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Podlodka77 wrote:Loading Chinese SSN Type-093 submarines with cruise missiles.
These are Type-041B Yuan class SSK's.
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Mir- Posts : 3759
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These are Type-041B Yuan class SSK's.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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Mir wrote:Podlodka77 wrote:Loading Chinese SSN Type-093 submarines with cruise missiles.
These are Type-041B Yuan class SSK's.
My mistake.. !
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Mir- Posts : 3759
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Well technically I could also be making a mistake as these subs are also referred to as Type-39A/B/C but as far as I and others are concerned the Yuan subs are not a close relative to the Type-039 Song class subs. Just looking at the hull design tells you that they are rather developed from the Russian Kilos, and they deserve a new Type designation and is now more commonly referred to as the Type-041's.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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Mir wrote:Well technically I could also be making a mistake as these subs are also referred to as Type-39A/B/C but as far as I and others are concerned the Yuan subs are not a close relative to the Type-039 Song class subs. Just looking at the hull design tells you that they are rather developed from the Russian Kilos, and they deserve a new Type designation and is now more commonly referred to as the Type-041's.
Anyway, I was wrong..
I saw the picture on the Russian forum "balancer.ru" and transferred it here, without staring ..
GarryB- Posts : 40415
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The important thing is that you are not doubling down to keep your reputations for always being right and denying the obvious...
Of course that is easier said than done... for years I was led to believe by western experts that the reason there seemed to be so few T-64s and T-80s and so many T-72s was because the autoloaders in the T-64s and T-80s were faulty and could rip off arms.
The design of the autoloader in the T-72 is different and holds fewer 6 rounds which suggests they didn't make the change to improve the capacity... but it turns out that some idiot might have reached in to the mechanism while the other crewman was firing or some such rubbish and got a serious injury... stick your hand in any piece of machinery and you can lose it... they don't need to make that up for me to undertand that is possible and if for some reason the commander had to hand load a round or clear something... well accidents happen and of course such rumours would spread rapidly too...
The point that was discussed to me is that with an autoloading system the only interaction with the crew is loading it, so in exercise or combat or whatever the crew are not going to be reaching over barriers to put their hands in the automatic loading mechanism and if you believed western hype you would expect the May Day parade to consist of one armed tank men every year.
Being able to look at the evidence and making a decision is key but as the evidence changes then that decision might change.
My understanding of Putin would be destroyed if Vann and the wests claim that he had billions hidden in the west for his retirement and that he is just a tool of the west escalating things and being the boogey man that western populations need to focus on to distract them from the fact that while the gadgets and goodies they are getting are better their quality of life is not improving and lots of things are going backwards and politicians on both sides just call for wars and new laws when existing laws are not properly enforced.
The evidence presented is pathetic however and if he did have enormous amounts of money hidden in the west they could declare a victory by seizing it which they have not done... the west has been losing this last 15-20 years or so... they started to go down hill (or start to climb nazi hill) when the Former Yugoslavia collapsed and they pounced like Hyena on a dead horse.... the rest of the animals in the room suddenly realised the ethics and morals it spouted were just words used to justify their less pleasing public actions...
Of course that is easier said than done... for years I was led to believe by western experts that the reason there seemed to be so few T-64s and T-80s and so many T-72s was because the autoloaders in the T-64s and T-80s were faulty and could rip off arms.
The design of the autoloader in the T-72 is different and holds fewer 6 rounds which suggests they didn't make the change to improve the capacity... but it turns out that some idiot might have reached in to the mechanism while the other crewman was firing or some such rubbish and got a serious injury... stick your hand in any piece of machinery and you can lose it... they don't need to make that up for me to undertand that is possible and if for some reason the commander had to hand load a round or clear something... well accidents happen and of course such rumours would spread rapidly too...
The point that was discussed to me is that with an autoloading system the only interaction with the crew is loading it, so in exercise or combat or whatever the crew are not going to be reaching over barriers to put their hands in the automatic loading mechanism and if you believed western hype you would expect the May Day parade to consist of one armed tank men every year.
Being able to look at the evidence and making a decision is key but as the evidence changes then that decision might change.
My understanding of Putin would be destroyed if Vann and the wests claim that he had billions hidden in the west for his retirement and that he is just a tool of the west escalating things and being the boogey man that western populations need to focus on to distract them from the fact that while the gadgets and goodies they are getting are better their quality of life is not improving and lots of things are going backwards and politicians on both sides just call for wars and new laws when existing laws are not properly enforced.
