Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

It is remarkable the level of access to the engines of the Su-57, quite different from 5G US fighters which have them buried in the airframe. I wonder what the operational requirements are that probably motivated such a different design.

A very harsh piece

Pre-flight expectations: when the Su-57 will take up combat duty

With the supply of fifth-generation fighter can not hesitate

Ilya Kramnik

The media has information about plans to supply the fifth-generation fighter Su-57 in combat units. It is indicated that the first vehicles of this type can be transferred to the fighter regiments of the Southern Military District. At the same time, the appearance of these aircraft in the airborne units is still far away - so far they have not even appeared at the Center for Combat Use and Retraining of the Air Force flight crew in Lipetsk. . Izvestia understood the prospects of the fifth generation Russian fighter.

Basically, if we talk about test tasks, then the existing 10 flying prototypes perform them in the right amount . At the same time, in order to master the machine in the army, it should appear first of all at the main training center of the Air Force, the Lipetsk TsPPIPLS, and this is already the case in the coming years. In 2019–2020, the military should receive the first two production vehicles with engines of the first stage, from which, apparently, the development of a new plane by combatant crews — flight crews and technicians — will begin.

In addition to the contract for two cars signed for “Army-2018” with a deadline of up to the end of 2020, another contract is planned to be signed in the same year 2020, providing for the supply of 13 production cars by the end of 2025. In the event that deliveries really go at this pace, we can talk about the actual sabotage by the military department of the Advanced Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation (PAK FA) program - this number, given the need to transfer part of the machines to Lipetsk to continue their development, will not be enough equipping even one combat squadron.

It is worth noting that such small-scale production will lead to a catastrophic rise in the cost of each individual unit — much more powerful in relative terms than the first generation American F-22A and F-35 cars of the first series, which are commonly cited in the domestic press as an example extravagance - even if this appreciation will be hidden behind one or another redistribution of costs between other contracts.

Under these conditions, there is no need to replace Su-57 fighters with decommissioned Soviet-built Su-27 fighters; they are much more likely to be replaced by supplies of Su-30SM or Su-35, whose mass production is likely to continue in the 2020s years

The dates and volumes of supplies of the Su-57 have shifted and adjusted more than once. So, until March 2015, the state armaments program for 2011–2020 (GVV-2020) provided for the purchase of 52 fifth-generation fighter aircraft. The delivery schedule assumed the transfer of 24 cars (eight per year) in 2016–2018 and another 28 (14 per year) in 2019–2020s, followed by continuation of serial production. In March 2015, the plans were adjusted - a squadron of 12 vehicles was supposed to be purchased starting from 2018, in 2017 the squadron turned into an installation batch of six aircraft, and finally an agreement to supply two serial fighters in 2019-2020.

The total air force demand for fifth-generation fighter jets is estimated at 200–250 aircraft, and it is now assumed that large-scale deliveries of the Su-57 will begin after 2025, at the end of the tests and launch into the engine of the "second stage". This approach is fraught with the fact that the first squadrons on the new aircraft did not reach combat readiness before 2027-2028, whereas by that time NATO countries in Europe, Japan and stationed in Europe and the Far East will have combat units on fifth generation fighters. East contingents of the USAF. Suffice it to say that the F-35 has already produced about 400 units as of “now”, and in the next decade they will be received, among other Air Forces not only in Poland, but already in Finland and Romania, which are lagging behind in the number of modern aircraft in Russia it would be completely indecent.

You can console yourself for a long time with the fact that the war with NATO (or their allies) “in case of anything” will be nuclear, and under these conditions it does not matter what kind of aircraft Russian pilots will have to engage in air combat. However, it is worth noting that the presence of well-equipped and numerous general-purpose forces, including the Air Force, makes it possible, firstly, to maximize the threshold for the use of nuclear weapons, and secondly, to exclude situations in which the nuclear response is still unacceptable, and "Conventional" forces are not enough.

