Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

GarryB wrote:

-they'll get a piece of the American pie in the sense that PRC will be checkmated in IO & her superior position on land will be somewhat negated by that factor.

What are you talking about? The PRC is building enormous numbers of aircraft carriers and the ships to go with them...-they'll have 6 CV/Ns max.
even if the US sold to India three CVNs along with the aircraft and the cruisers needed to protect them we are talking about trillions of dollars to buy and to operate...-India will have 2CVs + possible locally built 1 CVN & may get 1-2 ex-US CV/Ns; she already has her escort ships.
but lets pretend it happens anyway... India with its three CVNs with Hornets and F-35s and two US CVNs there to support plus a Japanese frigate and an Australian frigate... how is all that going to "check mate" China? Having all those ships just creates a target rich environment for a single Chinese SSGN with Yakhonts or something that is not 25 years old...-it'll still make the PLAN & Pakistani Navy deployments in the IO risky & costly in any crisis.
One chinese sub will be dead you say... not if it has ten Chinese aircraft carriers and 50 cruisers operating with it.- no need for 10 CVNs, they'll have 5-6 CV/Ns + 4-6 LHA/Ds.

China could simply say to Russia... we want to join the Su-57 programme and we are going to pay you 100 billion dollars to buy the technologies fairly and enter into agreements to produce our own versions... and India can't join till they cut ties with the US.- Russia won't put all her eggs in 1 Chinese basket even for $500B.
Also our silk road initiative linking Asia to Europe in trade routes will all now bypass India so they can't be part of it till they end their ties with the US.- it bypasses her now, as India is out of the way; although she could join with a few branches via Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran.

-only in peacetime

In war time China has IRBMs with nukes... WTF do you think an Indian carrier can do in such a situation?- they could keep it as a low intensity conflict, w/o using nukes. Sometimes sword/gunfighters decide to use fists & feet to see who is the best.

The Tasman Sea isn't much wider than the SC Sea, & it'll take a few weeks to go around NZ or S. America.

It could be as narrow as the Clutha river... Australia and New Zealand don't have enough ships or the legal right to block any shipping traffic... civilian or military from sailing through there.- it'll still complicate their ops & deployments/transits to/from PRC & make them more costly.

And what is India and the US and Australia supposed to do in that narrow straight... how are they going to block that piece of water to Chinese aircraft carriers or civilian commercial traffic?- but in wartime, they'll be more vulnerable.

More importantly what difference would an extra Indian carrier and Hornets make... they couldn't block that straight with or without them.- even if so, IMO, 1 extra CV/N in the IN can aid it in many things.

There, they'll face the RN operating out of the Falklands & S. Georgia. So, until Burma, Indonesia & Australia r occupied, China won't control the IO.

Why do you think China wants to control the Indian ocean?-if nothing else, to control her SLOCs  The RN couldn't do shit operating out of the Falklands... the Chinese could send four aircraft carriers..- even if they get 6, the max deployable #= 2, since 1-2 should stay in the W. Pac./SCS. British territory and ships at sea become fair game for China... how many will they sink?- I won't mind them having a naval war; last time China lost & the RN needs its nose bloodied for that.

Remember it is not illegal for Chinese ships to sail in international waters so Britain sinking a Chinese carrier is a serious act of war...- they can just disable it w/o sinking it.

Why would Britain care about Chinese ships in the Indian ocean?- they r de-facto allied with India & US vs. PRC, & Australia, another member of the British Commonwealth, is in the E. IO & S. Pac.

- perhaps with lasers?

So an existing problem is solved with something that does not exist...-by then, that or some other prototective system will be combat ready.

-they could stop wasting $bs on other things, if need be.

Like food and healthcare and education for their people... silly of them wasting money on such non essentials.- silly for u to suggest that; their wasteful spending & inefficiency r legendary.

.-ship's & aircrews can be trained ahead of time just like they were in Russia to operate the ex-Gorshkov TAKR. If the PLAN sailors & pilots could learn to handle the CV-16 with no outside help, the IN sailors & pilots can learn to operate American CV/Ns, & they'll be helped.

I am sure they could be trained to use them, but the billions of dollars wasted on those pieces of shit ..-if the US gave them to Russia or PRC, they would be useful; the same for India. If they really were so useless, the USN would sell them all for scrap by now.
to create an unnecessary confrontation to break both India and China to suit US ambitions is not in Indias best interests.- WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, & GWOT were also unnecessary, but they did happen; nations, like individuals, don't always act in their best interests, & the PRC-India confrontation existed since 1962.

