Russian PESA and AESA Radars

Isos wrote:

Modern radars create electronic radiation in the area of ​​their action, which, reflected from objects, returns and transmits a signal to the receiving equipment. This technology has not changed for many decades. Radio-photon locators operate using an ultra-wide bandwidth optical signal processing path, and this provides a number of advantages. Firstly, the dimensions of such radars are much smaller than existing ones. Secondly, they are more reliable and more resistant to electromagnetic radiation. In addition, prospective locators have increased resolution and noise immunity. They allow not only to detect the target and determine the parameters of its flight, but also to compose a three-dimensional portrait of the object to determine its type."

Radars improved over the years specialy in computer proccessing. And now the datalinks makes radars much more dangerous and usefull as they share their information and makes something like a spider net over your country.

Radio photon radars will also be jammable and have their negative points as any technology.

Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

Isos wrote:

Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

And ?

You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

You simply don't get it do you? We're talking computing technology of completely new principles of physics. How can you use ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES on technology that doesn't utilize electronics? Until that day that photonic computing becomes as ubiquitous in the world as electronics, with the 'other-side' having their own photonic computing, they really won't be able to create jammers to defeat technology that's poorly understood. You can't use ASW munitions against ballistic missiles, and you can't uses ABM weapons against diesel-electric attack subs, because they work on completely different principles of physics. Photonic computing technology has resistance to interference from the electro-magnetic spectrum to such extremes never before seen in the computer world.....they even have high resistence to interference caused by solar storms emitted by celestial bodies in space.

Looks great Very Happy

Looks like it has RAM applied to it...I guess that's what the serial ones will look like

But hang on... this model doesn't have exposed metal engines like some early ones did... I thought they would all be the same as the first prototype because people complaining that they weren't fully serial stealthy said they aren't stealthy so the final product wont be stealthy... could it be they were wrong?

Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...

The thing is that MOD is applying GaN modules for 'their' take on 2nd gen AESA, which is GaN module AESA array backed with Photonic computing which allows information processing by an order of magnitude greater or more than previous generation of computing. Because the processing power is so much greater, you'll have an AESA array with rows of modules working on different frequencies wavelengths: One row could be X-band frequency, another row S-band, another L-band, another Ku-band, another VHF-band, another UHF-band. The multi-band AESA allows for 3D visualization of data gathered by frequency signals. You may even seen radars that go through THF wavelengths to ELF wavelengths.

If we look at NEBO, they have three different antenna working in three very different frequencies... each has their advantages and disadvantages, but combined you can eliminate the problems and enhance the capabilities and get a much more detailed and useful result.

Radars improved over the years specialy in computer proccessing. And now the datalinks makes radars much more dangerous and usefull as they share their information and makes something like a spider net over your country.

F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

The Soviet PVO widely used datalinks to share information and their current system for their navy makes their MiG-29KRs as capable as the F-35 is supposed to be in terms of sharing information... ie a MiG-29KR can send target data regarding a target to a ship over the horizon, that could then launch a SAM at that target based only on the target data from the MiG and hit it without ever detecting it with its own sensors...

Radio photon radars will also be jammable and have their negative points as any technology.

There is no such thing as a perfect unbeatable technology, but the point is not about it not being able to be jammed, the point is that all of a sudden those 120 million dollar F35s will be very vulnerable out to enormous ranges making their stealth cloak less like the one Harry Potter is given, and more like the Emperor with no clothes buys from those tailors and pays top dollar for...

Stealth is not a waste of money... except when you totally compromise the aircraft completely and make it seriously expensive to make and to operate because of its stealth features and materials.

When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.

And while they develop countermeasures the Russians will have the luxury of having working examples themselves and can work on their own countermeasures... so when the west introduces its own systems the Russians might already be able to defeat them in western hands... it seems the west is more reactionary... they didn't bother with SAMs that could deal with ballistic threats even though the Soviets had as many ballistic threats as they did... from the beginning the S-300 had anti theatre ballistic missile capability, which was also added to shorter ranged systems over time too. Equally the west does not seem to have done much in terms of anti stealth technology either... almost as if they are focused on destroying small countries instead of taking on Russia or China.

French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

The Russians have a range of EW platforms, including some rather capable Hip helicopters and Il-76 converted transports, as well as the Su-24 variants and Su-34 models they are working on.

One of the reasons the US is so against the Huawei 5G network gear is that it uses quantum encryption that they can't read yet...

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Isos wrote:

Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

And ?