The absence (or insufficiency) of such forces, in turn, excludes limited non-nuclear scenarios, which complicates decision-making in crisis situations, including regional clashes with developed opponents, which is completely possible for Russia, which has a number of contradictions fraught with military clashes, with many countries second-third echelon with serious military potential.

Block supplies
The recipe in this situation, however, is and has been tested in the USA for a long time. It is impossible to require a new generation of the machine to fully comply with the technical requirements at once, in today's conditions of slowed down and more expensive development. It’s not too rational to wait for the industry to issue a fully-equipped aircraft, while still being treated with drip portions.

The solution is to divide the schedule of deliveries into series of technological blocks, where each subsequent block has certain improvements, with the gradual bringing the machine to the originally required parameters. In this case, the machines of the first series are used initially for combat training tasks, and later can be upgraded using new equipment, which is justified, given the sharply increased resource and service life of modern fighters.

In the case of the Su-57, the situation is facilitated by the fact that this aircraft also has sufficient flight characteristics for its intended use for the engines of the first stage, and it is impossible to speak about any inferiority of this machine.

Under these conditions, the serial purchases of the Su-57 in the existing guise are fully justified - among other things, they will give the industry additional funds to improve both the machines and production facilities, speeding up the appearance of a modernized aircraft in the series.

Full article
https://iz.ru/866427/ilia-kramnik/predpoletnye-ozhidaniia-kogda-su-57-zastupiat-na-boevoe-dezhurstvo

I could in general agree with the article. What I have not seen anywhere and personally doubt is that the contract for 13 units will only be fulfilled until 2025, maybe I have missed that. Tests of the second stage engine should be ready by 2022-23, so if this is true one can imagine that all of the units of the second contract would get izd. 30, either retrofit or directly installed, it does not make sense to have half squadron with some engine and half with another. Two of the 15 units could get Izd. 30 retrofitted too and go to Lipetsk. According to KnAAPO the production will need no big adjustment for the second stage due to size and installation being harmonized with izd 117, so I see no need for a big gap between production runs with first and second stage engines.

In the end the decision will probably depend on the progress and results of 2nd stage testing.

LMFS wrote:I could in general agree with the article. What I have not seen anywhere and personally doubt is that the contract for 13 units will only be fulfilled until 2025, maybe I have missed that. Tests of the second stage engine should be ready by 2022-23, so if this is true one can imagine that all of the units of the second contract would get izd. 30, either retrofit or directly installed, it does not make sense to have half squadron with some engine and half with another. Two of the 15 units could get Izd. 30 retrofitted too and go to Lipetsk. According to KnAAPO the production will need no big adjustment for the second stage due to size and installation being harmonized with izd 117, so I see no need for a big gap between production runs with first and second stage engines.

In the end the decision will probably depend on the progress and results of 2nd stage testing.

No critical need to purchase them in a hurry....35's and 30's do the task pretty well for the opponents they face around their borders.

Once they start production it makes no sense to stop it or keep it at extremely low rates. They are quite conservative normally in Russian fighter sourcing programs at ca. 10 units / year. It is smart IMO to spread the effort to keep the lines active and the experienced people on board instead of having too many high and lows in the staffing, which would lead to quality issues. But once the production line is ready it should not be left rusting I guess...

F-22 losing to Rafale in a simulated dog fight *cue WunderWaffle*




The Drive and Popular Mechanics will have you thinking that a plane with 3-D vectoring (Su-57, unlike Rafale) would fair worse...

magnumcromagnon wrote:F-22 losing to Rafale in a simulated dog fight *cue WunderWaffle*




The Drive and Popular Mechanics will have you thinking that a plane with 3-D vectoring (Su-57, unlike Rafale) would fair worse...

That's because everyone in NATO has been taught from birth that Russians are inferior humans. There is nothing intellectual in
this propaganda. It is primitive, tribalist, racist BS.

Funny how that "invisible" F-35 dropped off Japanese radars. The F-22 is picked up modern radars as well. But deluded,
chauvinist clowns will have you believe that these toys don't obey the laws of physics.

