Indian Navy and Naval Aicraft: News

- u forgot about Pakistan, the Nicobars, Maldives & Sri Lanka. In a certain way, the latter is India's Taiwan.

.- u forgot about the need to protect other ships & subs which r useful in outflanking & attacking enemy ashore with LACMs.

- I was saying the same thing last year, but the Indians think otherwise; feel free to contact their politicians, scholars, admirals & generals to convince them otherwise. It would be interesting to read their responses should u ever get it.

- if India decides to invade Sri Lanka, her CV/Ns will play a similar role.

- it helps her elites to stay in power; Germany, UK & France fought many wars over 100s of years before reaching a settlement between themselves.

- like during Iran-Iraq War.

who else besides the PRC & Pakistan+ their proxies is India arming herself against?

.- Taiwan bought both French & American fighters; it now has more F-16s than Mirages- why didn't they buy the Rafales instead?

The FN has 1 CVN while the USN has 10 active CVNs+10 more LHA/Ds & SSN/SSGNs, besides dozens of B-1B/2/52s that deploy to the W. Pac & IO all the time. So, who is a better ally to buy from?

- F-18E/Fs could be liked & adopted by the IAF too

For the purchase of the S-400, the US can ; at least producing some parts maybe in the cards.

-if nothing else, effectively demonstrate being able to stand up to China & show Russia that India can be independent in choosing her allies of convenience.

-they'll be no different than the Israelis & Iranians who integrated their armaments & avionics on American supplied fighters.

-not if the US gives her a few CV/Ns to even the odds.

In any case, the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF will be keeping/sending carriers in/to the IO even if India has a token force deployable at any given time.

-no, it's not a 0 sum game; just like China played the Soviet & American cards against each other,

India can play American & Chinese cards against each other, while still maintaining good relations with Iran, Russia, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, the Arabs & Israelis.

.-their avionics can be modified; their CH-47s can also be modified, with bigger radar antenna, & a few V-22s could be sold to them as well.

The F-18Fs can also be used as mini AWACS, just like IrAF F-14s were in Iran-Iraq War.

-it'll be swaying back & forth for years between worse & better relations with all 3 of them maneuvering to gain more benefits to themselves.

.- again, u r preaching to the choir here.

A follow on heavier fighter will take 10-15 years to develop & mature, & that's why the F-18E/F deal is a interim good solution.

GarryB wrote:All well within land based aircraft range.- w/o tanker support, they won't be able to stay around those islands for long. CV/Ns will solve the persistence problem.
If they were really interested in land based long range strike then Tu-22M3Ms could be purchased...- or modify their Tu-142s; their P-8s & IL-76s can be modified for that for a lot le$$, or they could order some Su-34s. But, if they get F-18E/Fs, the IN & AF may get those made in India: Depending on the number of machines ordered by both the Navy and the IAF, Boeing will set up a completely new production facility in India for the production of its F/A-18 Super Hornets with the aim that the new facility can be used for other programs like India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/should-iaf-invest-15-bn-in-buying-the-f/a-18-super-hornet/articleshow/70355847.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Again, would be easier to buy some Backfires that could fly out at relatively high speed and launch missiles and them come back home quickly limiting the ability of the enemy to return fire...- their Su-30s & future F-18s can do that too, but having CV/N AWs a lot closer will give more flexibility in the A2D effort as well as aiding in attacking whoever.
I have no money to bribe them with... they wouldn't even bother to read what I said... Does that make them right and me wrong though?-I appreciate ur overall reasoning, but they r right according to their own logic; there many different solutions & it's not against their Hinduist nature to try many of them at once, which offers the possibility of finding the best option sooner, by trial & error, if u will.

- if India decides to invade Sri Lanka, her CV/Ns will play a similar role.

Why would India invade anyone?-Sri Lanka is an unsinkable CV of PRC, just like Taiwan is for Japan & USA.
When was the last time they invaded anyone?-usually, the strongest volcano eruption happens after a long dormant period.
When your leaders can only remain in power by creating enemies and tensions with neighbours then it is time to shoot your leaders and start again... applies to the US and UK and France BTW...- killing Indira Ghandi & Zia Ul Huk still didn't help matters.
Considering the way the west treats them they should be protecting themselves against the west... look at past treatment... friends like that... who needs enemies...Ask their allies in Vietnam and China and Cuba and other places they abandoned when it was no longer in their interests...India is better off expecting to be fighting on her own than rely on France or the US.-they hope to get the tech transfer & trade deals before & if the plug is pulled, so it's worth it. Hitler & Hirohito did the same thing with the West, & it took the same West 4 years to defeat them.
The Indians liked the Mirage 2000 and wanted to produce it locally... it was France that said no, you have to buy its replacement and you have to pay top dollar... they wanted 126 and ended up buying 36 for almost the price they wanted to spend getting 126 of them...-it shows that the Americans r better at negotiating.

- F-18E/Fs could be liked & adopted by the IAF too

Very unlikely, for a start an F-16 would be cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate... which is largely why it outsold the larger twin engined naval cousin around the world.-the Indians have the light Tejas, but want a new naval fighter with 2 engines, & I don't blame them! The USN & USAF used the F-4s; PLANAF & PLAAF use the Su-30/35s, J-11/15/16s- why can't F-18E/Fs be used by IN & IAF? The older F-18C/Ds were good enough for several AFs & r likely to be replaced by F-18E/Fs.
but you think that will make them want to buy more American shit?- for the right price & bribes, anything is possible, esp. since the US tweaks sanctions all the time.
Israel holds the leads to the Americans necks..-it was still pressured to cancel the successful Lavi program & buy the F-16s instead. In that case, Israel was a paper tiger. China gained a lot from its design to build the J-10, w/o losing her independence.
Who needs fighter aircraft you need permission to use? ..India will lose all support and spares if they try to do it themselves the way the Iranians did...-once she starts producing them, India can use them as she sees fit.

-not if the US gives her a few CV/Ns to even the odds.

..India does not have the 100 cruisers armed with huge radars and SAMs that would be needed to defend them.- she has A-50 AWACS, & will be operating with the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF CGs & DDGs.
When it is convenient... but of course a real war starting between China and India and watch them run away...-I wouldn't count on that, as the stakes r a lot higher now than before.
In India though there are 1.2 billion people who need to buy $300 gym shoes and $400 blue jeans and $3,000 Apple phones...- most of them r too poor to afford them, so that isn't an option.Recall M. Ghandi making his own clothes & salt instead of buying them from the Brits. But weapon systems r different, as they still have a lot of caching up to do.
V-22s are enormously expensive... you would get 20 Ka-31s for the price of one V-22 and all the supposed advantages of the V-22 make no difference in the AEW role...-they could use them as transports instead of those CH-47s modified for EW.
Turning a CH-47 into an AEW aircraft would be expensive too... because everything America does is expensive.-if they get dirt cheap or free CV/Ns, compared to that savings, it will be small potatoes to put Indian &/ imported comm./EW gear on them.
If fighter planes could be used as proper AWACS platforms then why would AWACS planes have ever been invented...- a handgun isn't as good as a rifle, but better than no gun at all; not as proper AWACS, but together with A-50s, "if the shoe fits, wear it!"
Hopefully India will realise the choice is being a pole in a multipolar world, or just being a part of the west...- she'll be a smaller pole at best, like Brazil & S. Africa, with "short end of the stick".
I would think India ..doesn't.. lose its independence to protect it from China...- the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.
a country that has never shown any interest in invading and occupying India.- true, but there r border disputes with her & her ally Pakistan; both hold big land areas India claims as her own & their naval activity increase in the IO each year. They r holding India in a vise, leaving her no other choice but resist the pressure by allying with the enemies of her enemy.
..why are you suggesting it might be a good idea for their navy and air force to buy american shit that is older than the Russian aircraft they have now?- the F-18E/Fs Block III r not; those she'll produce will be brand new.
For the trillions in the new cold war this is going to create with China they could fund an upgrade of the planes they have to do what they want and still have money left over to fix other things without starting a fight with either of their neighbours...- "if u want peace, be prepared for war"; upgrading takes more time & may not be as effective; as an example, if there were IL-476s ready then, fewer, if any, C-17s would be bought.

A follow on heavier fighter will take 10-15 years to develop & mature, & that's why the F-18E/F deal is an interim good solution.

No it isn't... continuing to use MiG-29KRs which are still rather new makes much more sense than handing their balls to the US... the US will likely screw up their deal with France over the Rafales anyway, why give them more planes to ground or render useless?

Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if so, if those F-18E/Fs r going to be produced locally, it's a moot point.

w/o tanker support, they won't be able to stay around those islands for long. CV/Ns will solve the persistence problem.

- or modify their Tu-142s

their P-8s & IL-76s can be modified for that for a lot le$$, or they could order some Su-34s

But, if they get F-18E/Fs, the IN & AF may get those made in India: Depending on the number of machines ordered by both the Navy and the IAF, Boeing will set up a completely new production facility in India for the production of its F/A-18 Super Hornets with the aim that the new facility can be used for other programs like India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.

- their Su-30s & future F-18s can do that too, but having CV/N AWs a lot closer will give more flexibility in the A2D effort as well as aiding in attacking whoever.

-I appreciate ur overall reasoning, but they r right according to their own logic; there many different solutions & it's not against their Hinduist nature to try many of them at once, which offers the possibility of finding the best option sooner, by trial & error, if u will.

-Sri Lanka is an unsinkable CV of PRC, just like Taiwan is for Japan & USA.

-usually, the strongest volcano eruption happens after a long dormant period.

