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Interesting that the structure behind the Urans quad isn't just a simple blast deflector but seems to be a more comprehensive structure. Compartment for equipment upgrades perhaps?
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Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4852
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SeigSoloyvov
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3862
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Isos wrote:Too bad they don't share the schema of the inside to see the place taken and free for more weapons.
The place where the UKSK are could hold 2x2 UKSK.
Or they could put 1x12 shtil on the side of the UKSK.
It's also stupid to not use that new radar on the back yor too. It's only half modernized.
This again?? have you been inside the ships?, do you know what are below those decks etc to say they could fit more? no you haven't
If there was room the Russians would have used it, you need to stop looking at images of the outside and going "you could fit more missiles here"
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Isos- Posts : 11589
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I exactly said the opposite...
Russian design bureaus proposed an upgrade with uksk instead of those kh-35 launchers which shows that they don't use all the space.
Russian design bureaus proposed an upgrade with uksk instead of those kh-35 launchers which shows that they don't use all the space.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4852
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Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some people, ships are not designed to be full of empty voids with large letters stencilled over the blueprints, reading "INSERT FUTURE WEAPON SYSTEMS HERE"....
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GarryB- Posts : 40443
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Sadly it can become a focus to see how many missile tubes you can mount on a ship... obviously most believe more is better but there is a cost to cramming extra tubes on a ship...
As time goes on those tubes are going to be even more useful as new systems and weapons are developed to be carried and launched from those tubes, but these new ships are supposed to be multi purpose vessels... they are not arsenal ships and need to perform a variety of roles and missions some of which don't even require any missile tubes.
With new missiles becoming available whose performance is unequalled anywhere even just a few missiles become very potent... but of course over time they wont remain unequalled and numbers will become important again... but the point is that these are long range sea going ships that need endurance and the capacity to carry everything they need for longer trips than around the Med or arctic ocean...
Their size means room for men and food and water supplies as well as a decent load of weapons... adding extra weapons is fine because the older weapon loadout was designed for bigger heavier bulkier weapons that were hard to carry around in large numbers, but the new weapons are much more compact and the new vertical cell launchers are a much more efficient way of carrying large numbers of missiles on bigger ship designs.
Upgrades can reduce the numbers needed to man the vessel which also means less space is needed for people and less food and water is needed, but rather than take that space up with more missiles it actually makes more sense to use that extra space for more comfortable living spaces and more food and water and supplies per man to make time on board more tolerable and indeed comfortable.
Short of WWIII the likelyhood of a Russian ship running out of weapons in an incident is rather unlikely... they tend to be rather better armed than their HATO equivalents.
These are stopgap upgrades, they will be replaced much sooner than most ships of their size and type anyway... especially the destroyers... and weren't the upgraded Udaloys being designated Frigates anyway... suggests a less than global operational role for them to me.
True, but to be fair these are not just assault rifle type weapons... the crew of the ship have to be able to live inside these things for months at a time so it can't all just be wall to wall weapons and sensors.
As time goes on those tubes are going to be even more useful as new systems and weapons are developed to be carried and launched from those tubes, but these new ships are supposed to be multi purpose vessels... they are not arsenal ships and need to perform a variety of roles and missions some of which don't even require any missile tubes.
With new missiles becoming available whose performance is unequalled anywhere even just a few missiles become very potent... but of course over time they wont remain unequalled and numbers will become important again... but the point is that these are long range sea going ships that need endurance and the capacity to carry everything they need for longer trips than around the Med or arctic ocean...
Their size means room for men and food and water supplies as well as a decent load of weapons... adding extra weapons is fine because the older weapon loadout was designed for bigger heavier bulkier weapons that were hard to carry around in large numbers, but the new weapons are much more compact and the new vertical cell launchers are a much more efficient way of carrying large numbers of missiles on bigger ship designs.
Upgrades can reduce the numbers needed to man the vessel which also means less space is needed for people and less food and water is needed, but rather than take that space up with more missiles it actually makes more sense to use that extra space for more comfortable living spaces and more food and water and supplies per man to make time on board more tolerable and indeed comfortable.
Short of WWIII the likelyhood of a Russian ship running out of weapons in an incident is rather unlikely... they tend to be rather better armed than their HATO equivalents.
These are stopgap upgrades, they will be replaced much sooner than most ships of their size and type anyway... especially the destroyers... and weren't the upgraded Udaloys being designated Frigates anyway... suggests a less than global operational role for them to me.
Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some people, ships are not designed to be full of empty voids with large letters stencilled over the blueprints, reading "INSERT FUTURE WEAPON SYSTEMS HERE"....
True, but to be fair these are not just assault rifle type weapons... the crew of the ship have to be able to live inside these things for months at a time so it can't all just be wall to wall weapons and sensors.
mnztr- Posts : 2888
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Those ships are really smoky, I was wondering after reading that article if this is deliberate, run the turbines more rich to lower the temps and extend engine life....
