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Also keep in mind that Russian Navy version of Uran has swarm mode same as Granit or Onyx so that's swarm of 16 missiles coming at you from Udaloi-II
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Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Also keep in mind that Russian Navy version of Uran has swarm mode same as Granit or Onyx so that's swarm of 16 missiles coming at you from Udaloi-II
GarryB, Big_Gazza, TMA1 and Mir like this post
ALAMO- Posts : 7439
Points : 7529
Join date : 2014-11-25
PapaDragon wrote:
Also keep in mind that Russian Navy version of Uran has swarm mode same as Granit or Onyx so that's swarm of 16 missiles coming at you from Udaloi-II
Not only that.
The Harpoon pattern of flight is straight ahead towards it's target, and the highest sophistication it can present is making a jump&attack from the angle while descending.
Ch-35 shoot in salvos is preprogrammed for a different approach to the target, maneuver, change the path&altitude, and the salvo communicates itself and adjusts the flight path to attack from multiple directions at the same time. They even share the aiming points together, so a salvo can be distributed in a way that some attack engine room, the others weapon or radar systems, etc.
This is a part that Murikans don't get, and won't get, because of the applied stupidity that spoils their minds.
Russkies mastered ASM warfare for 70 years and were always not a step, but a jump ahead. Now they represent not a generation, not two generations ahead, but some fucking quantum jump. The missiles with the parameters of NATO actual ASM systems they mastered 50 (!) years ago, and advance steadily a generation after a generation.
They are REALLY wanking that the next-gen of missiles will fly in salvos
and maneuver Can you imagine presenting something obvious for the Soviet naval strategist in the 60s as an advance?
But they do, and mean it!!GarryB, Arrow, magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, Hole, Mir, Broski and like this post
GarryB- Posts : 40439
Points : 40939
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I am not saying they should keep the Metel launchers at all. I am saying they probably won't use the Medvedka ASW missiles - as you suggested
And I am saying even the original Udaloy used Metel missiles... the later models had IR backup guidance for hitting ships as well as subs... the rocket that carried the torpedo to the location of the Submarine target also included a 300kg HE warhead so when a ship was the target it did not drop the torpedo and the combined 300kg missile warhead together with the torpedo warhead would be sufficient to deal with ships as well as subs. When subs were attacked the warhead and IR seeker on the carrier portion had no function.
Even the Udaloy was multifunction and could defend itself from enemy surface ships.
The new build ships and upgraded ships are all intended to be fully multirole, and I don't agree that the upgraded Udaloys will be anti sub only.
Even a corvette with a UKSK launcher can carry anti sub weapons, what it lacks is a decent Sonar because of its size even though it will have a helicopter able to perform the role an upgraded Udaloy together with corvettes would be excellent at hunting subs, but equally could be loaded with anti ship missiles or land attack missiles and perform a range of missions either with other ships or on its own.
In terms of air defence like a frigate or a corvette it is really only intended to defend itself, though a grouping of corvettes and/or frigates could work together and form a rather good defenceive group, a destroyer or cruiser is intended to defend itself and provide air defence for other ships nearby.
- as they are meant for small patrol boats.
And I am saying Uran was meant for small patrol boats too because at the time the alternative standard anti ship missiles were enormous... these days they are smaller and can be carried by small corvettes and patrol boats.
Despite being reclassified as frigates, the Udaloy frigates are still considered to be principal ships and will be armed as principal ships.
All their new ships and upgraded old ships are multirole now.
The days of dedicated ship types are over because of the unification of attack missiles into semi unified launchers.
They can also launch the RPK-6 Vodopad ASW missile from their 533mm torpedo tubes.
The 91ER1 and 91ER2 are torpedo tube and vertical launcher capable missiles... both are 533mm calibre, but the 91ER2 is designed for the UKSK launcher on ships and subs, while the 91ER1 is for launching from torpedo tubes in subs and on ships.
The Otvet is replacing the 91ER2... I don't know a lot about it other than its torpedo has a range of 20km which is about double the range of the old torpedo used... not sure if there are two model Otvets or they will keep using the 91ER1 from torpedo tubes.
Together with the two helicopters they will have a formidable long range ASW capability.
It already had an excellent sonar system so I would expect it would be upgraded and likely be a new system they will fit to their new Destroyers to make them fully multirole anti sub capable...
Being fitted with the UKSK launchers (probably UKSK-M) gives them even more options and can easily use Tsirkon and Oniks missiles if required. But as Big_Gazza suggested those new missile launcher fittings on the Chabanenko could be for something far more sinister! Smile
There are two mounts on either side and the article said the Uran load out has been doubled from the previous 8 missiles (one quad launcher on each side) to 16 missiles (presumably two quad launchers on each side)... which explains the two launch mounts...
The Harpoon pattern of flight is straight ahead towards it's target, and the highest sophistication it can present is making a jump&attack from the angle while descending.
Ch-35 shoot in salvos is preprogrammed for a different approach to the target, maneuver, change the path&altitude, and the salvo communicates itself and adjusts the flight path to attack from multiple directions at the same time. They even share the aiming points together, so a salvo can be distributed in a way that some attack engine room, the others weapon or radar systems, etc.