More importantly no point in urgently getting half finished aircraft into front line service... half a plane is still half a plane even if it is a new generation.

There are MiG-35s and Su-35s entering service now, it is nothing like the situation for the west where everything is built around the F-35 only.

Who cares if Finland is bankrupted trying to keep F-35s operational and in service... the west crippling itself with these expensive aircraft is a blessing and should be encouraged... and is honestly the only reason I can see for putting more than 200 Su-57s into service, but it is still not reason enough to put unfinished half planes into service.

There is no urgent situation where lack of Su-57s will be a real problem... now or in 5 years time... if they are found to be critical to Russian national defence then it is cheaper to ramp up production later... Hell Turkey could make a few hundred, and so could India and China...

GarryB wrote:More importantly no point in urgently getting half finished aircraft into front line service... half a plane is still half a plane even if it is a new generation.

There are MiG-35s and Su-35s entering service now, it is nothing like the situation for the west where everything is built around the F-35 only.

Who cares if Finland is bankrupted trying to keep F-35s operational and in service... the west crippling itself with these expensive aircraft is a blessing and should be encouraged... and is honestly the only reason I can see for putting more than 200 Su-57s into service, but it is still not reason enough to put unfinished half planes into service.

There is no urgent situation where lack of Su-57s will be a real problem... now or in 5 years time... if they are found to be critical to Russian national defence then it is cheaper to ramp up production later... Hell Turkey could make a few hundred, and so could India and China...

Ah but our master and commander of this forums thinks it's garbage aircraft cause India didn't want it because (proclaimed by Indian (western) owned media) it had bolts sticking out... Of Prototype 0 that is a stationary model without any ram coating on it.

Oh, and apparently Russia buys it with USD as per same individual because nominally Russia can't afford it. Even if it's made in Russia and actually purchased with Rubles.

SU57 is probably 10x the f35 without izdeliye 30, it stays in the air. The f35 is considered complete or whatever and its falling out of the sky like boeing 737 supermax, United States cannot solve the massive problems with these aircrafts. Even with the printing machine, they still cannot get it right.

There is an enormous difference between cannot afford and chooses not to afford.

They could make solid gold aircraft if they wanted, but there would be no value in it for them to do that and the cost would be enormous.

Saying they can't afford it is not accurate, saying they choose not to waste money on that is much more accurate.

Experience in Syria has shown them that a stealth fighter does have some advantages but not as many as you might think... they are certainly not invisible killers the US pretends they are, so if you have Su-35s in production and you have MiG-35s on the way.... what is the rush to get almost ready Su-57s in to active service... they need to take the time to get them right, and perhaps even look at new emerging technologies that might give them a useful edge in combat in the areas of combat their stealthy design makes them more effective at and see if they can make them even better.

The fact that India is rejecting them is curious because their relations with China means the only alternative is the F-35... we have seen the US reaction to India and China buying S-400 missiles and in the case of China Su-35s, so one would expect a similar backlash if India started investing in an Su-30MKI version of Su-57... I rather suspect they have decided that it will take them at least 5 years to decide what they want so nothing they could possibly get till 2024 anyway... why not let the Russians finish their plane and get it in to service and in the mean time keep commercial relations with the US better while they decide what they actually want.

It is India, so there will be factions saying go French, and some new factions saying go F-35, and there will even be some saying fighters are dead, just go for missiles, plus a faction that says we are Indian and we can make things every big as good as anyone else... how about an all Indian 5th gen fighter programme... and why not?

A politician has no idea what is involved in such a project... but which option do you think will get him re-elected initially... even a domestic programme will take a decade before it has obviously failed and been a total waste of time and money... look at the F-35... they are still in denial.

The F-35 is intended to fight 1980s MiG-29 and Su-27... Su-57 is intended to fight modern 5th gen stealth fighters like F-22 and F-35... can you see the problem for the west?

GarryB wrote:

The F-35 is intended to fight 1980s MiG-29 and Su-27... Su-57 is intended to fight modern 5th gen stealth fighters like F-22 and F-35... can you see the problem for the west?

