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Log inI wonder how close to the Patriot this thing really is...magnumcromagnon wrote:That's an interesting point of view that you put forward guys, seeing how the S-300 is going out of production so giving the Iranians the ability to produce export versions of the S-300 seems like a good idea, I also put out the idea that China obtained blueprints of the Pac-3 SAM from US based Raytheon databases and sold them to Iran:
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Iran Air Defense Systems
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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AlfaT8- Posts : 2489
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Honestly speaking, Iran is obviously trying to copy Russian AD systems and possibly AD doctrine, regardless of the capabilities of these clones like Ra'ad and this Bavar, the fact that they're all shoot-and-scoot systems that can easily deploy and relocate in short time, should be more than enough to make U.S commanders worry, there is nothing they (U.S) hate more then an enemy they can't find or hit, i mean imaging dozens of Zoltán Danis with Buk-M1s and S-300Ps, all thats missing is a SHORAD system similar to Pantsir or Tunguska and they'll be all set. 
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Yeah, they will be shooting at those ducks in the sky!
- That might actually be an advantage, by having lots of models, it is harder for the enemy to keep track of all the systems.
- That might actually be an advantage, by having lots of models, it is harder for the enemy to keep track of all the systems.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2489
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I prefer a larger quantity of few standardized systems, rather then lots of deferent models.Mike E wrote:Yeah, they will be shooting at those ducks in the sky!
- That might actually be an advantage, by having lots of models, it is harder for the enemy to keep track of all the systems.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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As do I... However, with so many systems, the "enemy" won't able to accurately find a certain kind of SAM or whatever... They could send some pilots to check out a SAM located near the border (hypothetical) which has a range of what they think is 50 km, just to have the pilots shoot down 200 km away. - Sort of hard to explain...
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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nemrod wrote:Werewolf wrote:
Well the US has also alot of knowledge of the export models of S-300 from Greece since they have it and are NATO partner.
This is why, untill now I have a strong doubts about the effectiveness of S-300. Nevertheless, the Bavar, and HQ-9 are somewhere better and they could have a significant impact, not enough to deter US attacks, however it could inflict a severe blows to US.
I think the best iranians asset is still their air fleet, chieftly their Mig-29 and F-14, and the Saeqeh, but not enough modern fighters. Iran needs a modern fleet, as for example few hundreds of Su-27. At this moment, and at this moment only, Iran will become a significant power. The air defense does not give enough deterrence as fighters.
Your doubts are unfounded, the S-300's they have on hand are export variants that are 2-3 generations old and they struggled to jam those vary systems (even though they had time to take them apart), mind-you failure to jam those systems even in ideal settings, in exercises designed to showcase "NATO superiority".
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Mike E wrote:Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
Ironically enough NATO had time to pick through the parts and sub-components of S-300's they have on hand, yet NATO an their allied forces (Turkey, Israel) still have time to protest selling S-300's in hotspots, whether it be Cyprus, Iran, or Syria! Benjamin Nitwityahoo with his inflated ego claimed that Israel had the ability in one full-swoop to defeat the S-300's (that was supposed to be) delivered to Syria, only for him to come groveling on his hands and feet to Putin not to sell to Syria.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Mike E wrote:Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
Sure, they got no knowledge when they were sold AN ENTIRE system of S-300V during the 90s either, I am sure.
S-300, a cutting edge mystery. Not.
sepheronx
sepheronx- Posts : 8852
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TR1 wrote:Mike E wrote:Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
Sure, they got no knowledge when they were sold AN ENTIRE system of S-300V during the 90s either, I am sure.
S-300, a cutting edge mystery. Not.
Yes, of an older system. But if you change the electronics and the radar, well, it becomes like a new system becoming hard again for them to test. Even with Greece using the S-300PMU1, they still proved to be very useful against other aircrafts in NATO games.
But the sale would have been just the standard PMU1, and in that case, yeah, they would be able to work extra long to find any faults in the system or ways to bypass it. If they give them S-300VM or other systems, then they would only have a speculation based upon the old S-300V or PMU1.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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TR1 wrote:Mike E wrote:Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
Sure, they got no knowledge when they were sold AN ENTIRE system of S-300V during the 90s either, I am sure.
S-300, a cutting edge mystery. Not.
You of all people should know the difference between a S-300V and something like the S-400 and S-500.
It is old!
sepheronx- Posts : 8852
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Mike E wrote:TR1 wrote:Mike E wrote:Exactly, even if the S-300s (exports) were stripped down and put back together, the West' wouldn't gain any knowledge!
Sure, they got no knowledge when they were sold AN ENTIRE system of S-300V during the 90s either, I am sure.
S-300, a cutting edge mystery. Not.
You of all people should know the difference between a S-300V and something like the S-400 and S-500.
It is old!
Add to the fact, it is old compared to what S-300VM is. But not just old, but using older electronics. They can make minimal changes to the air defense system and it can cause major headachs for anyone, even if they had a test against the old system.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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That too...S-300V =/= S-300V4 either, plus the one they sold was probably downgraded to a certain extent, maybe not though...
sepheronx- Posts : 8852
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Mike E wrote:That too...S-300V =/= S-300V4 either, plus the one they sold was probably downgraded to a certain extent, maybe not though...