The amusing thing is that the Americans go on about how their carriers are impossible to find because they don't turn on their radar.... the wolf pack attack method of Soviet and Russian attack missiles means only one missile uses its radar to scan for targets and passes on target data to other missiles flying in radio silence so the fleet will detect one missile via radar and datalink emissions... even if they shoot it down the missiles will send up a replacement, but that replacement missile and all the other missiles in the attack don't need to scan for targets again... they already know what they are attacking and will attack in radar silence till they get very close... their operational height is reported to be between 2 and 3 metres above the wave crests... it is one of the reasons the naval Pantsir-M is required to hit targets as low as 2m above the water with missiles...
Last edited by GarryB on Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Mir- Posts : 3763
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Join date : 2021-06-10
@GaryB
Diverting and dodging again
The conversation is not about the Metel - it is about you suggesting that they might use the Medvedka ASW missile on the angled missile launchers in the upgraded Udaloys - which is highly unlikely in my opinion as there are much better options available.
As far as the Uran missile goes it it can be launched from helicopters , small missile boats and even from coastal missile batteries. However they are are also used on much larger ships like the Delhi class destroyers from India and The Neustrashimmy frigates etc. It won't be unusual for a ship like the Udaloy to have these missiles installed - besides they can use other SSM's from the UKSK launchers as well.
And I am saying even the original Udaloy used Metel missiles...
Diverting and dodging again
The conversation is not about the Metel - it is about you suggesting that they might use the Medvedka ASW missile on the angled missile launchers in the upgraded Udaloys - which is highly unlikely in my opinion as there are much better options available.
As far as the Uran missile goes it it can be launched from helicopters , small missile boats and even from coastal missile batteries. However they are are also used on much larger ships like the Delhi class destroyers from India and The Neustrashimmy frigates etc. It won't be unusual for a ship like the Udaloy to have these missiles installed - besides they can use other SSM's from the UKSK launchers as well.
ALAMO- Posts : 7439
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Uran is still better than anything that NATO can confront with it, so there is no point in this discussion either.
Czabanenko is in the last stage of outfitting, the tactical numbers are already being painted on the hull, and we can clearly see the double angeled Uran locations at each side of the hull, bringing the missile number to 16.
As we can guess, Klinok is still there :
The only space I consider able to fit the USKS, is behind the main gun - there is a part of the upper deck with no systems on it.
Czabanenko is in the last stage of outfitting, the tactical numbers are already being painted on the hull, and we can clearly see the double angeled Uran locations at each side of the hull, bringing the missile number to 16.
As we can guess, Klinok is still there :
The only space I consider able to fit the USKS, is behind the main gun - there is a part of the upper deck with no systems on it.
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Mir- Posts : 3763
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Join date : 2021-06-10
The only space I consider able to fit the USKS, is behind the main gun - there is a part of the upper deck with no systems on it.
I would be surprised if the USKS launchers are not installed there. It took a while to get going on the ship but things are moving nicely now.
GarryB- Posts : 40439
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Diverting and dodging again
What are you talking about?
I am explaining my reasoning... some members were suggesting that the upgraded Udaloys are just going to continue their original missions... well that was anti sub... and I pointed out that Urans are of no value for a dedicated anti sub ship and that if it was a dedicated anti sub ship that Medvedka anti sub missiles would be better suited in the limited space available where they are clearly putting Uran launchers.
You claimed that is silly because Medvedka missiles are for small ships only, and I replied that they are compact systems for smaller ships just like teh Uran are compact anti ship missiles for smaller vessels too... the presence of the Urans suggest they had a small space and they wanted to use that space with something useful... and again... if the purpose of the ship is anti sub dedicated frigate then Medvedevka would make more sense than Uran.
The fact that they are fitting Uran and doubling the load they put on the previously upgraded ship suggests to me that it is a fully multirole ship that wont be a dedicated anti sub ship.
The conversation is not about the Metel - it is about you suggesting that they might use the Medvedka ASW missile on the angled missile launchers in the upgraded Udaloys - which is highly unlikely in my opinion as there are much better options available.
Metel is obsolete, putting Uran on the ships shows it is considered a multifunction ship rather than an anti sub ship now.
My mentioning Medvedka was evidence that there were anti sub options and the fact that they didn't choose those anti sub dedicated options shows they weren't going for a dedicated anti sub upgrade.
The only space I consider able to fit the USKS, is behind the main gun - there is a part of the upper deck with no systems on it.
That is where they put the two UKSK launchers on the previous one they upgraded... but only two Uran launchers in total, so doubling the Urans is a definite improvement.
I would be surprised if the USKS launchers are not installed there. It took a while to get going on the ship but things are moving nicely now.
It is the only place with the depth to fit them...
Mir- Posts : 3763
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@GaryB
Well that is exactly the point of my argument. To repeat myself - they will not install the Medvedka on those launcher as they are meant for patrol boats and corvettes with ASW capability. Not so with the Uran as they have been fitted on various classes of ships - not just small patrol boats as you claim. They will use the The 91RT2 missiles and the Vodopad for long range ASW instead.
