Talking bollocks thread #2

I don't get it... There are no problems with Russian IQs, as I said numerous times: they are high, 97 (which in itself is of course not 100% exact) means that it's around 100. There are no limitations there. No need to get triggered over that.

Karlin has been countering those it's "cultural" and "nazi" counter-arguments extensively: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/through-a-glass-ceiling-darkly-racial-iq-disparities-and-the-wealth-of-nations/

It's obvious that human capital ("IQ") is hereditary. There are genetic differences between races/ethnicities, that is not an exception. Of course, this is about average IQs, it doesn't mean that there are no very intelligent Sub-Saharan Africans or that people in very poor countries don't suffer from many enviromental and cultural limitations. Just compare African scores to black Americans, but the obvious difference remains. And no, "culture" and "discrimination" doesn't explain it. Karlin has written a lot about the subject and that is off-topic anyway because Russian IQs are actually high.

Do I have a particular narrative? Do I - once again - want those Russian limitations to be true? No. Karlin is the same, really. The way I see it, the article is actually nuanced, not all negative at all. But it seems that most people only believe what they want to believe. Sad. But expected. All those ad hominem arguments, panning the sources as somehow mostly fake in regards to Russia... those criticisms are not convincing to say the least. Sure, I can - happily - concede they are valid to some limited extent, that's fine, but the big picture is still quite clear. That's what Karlin's post is all about, and that's what matters in the end.

Kimppis wrote:I don't get it... There are no problems with Russian IQs, as I said numerous times: they are high, 97 (which in itself is of course not 100% exact) means that it's around 100. There are no limitations there. No need to get triggered over that.

Karlin has been countering those it's "cultural" and "nazi" counter-arguments extensively:
.

A blogger who never even tried to do any  PhD in sociology/psychology or Data Science, using some magic formulas and the Sun like drawings doesnt sound legit to me. He quotes no exact scientific sources, he explains no info of data nor method how he calculated his results.

In short blogs which can go to funnies column in an american newspaper.   Let me give you a simple example: International Olympiad in Informatics. All Time Medal Table below.
This is a proof that there's a strong correlation between educational system and cognitive abilites development and not mystique IQ .

Anyway in case Russian is better then USA. And Slovaks (5mln) than Asians from Japan (125mln) . Poland (38mls) is better than ANY of Asian countriy (with higher IQ ) besides China.
Do you know why? simply because East European countries had education in socialist style. Math-physics was very important part of it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Olympiad_in_Informatics.

as of 2017

Rank Nation Gold Silver Bronze Total
1 China China 77 26 12 115
2 Russia Russia 56 36 12 104
3 United States USA 46 34 15 95
4 Poland Poland 38 38 29 105
5 South Korea South Korea 36 37 26 99
6 Romania Romania 30 45 28 103
7 Bulgaria Bulgaria 25 41 34 100
8 Slovakia Slovakia 24 37 29 90
9 Iran Iran 22 52 22 96
10 Japan Japan 21 20 8 49
Total 375 366 215 956

Let's stop about this blogger and focus on more interesting stuff, shall we?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:A blogger who never even tried to do any  PhD in sociology/psychology or Data Science, using some magic formulas and the Sun like drawings doesnt sound legit to me. He quotes no exact scientific sources, he explains no info of data nor method how he calculated his results.

In short blogs which can go to funnies column in an american newspaper.   Let me give you a simple example: International Olympiad in Informatics. All Time Medal Table below.
This is a proof that there's a strong correlation between educational system and cognitive abilites development and not mystique IQ .

Anyway in case Russian is better then USA. And Slovaks (5mln) than Asians from Japan (125mln) . Poland (38mls) is better than ANY of Asian countriy (with higher IQ  ) besides China.
Do you know why? simply because East European countries had education in socialist style. Math-physics was very important part of it.

His views are not unique at all, AFAIK all the other people who have studied the subject have come to very similar conclusions.

Those Olympiad results seem to support his conclusions as well, btw. And it's just one metric. Not to mention that in order to have a good education system, that brings results, a country needs a population with high potential.    

I don't know what is your point anyway. That intelligence is not hereditary, that it's not genetic at all? That on average Sub-Saharan Africans are intellectually as capable as say, Chinese? That is obviously not true. And I said earlier: how is that relevant, when where are talking about Russian technological capabilities? Russians have no limitations in human capital. Let's move on.