You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

You simply don't get it do you? We're talking computing technology of completely new principles of physics. How can you use ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES on technology that doesn't utilize electronics? Until that day that photonic computing becomes as ubiquitous in the world as electronics, with the 'other-side' having their own photonic computing, they really won't be able to create jammers to defeat technology that's poorly understood. You can't use ASW munitions against ballistic missiles, and you can't uses ABM weapons against diesel-electric attack subs, because they work on completely different principles of physics. Photonic computing technology has resistance to interference from the electro-magnetic spectrum to such extremes never before seen in the computer world.....they even have high resistence to interference caused by solar storms emitted by celestial bodies in space.

Radio photonic is only a special technology of modulating and processing radar signals over a wide bandwidth. Advantage is a extreme accurate picture of the target, at close distance it's really possible to create a 3D picture of the target. So it's possible to identify a F-35 as a F-35 and have a perfect weapon quality track.

Radio photonic radars are still jammable, but they are less vulnerable to jamming...we are talking here about a few dimensions less vulnerable. So the power output of the jammers must grow, because the technology of ROFAR makes a countertechnology really really difficult. I read somewhere that the detection distance of ROFAR's is a bit less compared to classic radar, but the resolution is overwhelming great, creating 3D radar pictures. Every technology has it's disadvantage!

At moment Russia is leading in ROFAR technology, they had a few working prototypes, next step is serial production...but this will take a few years. Maybe if 2. stage engine for Su-57 are ready, ROFAR's will be too?! ROFAR's will give the edge over stealth and make it not complete useless, but cut it's efficiency extreme.

For ROFAR the processing is still managed by classic computers, we don't talk about photonic computers, or quantum computers. And ROFAR is not Quantum Radar! By the way...quantum technology is not jammable in any way whatsoever, but that's SciFi now.

Isos wrote:Not really "all of a sudden" because russia will need to replace all its radars, all its AD systems and make missiles adaptaded to those new photonic radars which won't be quick nor cheap.

Stealth works very well against modern targeting radars working in x band. That's why su-57 is stealth.

And contrary to what most russian fanboys here are saying, western countries are not stuck with AESA and stealth. And russia is not 20 years ahead in anything. They are also working on quantum radars while russia is still trying to make correct AESA and its new fighters are designed to be stealth which according to the same fanboys is useless. But yet Russia is doing it.

And that's the reason why Su-57 is stealth and PAK-DA will be...because most western AD-Systems are not designed to detect and track "stealth-aircraft". So NATO has to spend billions over billions of dollar to modernize AD-Systems. Su-57 and PAK-DA are winning a different war, an economic and psychological war. Modernize or stay helpless? Aircraft of course will with AESA/PESA have problems to spot stealthy aircraft over long distance.

Of course USA is working on technology of the future, but the focus for 15 years was different. If we are talking about the lost 10 years of Russia under Yeltsin, we should not forget the 15 years lost of USA and allies mainly focusing on the war on terror. For example the german frigate F-125 is a fine piece of technology, it can stay at ocean for twice as long as F-124, but they forgot something...yes missiles! The F-125 was optimized for police missions against pirates and terrorists and not for a war against a mighty opponent. That's why the best weapons systems of NATO are cold war systems and newer systems are sometimes a disaster.
In terms of EW, radar, cyberwarfare, nuclear weapons we have a parity between NATO and Russia, in some parts Russia is clear ahead. If we are talking about shipbuilding Russia has a long long way to reach parity with NATO.

GarryB wrote:

Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...

Is this AESA antenna in the wing, or on it? I am not aware of such AESA on the Su-35 - it might be under development, but it isn't in service yet.

F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

Well, there is MADL...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link

BlackArrow wrote:

F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

Well, there is MADL...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link

Ahem, Black Arrow, look that the MADL is EXACTLY the problem for what that one -way only transmission link was introduced in post production as a stop gap measure, not the contrary.
Fact is that the USAF top brass and the Lo-Mart designers in their urge to happily enter in a new technological era of wonders have just forgot to carry the rest of their own planes and above all the assets of their own allies with them.
Given that MADL could exchange data with other similarly AESA equipped planes F-22 was not cleared to operate in scenarios in which allies were present (i.e. always) until a data link was introduced.
Also in this case however, their own obsession about stealth was so overhelming that they limited it to receive only, spoiling one of the best tactical advantage a VLO can bring to the table i.e. the capacity to operate as a forward recon asset.

GarryB wrote:
Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).


They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...