The evidence presented is pathetic however and if he did have enormous amounts of money hidden in the west they could declare a victory by seizing it which they have not done... the west has been losing this last 15-20 years or so... they started to go down hill (or start to climb nazi hill) when the Former Yugoslavia collapsed and they pounced like Hyena on a dead horse.... the rest of the animals in the room suddenly realised the ethics and morals it spouted were just words used to justify their less pleasing public actions...
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walle83- Posts : 976
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Type-52D DDG 132 Suzhou in Gulf of Aden.
Commissioned in 2021.
161 meters in lengh
<8.000 tons full load
64 vls
1x 130mm gun
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
1x 30mm 11 barrel CIWS
Commissioned in 2021.
161 meters in lengh
<8.000 tons full load
64 vls
1x 130mm gun
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
1x 30mm 11 barrel CIWS
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walle83- Posts : 976
Points : 986
Join date : 2016-11-12
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Type-55 DDG 101 Nanchang, commissioned in 2020.
Lengh 180m
<13.000 tons full load
112 VLS
1x 130 mm gun
1x 30 mm CIWS
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
Lengh 180m
<13.000 tons full load
112 VLS
1x 130 mm gun
1x 30 mm CIWS
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
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walle83- Posts : 976
Points : 986
Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
Type-75 LHD 32 Guangxi.
Commissioned in 2021.
Lengh 237 m
40.000 tons full load
2x 30 mm CIWS
2x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
Commissioned in 2021.
Lengh 237 m
40.000 tons full load
2x 30 mm CIWS
2x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
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walle83- Posts : 976
Points : 986
Join date : 2016-11-12
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Type-956E DDG 136 Hangzhou
Commissioned in 1999, modified in 2016, re-commissioned in 2020.
Lengh 156 m
8.500 tons full load
32 VLS
8 YJ-12 anti-ship missiles
2x dual 130 mm canons
4x 30mm CIWS including 2 Kashtan systems.
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
Commissioned in 1999, modified in 2016, re-commissioned in 2020.
Lengh 156 m
8.500 tons full load
32 VLS
8 YJ-12 anti-ship missiles
2x dual 130 mm canons
4x 30mm CIWS including 2 Kashtan systems.
1x 24-cell short range HQ-10 missile launcher.
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walle83- Posts : 976
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Type-71 LPD 987 Qilianshan
Commissioned in 2020.
Lengh 210m
25.000 tons full load
4x 30 mm CIWS
1x 76 mm canon
Commissioned in 2020.
Lengh 210m
25.000 tons full load
4x 30 mm CIWS
1x 76 mm canon
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walle83- Posts : 976
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Join date : 2016-11-12
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Type 052B ships are in refit. Looks like China now have been refitting all of thier older generation destroyers except from the Type-51 Luda that has been retired completly by 2020.
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walle83- Posts : 976
Points : 986
Join date : 2016-11-12
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Type-54A frigate 599 Anyang
Commissioned in 2018.
Lengh 134 m
4.050 tons full load
32 VLS
8x C-803 anti-ship missiles
1x 76mm canon
2x 30mm CIWCS
Commissioned in 2018.
Lengh 134 m
4.050 tons full load
32 VLS
8x C-803 anti-ship missiles
1x 76mm canon
2x 30mm CIWCS
walle83- Posts : 976
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Join date : 2016-11-12
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The J-15.
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walle83- Posts : 976
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Type 93A SSN submarine.
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Backman- Posts : 2703
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Seeing firepower on full display in a real war goes a long way. China missed an opportunity in Syria. Perhaps Russia would have let China fire on some ISIS targets in Syria in 2015-17 with submarines or surface ships. The whole operation could have been a joint exercise. Then we would have seen all of this shiny stuff in the real. Its just different when you haven't seen any of it in real combat.
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Not so much for our confidence, but for their own.
China, like Russia takes war seriously and will not start or join a war for fun or because the US wants them to or doesn't want them to.
But Chinas entry into the conflict in Syria would have implications and effects on their relationship with the US and the west... China is vastly more integrated into the western economic empire than Russia ever was and China breaking with the west will seriously effect China, but also dramatically effect the west who will have an effect like moving their industry to the Urals that happened to the Soviets in WWII... except there will be no rail lines to shift equipment and people... the western people working in China will of course fly to their new country for their new jobs of setting up production there but that will likely be from scratch because they wont be moving to a modern western country... they will be moving to the next poor third world country with weak or no labour laws where labour is cheap and expendable.