The issue is the Russian weakness in certain important sectors. If Russia does well in some "International Olympiad in Informatics", which is well known and of course a good thing, it still doesn't make those problems go away. It's irrelevant what you people think about Karlin as a person, his views on human biodiversity, or his supposed lack of PhD, he didn't make up those statistics.

But yes, I think we should move on...

Kimppis wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:A blogger who never even tried to do any  PhD in sociology/psychology or Data Science, using some magic formulas and the Sun like drawings doesnt sound legit to me. He quotes no exact scientific sources, he explains no info of data nor method how he calculated his results.

In short blogs which can go to funnies column in an american newspaper.   Let me give you a simple example: International Olympiad in Informatics. All Time Medal Table below.
This is a proof that there's a strong correlation between educational system and cognitive abilites development and not mystique IQ .

Anyway in case Russian is better then USA. And Slovaks (5mln) than Asians from Japan (125mln) . Poland (38mls) is better than ANY of Asian countriy (with higher IQ  ) besides China.
Do you know why? simply because East European countries had education in socialist style. Math-physics was very important part of it.

His views are not unique at all, AFAIK all the other people who have studied the subject have come to very similar conclusions.

Those Olympiad results seem to support his conclusions as well, btw. And it's just one metric. Not to mention that in order to have a good education system, that brings results, a country needs a population with high potential.    

I don't know what is your point anyway. That intelligence is not hereditary, that it's not genetic at all? That on average Sub-Saharan Africans are intellectually as capable as say, Chinese? That is obviously not true. And I said earlier: how is that relevant, when where are talking about Russian technological capabilities? Russians have no limitations in human capital. Let's move on.

The issue is the Russian weakness in certain important sectors. If Russia does well in some "International Olympiad in Informatics", which is well known and of course a good thing, it still doesn't make those problems go away. It's irrelevant what you people think about Karlin as a person, his views on human biodiversity, or his supposed lack of PhD, he didn't make up those statistics.

But yes, I think we should move on...

I have never seen before a most stupidest post in this forum, why on Earth you keep going on and on classifying people's IQs based on their ethnicity or the regions where they come from....

Nice virtue signalling. Not politically correct enough? Triggered?

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-elixir-of-growth/

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/not-sending-their-best/

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/through-a-glass-ceiling-darkly-racial-iq-disparities-and-the-wealth-of-nations/

Intelligence is to large extent hereditary, due to genes -> different ethnic groups have different average IQs/human capital/whatever term you want to use, that's not important. Different ethnic groups have considerable genetic differences. "Intelligence" (or again: whatever term you want to use, human capital sounds more politically correct) can not be an exception.  

Why did South Korea and China develop so quickly? In the 60s Ghana, China and SK were equally poor, but look at them now. B-b-b-but hey, muh colonialism, amirite? How is North Korea developing nukes and ICBMs? "There are racial/ethnic differences in average IQ that cannot be explained merely by reference to socio-economic or cultural factors."

It must also be noted that whereas most of these tests indicate that Asians closed gaps (in reading, writing) and overtook whites (in math) over the years, there has been no sign of any significant convergence for blacks.

Is it because schools in poorer areas (inner city, where NAM’s cluster) are badly funded? No, per student funding tends to be broadly similar for both inner city and suburban schools. Besides, education funding doesn’t play a major role in results. In Italy, there is no correlation between school funding and performance by province. China gets PISA and IQ results higher than America’s despite spending a tiny fraction of the resources that the US lavishes on each of its pupils. Indeed, it probably doesn’t matter much, as IQ tends to be fixed by the age of the 5.

Is it because blacks come from poorer families on average? IQ is a far more persuasive explanation for why people are poor in the first place. Refer to The Bell Curve (Murray & Herrnstein).

US blacks (85-90) get far better IQ scores than Africans (65-80). These two facts are highly important because in Africa, the IQ’s of many populations are currently constrained by poor nutrition and (in some cases) the different psychologies of pre-industrial and illiterate peoples. In practice, and discounting variation (Africa is the world’s most genetically diverse continent, so it is not impossible that there will be some relatively high-IQ subgroups among them), it seems likely that the average IQ ceiling for African blacks is similar to the actual IQ’s of US blacks. I.e., maybe 85 (lower than 85-90, because US blacks have 20% admixture with whites).