.- killing Indira Ghandi & Zia Ul Huk still didn't help matters.

.-they hope to get the tech transfer & trade deals before & if the plug is pulled,

so it's worth it. Hitler & Hirohito did the same thing with the West, & it took the same West 4 years to defeat them.

.-it shows that the Americans r better at negotiating.

The USN & USAF used the F-4s; PLANAF & PLAAF use the Su-30/35s, J-11/15/16s- why can't F-18E/Fs be used by IN & IAF? The older F-18C/Ds were good enough for several AFs & r likely to be replaced by F-18E/Fs.

- for the right price & bribes, anything is possible, esp. since the US tweaks sanctions all the time.

-it was still pressured to cancel the successful Lavi program & buy the F-16s instead. In that case, Israel was a paper tiger. China gained a lot from its design to build the J-10, w/o losing her independence.

-once she starts producing them, India can use them as she sees fit.

- she has A-50 AWACS, & will be operating with the USN, RN, FN, & JMSDF CGs & DDGs.

-I wouldn't count on that, as the stakes r a lot higher now than before.

.- most of them r too poor to afford them , so that isn't an option.Recall M. Ghandi making his own clothes & salt instead of buying them from the Brits. But weapon systems r different, as they still have a lot of caching up to do.

.-they could use them as transports instead of those CH-47s modified for EW.

- a handgun isn't as good as a rifle, but better than no gun at all; not as proper AWACS, but together with A-50s, "if the shoe fits, wear it!"

- she'll be a smaller pole at best, like Brazil & S. Africa, with "short end of the stick".

- the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.

.- true, but there r border disputes with her & her ally Pakistan; both hold big land areas India claims as her own & their navies r getting more active in the IO each year. ]

They r holding India in a vise, leaving her has no other choice but resist the pressure by allying with the enemies of her enemy.

- the F-18E/Fs Block III r not; those she'll produce will be brand new.

"if u want peace, be prepared for war";

upgrading takes more time & may not be as effective; as an example, if there were IL-476s ready then, fewer, if any, C-17s would be bought.

Iran still uses its F-4/5/14s, P-3s & CH-47s

& Venezuela still uses its F-16s.

Why do u think the Indians r going to be less capable of keeping their F-18E/Fs, P-8s, & CH-47s in the air after losing the US favors?

Even if so, if those F-18E/Fs r going to be produced locally, it's a moot point.

Assembly line sucks and makes the aircraft cost 2 times more (but it creates some jobs).

GarryB wrote:What persistance problem? These planes are going to be delivering air strikes with stand off missiles... would be cheaper to use cruise missiles launched from ships operating under air cover provided by land based aircraft...they could save even more money by not starting this stupid cold war with their neighbour in the first place...- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat. Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.
Tu-22M3s are more capable and while having a shorter flight range, which could be solved with the inflight refuelling probe being restored, they can operate with a good payload over much larger distances than conventional fighters...- since they now have a CV & plan to get more, why duplicate the effort & waste resources? they hadn't bothered with Tu-16/22s before, while much poorer Indonesia, Egypt, Libya & Iraq did.

That article you posted a while back said 15 billion for a lease of aircraft... now you are talking enough planes to justify production in India...- don't believe everything u read; the deal costs r not set yet & I doubt they'll agree on a lease/purchase alone for that much, esp. after overpaying for the AH-64s, CH-47s & C-17s.
..15 billion on ancient American shit...-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!
The Tu-22M3 has much better strike range performance than either of those two fighters, ..-if they really wanted that capability, there r Russian MiG-31s with Kinzhals &/ Brahmoses with plenty of older IAF MiG-25 pilots to help train the new 1s.

I suspect there will be another 15 billion dollar charge for EMALS...-the Indians will be happy with cheaper used & proven steam catapults off inactive/transferred US CV/Ns.

Play with Fire and get burned....-if Israel could use American made aircraft to beat the Arabs, why shouldn't India try to adopt them to confront threats they believe they face?  
And India is an unsinkable carrier for use against the PRC or anyone else and is positioned closer to China...- but she's vulnerable w/o a strong blue water navy, just like the PRC itself is.
And it would be fairly straight forward to obliterate most targets on that island with the many ballistic missiles India already possesses.- w/o boots on the ground, China may turn it to a fortress again. That's why the USSR took the S. Sakhalin & Kurils & the US took Puerto Rico & Guam.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I could say that you have probably never spontaneously burst into flames before... so you must be about to... right?-anything is possible, as "war is politics by other means". India did invade Bangladesh & Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.

so you have to take out the whole system.- Gorbachev did & lost his job & country. India would end up the same.

The US doesn't do tech transfer... just like France doesn't...-France does it with subs in Pakistan, Brazil & Australia AFAIK. The US won't make friends with India w/o it, & they need friends in Asia that r not afraid of China. at some point, India may do the same with F-18s what Israel did with F-1 Mirages.
But India sucking up to the west will mean Russia will have to change its policy from ally to just another customer too...-Iraq, Egypt, Finland, Malaysia & Indonesia were buying Soviet & Western arms for decades; Russia will need to take it & move on with her life.
for instance ISIS is worse than Russian or Iranian forces in Syria, yet the west funds and supports them.- no, outside funding comes from certain Arab states.
Makes you wonder why they couldn't simply continue to cooperate during peace time and avoid the entire cold war...- because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.

They are terrible at negotiations and are breaking agreements all the time as fast as they can rip them up.-China got some US tech help in the 1970-80s; Iran, Turkey & Pakistan still use American aircraft despite of having their relations with the US in the gutter, some for decades.
The MiG-35 is younger than the Hornet.- they may feel that supporting Russia's MIC only is lie putting all eggs in 1 basket. Even if they do, Russia won't threaten the PRC like she did in 1979 over Vietnam. OTH, the US/NATO already threatens both China & Russia- it's a good time for India to put her tail on the side while still standing up like a horse & jump on that bandwagon.

Because without cats it is likely inferior to the MiG they currently use, while likely being significantly more expensive.-FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.
If the jews had dug in their heels they would have gotten their way...-they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.
No she can't. India wont be producing them... they will call them factories and they will say they are making them but in actual fact they will just be assembling them...-or they'll modify & call them some other name like Israel did with its Kfirs & PRC does with its J-7/11/15/16s & H-6s.
I thought they had to buy US gear to be compatible and had to stop using Russian gear...- their 3 A-50s have Israeli EL/W-2090 radar with 2 more on order, +2 EMB-145s with 1 on order. Iraq had IL-76MD Baghdad-1 (Adnan-1) with Thomson CSF TRS-2105/06 Tiger G radar while operating Soviet & French fighters.

What stakes? In a shooting war between China and India, the US is not going to send any troops or weapons with their own troops on board into harms way...-I bet they'll assist remotely like they did with USSR in WWII.

there are plenty of very rich Indians...-they'll buy Japanese, Korean & Chinese gadgets before they'll buy any American 1s.

The obvious problem is that the CH-47 would not be any better in the AEW role than the Ka-31 but it is much bigger... taking up a lot more space on any ship it is based on, and it will burn much more fuel...-if the CATOBAR isn't ready, the CH-47 would have more range & could fly with extra tanks &/ IRP; it could be useful overland as well.
Even a free CVN will cost 2 billion a year to operate, and when it comes time to refuel its reactors brace yourself for all the zeros after the first numbers...-they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between refueling is due.

Replacing obsolete existing components with India gear will cost a lot of money and will require full testing and redesign and I doubt the American companies that make that gear will be happy with India putting Indian or French gear on their carrier... there will be a clause that India will have to use US approved kit... which is secret code for only US company gear will be approved.- fine, they'll use American aircraft on American equipped ships- by then, the portion of Russian equipped aircraft & ships will be small &/ not that important to affect anything. Those too could be given extra/improved gear to make them more compatible.
India already bought a landing ship from the US and the requirements for the transfer included never actually using the ship in real combat...-I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?

what moron would base a defence around a radar that can only see 120 degrees at a time... -they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area. Btw, India-US deal goes sore later, India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s. The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.

There is no reason for them to be a smaller pole than China... and I am sure if they play the game sensibly they will be treated with respect as equals by Russia and by China...-the subcontinent and that is now "mighty" India was invaded, ruled  & robbed by her neighbors & later colonized by the West for 100s of years; it was partitioned into 3 states after 1947, had 3 wars with Pakistan & 1 with China, & now is reduced to siding with the US & Japan against the latter. It has no permanent seat at the UNSC & most of her population is poorer than China's. The sacred cows & monkeys roam the streets (also full of feral dogs) & have the right of way everywhere. Unsanitary conditions r common. Tigers, leopards & wild elephants maim & kill dozens of people every year. There r 300M poor Gypsies there & all over the World, a lot more than successful Indian diaspora. In the US, many Indians r drivers, hotel/restaurant staff, shops, & the like. The overseas Chinese have Chinatowns while the Gypsies have small villages inhabited by craftsmen, smiths, musicians, traders, & petty criminals. Sorry, but I don't expect India to be treated as = to Russia or China in my lifetime.

- the latter didn't lose her independence to the US while the fear was that the USSR could invade her from Mongolia at anytime & take Beijing with Harbin. Delhi & Calcutta r in better position.