Yeah, says the all knowing you. You think everyone is an idiot except for you. You are like John Mccain/Obama not respecting their opponents and calling them "Russia is a gas station, Putin is a thug" blah blah....you are no different....how old are you man that you have so much wisdom that you share it with so much modesty?

Do you want me to list the American firsts that you take for granted without thinking? Bias is one thing but you are dangerously dumb....

southpark wrote:

LMFS wrote:I could in general agree with the article. What I have not seen anywhere and personally doubt is that the contract for 13 units will only be fulfilled until 2025, maybe I have missed that. Tests of the second stage engine should be ready by 2022-23, so if this is true one can imagine that all of the units of the second contract would get izd. 30, either retrofit or directly installed, it does not make sense to have half squadron with some engine and half with another. Two of the 15 units could get Izd. 30 retrofitted too and go to Lipetsk. According to KnAAPO the production will need no big adjustment for the second stage due to size and installation being harmonized with izd 117, so I see no need for a big gap between production runs with first and second stage engines.

In the end the decision will probably depend on the progress and results of 2nd stage testing.

No critical need to purchase them in a hurry....35's and 30's do the task pretty well for the opponents they face around their borders.

No need to hurry to purchase Su-34s when su-24s do the job...No need to purchase Su-35 when Su-30 does the job..No need to purchase Su-30 whenSu-27SM does the job, No need to purchase Su-27SM when vanilla Su-27 does the job...I could go on.


Purchaisng a 5th gen aircraft isnt just about protecting borders, its about gaining operational expertise that will translate to new technologies, cheaper unit cost, figure out optimal tactics  and strategic usage in realistic military drills,  and to iron out operational defects.

Also why would the Su-57 find buyers when the Russian air force looks like its doesnt want to buy them? Even if they do think the Su-57 is good, from an outside observer this seems suspicious.
Vehicles that Russian doesnt operate itsself have almost never been bought. Nobody bought the T-90MS, MiG-35 or original BMPT.

The article started from an absolutely false reasoning i.e. that the already signed contracts would span equally over a long period of time corresponding to the former SAP 2016-2025 (that doesn't even exist as it was delayed of two years cause of Ukraine crisis).

In the russian praxis the MoD assign contracts for a production batch at time at a given Production Concern "under the State Acquisition Program " but it just doesn't means that the items awarded in such document would be divided in equal quantities into the said ten year period a.t.c. they would produced at full plant capabilities and once they approach to the end of the order a new deal would be signed, obviously also this falling"under the SAP 20XX-20XX+10" .

At the moment two contracts for Su-57 production have already been awarded: one for the usual "first serial" and a second one for a series of about 12 planes with -117 to equip Lipetsk training center plus an handful more (comprising one with objekt 30) to join the above mentioned two at Akhtubinsk.

After this we know that they plan to award contracts for full rate production of definitive version of Su-57 (i.e.the one with new engines) in the SAP 2023-2032 instead.

So what we actually don't know is just how they would divide the already awarded one until 2022.
They said that in the 2019 they would deliver 1st "first serial" and in 2020 the second one.
Seems that the first ones of the regular serial production would be delivered in 2020 also (and probably the first ones would go to Akhtubinsk also).

Said so, for the rest they have almost all options:
Equal distribution: 1st in 2019, 2nd + 2 for Akhtubinsk in 2020, 6 in 2021, 6+ the one with objekt 30 in 2022.
Fast as one can: First serial as above, all the regular series in 2021, the one with 30 in 2022 (so it would act as a first serial for the definitive version)
Award a new contract in SAP 2018-2027: Oh yes, they can do this also, a LRIP batch of "provisional" izd30 in 2022 just to fill the gap.

@Bolshevik345 Because it is expensive for russia to replace everything by new hardware.

Why would foreign military buy something that has only a production line. I mean they can be sure to have the su-57 if they buy them but then what ? If the production line is too costly for russia and is stoped or changed in favor of another jet, maintenance of su-57 for those foreign militaries will reach tramandous prices.