Even if not monkey model or anything, it still is different than even S-300VM. Apparently they used the money when selling the S-300V, to develop VM model. So obviously they would make it different enough. Cause any customers whom are not interested in US knowing their secrets, would not want to buy it. And yet Venezuela did, and this is just knowledge that you and I can come up with regarding this.
Never used the system. But I am basing off of what my father tells me of air defense systems and how little changes can make a big difference. He worked for US airforce up at the Dew lines.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Yeah, the difference between the two models is pretty large, and we all know what Moore's law states...
AlfaT8- Posts : 2489
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I get what your trying to say, but for what you just described, requires Iran to standardize the look of these systems, like Russia's doing with the S-300 to 400, they standardized the launch platform, so it will be almost impossible for NATO forces to identify what the system there dealing with, the same must be said about the BUK, TOR and even the Pantsir (S1--->M).Mike E wrote:As do I... However, with so many systems, the "enemy" won't able to accurately find a certain kind of SAM or whatever... They could send some pilots to check out a SAM located near the border (hypothetical) which has a range of what they think is 50 km, just to have the pilots shoot down 200 km away. - Sort of hard to explain...
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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True, and I'd rather see Iran have a standardized system, not to say they ever will...
nemrod- Posts : 839
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magnumcromagnon wrote:That's an interesting point of view that you put forward guys, seeing how the S-300 is going out of production so giving the Iranians the ability to produce export versions of the S-300 seems like a good idea, I also put out the idea that China obtained blueprints of the Pac-3 SAM from US based Raytheon databases and sold them to Iran:
I ignored too Iranians were able to produce the Patriot pac 3.
What does Iran already possess, and we don't know ? SU-27 ?
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Probably not... That being said, Iran has proven themselves to be excellent at reverse-engineering, and it will be interesting to see what they have in store...
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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Iran is joining various regional groups and seems to be ready to benefit from the west pushing Russia away... perhaps a joint venture with Iran for local production of Su-30MKK aircraft to replace their F-14s, with RVV-BD 300km range AAMs offering real teeth.
they liked the MiG-29 and Su-24 so MiG-29M2 and Su-34K (export) could be options.
The Su-34 is optimised for long range strike roles... perhaps they could adopt two versions... a long range strike model to replace their Su-24s and a long range interceptor to replace the F-14s, with MiG-29M2s replacing the old MiG-29s and F-4s and F-5s.
A affordable force that would be rather potent and they could buy a licence to make their own spares and support equipment.
they liked the MiG-29 and Su-24 so MiG-29M2 and Su-34K (export) could be options.
The Su-34 is optimised for long range strike roles... perhaps they could adopt two versions... a long range strike model to replace their Su-24s and a long range interceptor to replace the F-14s, with MiG-29M2s replacing the old MiG-29s and F-4s and F-5s.
A affordable force that would be rather potent and they could buy a licence to make their own spares and support equipment.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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Not bad, not bad at all...GarryB wrote:Iran is joining various regional groups and seems to be ready to benefit from the west pushing Russia away... perhaps a joint venture with Iran for local production of Su-30MKK aircraft to replace their F-14s, with RVV-BD 300km range AAMs offering real teeth.
they liked the MiG-29 and Su-24 so MiG-29M2 and Su-34K (export) could be options.
The Su-34 is optimised for long range strike roles... perhaps they could adopt two versions... a long range strike model to replace their Su-24s and a long range interceptor to replace the F-14s, with MiG-29M2s replacing the old MiG-29s and F-4s and F-5s.
A affordable force that would be rather potent and they could buy a licence to make their own spares and support equipment.
George1- Posts : 18526
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Iran to Unveil New Missile Defense System
Iran will introduce a new missile defense system, capable of shooting down target at the range of more than 200 kilometers.
Tehran plans to introduce a new missile defense system on April 18, on the occasion of the Army Day in Iran, said Brigadier General Farzad Esmayeeli, the commander of the Iranian Air Defense Force, according to Fars News Agency.
Iranian-made missile defense system called the Talash 3, also known as Endeavor-3, is capable of shooting down targets at a range of more than 200 kilometers.
“The capability and might of the Armed Forces, specially Khatam ol-Anbia Air Defense Base, will be displayed to the enemies again and we will once again see tumult among the ill-wishers,” Esmayeeli said.
According to Esmayeeli, Iran already has the safest airspace in the Middle East, with 3,600 locations spots under its control. The country aims to increase the number to 5,000 locations in the future.
The Brigadier General also added that Iran is currently working to launch several new hi-tech radar systems, capable of tracing and identifying small flying objects.
“Arash 2 radar system with the capability of discovering small flying objects which is based on the world’s state-of-the-art technology is one of the latest achievements,” Esmayeeli said.