What is this horseshit... there were never any Soviet plans to invade...- FYI, there was a plan to strike at Beijing from Mongolia in the event of Chinese aggression in the Soviet FE.
China has no interest in invading India either...-she'll help Pakistan if the war happens over Kashmir. That's enough for the Indian leadership to sleep with 1 eye open.
the US has border claims with Canada and Mexico and their navy is active around the world... war must be imminent...- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.
A brand new scratch built WWII biplane is still a biplane.- by the same token, modernized An-2 biplanes & MiG-21/J-7s r still useful; so r the F-4/5/14/15/16/18s in many AFs.
There is no value in peace when you piss away all your money on expensive non functional US weapons- they r the same type of weapons that were used since 1991 in the ME & Afghanistan; at least some of them were successful, even if misused.
to fight a war against a country that is not your enemy...-if it's not ur friend, it's a potential enemy, esp. if it's closely allied with Pakistan armed with American, Russian, French & Chinese weapons that is a real enemy.
For the money they spent on C-17 they could have bought five times as many An-124s... cost effectiveness and reason have nothing to do with their purchasing programme.-as I said before, they r buying political influence as added value to the actual product.

Iran still uses its F-4/5/14s, P-3s & CH-47s

At enormous expense they have learned to support those aircraft,..-that helped their aviation industry to develop; import substitution is better than import prostitution.

& Venezuela still uses its F-16s.

They bought Flankers for a reason...- they didn't completely replace them.
India does not export oil.- but she produces other things & has big trade surplus with enough $ to buy many things she can't produce.
perhaps you are right... India has to have their Ukraine moment before they realise what is best for India...

.- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat.

Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.

.- since they now have a CV & plan to get more, why duplicate the effort & waste resources? they hadn't bothered with Tu-16/22s before, while much poorer Indonesia, Egypt, Libya & Iraq did.

.- don't believe everything u read; the deal costs r not set yet & I doubt they'll agree on a lease/purchase alone for that much, esp. after overpaying for the AH-64s, CH-47s & C-17s.

.-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!

-if they really wanted that capability, there r Russian MiG-31s with Kinzhals &/ Brahmoses with plenty of older IAF MiG-25 pilots to help train the new 1s.

-the Indians will be happy with cheaper used & proven steam catapults off inactive/transferred US CV/Ns.

-if Israel could use American made aircraft to beat the Arabs, why shouldn't India try to adopt them to confront threats they believe they face?  

- but she's vulnerable w/o a strong blue water navy, just like the PRC itself is.

That's why the USSR took the S. Sakhalin & Kurils & the US took Puerto Rico & Guam.

-anything is possible,

India did invade Bangladesh

Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.

- Gorbachev did & lost his job & country. India would end up the same.

Russia will need to take it & move on with her life.

no, outside funding comes from certain Arab states.

- because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.

-China got some US tech help in the 1970-80s; Iran, Turkey & Pakistan still use American aircraft despite of having their relations with the US in the gutter, some for decades.

- they may feel that supporting Russia's MIC only is lie putting all eggs in 1 basket.

Even if they do, Russia won't threaten the PRC like she did in 1979 over Vietnam. OTH, the US/NATO already threatens both China & Russia- it's a good time for India to put her tail on the side while still standing up like a horse & jump on that bandwagon.

-FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.

-they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.

.-or they'll modify & call them some other name like Israel did with its Kfirs & PRC does with its J-7/11/15/16s & H-6s.

.- their 3 A-50s have Israeli EL/W-2090 radar with 2 more on order, +2 EMB-145s with 1 on order . Iraq had IL-76MD Baghdad-1 (Adnan-1) with Thomson CSF TRS-2105/06 Tiger G radar while operating Soviet & French fighters.

-I bet they'll assist remotely like they did with USSR in WWII.

-they'll buy Japanese, Korean & Chinese gadgets before they'll buy any American 1s.

.-if the CATOBAR isn't ready, the CH-47 would have more range & could fly with extra tanks &/ IRP; it could be useful overland as well.

-they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between refueling is due.

.- fine, they'll use American aircraft on American equipped ships- by then, the portion of Russian equipped aircraft & ships will be small &/ not that important to affect anything. Those too could be given extra/improved gear to make them more compatible.

-I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?

-they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area.

India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s.

The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.

had 3 wars with Pakistan & 1 with China, & now is reduced to siding with the US & Japan against the latter.

The sacred cows & monkeys roam the streets (also full of feral dogs) & have the right of way everywhere. Unsanitary conditions r common. Tigers, leopards & wild elephants maim & kill dozens of people every year. There r 300M poor Gypsies there & all over the World, a lot more than successful Indian diaspora.

In the US, many Indians r drivers, hotel/restaurant staff, shops, & the like. The overseas Chinese have Chinatowns while the Gypsies have small villages inhabited by craftsmen, smiths, musicians, traders, & petty criminals. Sorry, but I don't expect India to be treated as = to Russia or China in my lifetime.

- FYI, there was a plan to strike at Beijing from Mongolia in the event of Chinese aggression in the Soviet FE.

-she'll help Pakistan if the war happens over Kashmir. That's enough for the Indian leadership to sleep with 1 eye open.

.- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.

- by the same token, modernized An-2 biplanes & MiG-21/J-7s r still useful; so r the F-4/5/14/15/16/18s in many AFs.

- they r the same type of weapons that were used since 1991 in the ME & Afghanistan; at least some of them were successful, even if misused.

-if it's not ur friend, it's a potential enemy, esp. if it's closely allied with Pakistan armed with American, Russian, French & Chinese weapons that is a real enemy.

-as I said before, they r buying political influence as added value to the actual product.

- they didn't completely replace them.

- but she produces other things & has big trade surplus with enough $ to buy many things she can't produce.

   

she is unique & therefore must learn from her own mistakes.

GarryB wrote:

.- the Indians want to be able to patrol their IO anywhere anytime & challenge any1 they perceive as a threat.

They don't really need aircraft carriers for that...- if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.

Even if they become the best of friends with the PRC & Pakistan, appearing of being weaker isn't going to do them any good.

I would agree but don't think pissing away billions of dollars on useless American shit makes them look stronger... it makes them look under Americas thumb and therefore an extension of America...- but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb; then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations. The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit.
Carriers give world access to the Indian Navy but would take days to get from Pakistani waters to Chinese waters... a bomber would take hours or a day at most. ..Buy MiG-31s and Kinzhal missiles and no enemy navy will get within 2,000km of Indian waters.-they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.
why would naval fighters and EMALS cats they haven't fully developed for themselves yet be suddenly cheap? -they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.

.-the Block III isn't ancient at all-get over it!

The aerodynamic design is ancient.- so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?
So they get crappy old steam technology that everyone is moving away from...-at least it's proven & more reliable, until better equipment is mature.
Because they will only get US permission to fight China and not anyone else which makes them counter to Indian interests...- I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years? Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.

The US use Guam as an airfield but there is nothing else there...- the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.
It is possible you might be adolf hitler but is there any point in taking the possibility seriously? no, it's not possible- he wouldn't have lived till 2021 even if he survived in 1945.

India did invade Bangladesh

Bangledesh and Pakistan are both India. no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.

Argentina hadn't invaded any1 for over a 100 years before 1982.

The Falklands are more Argentinian geographically than British...- true; by the same token, India may feel justified invading Sri Lanka. If Tasmania/Hainan were independent islands, under certain circumstances Australia/China could be compelled to invade them too.
And Russia is certainly better off for it...-but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.

- because independent socialist USSR was a big threat to the Western run capitalism by its very existence.

The Soviets could have provided cheap skilled labour to the west and produced all their consumer shit the way China does now...- unlike China, Russia beat the West many times & regardless of ideology, Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR- look like Greece & Turkey is been & being treated by the US & EU today, as u wrote: Turkey is getting hostility from most of HATO now..

-FYI, their new CV/N will be CATOBAR.

So you are saying they have committed to spending billions on cats...- to keep up with the PRC, & maybe not as much as $Bs.

-they wisely chose not to bite the hand that feeds them.

They bite that hand all the time... Israel is always doing things to piss off the US.- only up to a certain point.
China has decades of experience of making their own planes. Most are knockoffs of other peoples planes but they are making them all themselves.- India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.
I know they could probably be made to work but the US does not want India using S-400s and they sure as hell wont want them using A-50s either...-then, no need to buy E-3s AWACS or the like, if India is to save $. Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.

-they won't be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific like those in the USN; it'll take a lot longer between next refueling is due.

And everything on board uses electrical power which means running reactors... and that includes the steam catapults... and unlike the Kuznetsov every aircraft taking off from a US carrier needs cat launch because they don't have ski jumps.- they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.
An all American fleet will be too expensive... even the Americans can't afford it...-their fleet won't be as big, but IMO they can integrate US gear with non-US aircraft, since the Rafales cross decked with a USN CVN & the A-4s operated from ex-French Brazilian & ex-British Australian CVs. British designed & US modified Harriers operate on USN LHAs, as well as Italian & Spanish CVs.

-I would like to read that stipulation- do u have a reference to share?

I read it on this forum.- here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashwa_(L41)#Controversy
don't put=between an LHD, a multi-role ship that was acquired for training & HADR & multi-role fighters F-18s! Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.

-they could use 3 F-18s for 360 degree coverage if no other AWACS r in the area.

So three F-18s flying in three completely different directions.... but they can't do that without leaving the area. -they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.

India could even buy/lease Iranian F-4/14s &/ barter them for some Su-30s.

If relations with the US go bad those carriers will become useless very very quickly- they have good hands & brains to avoid that.
and Iran can barely keep the American planes they have flying there is no way they could offer to sell any to India and supply parts to keep them operational...- theoretically it's possible, & they mastered parts production into which India could invest. The US will be also happy that the IrAF won't have as many F-14s, & could even help India to upgrade them.

