S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

Hole wrote:Don´t be lazy and start producing the next one.

There is not the next one, as they clearly said.
Acquisition is over.

Now is S-350 and S-500 time!

Take a look how ludicrous are Russia s-400s what they call "training" ...




So someone launch a tactical missile ,when they are warned about it, and they intercept
it and that's it..  celebrate a truly dumb exercise completely unrealistic scenario of what will
Russia have to face in a real War ,versus US , versus Israel or a regional crazy power like turkey.

In the case of US and Israel ,they could easily fill the skies of hundreds of kamikazi drones and glide bombs and all those S-400s will not last not even 1 minute in combat ,and completely destroyed by
$100 dollar  cheap kamikazi drones.   This is why they are failing miserably in Syria for 5 years
to stop israel attacks on damascus.. and why they failed to protect armenia territory
and allowed azerbaijan drones strikes to hit day and night both 1) mainland in armenia  and nagorno karabah. and this is why armenia lost hundreds of tanks , but also lost worth of 1 billion in air defenses in their main land too. the only place azerbaijan did not strike was inside russian airbase,
but any plane or helicopter leaving that base was a fair target..  

Russia military have shown how incredibly inefficient is dealing with glide bombs ,swarm of drones and kamikazi drones not only in armenia and nagorno karabah zones but also in Syria too , and if
ukraine receive the same drones that turkey and israel gave to azerbaijan ,the story will not be any different ,total destruction and collapse of the front line in donbass. same with crimea , all those beautiful and totally useless s-400s as front line defenses will be completely destroyed if crimea is attacked by same level of warfare armenia had to deal ,that is mass scale drones attacks ,with electronic warfare confusing jamming Russian air defenses.  mark my words ,with biden in power ,
they will provoke again a new drone war and the Russian military will be humiliated like never before
and those s-400s in russian military bases will be completely destroyed.. and i will be in this forum
to remember everyone... i told you .   Without proper defenses against swarm attacks of drones ,
but also high altitude stealth gliders which NATO is also working , those s-400s will become totally
useless as much as Putin is today as a leader ,because were never designed to counter that job ,since russia military NEVER ,absolutely never train their air defenses to handle the same kind of modern warfare they had to face in armenia war. So how can they know their s-400s can protect any place is never tested under -real life- war scenarios? like i said NATO will not foolisly send waves of f-35 and f-22s and f-16s against russian air defenses.. they will use their cheap swarm of drones with artificial intelligence to do the job combined with their 300km long range rail guns artillery attacks ,that they will park in bordering nations and will hit with total impunity 100% of russian airdefenses ,
whether they are TOR or pantsir or s-300s or s-400s or even s-500s, Russia have a major vulnerability in their security , and rockets interceptors is the incorrect way to deal with massive swarm of drones.  The only way Russia have to stop those attacks is using nuclear weapons against
the aggressor and killing civilians in the process,but this still is a very weak response . Germany is working with advanced anti air automatic computer guided artillery designed to target small targets like drones in the thousands. Israel and US are deploying lasers mounted infantry vehicles to target swarm of drones. The only one doing nothing against this threat is Russia military , they totally out of
touch with reality with how modern wars will be fought. All Russia is working is how to counter ballistic nukes in space , which you can't neither defend properly any way ,versus thousands of missile strikes. Russia military ,needs to work with realistic scenarios , things they have a chance to
stop and not with unrealistic scenarios , of intercepting just 1 tactical missile with an s-400.. or intercepting just 1 trident in space.

Amusing rant there Vann...

You do understand that the exercise is not completely shown from start to end in these videos, and that training is not just meet here, launch a missile at one target and then go home.

Also notice they will be launching from inside designated firing ranges which by definition have to be in the middle of nowhere to prevent bits of missile landing on some villiage.

Normally the exercise starts early and it starts with the location of where the exercise will take place... which could be 500km away from where the unit is based. When they arrive they have to set up and they have no idea of what is coming and from which direction it is coming from.

Training exercises are usually rather creative and testing.

