Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

Indian Navy to upgrade 10 Kamov Ka-28 ASW helicopters with IAI Skimmer upgrade packages which will improve their capabilities manifold, reports Israeli media.

So this is what we have- 18 P-8Is, 24 MH-60Rs, 4 Kamorta class, 14 Ka-28s and 16 Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft corvette.

India Navy's ASW capability seems to be quite robust.




And there is this - Long-range Supersonic Missile Assisted Torpedo or SMART (was tested earlier today). This means the Indian Navy also has the ability to locate and fix ASW targets at extreme distances.

It isn't.

We seen Indias capabilities in Pakistan from that debacle with a shutdown of Indian AF equipment. No uniformity and thus they can't even communicate with each other.

India still has not learned a single thing it seems.

It will track indian subs like their israeli AD systems tracked indian helicopters.

It's nice to have indians as a client. You can sell them the same shit 10 times with increasing the price everytime.

Not sure where all this hate comes from you two, but even if you logic was correct you would still be wrong.

The current state of Indian land and air based IADS is nothing at all to do with their navy which is a different force completely.

Past incidents do not give us any indication as to what sort of performance to expect from them, so it would be really hard to impartially guess.

Having said that a nice upgrade of the Helix is a good idea... I wonder how it compares with the Russian upgrade of their Helix helicopters.

This SMART weapon is just a version of the Club ballistic anti sub rocket that the Soviets had in service in the early 1980s.

A clever weapon that can be loaded into UKSK launch tubes... their current model is called Ovtet I believe and is a mach 2.5 50km range ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to the target area much faster than a conventional torpedo and without warning.

GarryB wrote:Not sure where all this hate comes from you two, but even if you logic was correct you would still be wrong.

I do not see any hate, however what I do see is a mediocre forum member who posts stuff that only shows how low IQ the people of his country are.

GarryB wrote:This SMART weapon is just a version of the Club ballistic anti sub rocket that the Soviets had in service in the early 1980s.

A clever weapon that can be loaded into UKSK launch tubes... their current model is called Ovtet I believe and is a mach 2.5 50km range ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to the target area much faster than a conventional torpedo and without warning.

What's clever out here? A rather expensive solution - to keep a target lock-on over 500-600km on an underwater sub. How many SMART rounds can the Indian Navy fire? A salvo of SMART missiles with 500km range + seekers + DL etc - would be extremely expensive. Unlike RBU or ASROC

Looks like an ultra long-range version of RBU rockets, but the latter are cheap.

Not sure where all this hate comes from you two, but even if you logic was correct you would still be wrong.

The current state of Indian land and air based IADS is nothing at all to do with their navy which is a different force completely.

No hate just realism. Their corrupted leaders spend billions and billions in useless western shit while their 1.3 billion people are litteraly living in their own shit.

Their navy use diiferent equipement just line their air force. Same suppliers. Why do you think it will work better ? It won't.

We saw the results of their air force against 10 outdated panistani fighters. Let's see how it will face chinese integrated systems.

I do not see any hate, however what I do see is a mediocre forum member who posts stuff that only shows how low IQ the people of his country are.

That is racially based abuse... you are getting a five day rest from this forum for that BS.

He is providing relevant information to this thread, in this case you are abusing him because of his ethnicity... right now he is a useful member and you are NOT.

Think about that over the next 5 days.

What's clever out here? A rather expensive solution - to keep a target lock-on over 500-600km on an underwater sub. How many SMART rounds can the Indian Navy fire? A salvo of SMART missiles with 500km range + seekers + DL etc - would be extremely expensive. Unlike RBU or ASROC

The advantage it creates is that not every vessel and platform needs to carry such weapons, so you might have ships operating in your waters armed with a range of weapons but most don't need to carry anti sub weapons... when one platform detects and confirms the presence of an enemy sub it can pass that information to the nearest ship or sub with the SMART missile and they can launch the attack on the enemy sub.

The enemy sub might detect a few India ships nearby but could never detect this missile launch and would not know it is under attack until the torpedo splashes into the water within a few kilometres of sub...

