I  were you. Unlike USA, Russia does not have tradition of giving presidential pardons for Turkey on thanksgiving...  

Kurds say hi...

dude if you think you can anger me you should change your ethnicity. you are a serb. I can´t take you serious.

"you are a serb. I cant take you serious"

First of all its Serb, capital fkn letter, as second its "seriously". As third, we dont need Turks to take us seriously, totally not one of our lifegoals.

PapaDragon wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Mustafa wrote:...............................

Don´t worry about Turkmens in northern syria. They won´t end like serbians in kosovo.

Of course they wont, Serbs are still alive. Turkmens on the other hand... lets just say that every trash has expiration date and their's is coming up.

Syria is due for some housecleaning and vermin needs to be exterminated.

Given the news I would be more concerned for Turkey if I  were you. Unlike USA, Russia does not have tradition of giving presidential pardons for Turkey on thanksgiving...  

Kurds say hi...

dude if you think you can anger me you should change your ethnicity. you are a serb. I can´t take you serious.

Ohhhh look who's talking.... we are still digging up Turkish skeletons in here. You guys are pretty good fertilizer I give you that much.

Most of them were serbs we took away from their families, reeducated them and made them our soldiers. Not much tears about that.

I can't believe I am going to write this....

...but what the hell has gotten in most of you?

You act and write in the most irrational and illogical way. Let my exemplify this by comparing the outrage and things being said about Turkey and Turks to the level of anti-Russian actions and rhetorics they have displayed.

You literally went full retard over a single plane that was performing bombing runs in a foreign country, while there was less outrage, resolve and hate about all those blatantly anti-Russian rhetorics, actions (more like murders, crimes) over the past year displayed  by the West and Ukraine. A neighbouring, historically Russian land.

You then proceeded to mention all those conflicts of the past between two imperial powers. Yet the fact still remains that Russians themselves killed far more Russians than Turks, and more recently. Should I go on about this topic?

At the same time, we read here about opinions of German and French, or British and US politicans and people, comment them. Well, for starters, all of them were major Russian enemies at one point, and some continued to be to this day. Be it Catholic Church, Napoleon, Drang nach Osten, The Great Game, World Wars, Nazis, Cold War. Speaking of ruthlesness and barbaric crimes and attributing them to Turks while somehow conveniently forgetting that no one came even close to Westerners when it comes to mass murder/genocide, exploitation and conquest.

You speak about Turkey with disgust, label them as terrorist supporters, while practically NATO is in bed with terrorism exporters, funded and equipped original Syrian terrorists (Croatia included, we all remember those cargo planes leaving ladden with weapons). These murderes of Russian pilot were proclaimed moderate by the "friends of Syria", they received western weapons, training and support.

The initial plot was to use media propaganda campaign to brand every single nutjob as democratic opposition, when they failed in that, they quickly invented "moderates", now they are trying to replace IS with "democratic Arab tribal army opposed to IS (?!)". Every single day we heard about West arming "anti-IS" "moderates" yet no one saw them actually fight IS, IF or Al-Nusra.


Of all the people, I can't believe that I, an ardent and convinced anti-Turk, be it Ottomans, Kemalists or Islamists, have to write common sense here.


I guess it is easier to vent on a vasal, poorer and less developed state, than on actual string-pullers, all the while secretly hopping that the West embraces you as part of their culture.
Disgusting.

From Mark Fuc*ing Galeotti of all people...

"Turkey ‘Ambushed’ Russian Su-24 to Protect Terrorists – NYU Professor"

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151126/1030827854/turkey-russia-su-24-erdogan-ambush-galeotti.html

Mustafa wrote:reeducated them and made them our soldiers. Not much tears about that.

So after re-education they breed with your women through islamic marriage and produced what we called "modern Turks"?

SturmGuard wrote:I can't believe I am going to write this....

...but what the hell has gotten in most of you?

You act and write in the most irrational and illogical way. Let my exemplify this by comparing the outrage and things being said about Turkey and Turks to the level of anti-Russian actions and rhetorics they have displayed.

You literally went full retard over a single plane that was performing bombing runs in a foreign country, while there was less outrage, resolve and hate about all those blatantly anti-Russian rhetorics, actions (more like murders, crimes) over the past year displayed  by the West and Ukraine. A neighbouring, historically Russian land.

You then proceeded to mention all those conflicts of the past between two imperial powers. Yet the fact still remains that Russians themselves killed far more Russians than Turks, and more recently. Should I go on about this topic?

At the same time, we read here about opinions of German and French, or British and US politicans and people, comment them. Well, for starters, all of them were major Russian enemies at one point, and some continued to be to this day. Be it Catholic Church, Napoleon, Drang nach Osten, The Great Game, World Wars, Nazis, Cold War. Speaking of ruthlesness and barbaric crimes and attributing them to Turks while somehow conveniently forgetting that no one came even close to Westerners when it comes to mass murder/genocide, exploitation and conquest.

You speak about Turkey with disgust, label them as terrorist supporters, while practically NATO is in bed with terrorism exporters, funded and equipped original Syrian terrorists (Croatia included, we all remember those cargo planes leaving ladden with weapons). These murderes of Russian pilot were proclaimed moderate by the "friends of Syria", they received western weapons, training and support.

The initial plot was to use media propaganda campaign to brand every single nutjob as democratic opposition, when they failed in that, they quickly invented "moderates", now they are trying to replace IS with "democratic Arab tribal army opposed to IS (?!)". Every single day we heard about West arming "anti-IS" "moderates" yet no one saw them actually fight IS, IF or Al-Nusra.


Of all the people, I can't believe that I, an ardent and convinced anti-Turk, be it Ottomans, Kemalists or Islamists, have to write common sense here.


I guess it is easier to went on a vasal, poorer and less developed state, than on actual string-pullers, all the while secretly hopping that the West embraces you as part of their culture.
Disgusting.

Some here look rational and cool. You are one of them. The rest is just some random internet warriors.