While tracing enemy drones, Iran also plans to increase the production of its own Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), as the country’s Air Defense Force announced last month. Last November, Iran unveiled its newly developed drone named “Ababil 3” that can fly for eight hours non-stop on the altitude of 4,500 kilometers (15,000 feet).
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150307/1019204800.html#ixzz3TnrivN6m
Iran will introduce a new missile defense system, capable of shooting down target at the range of more than 200 kilometers.
Tehran plans to introduce a new missile defense system on April 18, on the occasion of the Army Day in Iran, said Brigadier General Farzad Esmayeeli, the commander of the Iranian Air Defense Force, according to Fars News Agency.
Iranian-made missile defense system called the Talash 3, also known as Endeavor-3, is capable of shooting down targets at a range of more than 200 kilometers.
“The capability and might of the Armed Forces, specially Khatam ol-Anbia Air Defense Base, will be displayed to the enemies again and we will once again see tumult among the ill-wishers,” Esmayeeli said.
According to Esmayeeli, Iran already has the safest airspace in the Middle East, with 3,600 locations spots under its control. The country aims to increase the number to 5,000 locations in the future.
The Brigadier General also added that Iran is currently working to launch several new hi-tech radar systems, capable of tracing and identifying small flying objects.
“Arash 2 radar system with the capability of discovering small flying objects which is based on the world’s state-of-the-art technology is one of the latest achievements,” Esmayeeli said.
While tracing enemy drones, Iran also plans to increase the production of its own Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), as the country’s Air Defense Force announced last month. Last November, Iran unveiled its newly developed drone named “Ababil 3” that can fly for eight hours non-stop on the altitude of 4,500 kilometers (15,000 feet).
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150307/1019204800.html#ixzz3TnrivN6m
ShahryarHedayatiSHBA- Posts : 421
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Iran to Unveil Long-Range Version of Missile Defense System
Commander of Khatam al-Anbia Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili said the Talash 3 is compatible with long-range missiles and has been integrated with the S-200 missile system.
The senior commander had announced earlier that the domestically-made Talash system is compatible with a varied range of missiles and hits the targets in the low, medium and high altitudes.
According to Esmaili, integration of Talash with the S-200 enables Iranian forces to shoot down “any kind of enemy targets” in the sky.
Tehran has repeatedly stated that its military might is defensive in nature and poses no threat to other countries.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/english/Home/Single/676920
Iran Navy Working on Idigenized Version of Phalanx CIWS: Commander
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Iran’s Navy commander unveiled plans for the manufacturing of a homegrown version of the Phalanx, a close-in weapon system (CIWS) on board military vessels for defense against anti-ship missiles.
“The research work has now started on the Phalanx system to build its Iranian model,” Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari told the Tasnim News Agency.
“The Western type of the Phalanx system is the most advanced one, and the Islamic Republic of Iran will also move to produce that system definitely,” the commander noted.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/english/Home/Single/677110
Commander of Khatam al-Anbia Air Defense Base Brigadier General Farzad Esmaili said the Talash 3 is compatible with long-range missiles and has been integrated with the S-200 missile system.
The senior commander had announced earlier that the domestically-made Talash system is compatible with a varied range of missiles and hits the targets in the low, medium and high altitudes.
According to Esmaili, integration of Talash with the S-200 enables Iranian forces to shoot down “any kind of enemy targets” in the sky.
Tehran has repeatedly stated that its military might is defensive in nature and poses no threat to other countries.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/english/Home/Single/676920
Iran Navy Working on Idigenized Version of Phalanx CIWS: Commander
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Iran’s Navy commander unveiled plans for the manufacturing of a homegrown version of the Phalanx, a close-in weapon system (CIWS) on board military vessels for defense against anti-ship missiles.
“The research work has now started on the Phalanx system to build its Iranian model,” Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari told the Tasnim News Agency.
“The Western type of the Phalanx system is the most advanced one, and the Islamic Republic of Iran will also move to produce that system definitely,” the commander noted.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/english/Home/Single/677110
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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- Post n°124
Iran to Unveil Long-Range Version of Missile Defense System
GarryB Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:42 am
“The Western type of the Phalanx system is the most advanced one, and the Islamic Republic of Iran will also move to produce that system definitely,” the commander noted.
Yeah, I have a problem with that statement... I think even Goalkeeper is better than Phalanx... and the US Navy thinks SeaRAM is better than Phalanx...
If they want a decent CIWS they should talk to the Russians and develop their own production variant of Kashtan-M or a naval version of Pantsir-S1...
I mean both systems are rather more expensive than Phalanx on its own but really they offer performance rather better than a combination of SeaRam and Phalanx, but with more effective ammo in both the gun and missile systems.
max steel- Posts : 2930
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I've heard that an even more advanced version Bavar-373 is in the final stage of development. Can you tell us more on Bavar-373 , is it really comparable to S-300 ? 
The reason russia is supplying s-300 to iran is only to save them from the $4 billion breach of contract law suit in the International Settlement Court.
The reason russia is supplying s-300 to iran is only to save them from the $4 billion breach of contract law suit in the International Settlement Court.