In comparison a nearby ship launching a conventional torpedo from 20-30km away would give several minutes of warning as the sound of the torpedo moves at 1.2km/s in water.

Looks like an ultra long-range version of RBU rockets, but the latter are cheap.

It seems to be an Ovtet with a more powerful rocket motor.

Their corrupted leaders spend billions and billions in useless western shit while their 1.3 billion people are litteraly living in their own shit.

More than 70% of their military stuff is Soviet or Russian, and some of those people live in cities, rather than ankle deep on the farm.

Their navy use diiferent equipement just line their air force. Same suppliers. Why do you think it will work better ? It won't.

If you actually have information as proof then I would love to read it, but it seems to just be opinion... and uninformed opinion at that.

We saw the results of their air force against 10 outdated panistani fighters. Let's see how it will face chinese integrated systems.

We certainly did, but what has this to do with the Indian Navy. Equally if Indian air defences are not amazing, how can you assume Chinese systems are any better? We see lots of copies of all sorts of different systems on parade but what is actually in service and how effective is it?

China has no better history of experience than India...

GarryB wrote:Not sure where all this hate comes from you two, but even if you logic was correct you would still be wrong.

Orientation. I suspect they are Russian/Europeans.

For better or for worse, words like Africa, India conjure up negative images in the mind of most people in Russia/Europe, just like it's here in the States.

Last I was there in Russia in 2003, Indians are called gypsies just like in eastern Europe. Gypsies are hated across Europe.

Back to the topic - what this new weapon reflects is that India's SSN and SSK projects are running terribly behind schedule and they have not developed a torpedo that can be fired from a sub.So if they have to deal with a bigger power like China they have to think about asymmetric means. Hence, this new torpedo.

We certainly did, but what has this to do with the Indian Navy. Equally if Indian air defences are not amazing, how can you assume Chinese systems are any better? We see lots of copies of all sorts of different systems on parade but what is actually in service and how effective is it?

China has no better history of experience than India

Well their navy uses israeli made AD with russian made ones. They choppers and fighters are of european/US and russian origins.

The same as for their air force and ground based air defence.

During their only military operation since long time ago they manage to loose one fighter because its communication with the rest of the fleet was shitty and they lost one mi-17 because a hundred km away an israeli system confused it for a pakistani f-16.

Same stuff is on their boats so it will be the same. Just logic.

China may lack the quality but at least they have numbers and their system are integreted and done with their own standards. India takes left and right from anyone with no strategy so that corrupt people can get their money.

Isos wrote:
During their only military operation since long time ago they manage to loose one fighter because its communication with the rest of the fleet was shitty

They lacked an operational data link. Since then thousands of Software Defined Radios have been purchased. IAF lost a Mig 21 because PAF jammed its comm. But then Pakistan lost an aircraft as well despite having a dedicated data link.

Isos wrote:and they lost one mi-17 because a hundred km away an israeli system confused it for a pakistani f-16.

The Mi 17 had not activated its IFF. Natural for Indian SAM units to consider it a foe.

Isos wrote: Same stuff is on their boats so it will be the same. Just logic.

Navy has their own dedicated data link.

For better or for worse, words like Africa, India conjure up negative images in the mind of most people in Russia/Europe, just like it's here in the States.

Obviously for worse, writing off an entire ethnic group or continent is just ignorance... not that they will all be angels, but they can hardly all be devils either... they are people...

Last I was there in Russia in 2003, Indians are called gypsies just like in eastern Europe. Gypsies are hated across Europe.

I had a friend who had a jet black dog that he called nigger, now I am sure most white people reading this probably squirmed and got uncomfortable, but if he was using it as a racial abuse term I would definitely agree, but he loved that dog and he cried when it got killed.

Call him a racist if you want but it doesn't stick because he is maori.

Back to the topic - what this new weapon reflects is that India's SSN and SSK projects are running terribly behind schedule and they have not developed a torpedo that can be fired from a sub.So if they have to deal with a bigger power like China they have to think about asymmetric means. Hence, this new torpedo.