In the case of US and Israel ,they could easily fill the skies of hundreds of kamikazi drones and glide bombs and all those S-400s will not last not even 1 minute in combat ,and completely destroyed by
$100 dollar cheap kamikazi drones.

Hahahaha... yes, of course.... Russia sends a battery of S-400s to sit out in the middle of nowhere with no defending smaller SAMs or other equipment... so let me ask you... if the Russians are so bloody stupid and their SAMs are so easy to defeat... why does Syria still have air defence systems in Syria... surely Israel has wiped them all out with their 50 cent drones and super weapons.

Plus, if Azerbaijan was attacking Russian forces in Armenia you do understand that Azerbaijan forces would have been hammered and wiped out just with stand off weapons from the Caspian Sea... from what I have read the Azerbaijanis didn't actually do that great on the ground and suffered some very serious casualties... so while they managed to take some ground they certainly paid for it in blood. It was not the drone supremacy war some seem to like to pretend it is.

The really amusing thing is taht the US and Israel would probably be rather more vulnerable to drone attack than Russia or her allies but you ignore that.

You also ignore the fact that it was the supreme strength and performance of the Russian air defence systems that required HATO and Israel to switch from manned platforms to robots and standoff weapons...

[quote="Vann7"]

Take a look how ludicrous are Russia s-400s what they call "training" ...

So someone launch a tactical missile ,when they are warned about it, and they intercept
it and that's it..  celebrate a truly dumb exercise completely unrealistic scenario of what will
Russia have to face in a real War ,versus US , versus Israel or a regional crazy power like turkey.

That's a load of bunk actually. Anti aircraft missiles are not skeet shooting. The weapons are smart. Even the 1960's S-75 was smart. All these crews do is carry out an order of operations the minute something is picked up. The weapons do the work.

  This is why they are failing miserably in Syria for 5 years
to stop israel attacks on damascus..

You didn't know that Russia has been allowing Israel to do targeted strikes in Syria ? And that time things got strained, a F-16i fell out of the sky.

the Israeli Air Force regularly strike militants from Lebanon's Hezbollah group, which supports Assad and has close ties to Iran. As Russia has been actively cooperating with Tehran within the framework of Syrian reconciliation, Israel has expressed its concerns about Tehran’s growing influence in the region.

In the fall of 2015, in order to safeguard the two countries’ military from accidental clashes in Syria, Israel and Russia established a deconfliction mechanism, and the Israeli General Staff set up a special coordination center to this aim.


and why they failed to protect armenia territory
and allowed azerbaijan drones strikes to hit day and night both 1) mainland in armenia  and nagorno karabah. and this is why armenia lost hundreds of tanks , but also lost worth of 1 billion in air defenses in their main land too. the only place azerbaijan did not strike was inside russian airbase,
but any plane or helicopter leaving that base was a fair target..  

Russia military have shown how incredibly inefficient is dealing with glide bombs ,swarm of drones and kamikazi drones not only in armenia and nagorno karabah zones but also in Syria too

The US quietly ended its air campaign in Syria when the s-400 arrived. Khmeimim Air Base and also Hmeimim Air Base have been drone attacked a few times over the years. 99% of them have been repelled.

and if
ukraine receive the same drones that turkey and israel gave to azerbaijan ,the story will not be any different ,total destruction and collapse of the front line in donbass. same with crimea ,...................be completely destroyed if crimea is attacked by same level of warfare armenia .......nes attacks ,with electronic warfare confusing jamming Russian air defenses.  mark my words ,with biden in power ,

You seem to think drones were invented yesterday. Armenia and Azerbaijan are 2 small weak states fighting a turf war. This is what allowed it to be a radio controlled drone war. Do you really think that Azerbaijan would have attacked Armenia if Armenia had Kaliber cruise missiles ?

they will provoke again a new drone war and the Russian military will be humiliated like never before
and those s-400s in russian military bases will be completely destroyed.. and i will be in this forum
to remember everyone... i told you .

