Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

Big_Gazza wrote:

kvs wrote:The Moon base is by far the most worthwhile project.   Hopping to another glorified Moon, aka Mars, does not make sense without first developing
the foreign planet station technology.   The Moon is the ideal field test and people can be rescued whereas they can't be rescued on Mars.

Also, the Moon is likely to have the minerals that would possibly justify space mining.   It would be cheaper to get them from the Moon than
from the asteroid belt.   In theory asteroid mining would be cheaper, but super low gravity drilling and explosive boring is hardly existing
technology.  

People are letting their fantasies run loose and think that they can get instant sci-fi gratification.   That is why they bitch and bitch about
the Russian space program failing to deliver.   It's not like their own space programs (if they have them) are delivering.   But instead of bitching
against their own "failures" they feel compelled to bitch against Russia.

DeltaV requirements to return useful quantities of materials to Earth is always going to be the giant hurdle that space-based mining will likely never be able to overcome.  There is nothing on asteroids or even the moon that is intriniscally valuable enough to justify the immense costs of extraction and shipping to earth.

Mining on the moon doesn't necessarily  have to be about  returning  stuff to earth. It could be used to expand lunar colonization  and create permanent settlements, as well as industry. Humanity must become an interplanetary  species in order to have a better chance not to become extinct and taming the Moon is the first step to that.

I think we should know more about the leader of Roscosmos.
Interesting biography: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world//russia/rogozin.htm

limb wrote:Mining on the moon doesn't necessarily  have to be about  returning  stuff to earth. It could be used to expand lunar colonization  and create permanent settlements, as well as industry. Humanity must become an interplanetary  species in order to have a better chance not to become extinct and taming the Moon is the first step to that.

Yes, thats the usual response of the space true-believers, but they ignore one important caveat - what are these Moon residents going to be doing that makes the colossal effort worthwhile?  They can't justify their existence by spending all their waking hours involved in the mundane and endless activities of simply surviving in a brutally hostile and utterly unforgiving environment.  Its no use mining the moon for local building materials if nothing worthwhile results from the use of those materials.    

I'm in favour of a Moonbase in general, but only for the exploration value.  Simply because the Moon is there.  I accept that it is a big useless ball of dessicated rock and dust and will NEVER be a place where humans can thrive like they can on Earth, but it is still important to have a foothold and carry out exploration.  I could expand this to Mars as well in the appropriate timescale, but mass colonisation? pfftt...  better to spend the effort and creativity on making this planet a better place to live and a more sustainable cradle for our species.  It's the only life-supporting place in this solar system, and given the likely impossibility of practical interstellar travel, its our only real option.

In Russia, an experiment will be held to simulate the flight of astronauts to the Moon
https://ria.ru/20210324/luna-1602711930.html

nemerson wrote:In Russia, an experiment will be held to simulate the flight of astronauts to the Moon
https://ria.ru/20210324/luna-1602711930.html

Introduce yourself pls here:
https://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules

Space truck "Progress" set a record for the duration of the flight

source

MOSCOW, 28 Mar - RIA Novosti. The Russian cargo vehicle Progress MS-14, located on the International Space Station (ISS), has set a record for the duration of the flight for ships of this family, RIA Novosti calculated.

Prior to that, the record for the duration of the flight belonged to the Progress M-17 spacecraft, which in 1993-1994 spent 337 days in orbit, including as part of the Mir station.
On Sunday at 04:45 Moscow time, Progress MS-14, which was launched on April 25, 2020 and is now docked to the Zvezda module of the ISS Russian segment, exceeded this duration.

According to the NASA website , the spacecraft undocking from the station is scheduled for April 27, so Progress MS-14 will have to stay in space for at least 367 days (more than a year).
In 2021, it is planned to launch the Progress MS-17 (June 30) and Progress MS-18 (October 28) spacecraft. In addition, the launch of the Progress M-UM specialized spacecraft with the Prichal nodal module is scheduled for November 24.
The Progress ships are used to deliver cargo for the crew, fuel, oxygen, air and drinking water to the station. Since 1978, there have been 168 launches of Progress spacecraft of various modifications, three of which did not make it to the ISS due to launch vehicle accidents in 2011, 2015 and 2016.

