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S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB

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Post n°551

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:35 pm

If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

Of course, let them be on Zircon with scramjet ships first. For now there are delays of all weapons. S-500, 955A, T-14, T-50. Zircon will be on ships maybe in 2030. Another test either canceled or failed.

Hahahaha... I remember in the mid 1980s NATO was talking about their new anti armour missile... the Wasp... it was going to be a mini missile that fighters could carry in bulk... about 7 missiles per weapon pylon to counter Soviet numerical tank superiority.... the air defence vehicle Mauler... the Sgt York... a mish mash upgrade of the Duster... a new replacement for the M109 artillery vehicle, several replacements for the Abrams and Bradley, and lets not get started about all the programmes to replace the M16, let alone the M60 machine gun and the M2 HMG... but lets not dwell in the past... the current Zumwalt destroyer is a dog, as is the LCS programme which after about 35 billion being spent on the two programmes the latter is going to be replaced with a very Gorshkov like frigate... fancy that... and to fix the F-35 debacle they are talking about an upgraded F-15... geeze... will they call it Su-35?

And how about a 13 billion dollar aircraft carrier whose lifts and catapults don't work amongst many other things...

The difference is that Russia is able to delay the Su-57 and the T-14 and the S-500 because the MiG-35 and Su-35 and the T-90AM and of course the S-400 and S-350 are all in production and every bit good enough for the job for the next decade anyway... you really can't say the same for the Americans... they needed new frigates and new destroyers and a new carrier, and the aging fighter fleet that was scaled back because they expected to have a lot more operational F-35s in service... but most F-35s are not operational, so I guess they are saving money there too.

And while we are at it... why are they paying 120 million per F-35 when the best and most capable airforce in the world (Israel) can't even fly over Syrian territory with these invisible bringers of death... F-16s can launch stand off weapons from Lebenon much cheaper than they can.

miketheterrible

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Post n°552

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

miketheterrible Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:43 am

Arrow wrote:

If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

Of course, let them be on Zircon with scramjet ships first. For now there are delays of all weapons. S-500, 955A, T-14, T-50. Zircon will be on ships maybe in 2030. Another test either canceled or failed.

Provide source where it drops to mach 2 - 3 I n atmosphere.

Provide source where Zircon is delayed.

And uh, Borei A isn't delayed at all. Current ship in trials and others being laid down already. So where did you get that bullshit from?

I read Russian news in Russian. Nothing of sort is said that you claim.

Stop making shit up and saying it's fact. Cause it isn't

Isos

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Post n°553

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Isos Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:18 am

If avangard's speed drops down so much in atmosphere then older MIRV are even slower. Buk m2 should be able to intercept them. The fact that both russia and USA use some ICBM like ABMs armed with nuclear warheads to defend their cities since cold war is a proof that you write dumb things.

jhelb

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Post n°554

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

jhelb Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 am

GarryB wrote:They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

https://twitter.com/SimonHoejbjerg/status/1211582726991691777?s=20

Arrow

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Post n°555

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Arrow Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:09 pm

f avangard's speed drops down so much in atmosphere then older MIRV are even slower wrote:

No MIRV flies at a much higher altitude. It enters the atmosphere only in the terminal phase at the end of the flight. Most of the way flies in space.

eridan

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Post n°556

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

eridan Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:20 pm

I am trying to find a paper/brochure/official quote on the max distance of TELs (or TEL group) from the engagement radar for S-400.
Can't seem to find it. I can find that the command post can be 100 km away from the radar, but nothing about TEL to radar distance.

Which is quite strange as I could find such distances for Patriot (post 2001 variant) and SAMP/T without too much hassle.