 

Ummm no. Russia has cruise missiles with a 4500 Km range and nuclear weapons. This is why Biden is not going to unleash a Azerbaijan style radio controlled war on Russia.

Backman wrote:...
You seem to think drones were invented yesterday. Armenia and Azerbaijan are 2 small weak states fighting a turf war. This is what allowed it to be a radio controlled drone war. Do you really think that Azerbaijan would have attack
...

It wouldn't matter if they had cruise missiles. The Armenian government didn't even bother to defend Nagorno-Karabakh properly.
Armenia has Iskander missiles. Given the distances involved they could strike anywhere in Azerbaijan had they wanted to.
Their government was just incompetent. Lack of moral fibre.

lancelot wrote:

Backman wrote:...
You seem to think drones were invented yesterday. Armenia and Azerbaijan are 2 small weak states fighting a turf war. This is what allowed it to be a radio controlled drone war. Do you really think that Azerbaijan would have attack
...

It wouldn't matter if they had cruise missiles. The Armenian government didn't even bother to defend Nagorno-Karabakh properly.
Armenia has Iskander missiles. Given the distances involved they could strike anywhere in Azerbaijan had they wanted to.
Their government was just incompetent. Lack of moral fibre.

Indeed, there's no need for any other explanation, all other aspects of discussion are complete bullshit at this point.

There is not the next one, as they clearly said.
Acquisition is over.

Now is S-350 and S-500 time!

No, they meant they fullfilled the current contract, not that all acquisition is over for the S-400s.

They are still making S-300 missiles for export for goodness sake, there is no way they could stop making S-400.

S-500 is going to be big and not cheap, they are going to be used together with S-400 in strategically important areas, and S-350 is good but it is the 60-150km range system that works together with the 250km and 400km range S-400 system to provide proper area defence.

The S-400 takes down the aircraft and the S-350 takes down aircraft and munitions and standoff weapons... while Pantsir or TOR will protect both from SEAD weapons.

Indeed, there's no need for any other explanation, all other aspects of discussion are complete bullshit at this point.

The Armenian government made some choices that alienated friends and made them vulnerable, and the Azeris used Turkey to take advantage of the situation.

Armenia damaged its ties with Russia for ties with a west that does not care about its situation, and lost some territory it held in NK. Azeris gained some of the territory it wanted back with support from Turkey without burning its relationship with Russia. Russia negotiated a new peace for the region that shifted positions on the ground, but not as far as military positions have obviously shifted... the other side has upped their game and from his own admission Armenia is dropping the ball with planes that have no weapons and jammers that don't work they claim.

The biggest loser seems to be Turkey... used by the Azeris to win the conflict, but no seat at the table discussing terms...

All complex and totally off topic so continue in another more relevant thread please.

SAM S-400 "Triumph": 30 regimental sets at the end of 2020

The combat service of the S-400 "Triumph" anti-aircraft missile system began in the 606th anti-aircraft missile regiment, in which, on August 6, 2007, the first, still pre-production, division of the S-400 air defense missile system took up combat duty. The second pre-production division was received by the 606th air defense missile regiment in 2009. Subsequently, both pre-production divisions were transferred to training centers.

Then serial deliveries began within the framework of the "State Program for the Development of Arms for 2011-2020". In total, within the program, it was planned to transfer 56 divisions of the S-400 air defense systems. In fact, by the beginning of 2020, the Almaz-Antey VKO concern transferred to the Ministry of Defense more than 60 divisions in 25 regimental kits (the regimental set of enlarged personnel transferred on February 15, 2019, the second in 2019, became the first to enter the DB in 2020), 4 more kits were donated in 2020.

In total, by the beginning of 2021, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation received 30 regimental sets of S-400 air defense systems (including the pre-production), and 28 regiments took up combat duty, another 1 pre-production kit was in training centers.

Contrary to misconceptions, only 5 regiments out of 28 are in the Moscow region, the rest of the regiments are on alert in other regions of Russia and in the Syrian Arab Republic.