The Udaloy's have always been "multirole" but with an orientation towards ASW. As you know the Metel was dual capable with one type missile with a seeker and a separate warhead for anti-shipping missions out to 90kms. The other type was guided by a radio signal and had a separate torpedo slung underneath. This configuration was used against submarines and surface ships out to 50kms. If the radio signal was jammed the missile continued on auto.
The Udaloys have now been reclassified as Frigates. Same story they are multirole ships with an ASW orientation. The only difference is that they will be far more capable ships than before. Even the loss of the Mach 3 missiles on the Chabanenko is no biggie as they can use Kalibr missiles in the UKSK launchers - not to mention the Tsirkon and Kalibr-M'!
if the purpose of the ship is anti sub dedicated frigate then Medvedevka would make more sense than Uran.
Well that is exactly the point of my argument. To repeat myself - they will not install the Medvedka on those launcher as they are meant for patrol boats and corvettes with ASW capability. Not so with the Uran as they have been fitted on various classes of ships - not just small patrol boats as you claim. They will use the The 91RT2 missiles and the Vodopad for long range ASW instead.
The Udaloy's have always been "multirole" but with an orientation towards ASW. As you know the Metel was dual capable with one type missile with a seeker and a separate warhead for anti-shipping missions out to 90kms. The other type was guided by a radio signal and had a separate torpedo slung underneath. This configuration was used against submarines and surface ships out to 50kms. If the radio signal was jammed the missile continued on auto.
The Udaloys have now been reclassified as Frigates. Same story they are multirole ships with an ASW orientation. The only difference is that they will be far more capable ships than before. Even the loss of the Mach 3 missiles on the Chabanenko is no biggie as they can use Kalibr missiles in the UKSK launchers - not to mention the Tsirkon and Kalibr-M'!
GarryB- Posts : 40439
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Well that is exactly the point of my argument. To repeat myself - they will not install the Medvedka on those launcher as they are meant for patrol boats and corvettes with ASW capability. Not so with the Uran as they have been fitted on various classes of ships - not just small patrol boats as you claim. They will use the The 91RT2 missiles and the Vodopad for long range ASW instead.
The Uran is used on patrol boats and larger boats because it is a relatively compact system that can simply be mounted on any free deck space... including between superstructures on a ship firing sideways... it is a small compact weapon system with good range and is quite useful in that it can be used against land and sea targets and it is relatively cheap.
Medvedka is also small and relatively cheap but is really only useful against submarines over relatively short distances.
The ships that mostly got Urans lost their primary anti ship missile weapon so the Uran was a small cheap replacement... the Metel, as shown in your photo, comes in two primary models with one having an IR seeker on the upper portion of the weapon for use against enemy shipping, so in this case the Uran essentially replaces the Metel in the anti ship role, while the UKSK tubes allows up to 16 other weapons to be carried that could be anti sub like Otvet or the older 91ER2 for anti sub use but also anti ship and land attack weapons as well because it is no longer a dedicated anti sub ship, but a fully multirole frigate.
Those complaining about the lack of anti sub performance of some of the corvettes they have developed should look at these ships which likely have excellent bow sonar systems, and dipping sonar... these upgraded ships with Corvettes with UKSK launchers that could carry anti sub missiles would be an excellent force to hunt submarines... the corvettes with dipping sonar and helicopters too would be very potent even if they didn't have bow mounted sonar systems.
The Udaloy's have always been "multirole" but with an orientation towards ASW
No... the anti ship capability of the Metel was for self defence only... they were anti sub ships only.
As you know the Metel was dual capable with one type missile with a seeker and a separate warhead for anti-shipping missions out to 90kms.
Your photo reveals only half the missiles had anti ship capability while all 8 ready to launch missiles could attack sub targets with the torpedo slung under the rocket upper portion.
The other type was guided by a radio signal and had a separate torpedo slung underneath.
Both missiles carried torpedos and both could be used against subs, but one type could also be used against ships with passive IR homing.
When attacking a ship target the 300kg warhead in the torpedo carrier together with the warhead of the torpedo and the torpedos fuel would be pretty effective against most ship targets. When attacking a sub the torpedo is released near the location of the target and the torpedo carrier just flys into the water and has no purpose.
The missiles with IR sensors were more expensive but enabled the Ships to defend themselves from enemy ships.
The Udaloys have now been reclassified as Frigates. Same story they are multirole ships with an ASW orientation.
All new and upgraded Russian ships are now actually multirole... previously with Soviet ships the only vessels that could defend themselves and other ships would be their cruisers which were multirole because of their size and variety of weapons...
The only difference is that they will be far more capable ships than before.
With two UKSK launcher and 16 Urans replacing 8 Metels the attack power has massively increased and diversified, but the hopeful upgrade of Kinzhal and addition of Pantsir means the air defence is still largely self defence and is what makes this a frigate rather than a destroyer. despite its size.
Mir- Posts : 3763
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@GaryB
Just a quick note on the Uran - which I see you now acknowledge that it can be used on large ships as well
In Soviet times the missile was not only fitted and tested on the East German Sassnitz small missile boats, but the Kashin class destroyer Smetlivy, was set to be used as a trails ship for the Uran missile in the Soviet Navy as well. She was already fitted out with the launch rails but was laid up for repairs in 1990 - only to receive the missiles in 1995 in Russian Navy colours!