Can anyone help?

triphosgene

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Post n°557

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

triphosgene Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

https://twitter.com/SimonHoejbjerg/status/1211582726991691777?s=20

Mr. Petersen's reasoning is valid for a purely balistic target only. He actually confirms this fact in one of his replies.

kvs

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Post n°558

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

kvs Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:00 pm

No amount of theorizing will make kinetic kill work. It was obsolete before it was even rendered in hardware. Even a minimal amount
of non-ballistic trajectory behaviour in an ICBM is enough to make its effectiveness negligible. As Postol has been arguing for years.
And such minimal non-ballistic ICBM characteristics have been implemented already in the 1970s. Avangaard is simply on a whole
other plane of reality and totally immune to any kinetic kill interceptor. The Americans have been itching to ditch the INF treaty
since the day they signed it (*) as it would make nuclear warheads on their "kinetic" kill interceptors illegal. Now they can upgrade their
"invincible" junk to take out 1970s ICBMs with better hit ratios. As for Avangaard, they need to go back to the drawing board. But
so far, all I hear is verbal diarrhea and trash talk about how the US is ahead of Russia in hypersonic technology with assorted blowhard
retards like John Bolton actually claiming that Russia has stolen the technology. Drivel by morons for morons.

(*) They signed the INF to get the comprador Gorby to scrap the RSD-10 Pioneer systems. Which he did with zeal.

Azi

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Post n°559

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Azi Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:58 pm

Arrow wrote:
If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

BULLSHIT!

Reentry vehicle slows down at sea level to 4-9M...that's true. Depends on the shape of the reentry vehicle...first reentry vehicle were really slow, modern vehicle have a optimized aerodynamic shape. The speed in terminal phase before reentry into the atmosphere is MINIMUM 20M for EVERY reentry vehicle of an ICBM!

The evolution of Avangard is NOT speed!!! The evolution is that it can maneuver extreme inside the atmosphere. Standard MIRV can only make small corrections, making it of course problematic for ABM systems, but not impossible. It's a hypersonic glide vehicle, not a simple reentry vehicle.

Second point is that most warheads don't explode at ground level, most warheads explode in 3 km height...optimizing the the destruction of the blast and the heat.

And yes...S-300 and S-400 can intercept reentry vehicle in the atmosphere, but the chance is far from good. The S-300 is the only air defense system able to carry nuclear warheads, beside standard ABM systems USSR and USA missile defense). By the way, even the Patriot System is able to intercept reentry vehicles, but the chance for Patriot Systems are very bad, because Patriot intercepts in the very very very last stage of flight, a few km before impact, so no chance if an atmospheric detonation occurs.

Big_Gazza

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Post n°560

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Big_Gazza Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:43 am

Arrow wrote:If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

FFS, the idiotic crap spewing from this troll moron is making me lose the will to live.... Can we all pls just block this fuckwit and stop commenting on his stupid trashtalk and shitposts??????

PhSt

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Post n°561

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

PhSt Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:59 am

FFS, the idiotic crap spewing from this troll moron is making me lose the will to live.... Can we all pls just block this fuckwit and stop commenting on his stupid trashtalk and shitposts??????

He is a typical American troll. His outrageous and fictional comments are meant to provoke people. Best way to deal with him is to hit back America where it costs them a lot. Like start a wildfire somewhere in California or leak American credit card account information in the hackers forums. Any actions that will hurt America is the only thing that matters.

GarryB

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Post n°562

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:03 am

Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

All he appears to be trying to say is that the interceptor does not need to move as fast or as far as the incoming threat, which is pretty self evident.

If you want to block a shot in a basketball game just place your arm over the hoop so the ball wont fit through... you know where the ball is going or has to go though so place your "interceptor" there and it does not need to move far or fast or at all.

In cricket the bowler is trying to knock the bails off and he can do that by hitting the bails or the wickets the bails are sitting on... many bowlers can bowl the ball at speeds of 140-160km/h but the batsman doesn't need to move the bat or his body faster than that to hit the ball... he knows where the bowler is trying to direct the ball and can anticipate how to connect his bat with the ball without even actually seeing it... though obviously keeping your eye on the ball is an important part of batting well.

The point is that an ABM system set up to protect a port or major city means the interceptor missiles don't need to fly thousands of kms... the threats it is defending the target against are coming to it, with predictable non manouvering targets the known speed of the interceptor means fairly precise intercept paths can be calculated and implemented... even with a relatively slow interceptor the incoming speed of the ICBM or SLBM warhead will generate enormous kinetic energy to destroy both.... it is simple 4 dimensional maths where two objects have three coordinates... x, y, and z coordinates in space, and t value in time... two objects occupying the same space x,y,z is the same, then as long as the t they are there then you have a direct hit.... with a Zircon intercept however even if the t is one second out but the x,y,z are the same you have one item at the intercept point with the other arriving 1 second later, so they would be a bare minimum of 3km apart, but more likely 3km + the flight speed of the interceptor in km/s apart... so could be 5 or more kms apart.