The Israelis could then help with their upgrading, if need be.

If India is in the shit with the US there is no way Israel will be helping... especially if they are talking to Iran about aircraft or parts.- China was not in the shit with the US for decades; now India took that role, & it'll be a long time, if ever, before India becomes US adversary.
Japan and the US are no more allies of India than China is.-no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.
Change is inevitable.- I won't bet on it being for the better.
The Indians in Fiji basically run the place and the native Fijians regularly have coups when an ethnic Indian leader is elected there.-where else the Indians r so "successful"? The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of. We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.
Chinatowns can and do have craftsmen and smiths and musicians and criminals etc etc too...-that's a very small portion of Chinese, as most of them live in the suburbs, among the general population, at least in USA & Canada.
The boundaries are what they are in Kashmir... if Pakistan wants to invade and take more land they might find themselves losing land in return...
Chinese influence would be minimal.- with her BRI, etc. there, China won't let India take any Pakistani territory; India will lose more if she goes too far.

.- I live near the Mexican border & traveled to/from Mexico & Canada many times- there r no outstanding claims, at least on the official level.

Not from an American perspective... you stole that land fair and square...-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.
they might have different thoughts on the matter though.- true, on a sentimental level. It'll take many years for their "Reconquista" to become a real issue. Even if those areas secede, they won't become part of Mexico again.
No good as a front line fighter in the 2030s... why get something ancient when you can buy something newer?- like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.
China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.
Not used by India since 1991.-if a rifle is on the wall in the 1st act, it'll be used in the 3rd.
They have made it clear by supplying weapons to terrorists in Kashmir.- the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain. Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.
But she does not make that much money that they can piss away billions to suck up to an America that would screw them over in a heartbeat if it suited.

- if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.

- but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb;

then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations.

The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit

-they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.

-they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.

- so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?

-at least it's proven & more reliable, until better equipment is mature.

- I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years?

Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.

- the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.

no, it's not possible- he wouldn't have lived till 2021 even if he survived in 1945.

no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.

-but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.

Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR

- look like Greece & Turkey is been & being treated by the US & EU today, as u wrote: Turkey is getting hostility from most of HATO now..

- India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.

Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.

- they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.

.-their fleet won't be as big, but IMO they can integrate US gear with non-US aircraft, since the Rafales cross decked with a USN CVN

don't put=between an LHD, a multi-role ship that was acquired for training & HADR & multi-role fighters F-18s!

Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.

-they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.

- they have good hands & brains to avoid that.

.- theoretically it's possible, & they mastered parts production into which India could invest.

The US will be also happy that the IrAF won't have as many F-14s, & could even help India to upgrade them.p

- China was not in the shit with the US for decades; now India took that role, & it'll be a long time, if ever, before India becomes US adversary.

-no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.

- I won't bet on it being for the better.

.-where else the Indians r so "successful"?

The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of.

We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.

-that's a very small portion of Chinese, as most of them live in the suburbs, among the general population, at least in USA & Canada.

.-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.

.- true, on a sentimental level. It'll take many years for their "Reconquista" to become a real issue. Even if those areas secede, they won't become part of Mexico again.

- like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.

China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.

the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain.

Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.p

they did piss away billions on Russian & French arms & now want to try the American arms, hoping to gain something from it.

GarryB wrote:

- if, as u state, the RF needs them to protect SLOCs, so does India with her overseas trade.

India wont be deploying carrier groups much beyond their own waters for some time now... as you keep pointing out their main focus is their neighbours with which they already share large land borders... -the PRC & Pakistan also have modern navies that India can't ignore, & they'll be used against her together with their land & air forces.

- but if they keep getting only Russian arms instead, China will know that they r under the RF thumb;

Buying Russian stuff because Russia tells them to buy Russian stuff and not buy anyone elses stuff would be India under Russias thumb.-true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.

then defending her interests will be harder in the context of present PRC-RF relations.

Only buying Russian gear means they will be armed with much better weapons in much greater numbers for less money spent... for the cost of 36 Rafales they could have probably gotten a couple of brand new aircraft carriers built by Russia including full air groups.- India doesn't need be sanctioned for buying Russian arms lest her trade surplus goes down; they needed Rafales & got them sooner, & want to build their own CVs.
For 15 billion for leasing Hornets they could probably get 300 Su-57 5th gen fighters plus a huge pile of weapons to go with them.- we don't know the exact amount & what it'll include; they r ready now, while the 300 Su-57s won't be any time soon.

The "American shit" is not much more useless, if at all, than the Russian or french shit

They will quickly find that American shit is not really fully compatible so to make it work they need to withdraw perfectly good existing systems and equipment and replace it with American shit... A-50s replaced by Hawkeyes, Il-78s replaced by Boeing tankers, Su-30MKIs replaced with brand new build F-15s most likely...-no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.

-they have the E. & W. Fleets; the latter probably has the SCS in its AOR. But the Indian strategy is to defend her turf, not expand into the W. Pacific.

If they don't want global expansion then they don't need aircraft carriers... that is what aircraft carriers are for... to allow your ships to operate anywhere with independent aircraft support.- then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them? China, Japan & S. Korea also have/will have them too. Canada, Australia & Argentina had them as well- none of them r/were aiming at "global expansion". Their SIZE & doctrinal employment matters.

-they could invest le$$ into Russian EMALS in a win-win for both.

The Americans would not approve of using US aircraft on Russian developed EMALS, and equally even if they part fund the project which seems to have already developed a prototype system for deployment on the Kuznetsov for testing, the Russians will want India to use MiGs rather than much more expensive Hornets.-they could use both to make them happy.

- so r the F-15Es, Su-27/30/33s & MiG-29/35/31s which r similar to the F-18E/Fs. So, is getting more newer Rafales better, even if they'll cost a lot more?

The claim was that they wanted the Hornet over the MiG-29 because they wanted something newer... the hornet is older than the MiG-29 not newer.-if they order new F-18E/Fs after they get trained on the leased batch, they'll be newer. Later there will be Block IV, V, & VI they could be upgraded to.

- I ask again: which other nations besides PRC & Pakistan will/may India need to fight in the next 20-30years?

Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand? Since they r all in the China orbit for decades to come, the US would be delighted. If not, India will have many other types of fighters to use against any of them.

These American planes they might potentially buy will be totally different from anything they have operated before and need a completely new infrastructure to support then and new operational mentality to use properly... and they will be three to four times more expensive than anything comparable they could buy from Russia, so the reason for pissing all this money away is that it might make the US look favourably on India... perhaps... maybe... that is a huge risk and a serious waste of money that could be invested in development and growth in India that will give rather more benefit to the Indian people.-they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.

- the Apra Harbor hosts SSNs & can serve LHA/Ds, FFGs, DDGs, CGs, CVNs & SSBNs.

My apologies... I thought it was just an airfield but they have clearly made it murder central for the region... not sure that effects anything though.-together with Okinawa, Taiwan, Philippines, Australia, Hawaii, & Diego Garcia, it does effect many things.
you might be a clone.- only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.

no, they r former India that was held together by the UK.

Pakistanies and Bangledeshis and Indias are like Georgians, Texans, and Californians... but each with different religions.- wrong comparison: they don't speak the same languages & have completely different histories & mentalities.

-but now she has to regain her buffer areas or be more vulnerable to pressure/interventions.

No she does not... buffer states are useless, and the cost of maintaining them makes them undesirable.-wrong: Ukraine still dominates Crimea & the Russian enclave in Moldova, not to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus. The roads to N. Caucasus r also between 479 km wide corridor formed by borders of Ukraine & Kazakhstan.

Catholic & Protestants wouldn't invest in the Orthodox & Muslim Russia like they did in the PRC with her longest border with the USSR

Russia was athiest just like communist China...There is little christian brotherly love today either...- Stalin industrialized USSR with Western help, but the WWII & the CW changed all that; the Soviets in any case wouldn't adopt well to Western work ethic. The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.

- India can do the same & has to start somewhere; if the F-18s r stop gap, no need to copy them.

There are thousands of different components that go in to a modern aircraft... they would be better to create industries to make some of those components for all Indian aircraft than trying to make a whole plane on their own.-they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.

Btw, Pakistan also use China's supplied Y-8 AWACS together with French & US made fighters.

Pakistan got arab money or US loans. US loans can only be used for US planes. The US would tolerate Pakistan buying from Europe but would not tolerate Pakistan buying Soviet or Russian gear in significant numbers...-that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.

- they won't be spending 6-10 months at sea, so their fuel will last a lot longer; ski rumps could be added, so only 2 catapults will remain, or all 4 will be used less.

Ski jumps are not compatible with cats, and if they are operating in Indian waters then it makes rather more sense to use existing land based aircraft rather than buying new carriers that wont be going anywhere.- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.
From the American position it is less charitable... they sold them landing ship technology but basically said they couldn't use it in combat... at the time meaning you can't use it against our other customers in the region.... Pakistan.-INS Jalashwa (Sanskrit/Hindi: Hippopotamus) is an amphibious transport dock currently in service with the Indian Navy. Formerly USS Trenton, she, along with six Sikorsky SH-3 Sea King helicopters were procured from the United States by India for a total of US$90 million in 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashwa_(L41)
It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.
Something similar is happening now with India.... they now find India is more useful against China than Pakistan is,..- the letter was never meant to be used against the PRC; it was used against the Indian & Soviet interests in S. Asia.

Besides, the ex-Varyag was sold to the PRC "for non mil. use only" too; now it's combat ready.