George1- Posts : 18497
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Large anti-submarine ship (BOD) "Admiral Kharlamov" removed from the Northern fleet and will be prepared for disposal. This is reported by TASS with reference to a source in the shipbuilding industry.
https://en.topwar.ru/177697-bpk-admiral-harlamov-proekta-1155-vyveden-iz-sostava-severnogo-flota.html
https://en.topwar.ru/177697-bpk-admiral-harlamov-proekta-1155-vyveden-iz-sostava-severnogo-flota.html
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mnztr- Posts : 2888
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George1 wrote:Large anti-submarine ship (BOD) "Admiral Kharlamov" removed from the Northern fleet and will be prepared for disposal. This is reported by TASS with reference to a source in the shipbuilding industry.
https://en.topwar.ru/177697-bpk-admiral-harlamov-proekta-1155-vyveden-iz-sostava-severnogo-flota.html
Just over 10 years of operational service, I guess heavily cannibalized so not repairable with lack of engine parts availablity from Ukraine.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2636
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It was actually one of the "youngest" Udaloy class, but apparently it was in worse state than others and as other users already pointed out many of the parts were cannibalized while it was in reserve to keep other ships in service.mnztr wrote:George1 wrote:Large anti-submarine ship (BOD) "Admiral Kharlamov" removed from the Northern fleet and will be prepared for disposal. This is reported by TASS with reference to a source in the shipbuilding industry.
https://en.topwar.ru/177697-bpk-admiral-harlamov-proekta-1155-vyveden-iz-sostava-severnogo-flota.html
Just over 10 years of operational service, I guess heavily cannibalized so not repairable with lack of engine parts availablity from Ukraine.
Actually the kind of modernisation like Marshall Shaposhnikov can be sometimes more complicated that building a new ship, because of the removal of the old equipment, the check or overhaul or old systems and power plants and the lack of space where you need for new systems. In the case of the better conserved ships it may be worth, but not always.
Also because building a hull is the simplest thing in the realisation of a warship, as long as you have a proper shipyard available. Furthermore now they should be completely self sufficient for the construction of gas turbine power plants (the gas turbine engine and the reduction gears).
Hopefully a project 22350 or 22350M named Admiral Kharlamov will be laid down soon!
mnztr- Posts : 2888
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They can make NEW gas turbines, but I highly doubt they can easily make parts for those old turbines.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2636
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They can't, but the engines on the udaloys tare not needed for Gorshkov or Gorshkov M.mnztr wrote:They can make NEW gas turbines, but I highly doubt they can easily make parts for those old turbines.
mnztr- Posts : 2888
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
They can't, but the engines on the udaloys tare not needed for Gorshkov or Gorshkov M.
Nothing to do with those, I am talking about parts for the Udaloy class which they are modernizing
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2636
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Of course, I thought you were referring to my post.mnztr wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
They can't, but the engines on the udaloys tare not needed for Gorshkov or Gorshkov M.
Nothing to do with those, I am talking about parts for the Udaloy class which they are modernizing
Maybe they can repair them and have some spares available for the most degraded bits (or could obtain them indirectly from Zorya) , but of course it cannot be done indefinitely. It is simply not worth.
I meant that insh the time needed to modernise it, they can build a Gorshkov class frigate. I know that it would be done at a different shipyard than the one that would do the modernisation work, but every ship (even new ships a couple of years old) require time in a shipyard every now and then, and the resources and availability at Russian ship repair yards are not infinite). Keeping a drydock occupied for 2 or 3 years by Admiral Kharlamov would actually reduce the fleet availability.
mnztr- Posts : 2888
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Of course, I thought you were referring to my post.
Maybe they can repair them and have some spares available for the most degraded bits (or could obtain them indirectly from Zorya) , but of course it cannot be done indefinitely. It is simply not worth.
I meant that insh the time needed to modernise it, they can build a Gorshkov class frigate. I know that it would be done at a different shipyard than the one that would do the modernisation work, but every ship (even new ships a couple of years old) require time in a shipyard every now and then, and the resources and availability at Russian ship repair yards are not infinite). Keeping a drydock occupied for 2 or 3 years by Admiral Kharlamov would actually reduce the fleet availability.
I was questioning that myself. They took a long time to mod the first ship (which is somewhat understandable as the mod spec needs too be developed, integrated and tested) then they said they would mod the rest of the ships. Now this is clearly not the case. So will they do 6 ships? Any more ships? who knows. I guess it depends on how the trials go but those are very old engines with a lack of spares at this point so I question the wisdom.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2636
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in theory yes, the mod specs have been tested for the other modernized Udaloy. The only problem is that the condition of each old ship is different, and one ship may require much more repair work and /or other systems completely removed. In such case it can became a different project for each ship you want to modernise.mnztr wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Of course, I thought you were referring to my post.