All of that is obvious, if actually think about it for a moment. We all want to believe that everyone's equal, but that is not how it works. The world isn't fair.

And in the case you didn't notice: this is about averages, it doesn't mean that there are no bright Ghan...ians?

Can we please move on from this? It's off-topic... I don't think I started this? Russia human capital is high, so I don't know why it was even mentioned after my original post. I had to reply again because that was a borderline personal insult.

Funnily enough as well, all of that is openly acknowledged in places like Japan, Korea, China and Singapore, but not in today's West that is obviously going to shit. (Importing masses of third-worlders is going to be a huge negative for Western Europe especially in the coming decades, I can promise you that. For both cultural and human capital reasons.) That is how crazy and stupid I am. It's not like those theories explain the world and the development of different countries and regions extremely well or anything.

Kimppis wrote:Nice virtue signalling. Not politically correct enough? Triggered?

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-elixir-of-growth/

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/not-sending-their-best/

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/through-a-glass-ceiling-darkly-racial-iq-disparities-and-the-wealth-of-nations/

Intelligence is to large extent hereditary, due to genes -> different ethnic groups have different average IQs/human capital/whatever term you want to use, that's not important. Different ethnic groups have considerable genetic differences. "Intelligence" (or again: whatever term you want to use, human capital sounds more politically correct) can not be an exception.  

Why did South Korea and China develop so quickly? In the 60s Ghana, China and SK were equally poor, but look at them now. B-b-b-but hey, muh colonialism, amirite? How is North Korea developing nukes and ICBMs? "There are racial/ethnic differences in average IQ that cannot be explained merely by reference to socio-economic or cultural factors."

It must also be noted that whereas most of these tests indicate that Asians closed gaps (in reading, writing) and overtook whites (in math) over the years, there has been no sign of any significant convergence for blacks.

Is it because schools in poorer areas (inner city, where NAM’s cluster) are badly funded? No, per student funding tends to be broadly similar for both inner city and suburban schools. Besides, education funding doesn’t play a major role in results. In Italy, there is no correlation between school funding and performance by province. China gets PISA and IQ results higher than America’s despite spending a tiny fraction of the resources that the US lavishes on each of its pupils. Indeed, it probably doesn’t matter much, as IQ tends to be fixed by the age of the 5.

Is it because blacks come from poorer families on average? IQ is a far more persuasive explanation for why people are poor in the first place. Refer to The Bell Curve (Murray & Herrnstein).

US blacks (85-90) get far better IQ scores than Africans (65-80). These two facts are highly important because in Africa, the IQ’s of many populations are currently constrained by poor nutrition and (in some cases) the different psychologies of pre-industrial and illiterate peoples. In practice, and discounting variation (Africa is the world’s most genetically diverse continent, so it is not impossible that there will be some relatively high-IQ subgroups among them), it seems likely that the average IQ ceiling for African blacks is similar to the actual IQ’s of US blacks. I.e., maybe 85 (lower than 85-90, because US blacks have 20% admixture with whites).

All of that is obvious, if actually think about it for a moment. We all want to believe that everyone's equal, but that is not how it works. The world isn't fair.

And in the case you didn't notice: this is about averages, it doesn't mean that there are no bright Ghan...ians?

Can we please move on from this? It's off-topic... I don't think I started this? Russia human capital is high, so I don't know why it was even mentioned after my original post. I had to reply again because that was a borderline personal insult.

Funnily enough as well, all of that is openly acknowledged in places like Japan, Korea, China and Singapore, but not in today's West that is obviously going to shit. (Importing masses of third-worlders is going to be a huge negative for Western Europe especially in the coming decades, I can promise you that. For both cultural and human capital reasons.) That is how crazy and stupid I am. It's not like those theories explain the world and the development of different countries and regions extremely well or anything.

Oh my word, Genes!
I remember Hitler and his fantasy crew used similar analysis in the past.
This is so ridiculous to acknowledge such flawed, so called genetic analysis, so according to your scientific articles among the Chinese/Koreans genes, the Russians genes and the Western ones which genes are closer to the dark people genes and why are the Chinese/Japan are considered much more intelligent?

I propose that Mod to clean this mess of the thread immediately, it has gone to far this time

Oh wow, now you come up with the nazi card? That's... amazing, congrats.