In other world, it will be in the same situations of the DAS aperture on F-35 as was recently admitted by the USAF: they can sense IR sources and even obtain an IR image if these are hot enough but for engage them, they need to use the main FLIR/IRST device.
So difference between DAS and Himalaya is that the former is an IIR sensor (i.e. a small FLIR) while the other is a dual UV/IR one that operate as an IRST (i.e. gives out tracking data, not images).

Not really "all of a sudden" because russia will need to replace all its radars, all its AD systems and make missiles adaptaded to those new photonic radars which won't be quick nor cheap.

Most of its radars are already tied into air defence systems that combine different radar types with different frequencies... perhaps you are confusing Russia for the US... when the US introduced multiple rocket launchers in their army they replaced tube artillery. The Soviets added rocket launchers to tube artillery and used both together...

When Soviet tanks got modern laminate and composite armour types they used them together with ERA and other things like SHTORA EW systems, they didn't just rely on one solution or another... they used them all together.

These photonic radars will be the same, they will likely add photonic radar to existing systems to add to rather than replace... which will be cheaper and quicker and ultimately more effective for a much wider range of threats and targets.

Stealth works very well against modern targeting radars working in x band. That's why su-57 is stealth.

Many modern radars in Russia don't work in X or Ku band. They are going to make Su-57s which are stealthy, but they are also going to make MiG-35s and Su-35s which are not, and they are going to make more stealthy flying wing PAK DA, but they are also going to make Tu-160M2s which are not.

Sounds like they don't think stealth alone is the answer.

And contrary to what most russian fanboys here are saying, western countries are not stuck with AESA and stealth.

Of course not, if Russia was going for an all stealth and super expensive highly stealth suite of aircraft then they would have to do pretty much what Russia has done with mixed frequency radar that work together with other types to reduce the effectiveness of stealth, but we don't really see Russia doing that and equally we don't see the west doing that either.

Action reaction.

And russia is not 20 years ahead in anything.

Well in terms of hypersonic manouvering missiles they have had the Iskander in service for 20 years, and they seem to be progressing in other areas quite well too.

They are also working on quantum radars while russia is still trying to make correct AESA and its new fighters are designed to be stealth which according to the same fanboys is useless. But yet Russia is doing it.

They were supposed to be working on a ramjet powered AAM based on the R-77 but cancelled that... and it can't be because they are shit at ramjet powered missiles... I mean the SA-6 SAM entered service half a century ago, but if it is not that they couldn't do it, then it is more likely that they realised there was an alternative that offered better performance returns... ie a scramjet powered AAM... very similar design issues but rather higher speed performance... why wouldn't you?

The thing with AESA radars is their extreme cost to start out with... the solution is to wait until you have the best possible design out of the right materials and then make radars for ships because those arrays are huge and so mass production is needed and it is mass production that forces down the cost and improves the design and makes them cheaper and more effective. After a while they become cheap and you have learned some new tricks regarding their search algorythms and use makes them even more effective... but the critical thing is cost... PESAs have most of the useful features at a fraction of the cost, and that wont change until you have made a few. Ground based radar arrays and ship based ones means production in the tens or hundreds of millions, which is a great way to reduce to price and increase the performance...

Pretty soon you start integrating these radar antennas into all sorts of things... including HMG mounts and auto grenade launcher mounts and of course drones for armoured vehicles with MMW radar and IIR sensors... which might never be replaced by photonic radars because they do a good enough job not to need replacing.

Is this AESA antenna in the wing, or on it? I am not aware of such AESA on the Su-35 - it might be under development, but it isn't in service yet.

Of course, stealth detecting radar, already shown at MAKS in 2009:


By Allocer

Always been a Russian priority to talk about their most secret operational systems, especially things that give them a serious edge...

So difference between DAS and Himalaya is that the former is an IIR sensor (i.e. a small FLIR) while the other is a dual UV/IR one that operate as an IRST (i.e. gives out tracking data, not images).

But the IR system on the Su-35 and Su-57 also have thermal imaging channels as well as imaging TV systems. They have 360 degree threat warning UV/IR sensors like PIRs in a security system, but their IRSTs are imaging systems and can be augmented with pod mounted systems for lower hemisphere imaging and targeting.

The distributed system is early warning and self defence and DIRCMS related systems, while the nose mounted IRSTs are for targeting ground and air targets.

US is working on Quantum Radars?

Uh, as an FYI, Quantum radars are essentially what ROFAR is. Its photonics. That is what Rostec has been working on for a long time now.

And wtf is correct AESA?

These are phrases used by people who have no idea about the technology, how it works or implemented.