My understanding of the Metel is a bit different from yours. The Metel missile had a long history and initially entered service in the early 70's as the Metel/Rastrub ASW missile system. It was already dual capable at this time. The missile system was modernized in the late 70's into what became known as the Rastrub B and entered service in the 80's. Most Western observers believed it was a pure ASW missile system but there were a couple that believed it to be dual capable.
As it turned out the missile is capable of hitting both surface ships and submarines. To defeat surface ships, the missile has a homing head and an increased combat load (additional 185kg warhead + the torpedo) in order to ensure a kill on a large surface ship. The defeat of submarines is carried out by a homing torpedo, which the missile drops in a given area. It can also be armed with a depth charge.
In ASW mode the missile flies towards the target at a height of 400m (some say 600-800m) whilst in anti-shipping mode the missile flies towards the target at 15-20m.
With the Metel being dual role - automatically gives the Udaloy a multirole capability, but as I've said already these ships are ASW orientated.
Just a quick note on the Uran - which I see you now acknowledge that it can be used on large ships as well
In Soviet times the missile was not only fitted and tested on the East German Sassnitz small missile boats, but the Kashin class destroyer Smetlivy, was set to be used as a trails ship for the Uran missile in the Soviet Navy as well. She was already fitted out with the launch rails but was laid up for repairs in 1990 - only to receive the missiles in 1995 in Russian Navy colours!
My understanding of the Metel is a bit different from yours. The Metel missile had a long history and initially entered service in the early 70's as the Metel/Rastrub ASW missile system. It was already dual capable at this time. The missile system was modernized in the late 70's into what became known as the Rastrub B and entered service in the 80's. Most Western observers believed it was a pure ASW missile system but there were a couple that believed it to be dual capable.
As it turned out the missile is capable of hitting both surface ships and submarines. To defeat surface ships, the missile has a homing head and an increased combat load (additional 185kg warhead + the torpedo) in order to ensure a kill on a large surface ship. The defeat of submarines is carried out by a homing torpedo, which the missile drops in a given area. It can also be armed with a depth charge.
In ASW mode the missile flies towards the target at a height of 400m (some say 600-800m) whilst in anti-shipping mode the missile flies towards the target at 15-20m.
With the Metel being dual role - automatically gives the Udaloy a multirole capability, but as I've said already these ships are ASW orientated.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
Chabanenko, Vinogradov, modernization is planned for Admiral Tributs and Admiral Panteleev and something about mighty Nakhimov.
Strike "Admiral": Russia will receive a new carrier of cruise missiles
MOSCOW, January 13 - RIA Novosti, Andrey Kots. Powerful weapons, modern electronics and improved seaworthiness: details of the modernization of the large anti-submarine ship "Admiral Chabanenko" have been revealed. After repairs, the veteran of the Northern Fleet will become a truly "universal fighter" and will be able to destroy any land and sea targets. Updates await other pennants of the same type.
More missiles
"Admiral Chabanenko" is the only representative of the improved project 1155.1. His older brothers - BOD type 1155 - were the most numerous Soviet ships of the first rank. The series turned out to be extremely successful: excellent driving performance, anti-submarine weapons, two Ka-27PL helicopters at once in deck hangars. Among the disadvantages: there is no anti-ship weapon and weak air defense. Now in the fleet there are seven such BODs - the main ships of the far sea zone. However, in 2014, it was sent for repairs, which eventually grew into a deep modernization.
According to a source in the defense industry, it is primarily about weapons. In particular, "Chabanenko" will receive four quadruple rocket launchers "Uran" and a universal ship complex ZS14 with 16 cells for "Caliber", "Onyx" and promising "Zircons", which shoot much farther than "Mosquitoes" and more accurately.
In total, the updated BOD will be able to take on board 32 cruise missiles. This, of course, falls short of the American destroyers "Arleigh Burke", which are similar to the "Chabanenko" in displacement, but significantly more than other pennants of the Northern Fleet.
New opportunities
The modernization program includes not only Chabanenko, but also Project 1155 ships. So, in April 2021, the frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov arrived in the Pacific Fleet after a five-year repair. It replaced 80 percent of the cable routes, re-fabricated about 40 percent of the hull structures, installed the modern MR-760 Fregat-MA radar station and the 5P-30N2 Fregat-H2 information processing system. The ship was equipped with the R-779-28 communications complex, and the artillery fire is now controlled by the MP-123-02 / 3 "Bagheera" universal system.
It was decided not to dismantle four AK-630M anti-aircraft guns, two four-tube torpedo tubes and two RBU-6000 rocket launchers. The Kinzhal air defense missile systems also remained in the bow. Behind them, instead of the outdated AK-100, a 100-mm artillery mount A-190-01 was placed. Further - 16 cells for "Calibers", "Onyxes" and "Zircons". And on the sides of the superstructure, where the Rastrub-B complex was previously located, there are two 3S24s with four Uranus missiles in each. As for the air defense system, instead of the outdated Kortik air defense missile systems, the Pantsir-M complex, the Shtil air defense system with 48 missiles ammunition, and the latest anti-submarine Answer with a firing range of up to 50 kilometers will be installed.
