Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
Arrow wrote:Russia still has no AESA radars in service. And in the West, it's been standard for many years.
Arrow wrote:Irbis radar from Su-35S is PESA.
Here is the website with those same exact mmics A micro submodule in that chart is about 300 mW since the T/R module has 64 of these its 19200 or 19.2 watts per module and regarding that image there are 960 of these so the fga-35 works at roughly about 18.432 kilowatts. Guskov was asked in a interview if they are making a 5th gen radar with the same thing Guskov stated in response “we have certain plans” now no one knows if those certain plans have been implemented or not but this interview was stated in 2014.
LMFS wrote:It makes sense not to start deploying AESA until it is mature and cheap enough to offer real advantages compared to last PESAs. But from the moment they start (serial production of Su-57 already ongoing), production should be ramped up with decision in order to get reasonable prices and a good position in the radar export market. Otherwise their prices and manufacturing expertise will never progress and the whole future development of radar industry in Russia would be impaired.
Hole wrote:The energy is generated from the engines, the APU is only used to start up the engines and to provide energy on the ground.
Isos wrote:LMFS wrote:It makes sense not to start deploying AESA until it is mature and cheap enough to offer real advantages compared to last PESAs. But from the moment they start (serial production of Su-57 already ongoing), production should be ramped up with decision in order to get reasonable prices and a good position in the radar export market. Otherwise their prices and manufacturing expertise will never progress and the whole future development of radar industry in Russia would be impaired.
Zhuk m has a range of 120km against fighters. Last fga-35 has 260km. If this is not a proof that aesa are better ...
Irbis-e is powerfull but scaled down version with less power for mig-35 would be inferior to fga-35.
Sukhoi pesa are good because of raw power like mike said. Mig-35 is another story. It needs aesa more than sukhois.
miketheterrible wrote:Thanks for correction. Point still stands, not enough power provided for radar systems.
It does not seem too far fetched that you could drain hundreds of kW when you power plant generates tens of MWs as fighter engine does, the issue is probably volume and most critically thermal management. It is supposed that the third air stream in newer variable cycle engines destined to 6G planes, where electrical power will really grow manifold, will help with the heat evacuation that all the electric power handling and conditioning will require.Hole wrote:Don´t know if they could fit stronger generators to the engines.
They are working on ceramic transmiters/receivers for radars. GarryB Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:21 pm
miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
- Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
- Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.
Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved. Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).
ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.
kvs wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
- Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
- Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.
Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved. Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).
ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.
The trick with GaN is that for a given power level the signal discrimination is much higher. So you can either use less power to get the same detection ability
or use more power and get much better detection ability. I suspect a variable power capability is being developed. No need to be on detection steroids all the time.
magnumcromagnon wrote:kvs wrote:miketheterrible wrote:Reason why Russia never bothered initially with AESA for airborn radars was simple:
- Cost vs Performance - in end it's physics - energy input vs output. They managed to get similar results using Hybrid radar while paying significantly less.
- Efficiency of T/R modules. Older TR modules Russia and others make are rather inefficient. They have a relatively high failure rate (over 10% of total modules used) and cooling them was a problem initially. You would rarely if ever get 7w out of a 10w module, and these were seen in ground systems. Imagine for aircrafts.
Russia, since introducing AESA T/R modules GaAS back in early 2000's, have invested in ways to make it smaller and more efficient. A single module now consists of a quad pack meaning 4x per module. And instead of 5W, they managed upwards to 15W each. Ultimately though, cooling was and still is an issue. Don't know if overall efficiency has improved. Hence why only recently they been looking at it for aircraft while they been using AESA for ground systems for many years (Nebo M as example). Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).
ROFAR is what Rostec has invested money and even built two new facilities for. I think they are forgoing GaAS or GaN at the moment besides for civilian use (They make GaN modules as we speak for civil assets - telecom systems and airports). I have provided the news and links before on this forums.
The trick with GaN is that for a given power level the signal discrimination is much higher. So you can either use less power to get the same detection ability
or use more power and get much better detection ability. I suspect a variable power capability is being developed. No need to be on detection steroids all the time.
The thing is that MOD is applying GaN modules for 'their' take on 2nd gen AESA, which is GaN module AESA array backed with Photonic computing which allows information processing by an order of magnitude greater or more than previous generation of computing. Because the processing power is so much greater, you'll have an AESA array with rows of modules working on different frequencies wavelengths: One row could be X-band frequency, another row S-band, another L-band, another Ku-band, another VHF-band, another UHF-band. The multi-band AESA allows for 3D visualization of data gathered by frequency signals. You may even seen radars that go through THF wavelengths to ELF wavelengths.
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