That was sold by the Ukraine and I very much doubt there were any stipulations on that sale except take it away and give me the cash.- yes, that condition was there to save Ukrainian reputation. The contract with Ukraine prohibited the buyer from using Varyag for military purposes.

-they could go back & forth. India can also get OHRs to cover the area between E. Africa & Australia, besides using her IL-38s, A-50s & P-8s.

Not really the same. Plus the best ground based long range radars are Russian and the US is likely to object...-the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.
What Iran did was incredibly hard and if they had any other choice they would have taken it in a heart beat...It just takes a China friendly president to change everything... like Biden... he might dial back all the anti china rhetoric and India is left high and dry before anything even starts. -Israel also had embargoes against it
but kept winning all the air wars; there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.
It is theoretically possible, but also bloody stupid to make it your plan. Iran couldn't make parts for Hornets if they wanted to... -no, the F-14 parts, if India gets them.
India has no carriers an F-14 could operate from. -once they get a new CV/N, it could.
Iran only had F-14A aircraft with the older weak engines... not the upgraded F-14D models.- still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!

-no, their alliance becomes only stronger by each month.

The only thing the US and Japan has in common with India is that they all fear China... a totally irrational fear because China does not mean any of them harm in the way the US harms countries.- China liberated herself from the Mongols but the Mongols in India were replaced by the Timurids. India doesn't want to be junior to, & be dominated by China, in anything. It was never a tributary state like Korea & Japan. That's also why there r no Chinatowns in India.

The ethnic Chinese also ran Singapore & Thailand, where anti-Chinese riots/coups based on race alone r unheard of.

Lots of tension in Thailand and Singapore over ethnic Chinese... they are no where near to running either country that is just silly.-not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand; the coup was over his economic policies. The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.

We now have VP-elect 1/2 Indian C. Harris, but she won't rule alone & many Ms of White Americans r for Trump.

Hahaha... you say it like it means anything... I guess two terms of Obama in the White house and problems of racism are all solved and black people can walk the streets in safety now...-there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people. That's the price for bring African slaves to the Americas.

.-not me, they did it long before I showed up here in 1988.

Not you personally, but you are living on stolen land... like the children of a drug cartel boss who live in comfort on the dividends from criminal activity...-I lived only on the Gadsden Purchase land, acquired 6 years after the US-Mexico War. The SW USA has Ms of Hispanics already & if more of them come, it won't bother me.

- like those Su-33/34/35s or MiG-35s based on the Su-27 & the MiG-29? Those r not radical new designs, by any stretch.

By 2030 it will be Su-57 and LMFS and Su-33 and MiG-35s with parts and engines and radars and weapons from the Su-57 and LMFS programmes which will make them vastly more potent than the aircraft around today.- until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.

China/India could get Tu-22Ms/F-15Es/16s but chose to modernize H-6s & get Rafales & F-18E/F Block IIIs, respectively.

Hahaha... India has not chosen anything yet ..- they'll highly likely, or that news leak wouldn't have seen the light of day.
China will likely make a flying wing stealth bomber to replace the H-6 anyway.- they r too new & useful to be replaced anytime soon. Even the B-52s weren't replaced by the B-1B/2s & the Tu-160s didn't replace the Tu-95s.

the bottom line is: China & India r the 2 tigers that have a hard time sharing the same mountain.

Both are well fed, there is no reason to cross in to the others territory and risk a fight that could lead to fatal injuries to either or both parties.- some people r very hard to reason with, & these 2 r blaming each other of trespassing, leading to many injuries & deaths.

Pakistan won't be able to observe their fight, if it comes, from a safe point.p

Pakistan has been funding terrorists for decades...-against Soviet & Indian state terrorism, created by British colonization of S. Asia & its less than graceful exit from it.
Russia wont put up with this crap forever, ..-there r long term weapons systems service & base use agreements, as well as leasing of SSNs with the RF, & she will use India as a leverage if/when US-China relations improve again.
India has a future... no matter how bad they fuck up, but one future is independence and growth and development with BRICS and the other is a colony of the west... a bitch... a tool to contain China... and when that pans out one way or the other expect to be discarded pretty quick... like Pakistan or Ukraine when you are no longer useful.

-the PRC & Pakistan also have modern navies that India can't ignore, & they'll be used against her together with their land & air forces.

-true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.

- India doesn't need be sanctioned for buying Russian arms lest her trade surplus goes down; they needed Rafales & got them sooner, & want to build their own CVs.

.- we don't know the exact amount & what it'll include; they r ready now, while the 300 Su-57s won't be any time soon.

-no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.

- then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them?

-they could use both to make them happy.

-if they order new F-18E/Fs after they get trained on the leased batch, they'll be newer. Later there will be Block IV, V, & VI they could be upgraded to.

-they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.

- only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.

- wrong comparison: they don't speak the same languages & have completely different histories & mentalities.

-wrong: Ukraine still dominates Crimea

to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus.

the Soviets in any case wouldn't adopt well to Western work ethic.

The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.

-they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.

-that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.

.- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.

It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.

-the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.

there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.

-no, the F-14 parts, if India gets them.

-once they get a new CV/N, it could.

- still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!

-not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand;

The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.

-there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people.

- until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.

.- they'll highly likely, or that news leak wouldn't have seen the light of day.

they r too new & useful to be replaced anytime soon. Even the B-52s weren't replaced by the B-1B/2s & the Tu-160s didn't replace the Tu-95s.

-against Soviet & Indian state terrorism,

-there r long term weapons systems service & base use agreements, as well as leasing of SSNs with the RF, & she will use India as a leverage if/when US-China relations improve again.

Now India is between the American & Chinese Empires which may aid in her farther breakup, as was done with Yugoslavia.

The roads to N. Caucasus r also between

Tsavo Lion wrote:there were some hate crimes against Indians here, & it may come to the point that Whites will start emigrating to Canada or Australia/NZ so they don't have to live with & be ruled by colored people.

GarryB wrote:The Indian Navy wont be fighting in the south Atlantic... fighting on the west coast or east coast of India will be with the full support of much cheaper much more capable land based aircraft.- they want to be able to operate with the US & RNs, not just off the coast, possibly near the Malacca Strait & in the SC Sea.

-true, but India that lost a war to & fears China will be diplomatically constrained since RF & PRC now work hand in glove against the hostile West.

A US that basically kept Pakistan fully armed and funded during most of its conflicts with India...- back then she was leaning to USSR who had its own PRC problem; not relevant now & for the next decade or more.

India will be sanctioned by the US you are a fool to think otherwise... as soon as S-400s start arriving and any discussions on any other big purchases and CAATSA will be used... that is what it is for.... to force India to buy Patriot and THAAD instead...-much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions; India won't get humiliated.

15 billion could include free CVNs for all that matters, Su-57s would be of far more use to India...-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF/N.

A 5th gen stealth fighter would be vastly more valuable to India than a 4th gen carrier aircraft on some old worn out aircraft carrier...-they'll be 4+ gen.; an "old worn out aircraft carrier" is being continuously maintained to be sea/mission ready & will be modified/ernized for her needs.

-no need to, they r not mutually exclusive: she can use both Russian & Western AWACS, tankers & fighters.

Not how America operates... you are either with us or you are with the terrorists... the Ukraine could not integrate into the EU and HATO and still have strong trade relations with Russia...- the US overpaid for the MI-17s which were bought for the Afghan AF; Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.

- then why Russia, Spain, France, Brazil, Thailand & Italy have them?

the tiny carriers are for show and are worse than useless because they are cheaper but not actually cheap and really can't do the job a slightly more expensive but bigger ship could do.- Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO; India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.

-they could use both to make them happy.

It would make no sense to use both MiG-29s and Hornets.... especially as the price of hornets would mean they couldn't afford anything else anyway.- even if so, those MiG-29s could be transferred to the AF or sold.

I very much doubt the F-18s would fit on the lifts and would certainly not be compatible with the equipment and systems.- they can stay topside; the Vikrant is same/bigger & future CVNs, even if not ex-USN, will be even more roomy.

The instruments in the American plane will be in feet and pounds for goodness sake... how backward is that?-they can be remarked; digital displays may be able show both.

-they see at as chance o become a superpower = to PRC & Russia. India won't be the 1st nation operating American made fighters in S/W/E Asia, & they can do it. To them, the risk is worth it.

Yeah because all US allies have risen up to become super powers... the US does everything it can to encourage that happening... NOT.-Japan, SK, Iran(before 1979), Turkey, Pakistan, Australia, Brazil, & France became strong regional powers under US "protection" & tutelage, if not tacit support. India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. W/o a common border, she's also secure from any Russian pressure.

India has more of a chance to become a real INDEPENDENT superpower with BRICS... than with the US.-an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth. If India had Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, then she could become a superpower. Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.

- only if I looked like him & had the same DNA, but I don't.

Are you confusing a clone with an identical twin?-clone has the same DNA as its donor.

to mention Kaliningrad that is cut off by Lithuania & Belarus.

Kaliningrad is completely secure. -but NATO may think otherwise.

The Fiat built the now famous auto factory there which stopped producing quality cars as soon as the Italian managers & engineers left.

Which shows they were there to make some money and not to actually teach anyone...- I heard many workers were fired by Italians for being lazy & their lack of discipline. In the USSR, there was no incentive to work well at state enterprises; after the Italians left, it became another Soviet mis-managed auto plant. Old habits die hard!

-they can just lease/buy as many as they need to be used till their own fighters r in production.