The basic composition of the S-400 air defense missile system division:

8-12 transport and launchers 5P85TE2 / 5P85SE2

Radar complex 91Н6E

Multifunctional radar 92N6E

Command post 55K6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieSaUW6rTr8&feature=emb_logo

NOTE: math not adding up on the video. They are missing the 568th regiment at Samara with 2 battalions. So 1 training unit, 1 Syria unit and 28 combat air defense regiments.

LMFS wrote:Alexey Leonkov answers to the claimed recent "discovery" of S-400 weaknesses by NATO:

https://tass.ru/opinions/9724221

S-400s was never designed to counter swarm of dozens stealthy micro drones with jamming and decoys , you need massive area fire ,to target swarm of drones . S-300s and s-400 are the incorrect weapon to fight small massive attacks drones that are very fast . like those israeli loitering munition.

So it will have not matter if russia was the one directly protecting nagorno karabah airspace
with their s-400s ,s-300s and pantsirs and tors.. they will have been obliterated there with
saturation attacks. pantsirs in service have 12 missiles? and they fire 2 per target.. so any attacks of more than 6 drones is a guarantee kill of any russia missile based air defense from s-400 to tors and pantsirs. same with s-500s.

The only weapon Russia have that do have a chance ,if produced in very big numbers , are their
infantry vehicles anti air ,multi purpose 57mm artillery.. that just this month december 2020
they are introducing to service.


at least 30x -40x Derivatsiya-PVO covering an area like nagorno karabah ,with very well trained staff fighting drones ,could have stopped the desire of turkey and azerbaijan and israel to continue sending drones..  



Unfortunately don't think Russia will produce many of them ,they will need at least 50x of them
for peace of mind , in a place like armenia or syria , and about 500x of them to fight NATO or israel
in a mass scale drone war unleashed by them on russia.     also emp munition artillery and electronic warfare and lasers mounted in sheep trucks  to blind drones could also help.

they have 8km altitude strike distance however ,so will be vulnerable to drones flying at 9k altitude or more. Turkey drones that they used in armenia with flight ceiling of 7km will be vulnerable but not the NATO and israel drones ,that have many that easily fly at 10km+. on top swarm of drones from US are generally launched from f-16s planes or any other from very high altitude ,and glide to the
target. All said , the above 57mm anti drone artillery is a step in right direction ,but is not enough
to protect kalingrad or crimea or russian base in syria from NATO and israel.

at least 30x -40x Derivatsiya-PVO covering an area like nagorno karabah ,with very well trained staff fighting drones ,could have stopped the desire of turkey and azerbaijan and israel to continue sending drones..

The 4 su-30SM, if they had weapons like kh-25P and r-77, would have sent Azerbaijan in stone age.

Defensive weapons won't make you win a war.

Question for everyone. There was a post in the past year outlining planned procurement of Tor-M2, BUK-3M and S-400 over the next 3-4 years. Have searched but unable to locate, does anyone remember where it was posted?

EDIT: Found it but it doesn't include the S-400 only the Tor, Buk and S-300V4.

franco wrote:SAM S-400 "Triumph": 30 regimental sets at the end of 2020

The combat service of the S-400 "Triumph" anti-aircraft missile system began in the 606th anti-aircraft missile regiment, in which, on August 6, 2007, the first, still pre-production, division of the S-400 air defense missile system took up combat duty. The second pre-production division was received by the 606th air defense missile regiment in 2009. Subsequently, both pre-production divisions were transferred to training centers.

Then serial deliveries began within the framework of the "State Program for the Development of Arms for 2011-2020". In total, within the program, it was planned to transfer 56 divisions of the S-400 air defense systems. In fact, by the beginning of 2020, the Almaz-Antey VKO concern transferred to the Ministry of Defense more than 60 divisions in 25 regimental kits (the regimental set of enlarged personnel transferred on February 15, 2019, the second in 2019, became the first to enter the DB in 2020), 4 more kits were donated in 2020.