"Chabanenko" will be equipped with radar stations, electronic equipment, communications and combat control of the latest generation. The hull will also be patched up. The changes are so massive that the BOD will be retrained into a rank 1 frigate. Its return to the Northern Fleet is expected in late 2022 - early 2023.
The Admiral Vinogradov ship of the Pacific Fleet will be armed even more impressively, the modernization of which was announced at the end of last year. The Dalzavod Ship Repair Center JSC specified that they will replace almost one hundred percent of the combat systems - except for the AK-630 gun mounts. The pennant will be equipped with the Kalibr-NK missile system and the Packet-NK anti-submarine missile system, and the hull and cable routes will be updated. Two more pennants of Project 1155 are were also are intended for modernization - "Admiral Tributs" (in service since 1985) and "Admiral Panteleev" (since 1991). Thus, in a relatively short time, the fleet will be seriously strengthened.
Most armed
Large anti-submbarine ships 1155 and 1155.1 are not the only Soviet-built ships that have been brought up to date. So, since 2013 at "Sevmash" the nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" of project 1144.2M "Orlan" has been modernized. This giant will be made the most heavily armed pennant of the Russian Navy with vertical launchers for "Caliber", "Onyx" and "Zircon" for 80 cells. And the air defense will be replenished with the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system for 96 missiles.
The Kortik close-range air defense system will be replaced with Pantsir-M, the Osa-M anti-aircraft guns - with the new Redoubt, and the Packet-NK complex will protect the cruiser from torpedoes and submarines at short distances.
Of course, it will not do without the most advanced electronics, which will increase the situational awareness of the crew and significantly expand the possibilities of using onboard weapons. Nakhimov will be provided with advanced communication and navigation systems, electronic warfare systems, and an air group of three Ka-27M deck helicopters to search for submarines. Factory work should be completed in 2022-2023.
Strike "Admiral": Russia will receive a new carrier of cruise missiles
MOSCOW, January 13 - RIA Novosti, Andrey Kots. Powerful weapons, modern electronics and improved seaworthiness: details of the modernization of the large anti-submarine ship "Admiral Chabanenko" have been revealed. After repairs, the veteran of the Northern Fleet will become a truly "universal fighter" and will be able to destroy any land and sea targets. Updates await other pennants of the same type.
More missiles
"Admiral Chabanenko" is the only representative of the improved project 1155.1. His older brothers - BOD type 1155 - were the most numerous Soviet ships of the first rank. The series turned out to be extremely successful: excellent driving performance, anti-submarine weapons, two Ka-27PL helicopters at once in deck hangars. Among the disadvantages: there is no anti-ship weapon and weak air defense. Now in the fleet there are seven such BODs - the main ships of the far sea zone. However, in 2014, it was sent for repairs, which eventually grew into a deep modernization.
According to a source in the defense industry, it is primarily about weapons. In particular, "Chabanenko" will receive four quadruple rocket launchers "Uran" and a universal ship complex ZS14 with 16 cells for "Caliber", "Onyx" and promising "Zircons", which shoot much farther than "Mosquitoes" and more accurately.
In total, the updated BOD will be able to take on board 32 cruise missiles. This, of course, falls short of the American destroyers "Arleigh Burke", which are similar to the "Chabanenko" in displacement, but significantly more than other pennants of the Northern Fleet.
New opportunities
The modernization program includes not only Chabanenko, but also Project 1155 ships. So, in April 2021, the frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov arrived in the Pacific Fleet after a five-year repair. It replaced 80 percent of the cable routes, re-fabricated about 40 percent of the hull structures, installed the modern MR-760 Fregat-MA radar station and the 5P-30N2 Fregat-H2 information processing system. The ship was equipped with the R-779-28 communications complex, and the artillery fire is now controlled by the MP-123-02 / 3 "Bagheera" universal system.
It was decided not to dismantle four AK-630M anti-aircraft guns, two four-tube torpedo tubes and two RBU-6000 rocket launchers. The Kinzhal air defense missile systems also remained in the bow. Behind them, instead of the outdated AK-100, a 100-mm artillery mount A-190-01 was placed. Further - 16 cells for "Calibers", "Onyxes" and "Zircons". And on the sides of the superstructure, where the Rastrub-B complex was previously located, there are two 3S24s with four Uranus missiles in each. As for the air defense system, instead of the outdated Kortik air defense missile systems, the Pantsir-M complex, the Shtil air defense system with 48 missiles ammunition, and the latest anti-submarine Answer with a firing range of up to 50 kilometers will be installed.
"Chabanenko" will be equipped with radar stations, electronic equipment, communications and combat control of the latest generation. The hull will also be patched up. The changes are so massive that the BOD will be retrained into a rank 1 frigate. Its return to the Northern Fleet is expected in late 2022 - early 2023.
