Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

If the problem was this particular system, and not the entire ship, why didn't they just build the Kasatonov and the other Gorshkovs and fit them with a substitute SAM until the problems of the redut could be ironed out, instead of never being completed in all those years? I'm talking before the engine embargo.

Because they were making a ship... do you understand?

If you design a ship you actually have no idea it will work perfectly straight away there are lots of very complex components interacting and there will be conflicts where some systems might not work.

That is why they test new built ships instead of just mass producing ships from plans.

These ships are new and the systems on them are new... people who don't know any better claim they are just frigates that they should be pumping out in huge numbers.

These ships have Sigma-M command and communications systems... they are like AEGIS vessels. They will have hypersonic anti ship missiles and 3,000km range land attack missiles and anti sub launched mach 2.5 rocket powered torpedo missiles as standard armament.

They had problems with a few of the new systems... but the new systems are standard... they will be used by all new Russian destroyers, cruisers, carriers, frigates, and corvettes.

Their design is not standardised with previous generation systems... they are new.

You can't just say.... Hmmmm UKSK isn't working... lets just put Granit on it... and Poliment Redut isn't working either... lets just put SA-N-7 on there... the design was for UKSK and the naval S-350 and that is what fits there and that is what will go on all Russian vessels.

Putting different systems in because the design parts aren't working yet wont help getting those new parts working and would require different wiring and design spaces... and you are assuming they would work too when that has not been tested either... what happens if you put Rif on board and find that whatever is stopping Redut from working also stops Rif... you have modified the ship, spent lots of money and ended up still needing time and money to get Redut back in there and working...

The communications and control equipment is designed to allow data sharing of the air, sea, sub sea and space above the vessels. Corvettes firing land attack cruise missiles is just the start... they will be able to share their data with the rest of the navy and vice versa... No NATO corvette even comes close.

There were problems with the gun... no surprise it is a 100mm gun that weighs the same as the previous 76.2mm gun in that class... do that with small arms in your head and you might find a few issues in that sort of design and manufacture challenge.

There were problems with the main SAM... no great surprise there either... the whole system is brand new and relies on all new AESA technology and brand new missiles.

There were also problems making a naval version of TOR.... eventually it was fine.

Now there is an issue with engines and they are working on it.

This is like not producing any more PAK FA prototypes after the first one just because its engines didn't work perfectly from the start.

This is not being able to put engines that were paid for but the maker refuses to deliver into new build aircraft. They would keep making prototypes because things other than the engine can be tested but a new engine would need to be found and the prototypes adapted potentially to the new dimensions of the different engine.

This is a sign of retarded incompetence of the Russian government. Not only did Russia buy critical equipment from not only potentially hostile countries, but countries repeatedly showing warning signs that they'll become more hostile(I'm looking at Yuschenko).

Even Yuschenko didn't see his ousting coming how the hell was Russia supposed to see that the west would orchestrate a coup and civil war in the Ukraine?

Showing signs... wow I bet you are a great manager... you can see the future.

Russia bought engines from the Ukraine and Germany because Germany and the Ukraine MAKE ENGINES AND SELL THEM. If they decided to make their own engines the time scale would be no different than it is now because it would have taken this long to get the designs made and ready for production... in fact it would be worse because they would not have had the engines they have now and would be unable to test anything with nothing in the water... so they would be waiting till 2017 or 2018 for the engines so it would be 2023 before they could have all the tests done and put the first boat into service... yeah... that would be better. NOT.

And even if that weren't the case, Russia always has to develop domestic equipment critical for the construction of vessels ASAP in parallel to buying foreign products.

So all of their current high tech stuff would need to be scrapped and they will have to spend trillions making their own computer hardware? Can't buy it from China or South Korea? I mean they just need their own colour revolution to become hostile to Russia too right?

What Russia was doing the last 2 decades was analogous to the USSR never developing its own aircraft engine industry and instead relying on Nazi supply.

Your ignorance is impressive... the Soviets bought plenty of western technology all during the last century... artillery technology from Germany and France, the Maxim Machine gun, the Dakota transport plane, the christie suspension for tanks, plenty of truck designs were bought and produced in the Soviet Union... why make your own design when you can buy something off the shelf already made and tested and working.

does this mean that also s-350 wont work?

Did the problems with the naval TOR system effect the land based TOR system?

(answer is no).

The TOR system does not operate with hundreds of radar and radio and other EM sources emitting around it within a 100m radius where ever it goes and is on nice firm stable ground... not water.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

GarryB wrote: They were buying engines from Germany and from the Ukraine and both of those fucked up countries stabbed Russia in the back while smiling and claiming to be a friend in the case of Germany... not so in the case of the Ukraine.