The Americans have been itching to ditch the INF treaty
since the day they signed it (*) as it would make nuclear warheads on their "kinetic" kill interceptors illegal.

Any agreement that stops them producing enormous numbers of weapons in their eyes is bad... they could have missiles all over Europe and Asia and the Middle East pointed at Russia, China, and Iran... but those countries have no place near the US to base equivalent systems so why wouldn't they want that?

Of course a few Russian IRBMs in the far north and far east could be used to neutralise any potential for an ABM system in Alaska and Japan or AEGIS cruisers in the Pacific and Arctic oceans forming an ABM shield too.

Of course the claim from Japan over AEGIS Ashore deployed there is not a violation of the INF treaty because it will belong to Japan and Japan hasn't signed the INF treaty, but that is just an admission than AEGIS Ashore is a violation of the INF treaty and it does not matter where it is deployed or who owns it... it is an American made system that violates the agreement.

FFS, the idiotic crap spewing from this troll moron is making me lose the will to live.... Can we all pls just block this fuckwit and stop commenting on his stupid trashtalk and shitposts??????

Important to keep in mind what the kool aid drinkers believe...

He is a typical American troll. His outrageous and fictional comments are meant to provoke people. Best way to deal with him is to hit back America where it costs them a lot. Like start a wildfire somewhere in California or leak American credit card account information in the hackers forums. Any actions that will hurt America is the only thing that matters.

Well is he naive, or is he paid... or young and impressionable...

Was going to say no to that last part but lets face it... it is something from the CIA play book on how to fight the bad guys... how many sugar cane fields in Cuba spontaneously combusted over the years, and how much of Venezuelas money has been frozen in western accounts... never to be seen again...

Isos

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Post n°563

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Isos Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:15 pm

Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

They have BMD project ? Shocked

Like he said the smaller is the interceptor speed the smaller protected area is.

The soviet had a system comparable to "afghanit" and "arena" hard kill but for their silos so that it would intercept any reentry vehicle or bomb trying to hit the missile silo. Much better and simplier than a s-500 but it is only a point defence system.

S-500 will be able to cover a city the size of Moscow so they need to cover around 50 km (radius of 50km not a bubble of 50km diameter). The S-500 can't be inside the city because targets come from above where radar can't see. They will be in the suroundings of the city. And in this case you need a fast interceptor. I would add also that speed of interceptor need to take into account the range at which you will be able to see the target with the engagement radar (not surveillance radar that generally have longer range). If you see it not that far, reaction time is smaller and you need very fast missiles.

jhelb

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Post n°564

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

jhelb Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:40 pm

GarryB wrote: even with a relatively slow interceptor the incoming speed of the ICBM or SLBM warhead will generate enormous kinetic energy to destroy both....

But the incoming RV/Warhead will be much, much larger than the interceptor missile. So even if it hits the interceptor missile it will destroy the interceptor missile and still go through.

Unless of course the interceptor missile itself is roughly the size of the RV or larger than that, then it might be able to carry out a good intercept.

Azi

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Post n°565

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Azi Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:11 am

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote: even with a relatively slow interceptor the incoming speed of the ICBM or SLBM warhead will generate enormous kinetic energy to destroy both....

But the incoming RV/Warhead will be much, much larger than the interceptor missile. So even if it hits the interceptor missile it will destroy the interceptor missile and still go through.

Unless of course the interceptor missile itself is roughly the size of the RV or larger than that, then it might be able to carry out a good intercept.

No! The RV is not a single massive rock, like an asteroid. The RV is a complex technical device and not so robust than you might think. A RV is shielded against heat, but not against kinetic impact.