Same for t-90MS. If they buy it and russia stops its production, spare parts will be very expensive. At least export early t-90 shared lot with already produced russian t-90 and t-72 upgrades.


Mig-35 has the same problem but it is also a company in bad situation as Russian air force preferes Sukhoi and the issue with Algerian SMTs is still well known. That doesn't help.


If they want to sell mig-35 and t-90MS, they will need to include lot of ToT in their contracts and allow clients to build lot of spare parts themselves.

bolshevik345 wrote:Purchaisng a 5th gen aircraft isnt just about protecting borders, its about gaining operational expertise that will translate to new technologies, cheaper unit cost, figure out optimal tactics  and strategic usage in realistic military drills,  and to iron out operational defects.

Also why would the Su-57 find buyers when the Russian air force looks like its doesnt want to buy them? Even if they do think the Su-57 is good, from an outside observer this seems suspicious.
Vehicles that Russian doesnt operate itsself have almost never been bought. Nobody bought the T-90MS, MiG-35 or original BMPT.

Yes, that is the bottomline of what the article is saying. If you have the plane and the production line ready, you better start making some planes so that your air force gets used, supply chain improves and in the end you use your investment. No need to hurry but no use and no sense in simply dropping the ball right when you are ready to score.

The amounts of money this sourcing of 6-10 planes/year would mean would be ridiculous compared to the MoD budget.

Marcellogo wrote:
The article started from an absolutely false reasoning i.e. that the already signed contracts would span equally over a long period of time corresponding to the former SAP 2016-2025 (that doesn't even exist as it was delayed of two years cause of Ukraine crisis).

Don't know if it is false but it is a pessimist reasoning in any case.

At the moment two contracts for Su-57 production have already been awarded: one for the usual "first serial" and a second one for a series of about 12 planes with -117 to equip Lipetsk training center plus an handful more (comprising one with objekt 30) to join the above mentioned two at Akhtubinsk.

ATM only one contract, the next will be signed next year according to the available sources

After this we know that they plan to award contracts for full rate production of definitive version of Su-57 (i.e.the one with new engines) in the SAP 2023-2032 instead.

Yeah good point, that is more or less when izd. 30 should be ready so they could sign a bigger contract with it, already on the next GPV. It would not be too fast since Lipetsk would need to update operational doctrine again but they should get a reasonable output in order to have 50-80 planes by the end of next decade.

Seems that the first ones of the regular serial production would be delivered in 2020 also (and probably the first ones would go to Akhtubinsk also).

What for?

Said so, for the rest they have almost all options:
Equal distribution: 1st in 2019, 2nd + 2 for Akhtubinsk in 2020, 6 in 2021, 6+ the one with objekt 30 in 2022.

This is the most likely to me, let's see what happens.

Isos wrote:@Bolshevik345 Because it is expensive for russia to replace everything by new hardware.

At the speeds the procurement works in Russia, they need a decade or so to get 60-100 fighters. This is not replacing all with new HW but simply follow the natural wear of the equipment, it is a completely sustainable approach. Su-57 should replace oldest Su-27 and maybe reactivate some squadron, when the last Su-57 is produced the Su-35s will have 25-30 years...

Why would foreign military buy something that has only a production line. I mean they can be sure to have the su-57 if they buy them but then what ? If the production line is too costly for russia and is stoped or changed in favor of another jet, maintenance of su-57 for those foreign militaries will reach tramandous prices.

Production lines and supply of spares are too different things. What a foreign customer should be aware of (and they are very much so) is that they don't have the Russian companies on such a tight leash as the MoD does, so if MoD is not using the HW and is not in need of a constant supply of spares, the manufacturers can have other priorities than sizing and organizing themselves to supply the odd guy abroad. Once Russian military is an operator, the spares and support must be  guaranteed on the long run and that creates the conditions for foreign customers to buy safely.

If they want to sell mig-35 and t-90MS, they will need to include lot of ToT in their contracts and allow clients to build lot of spare parts themselves.

