Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

I dont see what is "embarrasing" there , Helicopter was damaged and crew rescue. In wars it happens that your helicopters sooner or later are going to be targeted by sneaking terrorist.
NATO have even lost up to 2 apaches helicopters in IRAQ in the same week ,to enemy fire and few dozens of them during the war. Difference is Russia did not hide their losses and NATO does.
Israel always claim "Technical problems" whenever Hezbolah or Syrian army shot down their F-16 planes. In Vietnam US lost a thousand of helicopters to Vietcong air defenses. .. So is a war zone ,what did you expect? They managed to get the crew alive and the helicopter was taken by down
by regular artillery fire ,no biggie , just terrorist luck of being in the right place at the right time.

Could've been worse, so I would say they had the stars in their favour....but main thing is pilots were saved by a balsy rescue team

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

Yes...it also happened to multiple Chinooks with RPG. Here it looks like an SPG hitting on the Mil, clearly not a good spot but lucky there was no ATGM at hand.

In any case the helicopter once it made an emergency landing was a lame duck. It would have required AFV's to set a perimetre.

KiloGolf wrote:

Maybe some more work on their CSAR skills is needed. Both vehicles and Mi-8 were just too close for comfort.
They don't seem to be aware that the enemy can hit them, as they did.

Also IS managed to reach the wreckage and take some victory shots.



ouch

CSAR has no fault there, landing zone was hot and I think they were actively trying to get the Crocodile to fly again, big No No AFAIC. Shot taken by SPG not mortar, luckily not ATGM.

Edit: Shot taken by ATGM. Extra lucky.

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

It happend more than once, it happened so many times it probably exceeds number of 100.

Militarov wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

It happend more than once, it happened so many times it probably exceeds number of 100.

They even made a movie about it...



well ok more than one.

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

Nothing embarrassing here. No lives were lost and that's the main thing. You LIVE and LEARN.
They were clearly unaware that landing zone was hot.
Also they were lucky that it wasn't Mi-8 that was shot down. Bit weird that Mi-8 pilot hugged the ground and didn't take off. Probably thought that enemy has MANPAD.

Regular wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

Nothing embarrassing here. No lives were lost and that's the main thing. You LIVE and LEARN.
They were clearly unaware that landing zone was hot.
Also they were lucky that it wasn't Mi-8 that was shot down. Bit weird that Mi-8 pilot hugged the ground and didn't take off. Probably thought that enemy has MANPAD.

He tried to hide the rescue team by making smoke with the flares and with the dust on the ground. He did well actually.

Isos wrote:

Regular wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:That is embarrassing as hell, imagine that happening in a NATO army.

Nothing embarrassing here. No lives were lost and that's the main thing. You LIVE and LEARN.
They were clearly unaware that landing zone was hot.
Also they were lucky that it wasn't Mi-8 that was shot down. Bit weird that Mi-8 pilot hugged the ground and didn't take off. Probably thought that enemy has MANPAD.

He tried to hide the rescue team by making smoke with the flares and with the dust on the ground. He did well actually.

Yep. However I suspect he was alerted somehow, because he starts moviong just after the missile is shot (0:07 you can hear a pop). And moves just behind the Crocodile so the ATGM can't hit anything else of value.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Maybe some more work on their CSAR skills is needed. Both vehicles and Mi-8 were just too close for comfort.
They don't seem to be aware that the enemy can hit them, as they did.

Also IS managed to reach the wreckage and take some victory shots.



ouch

CSAR has no fault there, landing zone was hot

It has in the sense they were all too close and exposed to the disabled Hind for no apparent reason.
And loitered the area for some time instead of swiftly GTFO. They need to sharpen them CSAR skills.

PS. Russia would benefit if they'd modified and deployed some An-12s as Spookies.

At around 0:13 a trail can be seen before helicopter explodes
https://twitter.com/sayed_ridha/status/794450043113615360

1080p http://video.jkikki.de/v/il04112016.mp4

Raptors going to Syria:


http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/

PapaDragon wrote:
Raptors going to Syria:


http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/

Looks like Tartous will get some permanently based firepower. Good point to start.

KiloGolf wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Maybe some more work on their CSAR skills is needed. Both vehicles and Mi-8 were just too close for comfort.
They don't seem to be aware that the enemy can hit them, as they did.

Also IS managed to reach the wreckage and take some victory shots.



ouch

CSAR has no fault there, landing zone was hot

It has in the sense they were all too close and exposed to the disabled Hind for no apparent reason.
And loitered the area for some time instead of swiftly GTFO. They need to sharpen them CSAR skills.