China will lose its western markets, but that only represents 15% of the worlds population at best and could be replaced simply by improving ties with India and sitting down and making some agreements and serious talks regarding borders etc.
I would say Syria was a good opportunity for them to get some real world experience without getting their feet wet so to speak... helping a government deal with terrorist forces trying to overthrow their government is a legitimate use of force, especially when the enemy is fractions that wont work together even if they succeed... I doubt the Syrian Kurds want to live in an ISIS Caliphate...
The result of Assad losing would be what is happening in Libya which would actually be bad for Europe... where do they think the Syrian people are going to be running to if Assad was defeated?
But Europe doesn't care about such things till they happen... they are like a stupid dog that just wags its tail when it thinks it is going for walkies.
(Not to bad mouth dogs of course... there are some very intelligent animals... but Europe is more loyal than smart.)
China, like Russia takes war seriously and will not start or join a war for fun or because the US wants them to or doesn't want them to.
But Chinas entry into the conflict in Syria would have implications and effects on their relationship with the US and the west... China is vastly more integrated into the western economic empire than Russia ever was and China breaking with the west will seriously effect China, but also dramatically effect the west who will have an effect like moving their industry to the Urals that happened to the Soviets in WWII... except there will be no rail lines to shift equipment and people... the western people working in China will of course fly to their new country for their new jobs of setting up production there but that will likely be from scratch because they wont be moving to a modern western country... they will be moving to the next poor third world country with weak or no labour laws where labour is cheap and expendable.
China will lose its western markets, but that only represents 15% of the worlds population at best and could be replaced simply by improving ties with India and sitting down and making some agreements and serious talks regarding borders etc.
I would say Syria was a good opportunity for them to get some real world experience without getting their feet wet so to speak... helping a government deal with terrorist forces trying to overthrow their government is a legitimate use of force, especially when the enemy is fractions that wont work together even if they succeed... I doubt the Syrian Kurds want to live in an ISIS Caliphate...
The result of Assad losing would be what is happening in Libya which would actually be bad for Europe... where do they think the Syrian people are going to be running to if Assad was defeated?
But Europe doesn't care about such things till they happen... they are like a stupid dog that just wags its tail when it thinks it is going for walkies.
(Not to bad mouth dogs of course... there are some very intelligent animals... but Europe is more loyal than smart.)
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walle83- Posts : 976
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GarryB wrote:Not so much for our confidence, but for their own.
China, like Russia takes war seriously and will not start or join a war for fun or because the US wants them to or doesn't want them to.
But Chinas entry into the conflict in Syria would have implications and effects on their relationship with the US and the west... China is vastly more integrated into the western economic empire than Russia ever was and China breaking with the west will seriously effect China, but also dramatically effect the west who will have an effect like moving their industry to the Urals that happened to the Soviets in WWII... except there will be no rail lines to shift equipment and people... the western people working in China will of course fly to their new country for their new jobs of setting up production there but that will likely be from scratch because they wont be moving to a modern western country... they will be moving to the next poor third world country with weak or no labour laws where labour is cheap and expendable.
China will lose its western markets, but that only represents 15% of the worlds population at best and could be replaced simply by improving ties with India and sitting down and making some agreements and serious talks regarding borders etc.
I would say Syria was a good opportunity for them to get some real world experience without getting their feet wet so to speak... helping a government deal with terrorist forces trying to overthrow their government is a legitimate use of force, especially when the enemy is fractions that wont work together even if they succeed... I doubt the Syrian Kurds want to live in an ISIS Caliphate...
The result of Assad losing would be what is happening in Libya which would actually be bad for Europe... where do they think the Syrian people are going to be running to if Assad was defeated?
But Europe doesn't care about such things till they happen... they are like a stupid dog that just wags its tail when it thinks it is going for walkies.
(Not to bad mouth dogs of course... there are some very intelligent animals... but Europe is more loyal than smart.)
China exported for almost 450 billion dollars to the US in 2020, I doubt they will risk loosing that. Include the rest of the west its probably close to a trillion.