I don't think so, see above.

bolshevik345 wrote:

southpark wrote:

LMFS wrote:I could in general agree with the article. What I have not seen anywhere and personally doubt is that the contract for 13 units will only be fulfilled until 2025, maybe I have missed that. Tests of the second stage engine should be ready by 2022-23, so if this is true one can imagine that all of the units of the second contract would get izd. 30, either retrofit or directly installed, it does not make sense to have half squadron with some engine and half with another. Two of the 15 units could get Izd. 30 retrofitted too and go to Lipetsk. According to KnAAPO the production will need no big adjustment for the second stage due to size and installation being harmonized with izd 117, so I see no need for a big gap between production runs with first and second stage engines.

In the end the decision will probably depend on the progress and results of 2nd stage testing.

No critical need to purchase them in a hurry....35's and 30's do the task pretty well for the opponents they face around their borders.

No need to hurry to purchase Su-34s when su-24s do the job...No need to purchase Su-35 when Su-30 does the job..No need to purchase Su-30 whenSu-27SM does the job, No need to purchase Su-27SM when vanilla Su-27 does the job...I could go on.


Purchaisng a 5th gen aircraft isnt just about protecting borders, its about gaining operational expertise that will translate to new technologies, cheaper unit cost, figure out optimal tactics  and strategic usage in realistic military drills,  and to iron out operational defects.

Also why would the Su-57 find buyers when the Russian air force looks like its doesnt want to buy them? Even if they do think the Su-57 is good, from an outside observer this seems suspicious.
Vehicles that Russian doesnt operate itsself have almost never been bought. Nobody bought the T-90MS, MiG-35 or original BMPT.

No critical need to purchase them in a HURRY.

Bolded it for you....there are very few countries that need or can afford 5th gen planes. At the moment India is the only one that faces threats and can afford it but even they can afford to wait. Rafales and SU30's can address their threats pretty well provided they have political will to use them.

Checking the Russian patents related to a certain "multi-mode super-maneuverable aircraft with a cruising flight at supersonic speed and small level of visibility in the radar range", we see the following:

The invention relates to aviation technology, namely the air intakes of power plants supersonic aircraft. The pre-emptive scope of the invention are turbofan aircraft with a maximum Mach number not exceeding 3.

Creating subtle in RL-range aircraft (LA) implies that the form of all its elements contributes to the reduction of effective area of dispersion (EPR) LA. This applies to the login form of the intake of the engine. To achieve the desired result all edges of the air intake should have a sweep and be parallel to any of the elements LA (wing leading edges, tail, etc.). The creation of such a supersonic air intake for a Mach number M>2.0, possessing high intrinsic characteristics, is not a trivial task.
...
The technical result, which is aimed at achieving the invention is to provide a by adjusting the angle of the solution steps of one of the swept wedges and the minimum area of the flow section of the inlet stable operation of the engine in all flight regimes up to a Mach number M=3.0 recoveries total pressure at the inlet to the engine is not lower than the standard for adjustable flat intakes and total heterogeneity of the stream below the maximum permissible value
...
The analogs include a supersonic air intake of the F-22, which implements the diagram of the spatial compression of a supersonic flow (Aerodynamics, stability and controllability of supersonic aircraft, ed. by G. S. Byushgens. - M.: Science. Fizmatlit, 1998). To reduce radar visibility of the aircraft the F-22 air intake made give sweep all edges of the entrance. In the front view of the entrance to the inlet has the shape of a parallelogram. The air intake has at one stage of the braking of perforated vertical and horizontal wedges, sash bypass air channel. The air intake duct is S-shaped. The ability to control the area of the minimum passage cross-section (throat). The disadvantages include the lack of regulation of the throat of the air intake of the F-22. For this reason, its characteristics at supersonic flight conditions below the level characteristic for the adjustable air intakes (System analysis of technical shape of the aircraft F/A-22 Raptor, the report FGUP "GosNIIAS" №68 (15396), 2005). Apparently, the air intake is not designed for flight Mach number over M=2.0 (Aerodynamics, stability and controllability of supersonic aircraft, ed. by G. S. Byushgens. - M.: Science. Fizmatlit, 1998).