Right now, one of the most recent posts in this "Russia" section complains about the global Jewish conspiracy. That's some actual nonsense. Maybe you should go there and criticize the poster? No, seriously, I think we can agree on that.  

Not only were Nazi genocidal plans obviously crazy, their racial beliefs were also scientifically and factually wrong. Jews are obviously intelligent, and so are Slavs Although I guess even the nazis conceded that atleast the jews were actually intelligent, but no, I don't think there are actual untermenschen, that's not what those theories, or rather the harsh reality, means.

But that is a logical fallacy if I've ever seen one. Because nazis -> intelligence is not hereditary now? You do realize how ridiculous that argument is? But I know that's really common in the West and a major reason for political correctness. Sad. Thanks Adolf.    

And as I've said numerous times: none of that means that all whites or East Asians have higher human capital than all Sub-Saharan Africans. That is also different from the nazis, and different from actual racism. It's all about averages, which in the big picture make a considerable difference, no on a individual level.

However, I do I agree that this is starting to remind me of the "Talking Bullocks" thread. IMO, as long as this doesn't continue after this post, it's fine.

We can agree to disagree, that's all.

Kimppis wrote:Oh wow, now you come up with the nazi card? That's... amazing, congrats.

Right now, one of the most recent posts in this "Russia" section complains about the global Jewish conspiracy. That's some actual nonsense. Maybe you should go there and criticize the poster? No, seriously, I think we can agree on that.  

Not only were Nazi genocidal plans obviously crazy, their racial beliefs were also scientifically and factually wrong. Jews are obviously intelligent, and so are Slavs Although I guess even the nazis conceded that atleast the jews were actually intelligent, but no, I don't think there are actual untermenschen, that's not what those theories, or rather the harsh reality, means.

But that is a logical fallacy if I've ever seen one. Because nazis -> intelligence is not hereditary now? You do realize how ridiculous that argument is? But I know that's really common in the West and a major reason for political correctness. Sad. Thanks Adolf.    

And as I've said numerous times: none of that means that all whites or East Asians have higher human capital than all Sub-Saharan Africans. That is also different from the nazis, and different from actual racism. It's all about averages, which in the big picture make a considerable difference, no on a individual level.

However, I do I agree that this is starting to remind me of the "Talking Bullocks" thread. IMO, as long as this doesn't continue after this post, it's fine.

We can agree to disagree, that's all.

I have no time for this nonsense, Mods will have to do their job.

The below reply was for Kimpis, but I think after writing it that everyone who questions why this IQ stuff is here should read it too.

It is not censorship... I did not delete the crap you were polluting that thread with, I merely moved it to a more appropriate thread... a talking bollocks thread.

And for your information I have never taken an IQ test as far as I am aware... certainly not a national one for the census, so any average IQ value for New Zealand dos not include me or anyone I know... what do you expect to learn from such a useless value as average IQ?

If you know anything about maths and statistics you will know all that does is create a middle average value... in a group of 140 million you might have 100 Steven Hawkings's, but your average is still low because the sample taken to generate the average IQ for the country was in an old mining town where the water is full of heavy metals because they fucking work for a living... unlike you rich cunts in Europe whose poor are so much better and more sophisticated than the richest Russian.

Yes that one fucking frog pisses me off.

But I don't like ass holes suggesting you can describe a whole fucking country with one number or one value... whether it is an IQ average or a colour of skin or a religion... or for that matter a PPP or GDP or anything ending in P.

Either way I did not delete what you put... I merely moved it away from any sensible discussion.

Don't try to continue that discussion anywhere else.

Regards
GarryB

Note this message is going to be repeated in full in the talking bollocks thread so everyone knows where I stand and where they stand with me.

That's not how those tests works and they take those issues into account as much as possible. And AFAIK, they are usually not actual "IQ tests", but for instance PISA test scores.

Also, as I've said many times: Russia actually has high average "IQs", very much comparable to "us rich cunts."

Now I do actually agree that the whole "IQ" discussion was mostly off-topic and it really didn't belong there, but I have one problem: the Russian technology article itself. IMHO, it should still be allowed to be there, because it's a very good summary and it has actually next to nothing to do with "IQ", the whole term is mentioned like once. The way he also mentions it there is admittedly weird and misleading, if you haven't read his other articles, because overall Karlin actually considers Russian human capital to be high. And that's actually what around "97" really means -> around 100 -> high.