This is a sign of retarded incompetence of the Russian government. Not only did Russia buy critical equipment from not only potentially hostile countries, but countries repeatedly showing warning signs that they'll become more hostile(I'm looking at Yuschenko). I don't know if this is liberast naivete or just plain stupidity. And even if that weren't the case, Russia always has to develop domestic equipment critical for the construction of vessels ASAP in parallel to buying foreign products.

What Russia was doing the last 2 decades was analogous to the USSR never developing its own aircraft engine industry and instead relying on Nazi supply.

Meh, another hysterical emotional poster decrying Russian "incompetance"....

FFS, its really quite simple. Russia is undergoing a large-scale rebuild of her military deterrance, and while resources available are very substantial, they are not limitless. It makes little sense to assume worst case scenarios and to pour vast resources into independent manufacture of basic components like diesel or gas turbine engines when the wisdom of the day strongly suggests that foreign supply will be reliable. It was not unreasonable to assume that Germany and Ukraine would remain reliable commercial partners - seriously, who would have expected the feckless EU to prostitite themselves to US neocons in a bid to foster Ultranationalist coup in Ukraine, or that previously solid trading partners liek Germany (with whom trade had been growing strongly) would turn out to be as cowardly as the surrender-monkey French?

Russia did what was sensible and put her resources into the sharp-end capabilities: Pak-FA & Pak-DA, Tu-160M2, Su-30/35, S-400/500 & Tor & Pantsir & Morphei, Borei & Bulava, Yasen, Kalibre & Onyx & Zircon, new generation navy vessels, Armata & Kurganetz & Boomerang, Topol-M, Yars, Object 4202 & Sarmat, Voronezh EW radar network, mobile ECM/ECCM such as Krashua-4, anti-stealth radars such as NEBO-M....

Seriously, WTF will make you people happy????? The Russian armed forces are again a force to be reckoned with, as indicated by the pre-ponderance of flustered red faces in Mordor on the Potomac and the epidemic of high-blood pressure within the Beltway swamp. Yeah sure, the Krauts, Frogs and Ukropistanis have shown their true face, and military procurement plans will shift a little to right as a result, but there are powerful benefits to their behaviour:

1) Putin now has all the ammo he needs to get his public on side as to the true nature of Russias "partners" in the West, and the guts will be ripped out of the 5th-columnist traitors as a result (ie the recent Duma elections).
2) Crimea is again Russian, and there is NOTHING the Eurotrash or their Uh'murikkkan leash-holders can do about short of thermonuclear war.
3) Feckless EU sanctions mean that Putin can now compel Russian industry to lift their game and get local agriculture and manufacturing up to speed. Investors have a guaranteed market for their goods and have a long grace period in which they don't need to compete againste stablished Western competitors, allowing them to establish their brands and grab market share againt the eventual easing of sanctions and re-entry of EU/US goods.
4) Eventually, import substitution in military-critical areas will be complete, and another monkey will be off the Kremlins back, simplying future strategy and decision making.

These are things that Putins government would have found near impossible to do without Yankistani treachery, so the neocon/neolibcons have done Russia a HUGE long term favour. The Yankistani Ruling Elite know this, and the knowledge is driving them insane!!!

It is all new and as I mentioned there are a lot of electronic systems packed in a ship that need to work together... there has been a long history of new stuff being put on board ships only to find things don't work the way they should.

Sometimes you don't find out until it is too late... look at the British experience in the falklands... on paper the Sea Wolf system should have easily dealt with a few Exocets, but they didn't know the Sea Wolf system interfered with their satellite communications.

Who was to know that when they turned off their Sea Wolf CIWS to speak to London that they would be attacked with the one missile type they really needed the Sea Wolf defence missile to defend them from... Sea Dart is fine as long as the threat is not sea skimming... but the Argentines had both Sea Dart and Exocet...

From what I have read here about what works and what does not with Poliment Redut, it seems to me that if the long range missile fails after a few seconds of flight that the missile is not getting target data for a lofted flight profile to get it to its target area... I would assume the missile would not be launched until there is a target lock and track and the fire control solution has been calculated... therefore the missile is being launched but not sent to the intercept area for the terminal phase of the interception to take place.

Could be the datalink or something interfering with that... reportedly the short range missile works (40-60km range) but the long range missile (120-160km) is the one with the problem.

The issue with engines means they have time to sort it out...