In total, by the beginning of 2021, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation received 30 regimental sets of S-400 air defense systems (including the pre-production), and 28 regiments took up combat duty, another 1 pre-production kit was in training centers.

Contrary to misconceptions, only 5 regiments out of 28 are in the Moscow region, the rest of the regiments are on alert in other regions of Russia and in the Syrian Arab Republic.

The basic composition of the S-400 air defense missile system division:

8-12 transport and launchers 5P85TE2 / 5P85SE2

Radar complex 91Н6E

Multifunctional radar 92N6E

Command post 55K6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieSaUW6rTr8&feature=emb_logo

NOTE: math not adding up on the video. They are missing the 568th regiment at Samara with 2 battalions. So 1 training unit, 1 Syria unit and 28 combat air defense regiments.

30 regiments of S-400 also mean at least 30 batteries of Pantsir-S and this bring at least 180 Pantsir-S in VKS.

Didn't the Crimea and Kaliningrad each get an additional Pantsir-S battery?

franco wrote:Didn't the Crimea and Kaliningrad each get an additional Pantsir-S battery?

That is why I wrote at least. I think they have some independent batteries as well like those in Arctic islands, etc. So we could asume, that VKS have now around 200 Pantsirs. Not bad at all.

pantsirs in service have 12 missiles? and they fire 2 per target.. so any attacks of more than 6 drones is a guarantee kill of any russia missile based air defense from s-400 to tors and pantsirs.

Considering how long you have been visiting this site it is very disappointing how easily western bullshit convinces you with their propaganda...

Each Pantsir vehicle normally has 12 missiles plus two twin barrel 30mm cannon. Pantsir vehicles never operate on their own in Russian forces... they work together in batteries of 6 vehicles, so that means 72 drones at a bare minimum would be needed to overwhelm that one battery assuming they don't have specialist anti drone missiles where one older missile can be replaced with four new smaller missiles... meaning up to 288 missiles ready to fire.... plus 12 twin barrel 30mm cannon... soon to be armed with airburst HE shells that would be ideal for taking down small light aerial drones.

SAM batteries never operate on their own and are linked in to the Integrated Air Defence System... which means they get warning and target information and know exactly what is flying about.

They also have other support equipment including jammers and dazzlers and simply smoke generators which can also defeat all sorts of drone types.

they have 8km altitude strike distance however ,so will be vulnerable to drones flying at 9k altitude or more

Pantsir and TOR can engage targets to 15km altitude... and BUK to about 30km altitude... drones operating at such high altitudes would be terribly vulnerable to enemy aircraft...

on top swarm of drones from US are generally launched from f-16s planes or any other from very high altitude ,and glide to the

Those glide drones would need to fly 400km if they don't want their F-16s shot down... and the first drone attack on Russia could have the immediate response of an Iskander and Kh-101 attack on the HATO country it came from...

All said , the above 57mm anti drone artillery is a step in right direction ,but is not enough
to protect kalingrad or crimea or russian base in syria from NATO and israel.

You can't invade a country and take land with drones alone... Kaliningrad and Crimea are not Nagorno Karabach. There are large Russian forces in both places that would lead to serious HATO losses if they tried anything.... and having vehicles there with 57mm guns won't make a huge load of difference because HATO attacking Russian territory means nuclear response. Ukraine attacking Crimea means destroyed Ukraine.

Derivatsiya will not be the only AAA in a Russian division. New vehicles from the premier T-14 to the humble BMP-1AM being introduced would have day/night sighting and fully stabilization in two planes as armament standard, and thus could engage even the elusive micro UAVs on their own. The more expensive vehicles are also to feature extensive datalink capability, significantly enhancing their potential as ersatz AAA.

Exactly... all their new armoured vehicles with 30mm cannon and target auto trackers and thermal sights and airburst shells suddenly become very formidable air defence weapons against drones... and the situational awareness of most drones is pathetic... so it probably wont even see what hit it.... they will just suddenly lose signal.