Lastly, I was also wondering if this is normal? To completely delete a large number of posts, even temporarily? I honestly don't know, but I think those "IQ" posts were gone for hours, right? Or maybe I just didn't notice it, but they were added to this thread only later. Now I do understand that it probably takes time to move them, the process doesn't seem to be "automatic", but I really thought that my posts were permanently deleted, for censorship reasons.

That's not how those tests works and they take those issues into account as much as possible. And AFAIK, they are usually not actual "IQ tests", but for instance PISA test scores.

So is this a Russian test or a western test... because most western tests seem to be weighted and flawed in every parameter to show the west in the best light as far as I can see...

Also, as I've said many times: Russia actually has high average "IQs", very much comparable to "us rich cunts."

So it is OK if it suggest black people are dumb as long as it also says the men have big cocks... I know most men I know would prefer a bigger dick over being smarter because often being smarter is over rated.

It does not matter what the results are... or are you suggesting the results justify the means... ie the west became rich because it was right and good... and those poor under developed savages in Africa and south America are wrong until they adopt western ways and become right...

And if you read what I said, it was mostly in response to that French twerk, but I must say it is a common theme on the internet... talk to a country "occupied" by the Soviets... even briefly and we hear about the terrible oppression, and queues for everything and the poverty, but you ask about what life was like in Russia and it invariably was much much worse... it seems the Russians were bad but they allowed their prisoners to live better than their own families did... they could easily have made it much worse for the people who claim to be the victim and much better for themselves... they didn't but they are still the bad guys... not the victim of western aggression... they did it because they were bad... but they didn't do it a bad way... just because.

If I offended you, then I apologise, I didn't mean you personally, but Europe in general.


Regarding the article... copy and paste it into the technology thread, but please make sure any bullshit about IQ is removed.

Lastly, I was also wondering if this is normal? To completely delete a large number of posts, even temporarily? I honestly don't know, but I think those "IQ" posts were gone for hours, right? Or maybe I just didn't notice it, but they were added to this thread only later. Now I do understand that it probably takes time to move them, the process doesn't seem to be "automatic", but I really thought that my posts were permanently deleted, for censorship reasons.

Yes... that is normal... sometimes an off topic discussion starts on a thread but is not that big a deal so it gets left... most of them don't last very long and end so there is no real point in removing them. Sometimes however it turns into a long often heated discussion... well lets be honest... usually a round and round argument which has little in the way of detail and more a tit for tat you are wrong argument... it often becomes pretty obvious that it is overwhelming the original thread discussion and needs to be removed... which involves a mod clicking on a button to split the thread in two and having to manually go through the entire thread in one big long continuous page and select the posts that should be moved... with very long threads with lots of photos that became a very long task... made worse because if you didn't select the split thread button in time it timed out and you had to do it again. Having split the posts I then have to merge it with another thread or if it is a useful thread that is a subject on its own it can be merged with a relevant thread or made its own topic... most are merged with the talking bollocks thread however.

Biggest problem for Russian science is not russian IQ, but rather bad financial climate. All post-soviet countries experienced brain drain and had same exact problems as Russia due Soviet union dissolution and scientific community collapse. In Soviet times being scientist was an honor, but in post soviet world scientists were seen as weirdos that had no money.
Also, Russian average IQ is lowered by less developed regions both in south and east. Russian IQ should be close to Asian or top European which only shows that it's not a deciding factor for scientific progress.

GarryB wrote:

That's not how those tests works and they take those issues into account as much as possible. And AFAIK, they are usually not actual "IQ tests", but for instance PISA test scores.

So is this a Russian test or a western test... because most western tests seem to be weighted and flawed in every parameter to show the west in the best light as far as I can see...

Also, as I've said many times: Russia actually has high average "IQs", very much comparable to "us rich cunts."

So it is OK if it suggest black people are dumb as long as it also says the men have big cocks... I know most men I know would prefer a bigger dick over being smarter because often being smarter is over rated.

It does not matter what the results are... or are you suggesting the results justify the means... ie the west became rich because it was right and good... and those poor under developed savages in Africa and south America are wrong until they adopt western ways and become right...