Now Trump is gone I would expect the anti chinese alliance BS will be scaled back a lot...-I doubt it, the Biden admin. will keep the pressure.

But the US will still demand India stops buying Russian equipment... maybe they could threaten to provide weapons and equipment to Pakistan if they don't...-they'll bark loud but won't bite hard.

-India will stay in BRICS just like Turkey is staying in NATO. That chair may be useful to keep & sometimes sit on.

Being Americas bitch might lead to them being sidelined in BRICS and perhaps replaced with countries who are interested in developing and growth economically and culturally... instead of just becoming a carbon copy of America.- they r smart enough to keep their option open by not getting with both feet in either camp.

- I doubt they want an all-out war with China, just help India contain her & keep the conflict local.

Expensive confrontations are much more profitable... Arm them up with crap weapons and promote infighting and hostility.... it worked with the EU and Russia, so they are doing it with India and China...-time will tell!

I don't need to hear to some white pro-Trump guys rants like those in our far-right Aristide posts.

Yeah, of course... hide the username and my posts are almost identical to Aristides posts on race...- I meant the local US dregs that can't easily even find their own state & hometown on the map.

   
they'll save on commonality between their AF & naval aircraft, so it may be well worth it.

What a stupid thing to say. The Indian AF and Indian Navy current use common aircraft already... the MiG-29 family. You think it would be worth it to replace AF and Navy planes they currently operate with ancient worn out American pieces of crap that will be more expensive than Rafales...-no, they can keep those on Russian/Indian built CVs & use F-18s or Rafales on CVNs.
not to mention that the Hornets wont operate from existing Indian carriers anyway...-they could, even if in low #, as force multipliers.

Commonality only makes sense to reduce costs... right now getting new build MiG-35s for their Navy and Air Force... talk of a new contract for making 100 plus aircraft would make sense, but if they choose Hornets or Rafales that will be 30-40 billion dollars.

they imported dozens of C-17s, AH-64s, CH-57s & Rafales instead of their Russian counterparts; if they order/build F-18s or naval Rafales, that will still be within their way of doing things. They have their own logic & paradigm to follow.

-they'll have 6 CV/Ns max.

Even if that is all they want that is plenty.

It is not like they have to cover the worlds oceans like the US does...

.-India will have 2CVs + possible locally built 1 CVN & may get 1-2 ex-US CV/Ns; she already has her escort ships.

India does not have anything like the cruiser sized ships she would need to escort a CV... its destroyers have SAMs with effective ranges of less than 100km, which would have been OK in the 1980s, but not now...


You need more than Destroyers and Frigates to escort carriers... of course at the moment they only have the converted Kiev class carrier... has the carrier they were making themselves made it to the water yet?

The INS Viraat was decommissioned 2017...

-it'll still make the PLAN & Pakistani Navy deployments in the IO risky & costly in any crisis.

In times of crisis it will make them more necessary... and keeping in mind both Pakistan and China are nuclear powers... it would be rather straight forward to load a few nuclear armed low flying subsonic land attack cruise missiles on any ships or subs operating in the Indian Ocean... or indeed any torpedo could be fitted with a nuclear warhead too... just direct it into the nearest naval base or commercial port or port near a major city....

- no need for 10 CVNs, they'll have 5-6 CV/Ns + 4-6 LHA/Ds.

The point is that even one well armed cruiser would probably distract the defences long enough for the sub to leave the area or for 10 more subs to arrive and start sinking every enemy ship they see...

- Russia won't put all her eggs in 1 Chinese basket even for $500B.

India does not seem interested in the Su-57, why not sell the Chinese some of those technologies... they already traded secret rocket designs for micro electronic production secrets, though those rocket designs they were already selling to the US so they were hardly secret. China has stolen lots of technology and information from the US, mostly because they wont let them buy it, but when given the chance to buy technology they are normally quite happy to do so.

.- it bypasses her now, as India is out of the way; although she could join with a few branches via Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran.

Which just shows how dumb India is being getting into bed with the US and Japan et al.

There is trillions of dollars in trade potential between Asia and the EU... why would a country not want to tap in to that and take advantage of that to move their goods in both directions?

That could have been a huge driver for her own economic growth.

- they could keep it as a low intensity conflict, w/o using nukes. Sometimes sword/gunfighters decide to use fists & feet to see who is the best.

You watch too many cowboy movies... the history of fighting was brutal and offensive for our soft modern eyes...