If they are just going to be using foreign parts why not just buy 3-4 times cheaper foreign made weapons and aircraft..
I like chocolate ice cream with a particular flavor, but if there's another flavor, I'll want to try it too, as it might taste better. The same with Russian & US made aircraft. India got so used to MiGs & Sukhois like tire shop mechs & clerks to new tire smell; she may feel its time to try Hornets, esp. if it'll show China that she means  business.  

-that's ancient history now, as she's a PRC protectorate.

The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents.

.- they'll operate in the N. IO bathtub that has strong monsoons which allow the catapults not to work at full capacity. CVNs can sail into such wind at 21kts & will get enough lift for anything with wings.

Land based runways allow existing aircraft to operate already... and for no extra cost.- the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea, but builds/will start building her 3rd/4th carriers + dozens of escorts. India also has SLOCs & islands to protect.

It was a good bargain, & the Indians knew that their relations with Pakistan will not get better while with the US will.

Wasn't a bargain at all... it was the US disposing of rubbish and India buying it... and they will be paying top dollar to keep those helicopter flying.- Iran also kept flying them since 1979, India "got what she paid for'.

-the Russians could be paid to build them & the US can object all they want.

They can block weapons used on the Rafale... they can block any F-16 or F-18 sale or parts if purchases have already been made...- I don't think they'll risk antagonizing & losing India over that.

there's less risk for India as her interests r not in conflict with the US & NATO interests, & they won't be, if ever, to the same degree as the conflict of their interests with China's. In any event, the US will maintain good relations with India as an insurance policy & for extra leverage vs. the PRC.

If India decides to have better relations with Russia and China any strings or attachments made will be used to punish India... ruthlessly.- in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.

India could not make a Carrier able to carry F-14s... the F-14 is big and heavy and totally obsolete rubbish.- even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board. With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.

- still, not bad as a stop gap & training plane!

Yes... very bad... fucking useless in fact... not just useless but bloody expensive to get flying and keep flying and useless as shit if you could even get it flying from a ground base. Carrier ops... never happen.- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying. U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!

-not true. Thais & Chinese been coexisting peacefully for centuries; Taksin is ethnic Chinese & did run Thailand;

How many chinese marry in to the thai royal family?-the King was a respected figurehead & not much more. The Thais came for S. China, so ethnically they r not that different anyway.

The Singapore founder was also Chinese, & they run its economy.

Chinese also run Taiwan... I guess China is best buddies with them...-what matters is that PRC & Singapore so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.

Our local Maori eat white supremacists...-but they still failed to stop the recent mosque attack by an Australian.

- until then, the Super F-18s r the planes of their choice.

No it isn't. They have not chosen anything. This is American companies talk and pro American Indians talk. Means nothing at all.-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or Su-30/35s instead.

Tu-16s are not strategic bombers, they are theatre bombers... more comparable with Tu-22Ms than Tu-95s or B-52s.- with IRPs, they r strategic in the E/SE Asia context, & that's why the PLAAF will keep them, under H-6 designations.

Or she might think India is now Americas bitch and down grade the relationship to customer status and stop offering her their best stuff... stuff they wont sell or lease to anyone else...-which will be OK as she always complains about quality & tech support for imported Russian arms.

Playing with the west is playing with fire... the question is... do you burn your finger tips, or are we talking about full cremation.- a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.

The roads to N. Caucasus r also between

Love to see HATO try and narrow that gap even by a few metres...

But then if White Americans can carry out hate crimes against Indians on a regular basis (as they normally do) why should they migrate to Canada, Australia, NZ?

For instance, earlier today several Indian players were abused in Australia simply because Australia could not win a test match at home.

they want to be able to operate with the US & RNs, not just off the coast, possibly near the Malacca Strait & in the SC Sea.

- back then she was leaning to USSR who had its own PRC problem; not relevant now & for the next decade or more.

-much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions;

India won't get humiliated.

.-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF.

- the US overpaid for the MI-17s which were bought for the Afghan AF

Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico , & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.

- Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO;

India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.

- even if so, those MiG-29s could be transferred to the AF or sold.

.- they can stay topside

Vikrant is bigger & future CVNs, even if not ex-USN, will be even more roomy.

-they can be remarked; digital displays may be able show both.

-Japan, SK, Iran(before 1979), Turkey, Pakistan, Australia, Brazil, & France became strong regional powers under US "protection" & tutelage, if not tacit support.

India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. She's also secure from any Russian pressure.

-an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth.

Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.

-clone has the same DNA as its donor.

-but NATO may think otherwise.

- I heard many workers were fired by Italians for being lazy & their lack of discipline. In the USSR, there was no incentive to work well at state enterprises; after the Italians left, it became another Soviet mis-managed auto plant. Old habits die hard!

I like chocolate ice cream with a particular flavor, but if there's another flavor, I'll want to try it too, as it might taste better. The same with Russian & US made aircraft. India got so used to MiGs & Sukhois like tire shop mechs & clerks to new tire smell; she may feel its time to try Hornets,

esp. if it'll show China that she means business.

The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents .

- the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea but builds her 3rd carrier.

- I don't think they'll risk losing India over that.

- in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.

- even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board . With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.

.- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying.

U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!

The Thais came for S. China, so ethnically they r not that different anyway.

.-what matters is that PRC & China so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.

-but they still failed to stop the recent mosque attack by an Australian.

.-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or some other fighters instead.

- with IRPs, they r strategic in the E/SE Asia context, & that's why the PLAAF will keep them, under H-6 designations.

which will be OK as she always complains about quality & support for imported Russian arms.

- a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.

Israel also has nukes, strong army, navy & AF but won't let go of the West Bank & the Gollans. Do u get my meaning?

there r a lot more Blacks here that can fight back, as recent events showed.

GarryB wrote:If India wants a war with China...- she doesn't; she wants to be able to prevent a war with her & Pakistan, by getting stronger & better prepared.

-much smaller Turkey got & tested them against F-16/35s despite sanctions;

Got and tested what? No F-35s flew in Turkish airspace. -and possibly F-22s too.

India won't get humiliated.

India is being fleeced and led down the path to war with a large and powerful neighbour... who gives a fuck about pride... this is going to cost millions of lives and piss away trillions of dollars in an unnecessary conflict...- the US is capitalizing on India's fears; it's an old "maintaining the balance of power" play perfected by the British in Europe but now applied in Asia.

.-she can order them too, once they see it's what they need. But they won't be delivered in time as the VKS is more important then the IAF.

India making major purchases of US equipment including CVNs might cool down relations with Russia to the point where they might decide not to sell their best stuff any more.-iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India.

The lease on the nuclear sub they currently operate might be the last... but it is OK... - Indian Navy officials have confirmed ongoing efforts to get its hands on another nuclear-powered submarine from Moscow after India signed a $3 billion deal in 2019. ..India has shown interest in Boeing’s twin engine multi-role fighters F-15EX, contradicting America's proposal of F-16 and F-18. Boeing Vice President Pratyush Kumar stated in February 2020 that the company was seeking a license to export the F-15EX to India.The new submarine is expected to arrive by 2025.

Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, & Peru operate(d) US & Soviet/Russian made aircraft.

The US tolerates it ..-as u call used US arms junk, the US calls new Russian arms junk, as it's downgraded for export & not as good (in their view) as theirs. India now has nothing to lose as she already got sanctioned for S-400 deal & can still buy other Russian arms.

- Indian CV/Ns won't be tiny (if Vikramaditya can use MiG-29Ks, Vikrant can handle F-14/18s), & be useful to US/NATO in "policing" the IO;

What the fuck business does the US or HATO have in the Indian Ocean... just that statement shows your and their agenda...-I got no agenda, just try to explain their possible strategy. The US/EU has global agenda & interests; NATO been expanding its AORs since 9/11/01.
Fuck HATO, India can already dominate the Indian ocean...-not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.

India meanwhile has her own score with China to settle; if the PLAN has to establish a permanent IO squadron or deploy more assets there, its forces will get stretched, making the US 7th fleet job easier.

Hilarious that the plan is to make the Indian Navy into a surrogate US Naval force.... America is using them in their new proxy war against China because China is becoming an economic rival to the US hegemony...-it may end up that way; but if not, both navies will balance the PLAN & PN there, effectively keeping them in check.

Future Indian Carriers are not certain and at the very least will be decades away. Hornets will be obsolete by then.- the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.

India has a chance to reap the same benefit, being non-PRC friendly & having a long land border with it & her other Asian friends. She's also secure from any Russian pressure.

India was in the process of greatly increasing trade and relations with Russia... investments in the Russian Far East energy projects... if they want to get in to bed with Uncle Sam that is going to have to stop for a start...-they can do it through front companies. also, both r weaning away from the US$ by using other currencies &/ bartering.

-an independent regional, but not a superpower, truncated as she is, with no strategic depth.

What strategic depth did the UK have when it was a super power...- she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa. what strategic depth did the Soviets have...- the Urals & Siberia is what helped defeat the Nazi Germany & her allies. Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.

[qutoe] If India had Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Nepal, Tibet, Indochina, & Indonesia, then she could become a superpower.

Being allied with RF & PRC will put her in subordinated position to either or both.

-clone has the same DNA as its donor.

-but NATO may think otherwise.

The CIA still operates in Pakistan and murder drones still fly there too.- it's easier to say were the CIA doesn't operate with drones; I doubt they r active there now, after killing so many innocents .

- the PRC has them in & near the SC Sea but builds her 3rd carrier.

- I don't think they'll risk losing India over that.

- in that case, she won't need F-18s & can then sell them.

- even the CV-41 & CV-61 which were narrower than Vikramaditya had them on board . With wings spread, they get enough lift to take off the rump.