Even if the heat shield of RV is damaged by something really small, the occuring heat of reentry will damage the structure of RV. The RV will get out of the optimal flight path, the drag increase and the heat increase more. Finally the RV will break apart in the lower parts of the atmosphere. Remember that the surface of the RV is during reentry partially hotter, than the surface of the sun. And the main point is not to disintegrate the RV, the point is to disable it to 100 %...and that's pretty easy to achive with a small kill vehicle.

What makes an RV penetrating objects is the inertia. Same for hypersonic cruise missiles. A Zirkon CM will cut literally through a complete ship but not much further. If a Zirkon CM is hit by stone the size of your hand at 9M, the missile will disintegrate after a few dozen miles.

GarryB

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Post n°566

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:53 am

But the incoming RV/Warhead will be much, much larger than the interceptor missile. So even if it hits the interceptor missile it will destroy the interceptor missile and still go through.

If the interceptor is something like an S-300V then we are talking about 2 tons of rocket... but after the fuel is burned off it is probably closer to 500kgs including a 150-200kg warhead and control surfaces/side thruster rocket engines.

The incoming warhead will be 200kgs or less and will contain a nuclear warhead which is a delicate mix of fissile materials that needs to be slammed together fairly precisely to create critical mass to create an explosion... an unexpected impact is going to shatter it and prevent it from detonating properly... even if it just damages its outer skin the reentry into the atmosphere will rip it to pieces and render it harmless.

Assuming the target is moving at 7km/s even a piece of metal like a washer hitting it will gouge a huge hole into it... which with make it vulnerable when it hits the atmosphere and fragment.

When building a satellite they obviously had problems protecting it from impacts... something coming around the earth in orbit at the same height will have an impact speed double orbital speed because both objects heading in the opposite direction will both be moving at about orbital speed.

How do you protect a satellite when even just a grain of sand sized piece of metal will punch a fist sized hole in armour plate 30cm thick?

Well ironically what you do is based on what happens to the projectile.... the projectile in that impact is vapourised completely... so an aluminium sheet 2mm thick that will be vapourised and the impacting piece of metal will also be vapourised... so after they travel 50cm to the next layer of the satellites structure the material is still moving fast but it is in the form of a light vapour/powder so although it is still moving very fast it is stopped by another 2mm thick sheet of aluminium...

For a ABM however the interceptor is much more substantial than a grain of sand sized object and while it will be vapourised too, there will be enough material to ensure both objects are destroyed to the point that neither will be able to repeat its function...

Unless of course the interceptor missile itself is roughly the size of the RV or larger than that, then it might be able to carry out a good intercept.

Most missile interceptors will be bigger than the targets they will be intercepting... except when trying to stop and object from space... where ABM weapons... even with nuclear warheads would be ineffective.

jhelb

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Post n°567

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

jhelb Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:51 pm

GarryB wrote:
How do you protect a satellite when even just a grain of sand sized piece of metal will punch a fist sized hole in armour plate 30cm thick?

Well ironically what you do is based on what happens to the projectile.... the projectile in that impact is vapourised completely... so an aluminium sheet 2mm thick that will be vapourised and the impacting piece of metal will also be vapourised... so after they travel 50cm to the next layer of the satellites structure the material is still moving fast but it is in the form of a light vapour/powder so although it is still moving very fast it is stopped by another 2mm thick sheet of aluminium...

So basically you are saying that satellites are protected by layers of aluminium sheets ? Something similar to protective armours in tanks, isn't it ?

GarryB

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Post n°568

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:57 am

Some are better protected than others of course, and I would hardly compare the protection to the protection on a tank.

Think closer to the thickness of a car door skin and then half a metre beyond that another thickness of a car door skin.

Making them thicker wont make any difference in terms of protection because it doesn't matter if the outer skin is 2mm thick or 10cm thick even a paint chip will blow through it... making it thicker just adds to the volume of material hitting the inner plate.

For a heavier harder object like a marble size or bigger then neither layer will do very much... it would just blow right through the satellite in an instant...

The point is that sheets of aluminium 2mm thick are relatively light so they don't make the satellite too heavy...