I totally disagree, this ballistic rocket delivered torpedo, if it is like Ovtet then it can be launched from a torpedo tube of a vertical launch tube on a sub or ship, and it enables enormous sea coverage of vessels in the Indian Navy, because the target data can come from any platform or sea bed based array, or aircraft.

Another factor is the enormous range which essentially dictates having a network system of data and target sharing between platforms and assets in the navy for it to work properly which is a huge step forward for any navy...

Well their navy uses israeli made AD with russian made ones. They choppers and fighters are of european/US and russian origins.

{sarcasm_mode} Well yes you are right.... Israel and Russia have to be the worst sources of air defence equipment, and helicopters and fighters made in Europe and the US and Russia are all bullshit... they would be better off with no air defence and no helicopters and fighters... can't they afford all the good stuff made in Fiji and Samoa?{/sarcasm_mode}

The same as for their air force and ground based air defence.

You do appreciate that most of Eastern Europe has a mix of Soviet/Russian, European, and US equipment and aircraft and weapons?

I guess HATO must be shit too with all that complex integration bollocks they have to go through with every token weapon system they buy to succour favour from the maker/seller... like the greasy little suckups they are.

During their only military operation since long time ago they manage to loose one fighter because its communication with the rest of the fleet was shitty and they lost one mi-17 because a hundred km away an israeli system confused it for a pakistani f-16.

A few years ago a US Marine for lost a vehicle with more than half a dozen men killed... what these people do is dangerous and making hasty decisions on what you think happened leads to hasty conclusions that honestly are not worth very much.

Same stuff is on their boats so it will be the same. Just logic.

They have MiG-21s and Mi-17s in their navy?

China may lack the quality but at least they have numbers and their system are integreted and done with their own standards.

Do they work?

When was the last time they actually tested them in a realistic environment?

Having an advantage in numbers was useful in Korea, but not so much before that in WWII against Japan nor against Vietnam later on...

I realise they are not idiots, but are they learning the right lessons from the experience of others and are they correctly assessing their potential enemies, their strengths and weaknesses?

India takes left and right from anyone with no strategy so that corrupt people can get their money.

You can't blame corruption for everything... otherwise the US military couldn't get out of bed in the morning...

The Mi 17 had not activated its IFF. Natural for Indian SAM units to consider it a foe.

Which is not an indication of anything in itself... just after Desert Storm was over a couple of Blackhawks were flying near Iraq with some bigwigs onboard and they crossed a border but didn't change IFF code so an AWACS sent a couple of F-15s out to investigate... they thought they might be Hinds so they roared past at high speed and never got closer than 5km because Hinds are so dangerous... decided they were Hinds and shot both helicopters down...

GarryB wrote:This SMART weapon is just a version of the Club ballistic anti sub rocket that the Soviets had in service in the early 1980s.

A clever weapon that can be loaded into UKSK launch tubes... their current model is called Ovtet I believe and is a mach 2.5 50km range ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to the target area much faster than a conventional torpedo and without warning.

So is the Ovtet basically a Club cruise missile that delivers a torpedo to the target area?

Yes.

No.

It is a solid rocket ballistic rocket that delivers a torpedo to the locale of the enemy sub.

It is a replacement for the 91ER1...



The UKSK launcher, with from right to left the subsonic Calibre cruise missile... (3,000km range in the original models but upgraded to 4,500km range in the improved  enlarged models that fill the tube better... the original missiles were designed for use from torpedo tubes so when launched from the UKSK launcher which takes up to 750mm Onyx and Zircon missiles there is empty unused space with the original missile), then we have the pointed nose mach 3 long range cruise missile Club that flys subsonically to the radar horizon of the target and then launches a solid rocket mach 3 payload to zip through the defences at very low altitude, and next is the Onyx rocket ramjet powered mach 2.5 anti ship missile, and last is the pointed ballistic supersonic 91ER1 Soviet equivalent of ASROC or SUBROC.




Here they are out of their launcher, left to right are the two models of 91ER1/2 and beside them the two anti ship Calibrs... one subsonic and one mach 3 terminal supersonic but both fly subsonic to the target area.