.- it won't be more costly than what Iran pays to keep them flying.

U said they could be upgraded in the USN service instead of developing F-18E/Fs (& which u complain will be too costly to India), but deny the same to the INAF. Good example of ur bias 2x standard!

.-what matters is that PRC & Singapore so far avoided becoming bitter enemies.

.-if it is so, they would have bought more Rafales or some other fighters instead.

- a dying organism wants to live longer & only prolongs its agony. India hopes to survive longer in its struggle with China now; later she may discard the West & join the BRI to the delight of all of S. Asia & Russia, but by then she'll be reduced to her true size.

there r a lot more Blacks here that can fight back, as recent events showed.

- she doesn't; she wants to be able to prevent a war with her & Pakistan, by getting stronger & better prepared.

No F-35s flew in Turkish airspace. -and possibly F-22s too .

- the US is capitalizing on India's fears; it's an old "maintaining the balance of power" play perfected by the British in Europe but now applied in Asia.

-iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India .

-as u call used US arms junk, the US calls new Russian arms junk, as it's downgraded for export & not as good (in their view) as theirs.

India now has nothing to lose as she already got sanctioned for S-400 deal & can still buy other Russian arms.

-not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.

- the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.

-they can do it through front companies. also, both r weaning away from the US$ by using other currencies &/ bartering.

- she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa.

Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.

-they r not contagious, but separated by oceans & r too ethnically/racially diverse to form a superpower.

Even similar nations of L. America couldn't hold together after becoming independent of Spain.

.-they'll also act accordingly.

.-they all were busted & the spies executed;

- that Bushism is long dead. Greece bought S-300s & is still on good terms with USA. It's way too early to put a cross on India-US relations.

Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.- better late than never. If they were leased, no need to sell, just return. The Indians r not stupid!

- or they could use a big ship/barge with big lifts & hangar bays that can join their CVs at the stern to tow F-14/18s onto their flight decks. It could also carry AWACS & SAR/COD planes/helos & UAVs, etc.

-I doubt it. they cannibalized & smuggled parts before learning to produce them. Now they can also make their own fighters based on the F-5.

Iran could help with all that, no need for India to get involved with a few training/stop gap planes.

- I don't want India to do anything.

As Sun Tzu stated: "know ur enemy, know urself & u'll not be defeated".

the USSR didn't look like it was going to, but it did with a bang.

- some would, but most people want to be left alone & r tired of having to be politically correct with Blacks & LGBT

GarryB wrote:So the justification for not allowing Turkey to take delivery of its F-35s is bullshit then if they already tracked F-35s and F-22s in Syria...- it's a punishment.

-iIMO Russia can't afford to walk away from a large arms/nuclear energy market in India .

India is not really giving them much choice... and once they have some solid contracts signed the US is going to very much limit Indias ability to manouver too with all sorts of demands...- India isn't that stupid & won't sign any big contracts with bad fine print to be able to play the US, France & RF off each other.  

-not w/o being challenged on land, in the air & at sea by Pakistan & PRC combine.

What are you talking about?
The sea power of Pakistan is pathetic and could not challenge India... - China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar
and what else are the Indian Navy going to be doing... invading Pakistan and China simultaneously by air and land? What are the Indian Air Force and Army going to be doing?-getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.  

- the Vikrant will be commissioned soon; the Vishal CVN may not take more than 10-15 years to design & build.

The Vikrant is about 5 years late and over budget.... WTF are India going to do with 15 billion dollar Hornets for 15 years while they are waiting for carriers that can actually operate them?- the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.
They might as well buy F-16s... at least they would be cheaper... get second hand ones from European countries getting F-35s.- poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.

- she had Canada, Australia, India, Burma, Malaysia, & S. Africa.

Bullshit... Britain lost the Boer war and never commanded South Africa... and they lost India and Myanmar and Malaysia, so Canada and Australia.... what an empire... don't forget New Zealand too...- u asked "at the height of its power", before 1947, so I included them.

Population & arms factories were evacuated there, out of rich of enemy bombers.

The Germans didn't have any long range bombers.-exactly, & those plants were out of reach of those they did have. Even if their Ural bombers came out, they wouldn't have been very effective-by then, the Red AF would have enough bombers/fighters to deal with them on the ground & in the air.

-they r not contagious, but separated by oceans & r too ethnically/racially diverse to form a superpower.

Separated by oceans like Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand... -the Gr.  Britain ruled those waves with the RN.
and what does race have to do with anything...you claimed India was an important part of the British empire... well was she or wasn't she?-she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.

Even similar nations of L. America couldn't hold together after becoming independent of Spain.

Spain lost power and the US stepped in to that power vacuum...-that happened many decades later, after the 1848 US-Mexico & 1898 Spanish-American Wars.

- that Bushism is long dead. Greece bought S-300s & is still on good terms with USA. It's way too early to put a cross on India-US relations.

Alive and kicking. Greece is too important to HATO and the EU to drop. Ukraine on the other hand has to choose and it can't choose Russia... and the same with Georgia and Belarus if they get any say.- India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.

Took about 12 years before the US let us sell some... assholes.- better late than never. If they were leased, no need to sell, just return. The Indians r not stupid!

They have not signed anything so there is nothing to return. -that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!
India doesn't want old American shit... they don't want and have never expressed any interest in F-14s or F-4s or F-5s or A-4s or Mustangs. -After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EXs (see my prev. post), which would replace their MiG-25s, take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s.
It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?

- or they could use a big ship/barge with big lifts & hangar bays that can join their CVs at the stern to tow F-14/18s onto their flight decks. It could also carry AWACS & SAR/COD planes/helos & UAVs, etc.

Or they could make Dr Who's Tardis and have it sitting on the edge of the deck or even better the Masters Tardis and transform it into a big long box the size and shape of an F-14 but only 1m thick with a sliding door over the front and they could have it sitting on the edge of the deck and roll the F-14s on to the deck when you need them and take them in to the tardis when you don't... no need for elevators at all...-all of that is a lot more preposterous & absurdist than my idea.

-I doubt it. they cannibalized & smuggled parts before learning to produce them. Now they can also make their own fighters based on the F-5.

They can make a fighter that externally looks like an F-5, but an F-5 was cheap and simple to make which is why it sold well. Being able to make that is like being able to make a container ship and thinking you are ready to make CVNs.- China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop. The same with MiG-19/21s & Su-27/30/33s. In time, Iran will be able to make F-15/16/18 counterparts.

- I don't want India to do anything.

You want an Indian Meat Shield. You want someone to fight China because whoever fights China will take damage and you don't want the US to take that damage, so you are telling India to be tough and strong and that China will respect that and listen and treat you as an equal...-no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.

As Sun Tzu stated: "know ur enemy, know urself & u'll not be defeated".

So you are saying India should buy Hornets so they understand what their enemy flys... bloody expensive way to find that out...-Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons; they already have dozens of Su-30s that the PLA/NAF also flies. OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.

the USSR didn't look like it was going to, but it did with a bang.

Course it did... it was made up of about 13 very different regions with different ethnic groups.-15 republics & 11 time zones, 1/6th of the Earth surface with 4 main religions, & dozens of languages.

- it's a punishment.

- India isn't that stupid & won't sign any big contracts with bad fine print to be able to play the US, France & RF off each other.

- China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar

getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.

- the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.

- poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.

- u asked "at the height of its power", before 1947, so I included them.

-the Gr. Britain ruled those waves with the RN.

-she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.

- India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.

-that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!

-After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EX s

take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s .

It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?

-all of that is a lot more preposterous & absurdist than my idea.

- China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop.

The same with MiG-19/21s & Su-27/30/33s.

In time, Iran will be able to make F-15/16/18 counterparts.

-no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.

-Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons;

OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.

.-15 republics & 11 time zones, 1/6th of the Earth surface with 4 main religions, & dozens of languages.

GarryB wrote:Yeah, their track record so far has been amazing... paying about 230 million each for 36 Rafales when what they wanted was to licence produce Mirage 2000s...-they loved to get them more than keeping those $. Perhaps there was a specific capability their other planes didn't have vs. PLAAF planes.
They ended up having to emergency order 20 extra MiG-29s because their numbers are too low...-France too ordered C-130J tankers when their A400Ms weren't ready.

- China builds more ships, subs & planes for them & for Bangladesh with Myanmar

And they are doing that because India is getting in to bed with Japan and the US and Australia in an alliance against China...-their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.

getting/staying ready to deter/check/resist any Chinese naval expansion in the the IOR.  

The Indian ocean... despite its name is mostly international waters... they could park any ships they like there and  there is absolutely nothing India or the mighty US could do about it...-true, unless the straits r blocked. But in a Mexican standoff, when pistols r aimed at both heads, as was during the USSR-USA Cold war on the high seas, there's a better chance of avoiding ur head being blown off & resolving conflicts peasefully.

- the Vikrant will be able to use them, otherwise why test their rump performance in the US? should their own fighter not be ready by 2030-35, the Vishal will carry even more F-18s.

After buying F-18s to operate on the Vikrant they wont be able to afford any CVNs...-even if so, ex-US CVNs will do. Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.

- poor choice for a naval fighter for Indians who want it to have 2 engines.

All American planes are a poor choice.... don't try to polish a turd.-if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead. The Rafale deal is at least partially vindicated by u! Btw, the French do transfer t tech to India too.

-the Gr. Britain ruled those waves with the RN.