And if you read what I said, it was mostly in response to that French twerk, but I must say it is a common theme on the internet... talk to a country "occupied" by the Soviets... even briefly and we hear about the terrible oppression, and queues for everything and the poverty, but you ask about what life was like in Russia and it invariably was much much worse... it seems the Russians were bad but they allowed their prisoners to live better than their own families did... they could easily have made it much worse for the people who claim to be the victim and much better for themselves... they didn't but they are still the bad guys... not the victim of western aggression... they did it because they were bad... but they didn't do it a bad way... just because.

If I offended you, then I apologise, I didn't mean you personally, but Europe in general.


Regarding the article... copy and paste it into the technology thread, but please make sure any bullshit about IQ is removed.

Lastly, I was also wondering if this is normal? To completely delete a large number of posts, even temporarily? I honestly don't know, but I think those "IQ" posts were gone for hours, right? Or maybe I just didn't notice it, but they were added to this thread only later. Now I do understand that it probably takes time to move them, the process doesn't seem to be "automatic", but I really thought that my posts were permanently deleted, for censorship reasons.

Yes... that is normal... sometimes an off topic discussion starts on a thread but is not that big a deal so it gets left... most of them don't last very long and end so there is no real point in removing them. Sometimes however it turns into a long often heated discussion... well lets be honest... usually a round and round argument which has little in the way of detail and more a tit for tat you are wrong argument... it often becomes pretty obvious that it is overwhelming the original thread discussion and needs to be removed... which involves a mod clicking on a button to split the thread in two and having to manually go through the entire thread in one big long continuous page and select the posts that should be moved... with very long threads with lots of photos that became a very long task... made worse because if you didn't select the split thread button in time it timed out and you had to do it again. Having split the posts I then have to merge it with another thread or if it is a useful thread that is a subject on its own it can be merged with a relevant thread or made its own topic... most are merged with the talking bollocks thread however.

It's not only Western Europeans that get high scores, that includes Eastern Europeans and East Asians as well, and most importantly that includes China, which is a one-party state, in many ways is very non-Western and still developing. Singapore is very "Asian", authoritarian as well and so are arguably Japan and SK. I wouldn't use the term "dumber", it's really offensive, but yes, they have inferior human capital on average. Obviously in many places that is also partially due to environmental reasons, nutrition etc, but that really doesn't work as an excuse in places like the US, where the difference is certainly smaller than vs. "Africans", but the difference is still clear. And it's not like I like it to be true... Also, Africa is actually developing quite well at the moment and they will probably catch up to an extent (the difference is not THAT big), but it's very doubtful whether they'll able to fully converge (atleast for a very long time, if ever), like South Korea did or what China is achieving at the moment.

So I can post my summary of the technology article, edit it a little by removing the one or two parts where "IQ" is mentioned? Can I still post a link to the article? It does mention IQ a few times, but that's it and I don't think Karlin mentions anything about Africans etc. in it.

Yes, if anyone wants to read the full article providing a link is a good idea... if they want to go that way then I don't care.

The so called brain drain happens everywhere... NZ politicians were constantly bleating about how all our best and brightest were leaving New Zealand and going to bigger and richer Australia for the better climate and more money.

Amusingly enough of course it wasn't just the smart professionals making the move... I remember in the mid 1980s a local politician Sir Robert Muldoon said to the Aussies that migration of New Zealanders to Australia was a good thing because it generally increased the IQ average of both countries... took em a while to work out the insult...

Why Russia experience so many accidents?

https://www.rt.com/news/422289-children-missing-kemerovo-mall-blaze/

37 dead and dozen of children missing..

Reports that no fire alarms worked..
And why im not surprised at all?  I have been saying that Russia have the worse
quality controls of any nation in the planet ,among the developed world..

No fire alarms working and no water showers protection either..why im not surprised?  

Usually in the evil west you have a very rigid codes of regulation for fire.. you cannot have a business anywhere
not even a cafeteria without having equipment to contain a fire..  This fire spread
through the entire mall and was not contained .and apparently not many firefighters either came to the rescue..
 This is Russia being Russia. More of the same stupid Bullshit ,I have yet to see a fire in a mall in Europe or a fire in a mall in America anywhere in the news caused by human error or a short circuit.. in many years.. with civilians killed. But not worries , Putin will prepare a list of condolences and move forward.