The hand guards on a sword are not for decoration and are not intended to make the sword look like a christian cross when held by the blade... they are there to stop your enemy swinging and meeting your blade and then turning his sword and sliding it down the edge of your blade and either cutting off your fingers down one side of the blade or your hands at the wrists on the other.

Think of the fucking stupid cowboy who fights an armed man using his fists... when he gets up close and takes a swing the other guy draws his pistol and shoots him in the chest... he wont miss because the muzzle of his gun is pressed up against your shirt...

What you see in movies is bullshit... and if it was real life and death you would do the same.

- it'll still complicate their ops & deployments/transits to/from PRC & make them more costly.

No it wont... the whole plan is to stop shipping goods that way to Europe... the ships would go north and along the Russian coastline... it will be 14 days shorter to the EU and there is no canal to pay to use either...

- but in wartime, they'll be more vulnerable.

In war time the Chinese ships are much better armed than the Indian ships and are much bigger too.

In war time between nuclear armed super powers trying to cut off commerce would be a reason for military action... the Chinese navy would get the job of ensuring ships delivering goods to and from China can operate freely... if Indian ships and Australian ships and Jap ships and American ships want to try to stop Chinese transport ships then they will find they will come under attack for their acts of piracy.

- even if so, IMO, 1 extra CV/N in the IN can aid it in many things.

The likely cost to India would probably be 5 billion for the ship alone and likely another 20 billion for the aircraft assuming they are the AWACS and Hornets and US big military helicopters that operate on their older carriers... so no advantage and no improvement but 20 to 30 billion dollars buying Americas cast off crap...

Then China would be very interested in spending 100 billion on buying Su-57s and also getting a navalised version produced for their carriers and then the US is screwed because a naval Su-57 will be vastly more capable than any more F-35 they currently have and the F-15EX and new model F-16s wont be of any use either as neither are carrier capable. There is no way to dig up the F-14 all the tooling and drawings are gone... intentionally destroyed... same with the F-22... they can't bring them back easily.

-if nothing else, to control her SLOCs

Always thinking like an American... Not control. Protect. They want a presence but they don't want to kick everyone else out. They understand other countries will want to use that waterway too... it is only the US that tries to dominate and push everyone else out.

- even if they get 6, the max deployable #= 2, since 1-2 should stay in the W. Pac./SCS.

They can easily operate in the west pacific and south china seas with land based aircraft and IRCM and IRBMs.

- I won't mind them having a naval war; last time China lost & the RN needs its nose bloodied for that.

I am sure you loved the Indians and Chinese have border disputes where young men died too... entertainment was it?

.- they can just disable it w/o sinking it.

They could try, but what happens when the platform that attacks the Chinese ships gets attacked and sunk?

That is called self defence... they could sink any other ship nearby too... they could say they weren't sure which ship actually launched the attack...

- they r de-facto allied with India & US vs. PRC, & Australia, another member of the British Commonwealth, is in the E. IO & S. Pac.

So the next time a western ship sails through the SCS the Chinese can sink them too?

They have islands there that could have land based Onyx missiles they could upgrade to improve range performance...

-by then, that or some other prototective system will be combat ready.

Been about 40 years since the Falklands war and I am not sure UK ships are fully safe from Exocet type missiles let alone Granits.

- silly for u to suggest that; their wasteful spending & inefficiency r legendary.

So pissing away cash on American shit that wont help at all but will antagonise Indias neighbour and cause even more tensions and mistrust, when they should be dropping the US like the they are and improving relations with China and getting to know their neighbour better.

-if the US gave them to Russia or PRC, they would be useful; the same for India. If they really were so useless, the USN would sell them all for scrap by now.

The US constantly burdens it bitches with useless crap. Worn out old helicopters and fighter aircraft are common "gifts" US allies get to pay top dollar for.

Russia and China wouldn't want that American crap... it would cost too much to fix it and get it to work... they might take them to bits to see what stupid design choices were made and all the patches to fix them and make them work... would probably be quite entertaining...

- WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, & GWOT were also unnecessary, but they did happen;

All horrendous wastes of time and money and most importantly lives, but westerns stupidity and arrogance is what it is.

nations, like individuals, don't always act in their best interests, & the PRC-India confrontation existed since 1962.

And US confrontation against Japan and Germany and the UK and France and all the other combinations of UK vs Germany and US and France and Japan etc etc... yet when defeated and turned into the others bitch they seem to be able to cooperate.

It is not working with China and the west and Russia and the west because those two independent countries don't want to be the wests bitch and abandon their allies and interests for the sake of Washington.