PS. Russia would benefit if they'd modified and deployed some An-12s as Spookies.

I just don't understand what you said. The CSAR chopper was there to get the pilots out and check if the mil could be salvaged. That's their job. Given that the ATGM hits from afar the only good decision would have been to have the other Mil Mi 24 recon the perimetre. How are you going to take the pilots if you don't land and grab them?

KoTeMoRe wrote:I just don't understand what you said. The CSAR chopper was there to get the pilots out and check if the mil could be salvaged. That's their job. Given that the ATGM hits from afar the only good decision would have been to have the other Mil Mi 24 recon the perimetre. How are you going to take the pilots if you don't land and grab them?

They seem to have other assets on the ground already, two MRAPs, hence risking a very large CSAR chopper by landing it a few meters away and one that proceeds to pointlessly loiter the area for way too long is careless. Hoping that creating dust thus cover via rotor wake, also clearly doesn't work.

Also they clearly lack any awareness that they're under threat and have no other asset keeping the enemy's head down. They need more Hinds and possibly Spookies in that role. Or this will happen all the time. I'm sure watching this video will be a useful wake-up call for the Russians. It's the second time they get their helos trashed on the ground by ATGM fire.

KiloGolf wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:I just don't understand what you said. The CSAR chopper was there to get the pilots out and check if the mil could be salvaged. That's their job. Given that the ATGM hits from afar the only good decision would have been to have the other Mil Mi 24 recon the perimetre. How are you going to take the pilots if you don't land and grab them?

They seem to have other assets on the ground already, two MRAPs, hence risking a very large CSAR chopper by landing it a few meters away and one that proceeds to pointlessly loiter the area for way too long is careless. Hoping that creating dust thus cover via rotor wake, also clearly doesn't work.

Also they clearly lack any awareness that they're under threat and have no other asset keeping the enemy's head down. They need more Hinds and possibly Spookies in that role. Or this will happen all the time. I'm sure watching this video will be a useful wake-up call for the Russians. It's the second time they get their helos trashed on the ground by ATGM fire.

Once again the idea was and that's the bad part, to actually try and see if the chopper could be salvaged in any meaningful way.

Pointlessly loitering? You don't know the Pilot/WO status when they go down, in the image both bubbles are up meaning the two men have been extracted from the aircraft. But CSAR is there to have them out of dodge in case they're wounded and fast.

The fact ISIS hit them isn't lack of awareness it's how it is done. There are two issues here. Either you have your second asset risk getting hit like the first by trying to set a Low perimetre, either you have it loiter higher checking for incoming. IMO the ATGM being fired has been called from afar, as I don't see how the Mil 8 managed to hear that.

Also French CSAR motto is Anywhere, Anytime. Going into Hot LZ's is their task. We will repeat what we said last time this happened. The US lost 18 uber soldiers.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:I just don't understand what you said. The CSAR chopper was there to get the pilots out and check if the mil could be salvaged. That's their job. Given that the ATGM hits from afar the only good decision would have been to have the other Mil Mi 24 recon the perimetre. How are you going to take the pilots if you don't land and grab them?

They seem to have other assets on the ground already, two MRAPs, hence risking a very large CSAR chopper by landing it a few meters away and one that proceeds to pointlessly loiter the area for way too long is careless. Hoping that creating dust thus cover via rotor wake, also clearly doesn't work.

Also they clearly lack any awareness that they're under threat and have no other asset keeping the enemy's head down. They need more Hinds and possibly Spookies in that role. Or this will happen all the time. I'm sure watching this video will be a useful wake-up call for the Russians. It's the second time they get their helos trashed on the ground by ATGM fire.

Once again the idea was and that's the bad part, to actually try and see if the chopper could be salvaged in any meaningful way.

Pointlessly loitering? You don't know the Pilot/WO status when they go down, in the image both bubbles are up meaning the two men have been extracted from the aircraft. But CSAR is there to have them out of dodge in case they're wounded and fast.

The fact ISIS hit them isn't lack of awareness it's how it is done. There are two issues here. Either you have your second asset risk getting hit like the first by trying to set a Low perimetre, either you have it loiter higher checking for incoming. IMO the ATGM being fired has been called from afar, as I don't see how the Mil 8 managed to hear that.

Also French CSAR motto is Anywhere, Anytime. Going into Hot LZ's is their task. We will repeat what we said last time this happened. The US lost 18 uber soldiers.

For me they need to work on both loitering far too long and keeping all assets extremely close to one another. These are their weak links, hence the near miss disaster. From the IS video it's very realistic to assume no other asset was in the air kept things in check. Thus the easy manner for launching an ATGM and also filming from a different position.