AESA modules have been in use in Russia since early 2000's. As stated before hand, its been in use with Nebo radar. And their EW systems with even GaN modules used back in 2015 for its EW.

https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/4c8/4c89c11ae741be234a5f900b3fb41e86.pdf
https://rostec.ru/upload/iblock/749/7499bd4f8161ec87a58c080c077564e8.pdf

As stated, GaN modules are already made in Russia

https://niiet.ru/news/radiotranz

JSC "NIIET" (part of JSC "Concern "Sozvezdie") has developed a new high-power microwave GaN transistors ПП9139Б1. The main application area is the radio transmission equipment. Transistors oriented on the creation and upgrading of advanced models of existing automated systems of radio communication, navigation and air traffic control, broadband data transmission, radar equipment, unmanned aerial vehicles and airborne communication systems.

US doesn't even use GaN in large numbers or use. It has 1 testing unit. They aren't really far in Quantum (ROFAR) Radar systems at all. Russia already tested theirs. Same with China.

kvs wrote:The US is just as "ahead" of Russia in this field as it is in hypersonic missiles and warheads.   Soon we will have US blowhards accusing Russia of stealing
US ROFAR technology.    The usual pre-emptive smear to compensate for being behind the curve.

We got dickheads on this forum who have no fucking clue how Radar works or even what they are saying. True AESA? WTF does that even mean? I mean, I got family working in radiotechnology engineering. they built radar systems. If I even showed them this they would have a heart attack knowing how stupid some Americans or pro Americans will just spew make belief stuff just to make a point which is invalid anyway.

Holy shit, I know US education system is garbage and they rely on foreigners to fill the ranks in the R&D industry, but I didn't think it was that bad.

Isos wrote:

And wtf is correct AESA?

One that is deployed and works.

US are using AESA since more than 10 years ago and they have them on all their fighters. Russia is still developing (or have develop recently) aesa radars. And they seem to order mig-35 with old zhuk-m but it was supposed to be their first jet with aesa.

Having the modules doesn't mean you have the radar technology.

You are a retard.

Nebo M and SVU.  All their EW systems are AESA as well.  I have said this countless times.  Your reading comprehension issues is beyond staggering.

The radar you speak for MiG-35 isn't PESA either.  Its AESA.  Its the Beetle-A radar.  170km range.  Seen at MAKS 2019.

Instead of being a moron, go read the two PDF's I have provided.  But, judging by your history of making shit up and talking smack with no method of backing up your claims, you wont.  Or you just don't know how to actually read so there is that too.

http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/55Zh6M-Nebo-M_a002724001.aspx

This link is within your capabilities of being able to read it I hope.

Edit: And I know what you are going to say afterwards - "I am talking about airborn radar". That is simply moving goalposts since the point is you were wrong anyway.

T/R modules are the same.  You would need to understand that first, which you do not.  A module is a transmitter and Receiver.  That is common in all radar systems be it ground and airbase.  So yes, those modules can very well be the exact same modules.  Hence why they are dual purpose systems used from radar systems to telecommunication systems.

I know this because I have seen it first hand.  You have not.  Reason why they didn't initially use such T/R modules is because of the cooling issue.  This was stated by Kret back about 2013 in a Takeoff magazine.

I ask you of this.

Provide me proof to the following statements:

-T/R Modules not the same
-N036 is still being worked on
-a MiG-35 in use by Russia using anything other than Beetle-A.

Pictures with full descriptions please.

Otherwise, you are full of shit and useless.

I will give you some answers:

-T/R modules are same because its the basic intrinsics how Radar works.  T/R modules all work as same instances since its basic physics.
-N036 is been complete for sometime, because first series production of Su-57 is to arrive this year.
-MiG-35 isn't in Russian service yet and what was showcased at MAKS-2019 is exactly the radar to be used.

Tr modules are in the casing behind the mini antennas.

Goes to show what you know.  All designs are the same in the sense they use a PCB with the necessary T/R chip design.  These modules were shown here years ago. Carl Kopp also shown them.  Wish he was still posting on his site.

https://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-SV/1L119-Nebo-SVU-TR-Modules-1S.jpg

As you see, they are air cooled modules. Liquid cooling is required for these modules to work in a jet.

Su-57 in Syria has nothing to do with radar at all.  It's not there for sky patrol but launching missile tests on air to ground.

That MiG-35 you are referring to are test unit, not actual production.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25357/MiG_35_Shows_Off_New_AESA_Radar_at_MAKS_2019#.XXvi8D_F1-E