Mir- Posts : 3759
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walle83 wrote:
China exported for almost 450 billion dollars to the US in 2020, I doubt they will risk loosing that. Include the rest of the west its probably close to a trillion.
This is the end result of moving ALL your factories to the East to get a bigger profit margin...I can't see how the West can turn this around?
Werewolf- Posts : 5926
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Mir wrote:
This is the end result of moving ALL your factories to the East to get a bigger profit margin...I can't see how the West can turn this around?
The simple fact that they have build on western money factories in China to exploit cheap labor and gave all their technology to the Chinese is a joke by itself, but they are following openly a Anti-Chinese policy which will give China every excuse necessary to just take all these technologies and produce them regardless of the rights to the IP or patents. Just slam a different logo on it and don't change anything, maybe the source code. Little effort and all this technology, facilities for manufacturing have been build and paid for by the West.
The West is in shit serious trouble. No manufacturing capability due to high cost and no resource to begin with.
They traded all they had for nothing. The West has nothing to offer to the Eastern world.
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Mir wrote:walle83 wrote:
China exported for almost 450 billion dollars to the US in 2020, I doubt they will risk loosing that. Include the rest of the west its probably close to a trillion.
This is the end result of moving ALL your factories to the East to get a bigger profit margin...I can't see how the West can turn this around?
Like they done every other time, move the production again.
Before China it was Japan and Taiwan. Wouldnt be suprised if India will be the next nation to get thier chance.
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New drydocks at Hainan is close to be finished. This will give China 3 Naval bases where maintence can be done on large carriers and other vessels.
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Destroyer #157 seems to be commissioned. She was the last Type-52D destroyer launched meaning 25 ships should now be in service.
The total number ddg should then be:
4 956 Sovremennys
2 Type-52
2 Type-52B
6 Type-52C
25 Type-52D
1 Type-51B
2 Type-51C
= 42
The total number ddg should then be:
4 956 Sovremennys
2 Type-52
2 Type-52B
6 Type-52C
25 Type-52D
1 Type-51B
2 Type-51C
= 42
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GarryB- Posts : 40415
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Before China it was Japan and Taiwan. Wouldnt be suprised if India will be the next nation to get thier chance.
India wants that to happen but Bangledesh is right next door and is even cheaper.
The real problem is that when they left countries before like Japan or Taiwan they usually had agreements about where they could or could not sell their stuff, which meant all the new factories built in cheaper places could sell to the western markets, while those same western markets snubbed the cheap stuff from Taiwan or Japan after they moved their companies.
Japan and Taiwan survived by going upmarket high quality... cars, TVs, etc etc stuff most people don't want made by the lowest bidder...
China has its own built in consumer market so being blocked from western markets will just hurt western markets... where are they going to get their cheap shit from if the west bars sales from China? New factories can't spring up over night... and the sanctions the west will impose on China will just give them an excuse to ignore western IP rights and copyright laws for a bit while they transition to making their own stuff.... which might just be their own new logo.
Mir- Posts : 3759
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walle83 wrote:Destroyer #157 seems to be commissioned. She was the last Type-52D destroyer launched meaning 25 ships should now be in service.
The total number ddg should then be:
4 956 Sovremennys
2 Type-52
2 Type-52B
6 Type-52C
25 Type-52D
1 Type-51B
2 Type-51C
= 42
That's a major achievement for the PRC, but they have their work cut out for them with likes of the Japanese, South Korean and Indian navies - not to mention the USN. I do hope that Russia will expand their surface naval program to an adequate level to protect is own trade routes and interests. They certainly need to modernize and expand their destroyer size fleet rapidly.
walle83- Posts : 976
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Join date : 2016-11-12
Location : Sweden
Mir wrote:walle83 wrote:Destroyer #157 seems to be commissioned. She was the last Type-52D destroyer launched meaning 25 ships should now be in service.
The total number ddg should then be:
4 956 Sovremennys
2 Type-52
2 Type-52B
6 Type-52C
25 Type-52D
1 Type-51B
2 Type-51C
= 42
That's a major achievement for the PRC, but they have their work cut out for them with likes of the Japanese, South Korean and Indian navies - not to mention the USN. I do hope that Russia will expand their surface naval program to an adequate level to protect is own trade routes and interests. They certainly need to modernize and expand their destroyer size fleet rapidly.
I also forgot the Type-55, although it should be called a cruiser really.
But 42 + 5 = 47.
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