Mistakes happen, Russians can see this video and will rectify them.

Some salt is advised, but this would not be unexpected:

Russian jets launch first airstrikes over west Aleppo

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russian-jets-launch-first-airstrikes-west-aleppo/

Guys I mean the team on the ground had balls, however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up... Then you would have two choppers next to each other, and this time with dead Russians. The next step would have been to hunt those bastards down as revenge. Glad no Russians died, hopefully the RuAF launched one of those revenge operations on the nearest terrorist positions.

Fresh selfie from deck of Big Pete:



Shiver me timbers, that thing looks to be even more ginormus than I imagined. I shudder to think what it would look like up close in real life....

This time the Russian team was so lucky because the enemies hit the alone empty vehicle.

The nature of the rescue was dangerous, it is necessary to remember that the Mi-35 had the landing because some kind of previous hit, then a position on air in the area was also dangerous, and the current weapons have enough range to make difficult to stablish a security ring big enough.

To make it safer in the future it is necessary not only to improve the tactics of the opteration, also it is necessary to change the nature of the rescue team.

however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up...

To make it safer in the future it is necessary not only to improve the tactics of the opteration, also it is necessary to change the nature of the rescue team.

With a range of 3km minimum that is a circle 6km around you need to check for enemies that are rather unlikely to be standing out in the open with ISIS flags...

With a better missile like Kornet-E that is a 12km circle and Kornet-EM that is a 20km circle...

...and they might not be set up with ATGMs it might simply be a GRAD truck positioned 20km away lined up on the general area ready to launch a volley... do you have to scan the area in a 40km wide circle before sending in helos to rescue?

There is no safe range... a Smerch battery 70km away could be given the coordinates of the crash site and launch a volley of rockets with HE frag submunitions...

The key is speed... in and out as fast as you can... a Tu-22M3 with 9 tons of bombs ready to drop on any area that threats might be concealed is also a good thing too.

GarryB wrote:

however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up...

To make it safer in the future it is necessary not only to improve the tactics of the opteration, also it is necessary to change the nature of the rescue team.

With a range of 3km minimum that is a circle 6km around you need to check for enemies that are rather unlikely to be standing out in the open with ISIS flags...

With a better missile like Kornet-E that is a 12km circle and Kornet-EM that is a 20km circle...

...and they might not be set up with ATGMs it might simply be a GRAD truck positioned 20km away lined up on the general area ready to launch a volley... do you have to scan the area in a 40km wide circle before sending in helos to rescue?

There is no safe range... a Smerch battery 70km away could be given the coordinates of the crash site and launch a volley of rockets with HE frag submunitions...

The key is speed... in and out as fast as you can... a Tu-22M3 with 9 tons of bombs ready to drop on any area that threats might be concealed is also a good thing too.

Speed is important yes as well as top cover. 5 km is a radius pair of Hinds and a hypothetical Spooky up in the air could cover or at least detect in a flat desert quite efficiently. Russians should appreciate that when it comes to CSAR their assets will be within ATGM range, like in Latakia (TOW). They need to fix this.

VladimirSahin wrote:Guys I mean the team on the ground had balls, however it is beyond me how no one noticed that there are enemies in the perimeter, the CSAR landing right next to it could have been totally f*cked up... Then you would have two choppers next to each other, and this time with dead Russians. The next step would have been to hunt those bastards down as revenge. Glad no Russians died, hopefully the RuAF launched one of those revenge operations on the nearest terrorist positions.

At 2 km the guys launching that ATGM are non distinguishable for the human eye. That's all. CSAR was in area for a while, they checked up with the pilots/WO then stood put if there was any sensitive piece of equipment that needed to be bolted out and taken away. Ground op was looking for that effect. Then they got hit by ATGM.

Not exactly new for a hot LZ. People who say this shouldn't have happened, are correct in the sense that once the pilots were taken they should have lifted off. Well someone took the decision to see what could be saved. I doubt this was some captain embedded.

Trying to mindlessly hunt some guys that will get hit later on by an OFAB is the worst recipe for disaster. A war isn't some game, losses happen and material losses are part of the game.

On a second lecture you don't know what the ATGM team was looking at. The 9SH119 sight is a x10 power optic this means that they were looking at the mil like it was on naked eye at 200/250m. Basically they picked up the bigger prize, happens the prize was empty and probably going to be destroyed all the same.

"ASSISTANT OF RUSSIAN MP KILLED IN CLASHES NEAR SYRIAN PALMYRA".

True hero. RIP.


https://southfront.org/assistant-of-russian-mp-killed-in-clashes-near-syrian-palmyra/