Maybe they can repair them and have some spares available for the most degraded bits (or could obtain them indirectly from Zorya) , but of course it cannot be done indefinitely. It is simply not worth.
I meant that insh the time needed to modernise it, they can build a Gorshkov class frigate. I know that it would be done at a different shipyard than the one that would do the modernisation work, but every ship (even new ships a couple of years old) require time in a shipyard every now and then, and the resources and availability at Russian ship repair yards are not infinite). Keeping a drydock occupied for 2 or 3 years by Admiral Kharlamov would actually reduce the fleet availability.
I was questioning that myself. They took a long time to mod the first ship (which is somewhat understandable as the mod spec needs too be developed, integrated and tested) then they said they would mod the rest of the ships. Now this is clearly not the case. So will they do 6 ships? Any more ships? who knows. I guess it depends on how the trials go but those are very old engines with a lack of spares at this point so I question the wisdom.
Unfortunately it is much less straightforward task than modernising a T72 tank
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GarryB- Posts : 40443
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They can make NEW gas turbines, but I highly doubt they can easily make parts for those old turbines.
But that is the problem... there is no point in making new parts for obsolete turbine designs, and developing new gas turbines is not cheap or quick... the end game is going to be corvettes and frigates with conventional engines but their new destroyers and cruisers might use NPPs for which new gas turbines are not needed.
Making new GTs for Frigates makes sense and the idea of some enlarged frigates with double sets of GTs that are paired where you use one set for normal operations and both sets for high speed activity makes sense, but it is likely their new destroyers and cruisers might have GTs for emergency power generation but NPPs for normal operations... so making specific new GTs for upgrading old ships in addition to the other ones they want is probably not a good use of time and money.
They had a few Udaloys so the worn out ones don't need to be saved...
Now this is clearly not the case. So will they do 6 ships? Any more ships? who knows. I guess it depends on how the trials go but those are very old engines with a lack of spares at this point so I question the wisdom.
I would qualify all of them with the proviso all the ones worth saving. If there is a problem with the ship it might be more trouble than it is worth to try to save... scrapping it means more parts for the parts pool and less engines to keep running operationally...
I suspect some parts could be made if they are high wear to keep them going but longer term I think the upgraded Udaloys would be better replaced with new ships...
mnztr- Posts : 2888
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Perhaps that is the logical way to make nuclear powered destroyers cost effectively. They can use the 4 mw ATGU they are working on for subs and other applications. 2 or 3 of these can probably provide all the electical power to operate a destoryer as well as cruise at 15 knots and give them unlimited range. In battle mode the turbines fire up. and you have 35 knots. They can even fit this into a covette or sub. (no GT in the sub of course, but a large bank of batteries.)
walle83- Posts : 976
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So at present its 5 Udaloys in service? 2 with the Northen Fleet and 3 with the Pacific?
Isos- Posts : 11589
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walle83 wrote:So at present its 5 Udaloys in service? 2 with the Northen Fleet and 3 with the Pacific?
They are in desperate need for Gorshkov frigates if true.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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Isos wrote:walle83 wrote:So at present its 5 Udaloys in service? 2 with the Northen Fleet and 3 with the Pacific?
They are in desperate need for Gorshkov frigates if true.
They have been desperate for Gorshkovs for at least last decade
franco- Posts : 7035
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walle83 wrote:So at present its 5 Udaloys in service? 2 with the Northen Fleet and 3 with the Pacific?
I think 3 + 3 plus one about to return from overhaul while another is under overhaul.
LMFS- Posts : 5147
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About the modernization of the Vinogradov
https://iz.ru/1097835/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/udaloi-fregat-tikhookeanskie-rubezhi-zashchitit-korabl-s-tcirkonami
https://iz.ru/1097835/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm/udaloi-fregat-tikhookeanskie-rubezhi-zashchitit-korabl-s-tcirkonami
GarryB- Posts : 40443
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According to the article above:
So four in the Pacific Fleet and three in the Northern Fleet and one at the repair plant...
Now the Navy has eight ships of project 1155. "Marshal Shaposhnikov", "Admiral Vinogradov", "Admiral Panteleev" and "Admiral Tributs" are part of the Pacific fleet. "Vice Admiral Kulakov", "Severomorsk" and "Admiral Levchenko" are assigned to the Northern fleet. "Admiral Kharlamov" is in the sump. And "Admiral Chabanenko" - improved project 1155.1 - at the ship repair plant.
So four in the Pacific Fleet and three in the Northern Fleet and one at the repair plant...
franco- Posts : 7035
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"Marshal Shaposhnikov" ,which is the newly upgraded ship, is still undergoing testing in the Pacific. So technically it too is still in the shop.
walle83- Posts : 976
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Admiral Levchenko is in reserv accourding to some sources.