Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability. Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability.  Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.

Or long range drones. Definitely Pantsir is a good option.

Isos wrote:Karakurt is small and a gard target for torpedo. It has enough room for a variable deapth sonar or a sonar array. The idea is to have a cost effective ASW dedicated ship to protect navy bases from enemy subs.

Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

And they already said they will use it as a plateform for small ASW ship.

if you look at the pic there is 16 UKSK cells and 12 packet tubes in ASW version...

PapaDragon wrote:
It would be extremely stupid attempt at soluton

If they want to have dedicated anti-sub ship then they should either buy more Steregushi corvettes or modify Bykov patrol ships to carry anti-sub equipment

With Bykov I agree But not with Steregushi really. It is 2x as expensive as 22800, slover and not really better wrt range/autonomy/buyancy.
Besides 22800 are already built 3x per year.

if you look at the pic there is 16 UKSK cells and 12 packet tubes in ASW version...

Who told you it was the ASW version ? They said they will make an ASW version just a few months ago. This version is just a proposed concept like many other concept that were never even looked at by MoD nothig more.

They are working on many different naval drones that could be carried by a small ship like karakurt and this one don't carry any. Drones will be for sure a request when they will order an ASW version.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Isos wrote:Could carry 4 uksk cells for missile torpedo only and no pantsirs. Replace naval gun with rbu and it gives you a pretty nice ship.

Given that enemy subs could carry AShMs (and would use them to supress ASW vessels) it makes sense to give a coastal ASW vessel a self-defense capability.  Eliminating the Pantsir would be a big mistake.

Not entirely true.

They would operate in coastal areas. If an enemy sub fires a antiship missiles it will be heard, detected and the position will be send to naval aviation and a bunch of ka-27 will come to destroy the sub.

It will also operate with bigger corvettes like steregouchshy providing air defence cover.

All their small ship don't need to be multirole. Buyan-M have a weak air defence too consisting of 4 igla yet they buy them. And the 76mm gun can be very good against missiles with a good radar, fcs and fuzed air burst munitions.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3892028.html

If built, besides being an escort & force multiplier, it could also act as a stand by ocean tug for the Adm. K!
Also a version of long endurance OPV for the CG could be useful.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

If built, besides being an escort & force multiplier, it could also act as a stand by ocean tug for the Adm. K!
Also a version of long endurance OPV for the CG could be useful.

OPV is already 22160, good design and tug ekhm unlikely

They would operate in coastal areas. If an enemy sub fires a antiship missiles it will be heard, detected and the position will be send to naval aviation and a bunch of ka-27 will come to destroy the sub.

The RuN isn't going to throw away ASW vessels as disposable bait to reveal the presence of hostile SSGNs. A response by land-based helos would take time and the enemy can run deep and quiet to avoid the response.

It will also operate with bigger corvettes like steregouchshy providing air defence cover.

The idea of having small ASW ships is that they are cheap and plentiful and can cover a large area (important for Russia and its vast nothern coastline).  It doesn't make sense to require small ASW ships to operate under cover of an AD corvette or larger escort to protect it from the enemies it is supposed to be hunting...  For a start, their won't be enough corvettes to cover all maritime areas that require ASW coverage.

All their small ship don't need to be multirole. Buyan-M have a weak air defence too consisting of 4 igla yet they buy them.

Buyan & Buyan-M have minimal AD as they were built for inland waters like Caspian Flotilla, a low threat environment. Thats not applicable for a open coast ASW that might have to face an SSGN (or a strike aircraft from a CBG). Soviet-era small ASW like the Grisha class (~1000T) carried an SA-N-4.

And the 76mm gun can be very good against missiles with a good radar, fcs and fuzed air burst munitions.

As a principle, modern ship artillery could serve a AD/AMD purpose, but I'd hate to have to rely on it if a Seawolf or Virginia was throwing a brace of Harpoons my way....

Is there a requirement by Russian Navy to have anti-sub ship without helicopter?

How close to coast do they expect them to operate if helicopter isn't a necessity?

PapaDragon wrote:Is there a requirement by Russian Navy to have anti-sub ship without helicopter?

How close to coast do they expect them to operate if helicopter isn't a necessity?

Small ASW will probably carry a helo drone. Not as good as a manned helo but better than zip and doesn't require anywhere near the shipside real estate.

Shore based helos, MPA & SSKs r better than small/medium missile boats not designed nor suited for the ASW.

Effective coastal ASW requires multiple types of systems, working together. Each has their pros and cons, but together they make up for each others deficiences.