The chances of something hitting the satellite increase with time... the longer it is up there the more chance of hits, and satellites have been recovered from space and examined after a decade in orbit and have been found to be covered in micro meteoroid impacts... the biggest area components obviously being most likely to be hit so things like solar panels or radar dishes... you can't really stop them being hit, all you can do is design them to continue working after multiple hits.

Imagine a direct micrometeoroid hit on the main lense of the hubble space telescope for instance... you can't cover it in armour because that would block the light...

ahmedfire

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Post n°569

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

ahmedfire Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:52 pm

US works on targets for S-400

GarryB

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Post n°570

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:46 am

The USAF are targets for the S-400...

Vann7

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Post n°571

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Vann7 Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:49 pm

Today 23 jan 2020 ,saw a report .. i think was on RT..
on the Russian military ,someone in the military was claiming
they detected with s-400s radars.. (FIVE) F-35 planes flying over iraq.. providing
protection to the american base ,when iran launched its ballistic missile attack.. on them..

The news was about Russia positioning a new S-400 air defense near iraq border..
and how they detected F-35s due to the proximity with iraq.. and they were very happy
of the performance of their radars.. Smile

unfortunately by accident clicked in the wrong button and throw me out of the page..
and when try to return is gone.. the report.. so can't post the link.. lost it..
but this is basically the most important info
on the today report by russian military.. they moved s-400s to near iraq borders..
and they detected 5x F-35s flying near their bases providing cover ..

if anyone find the report.. feel free to post it.. russia have now s-400s near iraq
and detected and tracked five f-35s .. there.. claims the russian military.

by s-400s being close to iraq border will also help russia to fully see the air space of iraq ,without valleys
or mountains obstacles.. and detect dangerous drones of nato ,threatening iranian positions and pass
the information to them.. or directly link their radars images over iraq to iran..

Azi

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Post n°572

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Azi Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:38 pm

Vann7 wrote:
.
.
.
by s-400s being close to iraq border will also help russia to fully see the air space of iraq ,without valleys
or mountains obstacles.. and detect dangerous drones of nato ,threatening iranian positions and pass
the information to them.. or directly link their radars images over iraq to iran..

Iran is not an ally of Russia and will never be in the near future! They will share for sure no data with Iran.

GarryB

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Post n°573

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

GarryB Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:31 am

Iran is not an ally of Russia and will never be in the near future! They will share for sure no data with Iran.

If Russia will share data with Turkey to warn of a coup I would think they would also share air data warning Iran of an air attack...

ahmedfire

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Post n°574

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

ahmedfire Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:27 am

Vann7 wrote:Today 23 jan 2020 ,saw a report .. i think was on RT..
on the Russian military ,someone in the military was claiming
they detected with s-400s radars.. (FIVE) F-35 planes flying over iraq.. providing
protection to the american base ,when iran launched its ballistic missile attack.. on them..

The news was about Russia positioning a new S-400 air defense near iraq border..
and how they detected F-35s due to the proximity with iraq.. and they were very happy
of the performance of their radars..

unfortunately by accident clicked in the wrong button and throw me out of the page..
and when try to return is gone.. the report.. so can't post the link.. lost it..
but this is basically the most important info
on the today report by russian military.. they moved s-400s to near iraq borders..
and they detected 5x F-35s flying near their bases providing cover ..

if anyone find the report.. feel free to post it.. russia have now s-400s near iraq
and detected and tracked five f-35s .. there.. claims the russian military.

by s-400s being close to iraq border will also help russia to fully see the air space of iraq ,without valleys
or mountains obstacles.. and detect dangerous drones of nato ,threatening iranian positions and pass
the information to them.. or directly link their radars images over iraq to iran..

This was said by the Russian Foreign Minister ,It seems the system was deployed in Qamishli Airport " about 900 km from Tehran ".

‘Russian S-400 tracked F-35 jets near Iran-Iraq border’

S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 23 Screen26

Azi

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Post n°575

Re: S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Azi Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:14 pm

GarryB wrote:

Iran is not an ally of Russia and will never be in the near future! They will share for sure no data with Iran.

If Russia will share data with Turkey to warn of a coup I would think they would also share air data warning Iran of an air attack...

Okay maybe you are right, but it's more general data not a real time data. More like..."hey, take care americans are coming". No really target track data.

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