https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/www.findpatent.ru/patent/247/2472956.html
, 2012-2019

So, even when we are told Su-57's max speed has been set at 2 M, the intakes are 3 M capable. Why to do so is a relevant question IMO. The PAK-FA has been conceived, according to designers, with the requirements of an interceptor, and we haver heard that a family of planes will be created based on it. Why to make a more complex and heavier intake on a plane that has no intent to go beyond 2 M, at the point of requiring several patents to achieve first operational LO 3D adjustable intake? And with such huge capture area, 30% above F-22? There could be some keys to the future roadmap of the plane in such approach I think.

Isos wrote:@Bolshevik345 Because it is expensive for russia to replace everything by new hardware.

Why would foreign military buy something that has only a production line. I mean they can be sure to have the su-57 if they buy them but then what ? If the production line is too costly for russia and is stoped or changed in favor of another jet, maintenance of su-57 for those foreign militaries will reach tramandous prices.

Same for t-90MS. If they buy it and russia stops its production, spare parts will be very expensive. At least export early t-90 shared lot with already produced russian t-90 and t-72 upgrades.


Mig-35 has the same problem but it is also a company in bad situation as Russian air force preferes Sukhoi and the issue with Algerian SMTs is still well known. That doesn't help.


If they want to sell mig-35 and t-90MS, they will need to include lot of ToT in their contracts and allow clients to build lot of spare parts themselves.

I never said about replacing everything. Im talking about trying to produce a few aircraft per year in order to bring costs down and train the workforce.

So you proved me right. The T-90MS isnt being bought abroad effectively cuz the Russians aren't buying the T-90AM. Same for the MiG-35.

India is buying the upgraded T-90s and it is likely a few other countries will buy them...

In 12 years no T-90MS in the Indian army. Zero. Zilch.Nada. Its always a deal being "finalized".

Yeah good point, that is more or less when izd. 30 should be ready so they could sign a bigger contract with it, already on the next GPV. It would not be too fast since Lipetsk would need to update operational doctrine again but they should get a reasonable output in order to have 50-80 planes by the end of next decade.

What if there is a a sudden insurmountable engineering problem with the 30? Until 2014 everything with the redut was just peachy. Until it wasnt. Will the Su-57 be delayed as long as the 30 is delayed?

one of the stans uses the BMPT design...

Is that something to be proud of?

No need to hurry but no use and no sense in simply dropping the ball right when you are ready to score.

Some people here(and the MoD) are unusually enthusiastic about dropping that ball. Good thing they didnt drop the ball in 1979. Otherwise russia would have 12 Su-27s/MiG-29s and a whole bunch of MiG-23MLDM5M3UMs in 1989.

bolshevik345 wrote:What if there is a a sudden insurmountable engineering problem with the 30? Until 2014 everything with the redut was just peachy. Until it wasnt. Will the Su-57 be delayed as long as the 30 is delayed?

That is increasingly unlikely the more the development progresses. First the conceptual design is laid down and materials are developed, then the prototypes are tested during lots of years in the benches and only then the integration with the plane is performed. This last step is ongoing since end of 2017, so already close to 1.5 years, maybe 2-3 years more needed, but no plane tests would have been started if they were not sure about the basic suitability of the design. They have proceeded in a very risk-conscious way, in fact now that I think of it, the very existence of the izd. 117 is maybe a risk management measure.

To address your question, since the 1st stage engine is compatible with the requirements, it would be no big issue at least to ensure acceptable functionality. But I could perfectly understand VKS wanting to tailor their orders to the results of the 2nd stage engine tests.

Some people here(and the MoD) are unusually enthusiastic about dropping that ball. Good thing they didnt drop the ball in 1979. Otherwise russia would have 12 Su-27s/MiG-29s and a whole bunch of MiG-23MLDM5M3UMs in 1989.