I don't think has been posted, some training footage

First one with Pantsir-M Odintsovo doing de-perming





Next one Burya looks like its getting an install


And the Kerch boats are on the move again

Finally something is going on with this class, whey have now, what, 4-5 hulls that are just sitting idle waiting on engines. That's 7 ships total, at least, with Long range precision missiles, more firepower then some entire Navy's.

The barrels are still missing o the Pantsir!

Small missile ships “Okhotsk” and "Vikhr" (serial numbers 255 and 256) towed for completion at the Pella plant



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4026754.html

Russia’s Baltic Fleet to receive 4 ships with Kalibr missiles and Pantsir systems

The Pantsir-M close-in weapon systems will soon undergo testing on the Odintsovo corvette

MOSCOW, May 18. /TASS/. The Baltic Fleet will receive a batch of six Project 22800 missile corvettes, armed with the Kalibr cruise missiles; four of them will also be armed with the Pantsir-M close-in weapon systems, which will soon undergo testing on the Odintsovo corvette, Russian Navy Commander Admiral Nikolay Yevmenov announced Monday.

"Soon, the surface part of the Baltic Fleet will be reinforced with a batch of six Project 22800 missile corvettes. Four of them will carry a naval version of the Pantsir system. Odintsovo will become the first one, the Pantsir system will undergo testing on this ship," the Commander’s congratulatory telegram to the sailors, dedicated to the Fleet’s 317th anniversary, says, according to the Fleet press service.

The Odintsovo corvette was initially laid down under Shkval name at the Saint Petersburg’s Pella shipyard on July 29, 2016; it was commissioned on May 5, 2018. The corvette is the first ship to be equipped with the naval version of the Pantsir system.

The Project 22800 corvettes are equipped with Kalibr cruise missiles, modern control, radio, navigation, electronic warfare systems, counter-diversion armaments, man-portable air-defense systems. The ships are designed to act either as part of naval groups or on their own.

https://tass.com/defense/1157495

The fate of "Karakurt": distributed the first batch of small missile ships

The six latest RTOs will receive the Baltic, Black Sea and Pacific fleets

Small missile ships (RTOs) "Karakurt" will be divided between the fleets. Those who left the shipbuilding yards of 18 RTOs will be sent to the Pacific Ocean, the Baltic and Black Seas in equal shares - six units each. The Caspian Flotilla and the Northern Fleet will be left without the “kids” of this project. Experts note that this decision can be called unexpected, since it was originally planned to create one powerful missile group in the Navy and not to spray ships.

Hit from an ambush
A preliminary decision on the distribution of RTOs of project 22800 Karakurt was taken by the Navy Commander-in-Chief. However, it can still be adjusted - it depends on the timing of the implementation of the shipbuilding program, sources in the military department told Izvestia. RTOs have more than once unexpectedly been transferred from one fleet to another.

https://iz.ru/1013506/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/sudba-karakurta-raspredelena-pervaia-partiia-malykh-raketnykh-korablei

Caspian Fleet can do without Karakurts since they are more suited for anti-ship role anyway and maybe they can send several Buyans back to Caspian once Karakurts are delivered

North Fleet needs anti-sub ships so it's also not surprising they ain't getting them


But original plan was to have 18 Karakurts in one place? That would have been something, overkill of course but still would be cool

Caspian fleet has enough ships. No big threats there to justify more of them. If they want more UKSK just put the container kalibr launchers on civilian ships.

All the other fleets needs more ships.

Isos wrote:Caspian fleet has enough ships. No big threats there to justify more of them. If they want more UKSK just put the container kalibr launchers on civilian ships. ...

Container Kalibrs don't exist so can we please stop with fanboying already?


Caspian Sea is perfect location for Byans, you hold entire Middle East/Central Asia in range from there

Once other fleets get new boats they should relocate several Buyans there (bring them back in other words)

Container Kalibrs don't exist so can we please stop with fanboying already?

It exists but not deployed/bought.

Caspian Sea is perfect location for Byans, you hold entire Middle East/Central Asia in range from there

Once other fleets get new boats they should relocate several Buyans there (bring them back in other words)

Nato/Turley is a bigger concern for Russia. Middle east isn't Russia's problem and the Caspian neighbours are too weak to put in danger Russia.

They don't get that much new ships to allow relocating of Buyans and that's more true with the operation in Mediteranean that takes away half of the black sea fleet there constantly. That won't change for the next 15 years and conflicts like Syria will multiply recquiring more of the other fleet's ships.

Caspian sea isn't a priority for sure.

Isos wrote:

Caspian sea isn't a priority for sure.

Now that missiles are getting longer ranges the Caspian is a pretty good place to keep assets safely out of harms way. Much of what they would be tasked with in the Black Sea they could surely do from there?

4th pr. 22800 for the Pacific Fleet "Pavlovsk" will be laid in the summer of 2020

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8514243