I rather suspect India will realise what it is potentially giving up as it heads down the path with the US.... CAASTA should prevent them getting too far.

Even Turkey wont go that path... and they are not natural friends with Russia but I suspect they realise the sort of friend the US wants them to be and they don't want that even more.

-I doubt it, the Biden admin. will keep the pressure.

Trump was driving the Anti China pogrom... I don't think it was a deep state thing, so Biden is in the anti Russian camp, but he wont want to be hard on Russia and China... he will want to play one off against the other.

Whether he actually succeeds is something else... the Democrats did a lot of things around the world they hoped would improve things for American and it mostly just blew up in their faces... they really don't seem very popular in the Middle East or elsewhere... because of their clumsy actions and positions... creepy joe has even backed out of blindly 100% support for Saudi Arabia in Yemen... and paused the sale of F-35s to UAE for its cow towing over Israel... something Trump was proud of so of course he will kill it.

.-they'll bark loud but won't bite hard.

Which renders CAASTA meaningless then doesn't it?

.- they r smart enough to keep their option open by not getting with both feet in either camp.

They are getting into bed with a disease ridden whore who just wants a ride... how smart can they be... could end up with something they will be paying for the rest of their lives.

- I meant the local US dregs that can't easily even find their own state & hometown on the map.

Google maps has a search function. Funny that people who are not planning a trip don't waste hours of their lives learning where everything is on a map... just like most people wouldn't know what star they are looking at in the night sky, but no one ever moans about that...

-no, they can keep those on Russian/Indian built CVs & use F-18s or Rafales on CVNs.

Adding a new aircraft type does not save on commonality... it adds greatly to costs and expenses and problems... especially an expensive aircraft like a Hornet.

-they could, even if in low #, as force multipliers.

No they couldn't.

they imported dozens of C-17s, AH-64s, CH-57s & Rafales instead of their Russian counterparts;

They did... they spent 80% of their budget on 20% of their inventory buying western crap.

And that is for them to justify.

It is not a good reason to piss away enormous amounts of money to introduce new types of totally different and unrelated aircraft and ship types to their inventory.

if they order/build F-18s or naval Rafales, that will still be within their way of doing things.

If they buy Rafales or F-18s they wont be able to afford the ships they are supposed to operate from... which really runs counter to the entire purpose of getting them.

These aircraft are several times more expensive than their current heavy fighter.... it would be cheaper to buy more Su-30MKIs... in fact if they took all the foreign shit out of them that makes them three times more expensive they could probably buy three times more aircraft and still pay less money to buy and operate them.

They have their own logic & paradigm to follow.

They certainly do... it makes stealing easier I suspect.

New Delhi forges ahead with new naval fighter, AMCA

Which would make the Hornet as a stop gap naval fighter even more ridiculous if they are planning to develop their own new fighter for the role.

Thales has been selected to supply ALFS anti-submarine warfare sonars to the Indian Navy . Thales will deliver the ALFS systems for installation on the MH-60R helicopter platform.

ALFS is designed for the initial detection and tracking of opposing submarines. It offers a long detection range with a wide coverage rate and a low false alarm level, both in deep and coastal waters.

http://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/document/2021-04/PR_20210427_Thales%20selected%20by%20Lockheed%20Martin%20to%20deliver%20airborne%20anti-submarine%20warfare%20sonars%20to%20the%20U.S.%2C%20Indian%2C%20Greek%20and%20Danish%20navies.docx_0.pdf

India has made some progress though.

From a single 5.5 ton Dhanush ShLBM onboard 1900 ton Sukanya-Class OPV

TO

Four ~7 ton ABMs/ SSMs onboard 11,300 ton DRDO TDV.

Tsavo Lion wrote:New Delhi forges ahead with new naval fighter, AMCA

Hmm what engine...

Outfitted with folding wings for deck handling and storage, the TEDBF will have a maximum take-off weight of 26t and be powered by two GE Aviation F414 INS6 engines.

Ah so no internal weapons then ?

The navy fighter will forgo an internal weapons bay.

India should collaborate with Russia on this instead of the US clearly.

Backman wrote:India should collaborate with Russia on this instead of the US clearly.

Unless the Russian fighter is already available and in service, cost a fifth of the US fighter, probably won't even be considered.
That's India for you.

The first P-15B destroyer has been handed over to the Indian Navy

Sujoy wrote:The first P-15B destroyer has been handed over to the Indian Navy

Lolzzz India took 10 years to build a destroyer of 7400 tonnes. China took 4 years to build a 13 thousand tonne destroyer with 2x the firepower of any Indian destroyer.