The Admiral Vinogradov ship of the Pacific Fleet will be armed even more impressively, the modernization of which was announced at the end of last year. The Dalzavod Ship Repair Center JSC specified that they will replace almost one hundred percent of the combat systems - except for the AK-630 gun mounts. The pennant will be equipped with the Kalibr-NK missile system and the Packet-NK anti-submarine missile system, and the hull and cable routes will be updated. Two more pennants of Project 1155 are were also are intended for modernization - "Admiral Tributs" (in service since 1985) and "Admiral Panteleev" (since 1991). Thus, in a relatively short time, the fleet will be seriously strengthened.
Most armed
Large anti-submbarine ships 1155 and 1155.1 are not the only Soviet-built ships that have been brought up to date. So, since 2013 at "Sevmash" the nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" of project 1144.2M "Orlan" has been modernized. This giant will be made the most heavily armed pennant of the Russian Navy with vertical launchers for "Caliber", "Onyx" and "Zircon" for 80 cells. And the air defense will be replenished with the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system for 96 missiles.
The Kortik close-range air defense system will be replaced with Pantsir-M, the Osa-M anti-aircraft guns - with the new Redoubt, and the Packet-NK complex will protect the cruiser from torpedoes and submarines at short distances.
Of course, it will not do without the most advanced electronics, which will increase the situational awareness of the crew and significantly expand the possibilities of using onboard weapons. Nakhimov will be provided with advanced communication and navigation systems, electronic warfare systems, and an air group of three Ka-27M deck helicopters to search for submarines. Factory work should be completed in 2022-2023.
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wilhelm- Posts : 347
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Is there a list of the Udaloy class 1155 that are currently still in existence, and what their status is?
I know about Wikipedia, but I don't trust it as a reliable source.
Which vessels have been upgraded, and which are confirmed to be upgraded?
Edit:
It looks like 13 completed.
3 definitely scrapped. (Udaloy, Zakarov, Spiridonov)
2 decommissioned, of which one is said to have been scrapped, but I see no real confirmation. (Kharlamov, Vasilevsky)
With current tensions, is Kharlamov still to be scrapped?
Was Vasilevsky definitely scrapped?
How many of the definite existing hulls (8-10?) will be modernised?
I realise that the Gorshkov class will replace these, but with tensions high, and they have gotten progressively worse over the last 8 years, the old saying that you fight with what you currently have in hand is relevant.
I know about Wikipedia, but I don't trust it as a reliable source.
Which vessels have been upgraded, and which are confirmed to be upgraded?
Edit:
It looks like 13 completed.
3 definitely scrapped. (Udaloy, Zakarov, Spiridonov)
2 decommissioned, of which one is said to have been scrapped, but I see no real confirmation. (Kharlamov, Vasilevsky)
With current tensions, is Kharlamov still to be scrapped?
Was Vasilevsky definitely scrapped?
How many of the definite existing hulls (8-10?) will be modernised?
I realise that the Gorshkov class will replace these, but with tensions high, and they have gotten progressively worse over the last 8 years, the old saying that you fight with what you currently have in hand is relevant.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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* BPK Vice-Admiral Kulakov; Northern fleet, active..
* BPK Admiral Tributs, Pacific fleet, active...
* BPK Admiral Levchenko (NF); in sea trials, overhaull is completed.
* Fregat Marshal Shaposhnikov; Pacific fleet, modernized and in service,
* BPK Severomorsk; Northern fleet, active..
* BPK Admiral Panteleev: Pacific fleet, active..
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Vinogradov (PF): modernization is underway
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Chabanenko (NF) : modernization is underway
* BPK Admiral Tributs, Pacific fleet, active...
* BPK Admiral Levchenko (NF); in sea trials, overhaull is completed.
* Fregat Marshal Shaposhnikov; Pacific fleet, modernized and in service,
* BPK Severomorsk; Northern fleet, active..
* BPK Admiral Panteleev: Pacific fleet, active..
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Vinogradov (PF): modernization is underway
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Chabanenko (NF) : modernization is underway
Last edited by Podlodka77 on Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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wilhelm- Posts : 347
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Thanks Podlovka.
So can one assume the 4 unmodernised ones will also be modernised?
What about Kharlamov?
Is it still in existence? Will it be scrapped?
So can one assume the 4 unmodernised ones will also be modernised?
What about Kharlamov?
Is it still in existence? Will it be scrapped?
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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wilhelm wrote:Thanks Podlovka.
So can one assume the 4 unmodernised ones will also be modernised?
Thank you..
I dont think so; maybe only Panteleev. We must wait and see what happens next.
You must ask that those guys in Russian MOD...
Admiral Panteleev is the youngest (Chabanenko is exception, project 1155.1M) and its 31 years old now. If they ask me that ship is the last of those which should be modernized and rest of them will be overhauled (probably) anyway. All of them will probably serve untill 2030 and those which are modernized will serve for a few years more untill 22350M arrives in Northern fleet and Pacific fleet. But there is a chance that some of the 1155's from Northern fleet could be deccomissioned earlier than those ships in the service of the Pacific fleet. Admiral Golovko is the third of the 22350 class of frigates and this ship would almost certainly serve in the Northern fleet.