With a range of 500km the SMART might use a long range subsonic cruise missile to fly the torpedo to the target area like the Russian model delivers a solid rocket propelled anti ship missile, but the Otvet is a ballistic rocket that moves at mach 2.5 to the target area... probably 50-60km from the launcher.

GarryB wrote:It is a replacement for the 91ER1...

I do not know what the replacement of 91ER1 is called but 91ER1 is superior to the ASROC.

Indian Navy conducted a test of the home grown 50 km range NASM missile. IMO, a helo won't be able to come 50 km of a ship so probably this missile is designed to neutralize swarm attacks by missile boats

Sujoy wrote:Indian Navy conducted a test of the home grown 50 km range NASM missile. IMO, a helo won't be able to come 50 km of a ship so probably this missile is designed to neutralize swarm attacks by missile boats

Plenty of ship don't have SAM with more than 20km range. For better armed ones they have Brahmos.

Pakistan has no ship based AD that can threaten a chopper 50km away.

Isos wrote:

Sujoy wrote:Indian Navy conducted a test of the home grown 50 km range NASM missile. IMO, a helo won't be able to come 50 km of a ship so probably this missile is designed to neutralize swarm attacks by missile boats

Pakistan has no ship based AD that can threaten a chopper 50km away.

I do not know which missiles the Type 054P has. But some of the available missiles should have more range than that.
It is basically a Chinese Buk clone.

Indian Navy released this video today to suggest they can neutralize low flying targets. Shtil-1 SAM launched from a Talwar class frigate.

Unlike the Grigorovich class that uses the more advanced Active radar homing missile 9M317MA, Talwar class still uses 9M317M anti-aircraft missiles

That is the older SA-17 BUK related SAM as used on the Sovremmeny class ships... it is not as old as the SA-11 original BUKs, and is quite capable against a range of targets and threats at low to medium altitudes including HARM type missiles.

The arm launcher limits its rate of engagement but it is a very reasonable missile system.

GarryB wrote:That is the older SA-17 BUK related SAM as used on the Sovremmeny class ships... it is not as old as the SA-11 original BUKs, and is quite capable against a range of targets and threats at low to medium altitudes including HARM type missiles.

The arm launcher limits its rate of engagement but it is a very reasonable missile system.

But this missile is not as advanced as the 9M317MA that we see on the Grigorovich class, isn't it?

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:That is the older SA-17 BUK related SAM as used on the Sovremmeny class ships... it is not as old as the SA-11 original BUKs, and is quite capable against a range of targets and threats at low to medium altitudes including HARM type missiles.

The arm launcher limits its rate of engagement but it is a very reasonable missile system.

But this missile is not as advanced as the 9M317MA that we see on the Grigorovich class, isn't it?

No you are correct it is an older gen missile. I know you guys are getting a couple more talwar class frigates I wonder if the schtil with vls will be included.

TMA1 wrote:

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:That is the older SA-17 BUK related SAM as used on the Sovremmeny class ships... it is not as old as the SA-11 original BUKs, and is quite capable against a range of targets and threats at low to medium altitudes including HARM type missiles.

The arm launcher limits its rate of engagement but it is a very reasonable missile system.

But this missile is not as advanced as the 9M317MA that we see on the Grigorovich class, isn't it?

No you are correct it is an older gen missile. I know you guys are getting a couple more talwar class frigates I wonder if the schtil with vls will be included.

They have ordered Grigorovitch class ships not Talwar so it will have VLS.

TMA1 wrote:No you are correct it is an older gen missile. I know you guys are getting a couple more talwar class frigates I wonder if the schtil with vls will be included.

The SAM for the forthcoming Grigorovich class frigates has not been decided yet.

A number of Indian destroyers are armed with the VLS launched Barak-8 so to maintain uniformity the Navy might opt for the Barak 8 on the Grigorovich class frigates as well. There are competing offer from MBDA.

If I'm not mistaken the 9M317MA is much more advanced than the  9M317M missile.