The 57mm air defence guns will be vastly more capable, but Pine/SOSNA will have an even more dramatic effect.... the 57mm guns will be useful against the lighter drones with airburst shells likely shattering small light drones from 4-5m miss distances, but the bigger heavier drones that carry weapons would be the ideal sort of target for the SOSNA... no radar... totally passive sensors... jam proof guidance... and enormous missile velocity... the target wont see it coming... and relatively cheap too.

I think war in Artsakh brings many to wrong conclusions. Artsakh is small and have only 150.000 people and was attacked by Azerbaijan, which have 10 million people with help from Turkey, Pakistan, Israel and terrorists from Syria and Libya. However, they succede to defend Artsakh for 40 days until Russian army come there and secure them. Artsakh air defense was not integrated and was formed with old soviet complexes as Osa-AKM, export ex-Yordanian Osa-AK, Strela-10, AA guns and some even older SAM-4 and SAM-6. Because of Pashinyan, Artsakh air defense have very limited support from Armenia. On the other hand, Azeri drones were supported by modern air force, modern ECM complexes, artillery, etc.

Modern IADS is totally different thing to what we could see in Artsakh and even there they did a good job considering circumstances. Russian IADS doesn't depend only on radars to detect air treats. They have different ELINT complexes as Kolchuga, Orion, Avtobaza,... wich passively triangulate any source of emmiting. Drones have constant communication with control post to receive operators commands and to deliver video picture,... ELINT complexes could precisely triangulate drones and command posts and modern air defense could engage them on long distances without turning on their radars and suppress them with jammers. Air burst ammunition in BMPs and BTRs is another carpet of defense against drones. BMPT and Uran-9 robots would be also very good in anti drone operations. As I said, ELINT complexes also triangilate positions of drone command posts, which could be immidiately engaged by artillery, cruise missiles, etc. Drones are very vulnerable without proper protection and support.

Very good points Medo.

Another factor of BTRs and BMPs carrying modern optics, good communications systems and air burst 30mm cannon ammo is that while MANPADS would be effective most of the time they are not often widely distributed amongst forces... when every BMP and BTR can pop a target out of the sky with a short burst of fire then the risks to air targets become much much greater... especially when ground forces start using proper camouflage techniques.

A BMP or BTR with airburst shells wont give away its position to aircraft by using radar, though communications will suggest to the enemy that there are enemy forces there actually pinpointing specific locations is what you would use drones for and with proper air defence support that will rapidly become costly in drones... especially if they are clever and have perimeter BMPs and BTRs that receive target data but don't transmit and give away their presence...

What Azerbaijan did is not far from what HATO would like to do, but NK is nothing like what Syria could do to stop them let alone what Russia could do now... and as we have mentioned... with the widespread introduction of airburst 30mm cannon shells for the BMPs and BTRs and also air defence vehicles like Tunguska and Pantsir, the introduction of improved Pine (SOSNA) missiles as well as 57mm air defence guns the situation for enemy drones over Russian forces is going to become pretty dire.

Armenia bought 35 Ex-Jordanian Osa-AKM systems, i hear they also had TOR-M2KM but they were very few and can't cover Arktash alone, it's funny to hear Turkish media say it's a victory over Russian air defense when nothing could be further than the truth .

Rasisuki Nebia wrote:Armenia bought 35 Ex-Jordanian Osa-AKM systems, i hear they also had TOR-M2KM but they were very few and can't cover Arktash alone, it's funny to hear Turkish media say it's a victory over Russian air defense when nothing could be further than the truth .

That's why the Turkish military is buying a 2nd round of S-400's! Even Erdogan want's to localize some of it's production on Turkish soil!

If Turkey can walk through Russian Air Defence systems so easily then why do Israeli F-35s not fly freely over Syrian airspace?

Why does America refuse to allow Turkish F-35s fly in airspace with Turkish S-400s?

Why is Turkey buying more S-400s?

The situation in NK with Azerbaijani forces is comparable to Houtie forces in Saudi Arabian airspace... it can be amusing but it is not totally relevant in any other situation because these situations involve some very specific fuckups that are not relevant to other users.