Smetlivy destroyer (project 61) has served for more than 50 years and i think that those 1155 class ships will serve until early/late 2030's. Chabanenko is an exception and that ship will be 50 years in service in 2049.
Kharlamov was officially deccomissioned on 02.12.2020 and the Andreevsky flag was taken down from the ships mast. Its deccomissioned and yes, it will be scrapped.
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My understanding of the Metel is a bit different from yours. The Metel missile had a long history and initially entered service in the early 70's as the Metel/Rastrub ASW missile system. It was already dual capable at this time. The missile system was modernized in the late 70's into what became known as the Rastrub B and entered service in the 80's. Most Western observers believed it was a pure ASW missile system but there were a couple that believed it to be dual capable.
As it turned out the missile is capable of hitting both surface ships and submarines. To defeat surface ships, the missile has a homing head and an increased combat load (additional 185kg warhead + the torpedo) in order to ensure a kill on a large surface ship. The defeat of submarines is carried out by a homing torpedo, which the missile drops in a given area. It can also be armed with a depth charge.
In ASW mode the missile flies towards the target at a height of 400m (some say 600-800m) whilst in anti-shipping mode the missile flies towards the target at 15-20m.
With the Metel being dual role - automatically gives the Udaloy a multirole capability, but as I've said already these ships are ASW orientated.
I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying... the initial missile was anti sub only as shown by your photos above that have two different types of missile... one with an IR sensor and one without loaded in tubes side by side.
After it entered service however they realised that without a dedicated anti ship capability these significantly sized destroyers would be helpless against any WWII era gun armed enemy ship, so the missile design was modified... a HE warhead was added, which together with the warhead for the torpedo and the torpedo fuel which would add to any fire started was deemed enough to be effective to make the fully anti ship and anti sub, but as you pointed out their role did not change... they remained anti sub ships, because their sonar and their air defence missiles and even their propulsion was all optimised for sub chasing.
The improved Metel was possible with shrinking electronics size and new IR sensor technology of the time.... obviously it sees a heat blob that is a ship that is a different temperature to the water around it... it is not an NSW type weapon but in many ways it actually is... low flying.... relatively fast... totally passive guidance... but also able to engage submarines, though when it does the warhead and IR seeker on board the missile has no function and just falls into the sea when the torpedo is released.
defense missile systems, the Pantsir-M complex, the Shtil air defense system with 48 missiles ammunition, and the latest anti-submarine Answer with a firing range of up to 50 kilometers will be installed.
So they kept the front mounted TOR missiles but replaced the ones in the rear with Shtil... that is interesting because each of the two single armed Shtil launcher on the Sovremmeny had 24 missiles each so this is the equivalent of the Shtils from the Sov, plus the forward mounted TOR, plus four 30mm gatling mounts and Pantsir.... that is pretty good together with two UKSK and four Uranium mounts.
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BPK Admiral Tributs and INS Kochi on 14.01.2022 in the Arabian Sea.
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Podlodka77 wrote:wilhelm wrote:Thanks Podlovka.
So can one assume the 4 unmodernised ones will also be modernised?
Thank you..
I dont think so; maybe only Panteleev. We must wait and see what happens next.
You must ask that those guys in Russian MOD...
Admiral Panteleev is the youngest (Chabanenko is exception, project 1155.1M) and its 31 years old now. If they ask me that ship is the last of those which should be modernized and rest of them will be overhauled (probably) anyway. All of them will probably serve untill 2030 and those which are modernized will serve for a few years more untill 22350M arrives in Northern fleet and Pacific fleet. But there is a chance that some of the 1155's from Northern fleet could be deccomissioned earlier than those ships in the service of the Pacific fleet. Admiral Golovko is the third of the 22350 class of frigates and this ship would almost certainly serve in the Northern fleet.
Smetlivy destroyer (project 61) has served for more than 50 years and i think that those 1155 class ships will serve until early/late 2030's. Chabanenko is an exception and that ship will be 50 years in service in 2049.
Kharlamov was officially deccomissioned on 02.12.2020 and the Andreevsky flag was taken down from the ships mast. Its deccomissioned and yes, it will be scrapped.
2 or 3 years ago the talk from the Navy was that 8 would be modernized. Time will tell. That would pretty much cover your list above:
* BPK Vice-Admiral Kulakov; Northern fleet, active..
* BPK Admiral Tributs, Pacific fleet, active...
* BPK Admiral Levchenko (NF); in sea trials, overhaull is completed.
* Fregat Marshal Shaposhnikov; Pacific fleet, modernized and in service,
* BPK Severomorsk; Northern fleet, active..
* BPK Admiral Panteleev: Pacific fleet, active..
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Vinogradov (PF): modernization is underway
* Fregat (after modernization) Admiral Chabanenko (NF) : modernization is underway
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Ithink they will continue to primarily serve a ASW warfare role, but now they have sea and land attack capabilities. The anti aircraft system is purely defensive short range type. Tor is a great system. That with the ak630 cwis will aid to keep missiles off that might break thru a greater anti air umbrella.