Don't think MoD wants to do so, let's wait until the end of the development of the izd. 30 before making conclusions

Missing posts sent to talking bollocks thread in the general chat section...

Was going to find an F-35 thread, but really it would not have improved any of them to be honest.

Sukhoi and Bruk agree on joint design

The Sukhoi Company and the Bruk designer of Russian Elbrus microprocessors signed an agreement on joint designs, Sukhoi said.

The agreement stipulates the creation and introduction of advanced computing platform for aviation and other systems on the basis of Elbrus microprocessors and adapted multicore protected BagrOS-4000 software," it said.

The Defense Ministry has previously certified BagrOS-4000 for multicore processors. It is successfully used in Su-57 jet and is ready to join the avionics of prospective and upgraded aircraft.

BagrOS-4000 is a modern real-time and highly effective and mobile software. It operates computing resources and organizes them for operation in a tough real-time regime.

http://airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/2019-news-aerospace-industry-air-force/april/4967-sukhoi-and-bruk-agree-on-joint-design.html

Documents to export su-57 were approved

Became aware of the finalization of the documents related to the authorization of the sale of Russian fighter of the 5th generation abroad. In the material , citing an informed source, reported that all permits for the export of su-57 have been approved.

Noted that the issue is purely technical in nature.
The Main reason for the issuance of documents authorizing the export of the su-57, associated with its first foreign show. Earlier it was reported that this should happen in autumn this year, during the aerospace exhibition in the United Arab Emirates.

The Corporation rostec believe that middle Eastern countries may be particularly interested in the Russian fifth generation fighter.
According to some, the "exhibition" model of the su-57 is represented in the UAE with the latest engines – engines of the second stage to substantially advance capabilities of a combat vehicle. Need to be reminded that the first su-57 in FSI Russian plan to supply with engines of the first stage.
Thus, the Russian aircraft can make a certain competition to American aircraft of the fifth generation in the international market, especially when accounting for the many flaws that continue to reveal during the exploitation of sverhdorogoy the F-35. However, for overseas potential customers for the su-57 remains a "dark horse".

https://weaponews.com/news/65349811-documents-to-export-su-57-were-approved.html

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/119360/

The engine of the "first stage" for the su-57 was launched in serial production

Russia launches serial production of engine "first stage," AL-41F-1 for the new generation of fighter aircraft, the su-57, evidenced by the presentation of the company-developer of the power unit OKB. The carrycot.

"The transfer of the engine AL-41F-1 into series production in 2018 <...> Oct 2018 — documented decision about the assignment of the character O1 (ready for transfer into production). November 2018 — the completion of the transfer of RKD engine in serial production", — the document says.

It is noted that during the development work built 38 engines, 30 of which were intended for flight tests of the su-57.

The development of this engine with thrust vector control began in 2004 based on the engine su-35S. The main difference is the electronic automatic control system, which is used for the first time in Russia and created the domestic element base.

This engine allows the su-57 to be super-maneuverable and unobtrusive, the developers noted. Another advantage is the oxygen-free plasma system rosiia the main and afterburner combustion chambers.

Work on the engine of the "second phase" is still going on, noted in the Bureau. "The engine features the ability to maintain supersonic speed without afterburner, and a fully digital control system," said producers.

On the flip side, the JSF programme is working hard to reduce the cost of operating the F-35B and F-35C. The stealth fighter costs on average $35,000 per hour to fly, as opposed to $18,000 per hour claimed by Boeing for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

All this is going on as the fighter’s key characteristic – stealth – is increasingly doubted as a trump card in aerial warfare. Boeing has convinced the USN to buy dozens more non-stealthy Super Hornets. It has also convinced the US Air Force buy F-15EXs.

gotta love the pragmatic Ruskies …. they have it right once again ….
they will just use their stealths to knock down AWACs and tankers ….

point being …. what evolves faster and more cheaply ? electronics …. not "aircraft shaping" …. its a no-brainer