This happened when the mall was open ,and with cameras fully monitoring all , but the emergency staff failed
big time to stop spreading the fire.

Because of incompetence and poor attitude towards general safety.

Russians are not very communal people. They care about themselves and their family, but that's about it. They don't care about the community they live in. And they are not patriotic like the Western people are patriotic.

This is why we see all these horrible accidents happen regularly in Russia. Russian psyche should be changed for things to change.

Nothing was learnt from the Perm nightclub fire that killed more than 150 people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_Horse_fire

And nothing will be learnt from this.

Expect more tragedies to occur in Russia.

Sorry, but wasn't there a fire recently in the UK in a block of flats that killed a lot of people too?

Grenfell Tower fire killed 71 people... families, women and children... hardly the first fire in the UK and certainly wont be the last... so nothing learned from that fire and nothing will be learned from this fire either... fires happen.

Expect more tragedies to occur in the UK because UK officials think it is more valuable to spend enormous amounts of money sitting outside the Equador emassy watching Julian Assange, or having a tent circus trying to pin attacks on Putin...

Of course in their defence rich British people don't live in those sort of flats...

kvs wrote:You can thank Yeltsin and his NATO backers for this.   During the 1990s and later the wild capitalist culture saw brazen disregard
for building codes and public safety.   Even it this POS factory makeover was done under Putin's watch, it was not Putin who
brought the wild capitalist western culture to Russia.  

As in all other countries, action happens when enough people die.   So now they are going to investigate all these trade center
hacks.   For example it is typical to cram the theaters and rinks on the top floor, which is the most difficult to evacuate.   This
is clearly BS due to recycling of an existing building.   The most rational location for all these high occupancy facilities is on
the first floor and have the other stores on the upper floors.  Also, the fire alarms were grossly inadequate and most people
did not hear them at all even when the building was in full fire mode.   There were also no sprinklers as far as I can tell.

This thread is also a troll thread.   Considering that the building was filled with hundreds of people and its gross lack of safety,
the death toll is quite small.   (I know one is too many, but if we are going to start threads condemning the whole country...).

This you saw the report?
-Fire Alarms not working
-No water sprays to stop the fire
-Very few fight fighters in the scene.. i have seen much smaller fires in buildings before
 and you get 30 or 50 Fire Trucks in no time.. Apparently by looking at the photos ..they had
just a couple of fire trucks there..
-emergency staff not doing their job... There have to be security staff trained to contain a fire.
 so they don't have to wait for Firefighters to arrive on the scene..

It was sad to see people jumping from higher floors on the ground...  People complain there was no one
telling them there was a fire ... so what is this if NOT INCOMPETENCE ?????

All this Moronic Incompetence is consequence of the Mediocre Government in Russia. That fails at Surpervision
and at demanding strict protocols in construction , not only for fire but also earthquakes too.. Here in the west
even a Bakery , in any place you go , where you buy donuts , you will see Equipment to extinquish fire.. The regulations to prevent fires are very Rigid.. If you have a business ,every year a Firefighter will visit you to inspect
the electrical grid of your building ,air conditioners and if your business is prepared to deal with fire accidents.

Did i mention none of The Fire alarms worked in the mall ? Who is to blame for this..?
For sure is the Government ,that did not have supervision of the security .Fire alarms at very least will have made people abandon the building at soon the fire began.. and Shower spray will have even stopped the fire or significantly contain it.. but in Russia any thing is possible...  

Russia need a major Reform in Construction security and quality controls.. and buildings monitored every year by
Professionals in prevention of fire and accidents. this is how it is in the west. In Russia it looks that is government by
monkeys..  Not long ago more than 100 soldiers killed while sleeping in their barracks..   Only in RUssia
is possible that.. in the 21 century still Russia struggles to supervise the most basic stuff in construction. the most basic safety rules and all this is consequences of very disorganized Government and leadership. with poor quality controls ,poor supervision..

When you have poor performance of people in their jobs ,is always consequence of the chain of command above them.
Is a leadership issue. Leaders biggest role are to motivate people ,to do what you want , to encourage others to do their Best. When you have mediocre Leaders ,you will have mediocre chain of command ,poor supervision and workers that don't care a shit of their jobs ,even if they work in security or prevention of accidents and the only thing they care is their paycheks and to wait for what they will do ,when return to their homes.  Russia needs a major reform in security and quality controls , but also in management . And not only in civilian sector but also in the military too..