One question I have is how many tor missile channels would this ship have? Hopefully at least four, with two missiles being able to be guided at each of th4 four targets. But anyways with updated sonar tech and otvet missiles this ship will be an incredible accompaniment to a large task force in defending against subs.
One question I have is how many tor missile channels would this ship have? Hopefully at least four, with two missiles being able to be guided at each of th4 four targets. But anyways with updated sonar tech and otvet missiles this ship will be an incredible accompaniment to a large task force in defending against subs.
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Huge photo report of the Sovremenyy class ship Bespokoiny.
The ship is now a museum.
Excellent high quality photos.
https://cheslav-kara.livejournal.com/104652.html
The ship is now a museum.
Excellent high quality photos.
https://cheslav-kara.livejournal.com/104652.html
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walle83- Posts : 976
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Krepost wrote:Huge photo report of the Sovremenyy class ship Bespokoiny.
The ship is now a museum.
Excellent high quality photos.
https://cheslav-kara.livejournal.com/104652.html
Doesnt look that bad, wonder what made them decide to not bring it back. Gessing the engine was a total mess.
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Reading the forums i didnt see anything about the SAM's being replaced in future destroyers. Does anyone know if they will try add Redut instead of kinzhal?
And i know on pantelyev (cant spell) according to an article about the vessels modernization she will be recieving Pantsir-M, but dont think they would rely only on Pantsir for CIWS
And i know on pantelyev (cant spell) according to an article about the vessels modernization she will be recieving Pantsir-M, but dont think they would rely only on Pantsir for CIWS
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IMO they will try to install a laser CIWS. The same as thz new ground based one but more for test purpose and improve it over the time until it becomes good enough.
It has nuk power plant to feed a lot of energy. The ship is perfect for it.
That ship has probably two or three secret weapon that we don't know of.
It has nuk power plant to feed a lot of energy. The ship is perfect for it.
That ship has probably two or three secret weapon that we don't know of.
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Navy fanboy wrote:Reading the forums i didnt see anything about the SAM's being replaced in future destroyers. Does anyone know if they will try add Redut instead of kinzhal?
And i know on pantelyev (cant spell) according to an article about the vessels modernization she will be recieving Pantsir-M, but dont think they would rely only on Pantsir for CIWS
Udalois are just getting upgraded enough to get them up to standard with missiles that are currently in use (their old ones are no longer in production)
Everything else gets bare minimum just to keep them going until replacements frigates arrive
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Kinzhal is traditionally a CIWS defence for bigger ships... it is carried on the Kuznetsov and also the Orlan and Atlant class cruisers together with Kashtan which was the older version of Pantsir/Tunguska.
The upgrades of older ships don't really give a good indication of what they are going to put on their brand new design destroyers and cruisers... I suspect Redut will be standard going forward along with S-400 missiles and likely a launcher for S-500 missiles as well.
This will suffice on a larger ship to allow defence of a fairly wide area of sea and the ships operating in that area.
I rather suspect that funding for their navy will increase and they will start to accelerate their expanding surface fleet, but of course they will never try to match the west in terms of ship numbers... they simply cannot afford that, but equally they can't afford not to have a global reach with their blue water navy or the west will isolate them to keep them "contained".
With the removal of the INF treaty I would love to see multistage long range Iskander type IRCMs with scramjet propulsion with ranges of 2-3 thousand kms and flight speeds of mach 10-12 at altitudes of 60km plus... if their SAMs simply mirror their ground based networks they should be fine...
As mentioned certainly lasers would start to make sense for air defence too and long range guns would be interesting as well... if a wave of drones are detected 100km away then being able to fire a 203mm EMP shell to take out a large portion of the group would be a valuable capability... if you can accurately land a round amongst them... GLONASS guidance with datalink update perhaps...
Of course it will take time to build up their surface fleet but they are taking the time to get things right before starting serial production, but once that starts they should be able to produce ships quite rapidly... and ships proven to be useful and effective.
The upgrades of older ships don't really give a good indication of what they are going to put on their brand new design destroyers and cruisers... I suspect Redut will be standard going forward along with S-400 missiles and likely a launcher for S-500 missiles as well.
This will suffice on a larger ship to allow defence of a fairly wide area of sea and the ships operating in that area.
I rather suspect that funding for their navy will increase and they will start to accelerate their expanding surface fleet, but of course they will never try to match the west in terms of ship numbers... they simply cannot afford that, but equally they can't afford not to have a global reach with their blue water navy or the west will isolate them to keep them "contained".
With the removal of the INF treaty I would love to see multistage long range Iskander type IRCMs with scramjet propulsion with ranges of 2-3 thousand kms and flight speeds of mach 10-12 at altitudes of 60km plus... if their SAMs simply mirror their ground based networks they should be fine...
As mentioned certainly lasers would start to make sense for air defence too and long range guns would be interesting as well... if a wave of drones are detected 100km away then being able to fire a 203mm EMP shell to take out a large portion of the group would be a valuable capability... if you can accurately land a round amongst them... GLONASS guidance with datalink update perhaps...
Of course it will take time to build up their surface fleet but they are taking the time to get things right before starting serial production, but once that starts they should be able to produce ships quite rapidly... and ships proven to be useful and effective.