Good luck facing the Chinese.

jhelb wrote:

Sujoy wrote:The first P-15B destroyer has been handed over to the Indian Navy

Lolzzz India took 10 years to build a destroyer of 7400 tonnes. China took 4 years to build a 13 thousand tonne destroyer with 2x the firepower of any Indian destroyer.

Good luck facing the Chinese.

And China's is questionable at best anyway.

First steps though and while it took a long time, maybe it wont take so long in the future to build more.

miketheterrible wrote:And China's is questionable at best anyway.

If China's is questionable then the same can be said about India's. India is 10x more corrupt a country than China.

It is only a problem for India if they follow the US and become cannon fodder in a new cold war against China.

Besides, the naval factors is largely irrelevant anyway... India has Brahmos and China has Yakhont so neither would last very long.

They share a long land border so naval warfare would not be very important at all for either side.

GarryB wrote:India has Brahmos and China has Yakhont so neither would last very long.

That's why there are anti cruise missile weapons, systems on board modern day destroyers like Redut and Pantsir-M apart from EW systems.

P-15B is a poorly designed ship - just see a lot of antenna arrays and deck installations. Compare that with the stealthy Type-055 of PLA-Navy. Not to forget that P-15B carries just 16 brahmos cruise missile.Type 55 has 112 VLS that can fire a variety of cruise missiles.

So your Brahmos, Yakhont comparison doesn't work either.

India is planning to lease 4 Kilo class submarines

Sujoy wrote:India is planning to lease 4 Kilo class submarines

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1458711481273307138?s=20

Tweet deleted.

And why would they lease a Kilo which they have bought and been operating since the 90s? If anything they would just buy new Kilos.

owais.usmani wrote:Tweet deleted.

And why would they lease a Kilo which they have bought and been operating since the 90s? If anything they would just buy new Kilos.

India plans to lease from Russia at least 4 more Kilo class submarines. It could well be a lease to sell agreement. India's submarine fleet is fast depleting. The eco system for the Kilo class already exists, so it makes sense to lease/buy more Kilo class submarines.

So your Brahmos, Yakhont comparison doesn't work either.

Both have very capable anti ship missiles.

India will have the support of the US and Japan and South Korea and Australia, China will have China... and Pakistan.

GarryB wrote:

So your Brahmos, Yakhont comparison doesn't work either.

Both have very capable anti ship missiles.

India will have the support of the US and Japan and South Korea and Australia, China will have China... and Pakistan.

US weren't helping UK during WW2 let alone India against a country that has nuks.

Japan has conquered and destroyed South korea and tried to colonized Australia. South Korea still sees Japan as an enemy state.

In terms of alliance that will never work.

If a war breaks out it will be everyone for itself. And the only one there to try to be self-sufficient is China. India is a mess, spending more than anyone else but is getting very few weapons for that money. Japan rellies on US. South korea too. US relies on all of them because it is goo far from China, needs bases. Australia is a joke as a country, let alone its military which lost a war against a bird.

US weren't helping UK during WW2 let alone India against a country that has nuks.

Russia and US and UK were all on the same side during WWII but things apparently seem to have changed.

The US also helped the wrong side in both civil wars in Russia and China... which is ironic because the Russians supported the right side in the US civil war...

I remember reading an article about US active soldiers offering their sniper services to the Russians in the Crimean war... against the British... quite interesting.

Japan has conquered and destroyed South korea and tried to colonized Australia. South Korea still sees Japan as an enemy state.

And yet all of these countries are joining the US in a coalition of the stupid against China... it wont be India that starts anything... more likely the US...

In terms of alliance that will never work.

Yeah, and the countries of HATO are all best buddies who have never drawn blood before in anger...

If a war breaks out it will be everyone for itself. And the only one there to try to be self-sufficient is China. India is a mess, spending more than anyone else but is getting very few weapons for that money.

India spends nothing like what the US spends let alone what China spends...

Japan rellies on US. South korea too. US relies on all of them because it is goo far from China, needs bases. Australia is a joke as a country, let alone its military which lost a war against a bird.

All the countries of the alliance against China are bitches.... American bitches, and while America claims it will stand by Taiwan if there is a problem with China, they will run away like little girls first chance they get.

But China would have a hell of a job actually getting rid of them... as SS mentions... they are like cockroaches... nuclear wars wont eradicate them...