Bullshit. As soon as WWI and WWII started we were told that we were basically on our own.- I meant before WWI.
Many large New Zealand ports had big gun mounts... they were essentially built because the UK couldn't protect us and they weren't to stop the germans or the japs or even the americans or french.... they were built to stop the Russians.- how do u know that? Russia/USSR could care less about NZ since her 1st Antarctic discovery expedition ended, w/o any land claims there.

-she was, as her elites ruled her subjects on Britain's behalf. Just like the Dutch in Indonesia & French in Indochina.

The British, Dutch, and French were total bastards BTW.- not sure about the Germans, but the Portuguese & Belgians belong in that category too.

- India is in the class of her own that can't be dictated to like them; NK, Turkey & Pakistan r much weaker but stood up to US pressure.

No they aren't. The US knows the Indian elite think they need the west and the US in particular... it is just a question of eventually getting them to sign more and more contracts and then eventually they will have to do as they are told.-I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.

-that may change, so don't move the goal posts in our discussion!

Don't be silly.. it is critical to this discussion... you talk about it like they are going to start local production of F-18s and get steam catapult systems for their aircraft carriers... when nothing has been decided or signed...- I didn't say it'll absolutely be so, but it could.
when the Rafales turned out to be so expensive they went back to buying 20 more MiG-29s... and when the Hornet proves unsuitable and too expensive then they likely will take a look at the MiG-35 instead which would be a sensible choice...-Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia & many other nations have similar types of aircraft imported from several different makers. We don't live in a perfect world.

-After 2024, India can also/instead get F-15EX s

F-15EX couldn't replace Su-30s let alone MiG-25s.-their past/current/future missions r the same/similar.

take the F-111/Su-34 role & augment the IAF Su-30s .

so triple the price on a new type of aircraft that is totally different from anything else they operate for a plane similar to the Su-35.- we covered the influence buying issue before; their MiG-29 &/ Su-30 pilots can be trained to operate them in a few months, if not weeks.

It could even be navalized. R u going to call it an "old shit" too?

It can't be navalised....- if there's a will & need, there's a way.
and it is old shit in a new dress.-not different from Su-30/35 derived from the Su-27 or Tu-22M3/160M derived from Tu-22M/160 or IL-476 derived from the IL-76.

- China had 2 old Kiev TAKRs & HMAS Melbourne to study, finished the CV-16, & built CV-17; the CV-18 will be a flattop.

That is right, they did their home work...- the Iranians r of the same stock as the Indo-Europeans that settled N. India; they r good a doing homework too. Even the Chinese adopted many things from Persia.

-no, I'm neutral, but understand the reasoning behind US actions toward India in the context of their mutual rivalry with PRC.

Yeah, you support the US pushing India under the bus...-no, I do want them to make & keep peace with PRC, but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.

-Hornets won't give them that, but will expand their Horizons;

Course it does... the enemy for India is clearly the US.-sure, the worst thing to being enemies with Anglo-Saxons is being friends with them. But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too. It's no secret, at least to me, that many Asians hate each other's guts, be they of the same or different regions/countries.

OTH, China won't be getting airworthy captured F-15/18s any time soon, if ever.

I doubt they would be interested. ..The US pilots trained against the former E. German AF MiG-29s for a reason.

GarryB wrote:

Tejas Mk2 Planned for operation from INS Vikrant and INS Vishal and can . First 3 prototypes will be ready by 2028.

-they loved to get them more than keeping those $. Perhaps there was a specific capability their other planes didn't have vs. PLAAF planes.

-France too ordered C-130J tankers when their A400Ms weren't ready.

-their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.

-true, unless the straits r blocked.

But in a Mexican standoff, when pistols r aimed at both heads, as was during the USSR-USA Cold war on the high seas, there's a better chance of avoiding ur head being blown off & resolving conflicts peasefully.

-even if so, ex-US CVNs will do.

Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.

-if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead.

The Rafale deal is at least partially vindicated by u! Btw, the French do transfer t tech to India too .

- I meant before WWI.

- how do u know that? Russia/USSR could care less about NZ since her 1st Antarctic discovery expedition ended, w/o any land claims there.

- not sure about the Germans, but the Portuguese & Belgians belong in that category too.

I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.

.- I didn't say it'll absolutely be so, but it could.

-Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia & many other nations have similar types of aircraft imported from several different makers. We don't live in a perfect world.

-their past/current/future missions r the same/similar.

.- we covered the influence buying issue before; their MiG-29 &/ Su-30 pilots can be trained to operate them in a few months, if not weeks.

- if there's a will & need, there's a way.

-not different from Su-30/35 derived from the Su-27 or Tu-22M3/160M derived from Tu-22M/160 or IL-476 derived from the IL-76.

-no, I do want them to make & keep peace with PRC,

but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.

But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too.

The US pilots trained against the former E. German AF MiG-29s for a reason.

In other news, riding on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” wave, France’s Dassault Aviation has shown its eagerness to make Rafale fighter jets in India , provided the volume is high enough.
The Diplomatic Advisor to the French President, Emmanuel Bonne, who is in India, has come with an offer from the French government to make at least 100 Rafale fighters in India, ThePrint reported.
If they produce them there, why not make a few dozen for the INAF?

GarryB wrote:

-their combined naval forces will match or exceed the IN+other non-regional navies that will deploy there.

Does that mean they get a cookie?-they'll get a piece of the American pie in the sense that PRC will be checkmated in IO & her superior position on land will be somewhat negated by that factor.

-true, unless the straits r blocked.

Blocked with what? Chinese military ships can go the other way around the world to get to the Indian ocean they will not need to hurry to get there... they can sail between New Zealand and Australia if they want and there is no navy on the planet that could stop them, and easily reach Indian Ocean areas...-only in peacetime. The Tasman Sea isn't much wider than the SC Sea, & it'll take a few weeks to go around NZ or S. America. There, they'll face the RN operating out of the Falklands & S. Georgia. So, until Burma, Indonesia & Australia r occupied, China won't control the IO.

India with 5 ex-USN CVNs... how are they going to cope with Yakhont which China has in service and production?- perhaps with lasers?

-even if so, ex-US CVNs will do.

India would be even less able to afford an ex-US CVN of any type let alone one flight of aircraft to operate from them.-they could stop wasting $bs on other things, if need be.

Over the years, the American taxpayers will save $Bs on their operation, deactivation, storing/maintaining, towing & scrapping; each will be worth 3 CVNs based in the States, since they'll be parts of a new "US deputy" toolbox.

..Obvious good points for the US, but how is dumping expensive crap of a type they have no experience with,..-ship's & aircrews can be trained ahead of time just like they were in Russia to operate the ex-Gorshkov TAKR. If the PLAN sailors & pilots could learn to handle the CV-16 with no outside help, the IN sailors & pilots can learn to operate American CV/Ns, & they'll be helped.

-if they were, the Israelis, Arabs & W. Europeans & Taiwan would stick with only French planes instead.

Bitches take what they are given and do as they are told.-not all of them: the Danes used J-35s.

I don't doubt the Indians know that, but play their own game- even if it means overpaying; if they don't, they'll get nothing & be on their own with China.

Funny they can be on their own with China for thousands of years and only now need to be Americas bitch because only America can save them...- no, they were separated by Tibet & had no direct contacts, except during the Ming era sea voyages & via a few Buddhist monks, until the 19th century via the British.

-no, I do want them to make war & keep peace with PRC,

And the best way for India to do that is step out of BRICS and into an unholy alliance of killers led by the US who want to break China.-India will stay in BRICS just like Turkey is staying in NATO. That chair may be useful to keep & sometimes sit on.

but again, we don't live in a perfect world where humanism & philanthropy rules. Otherwise, the proverbial free cheese wouldn't be only in a mousetrap, & there would be no wars.

Considering it thinks it is the leading democracy on the planet the US sure does a lot to make the world a much worse place.
Use India to hurt Russia (by demanding they stop buying Russian stuff) and to start a war with China (presumably to stunt the growth of both countries and create opportunities to make money in the wreckage of both countries...- I doubt they want an all-out war with China, just help India contain her & keep the conflict local.

But treachery is practiced by the Chinese too.

You should like them... they clearly collaborated with the democrats and got Trump kicked out of office illegally.-the electoral vote system is out of date, but regardless, I didn't vote for him (as most of Arizona, a former Republican stronghold!) & I don't need to hear to some white pro-Trump guys rants like those in our far-right Aristide posts. Now it's between them, the cops & the FBI.

That is for the Indian Air Force... they would pay a lot more for naval versions because they would need to pay for the Catapult technology...

-they'll get a piece of the American pie in the sense that PRC will be checkmated in IO & her superior position on land will be somewhat negated by that factor.

-only in peacetime

The Tasman Sea isn't much wider than the SC Sea, & it'll take a few weeks to go around NZ or S. America.

There, they'll face the RN operating out of the Falklands & S. Georgia. So, until Burma, Indonesia & Australia r occupied, China won't control the IO.

- perhaps with lasers?

-they could stop wasting $bs on other things, if need be.

.-ship's & aircrews can be trained ahead of time just like they were in Russia to operate the ex-Gorshkov TAKR. If the PLAN sailors & pilots could learn to handle the CV-16 with no outside help, the IN sailors & pilots can learn to operate American CV/Ns, & they'll be helped.

-India will stay in BRICS just like Turkey is staying in NATO. That chair may be useful to keep & sometimes sit on.

- I doubt they want an all-out war with China, just help India contain her & keep the conflict local.

I don't need to hear to some white pro-Trump guys rants like those in our far-right Aristide posts.

they'll save on commonality between their AF & naval aircraft, so it may be well worth it.