The Government will have to take control of security of all major private business ,where many public attend ,
there have to be a Private security but also a federal one too.. Because could have been a shooting attack by terrorist
and the results will have been the same.. nobody will came to the rescue of people on time.

is my theory that this is more like a Culture Thing..Russians got from Soviet Times. A Bad habit.. a Bad Culture of being careless for the quality controls of anything ,and average people in non high paid jobs ,not motivated to be better at their jobs..

The "1990's excuse" is no longer valid since it is almost two full decades since 1990's.

What, is Russia going to blame the "1990's" for the next 100 years for all its problems?

Hahahahahaha... So how can the UK blame the 1990s?

There were no fire alarms and no sprinkler systems in Grenfell Tower... when someone noticed smoke people went knocking from door to door to alert people to the danger.

There was only one stairwell to enter or exit the building... if you wanted to build a better fire trap there weren't many options to make it more lethal.

The gas and wiring were all substandard... they had recently upgraded the cladding to make it look better, but they chose the cheaper non fire retardant material to save money... that is what capitalism is all about... save a few bucks and cut corners... just like with this mall in Russia... instead of criticising them you should be congratulating them... they got as bad as the UK so quickly... but then it is so easy when you are western minded and just think about the money.

Ah, the usual suspects with their overreactions...

That Grenfell Tower fire killed 71 people is a great analogy. Now imagine all of the Western reactions if that had happened in Russia?  

For one, Russia has a population of almost 150 million.

The situation has massively improved compared to even 10 years ago, statistically, that's the big picture.

Although I do think that Haushofer's:

Because of incompetence and poor attitude towards general safety.

Russians are not very communal people. They care about themselves and their family, but that's about it. They don't care about the community they live in.

+ the 90s are all valid points as well, compared to some other countries. But AFAIK, things have really gotten much better and the trend continues.

Karl Haushofer wrote:The "1990's excuse" is no longer valid since it is almost two full decades since 1990's.

What, is Russia going to blame the "1990's" for the next 100 years for all its problems?

No, but for the next 10-15 years it's still going to be a valid excuse, to an extent ofc. (I'm quite serious.)

Kimppis wrote:
That Grenfell Tower fire killed 71 people is a great analogy. Now imagine all of the Western reactions if that had happened in Russia?  

Those who killed in Grenfell Tower were all Muslim immigrants. Those who killed in Kemerovo were mainly ethnic Russian children.

And accident that could have been avoided if there was any competent people ... in charge..

https://www.rt.com/news/422351-inside-footage-kemerovo-fire/



That building did not meet the most minimum requirements of fire prevention that you will
find in any western shooping center . Fire alarms not working , no water protections and no
security staff to contain the fire until firefighters arrive.,people complaining that they did not knew there
was even a fire and no alarm.

But no problem.. Putin will write another list of condolences to their families..
If in Latin America anything like this happen.. There will be demands for the President of the country to RESIGN.. there is no tolerance for incompetence in the west.  Look at the Paraguay President ,was sacked from power only because
a failed police operation that cost the lives of a dozen of police.

Leaders of nations are responsible for choosing competent people to do their jobs correctly.
Any proper inspection of fire prevention on that building will have shown ,it was not prepared
the building to deal with fire..and the building will have been demanded to close until is prepared to deal
with Fire accidents. but in Russia things are done in a very different way.. is chaotic to say the least .
specially their quality controls and supervision..

when it comes to britain.. well Britain no longer is a civilized nation.. is a jungle of middle east.
And politics there no longer reasonable.. Britain today is like Russia of the 90s , in terms of politics.
and eventually will become the middle east of europe. in not far future.

but go find me a fire in a major shopping mall in United States caused by an accident ,electrical problem ,
that killed a hundred of people? im not aware of Any fire of such dimensions in many decades.. or even lower ones.. not related to Nature.

Is safety controls policies and quality controls in Russia are not taken very seriously in Russia.
And this is why Russian videos are very popular in youtube... There are titles of Crazy Russians.. and this
is not by coincidence.. you see Russians are very crazy aptitude of the Society of being careless about safety ,and this is all motivated by their own Government..failure at promoting security and having consistent supervision of their infrastructure and buildings.