With Nauka and Prichal finally launching to ISS, how much longer will it be before NEM-1 launch date will be finalised?

Regarding todays SN11 failure:

Musk said one of the Raptor engines “had issues on ascent” and “didn’t reach operating chamber pressure” during the landing burn.

So much for Raptor being "better" than RD-series engines. Rather than being the latest thing in superior Western private-enterprise techno-wizardry, in reality they are poorly performing and unreliable.

Thats what happens when you believe your innate exceptionalism will conquer the laws of physics and render the engineering difficulties encountered by others to be of no real consequence...  

Northern Sea Route online: How satellites monitor navigation

Arktika-M satellites will provide round-the-clock all-weather monitoring of the Earth surface and the Arctic seas

MOSCOW, March 31. /TASS/. On February 28, the Soyuz-2.1b carrier with the Fregat booster, sent the first Arktika-M hydrometeorological satellite into orbit, and on March 22, the national space agency, Roskosmos, published first images from the satellite.

The satellite is on the highly elliptical orbit (HEO) with an apogee of 37,400 - 39,800 km, and a perigee of 600-3000 km. The Arktika-M highly elliptical hydrometeorological space system should comprise at least two satellites. Arktika-M satellites will provide round-the-clock all-weather monitoring of the Earth surface and the Arctic seas, and also constant and reliable communications.

Deputy Head of the Section for Multispectral Scanners Development at the Russian Space Systems Company Yuri Gektin told TASS about the satellite, its additional protection and further satellite systems.

From temperatures to ice shifts

Changes in circulation of air flows in the Arctic cause weather changes both in the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Thus, many polar stations have been organized on the Arctic islands and coastlines. They conduct weather, geophysics, geomagnetic and hydrology studies.

"However, until now, not a country in the world has made a satellite constellation to watch the polar areas," Gektin said.

Forecast accuracy (air temperatures, pressure, etc.) requires measurements per every 10-20 square kilometers north of the 60th latitude. To an extent, this is what low-orbit satellites do every 90 minutes, but the measurements should be tenfold more accurate. This is the task for the Arktika-M satellites, he added.

HEO satellites may collect meteorology and hydrology data referring to the Earth’s northern areas, and the scanning equipment is used for ongoing imaging of the Earth every 15 to 30 minutes. The satellites will additionally measure the wind speed. All the parameters will be transmitted to the Earth, where experts will make atmosphere models for accurate forecasts, which are extremely important for the air and sea navigation.

The Arktika-M satellite will watch the space weather and the solar radiation that affects electronics. The helio-physical complex will track processes in the near-Earth space and near space, will study the impact of the solar wind on the magnetosphere and ionosphere. "The complex will allow us to study the physics and structure of the Earth's upper atmosphere to develop a number of fundamental sciences," Gektin said.

As another major task of the new satellite constellation, it will observe ice flows. "This frequency of surveying will allow observing how ice fields move and where wide cracks are formed," the researcher said, stressing that this would help organize navigation along the Northern Sea Route.

Day and night

The imaging will be from the distance of 1 to 4 km, and the temperature precision will make 0.1 - 0.2 degrees Celsius. Further on, the data will be transmitted every 15, 20, 30 minutes year-round.

"Interestingly, in those areas thick clouds are not often, and thus we can watch the entire Northern Sea Route in real time to assist the navigation," the scientist said.

"The equipment installed on the satellite allows simultaneous observation in ten spectral bands, seven of them are thermal and this will allow observing day and night," he said.

Arctic pioneers

Russia in fact is a pioneer in this sphere, the specialist said. "It will be the first system in the world, which will work on that orbit and which will transmit that amount of data on the North Pole," he said.

"As for certain technical specifications of our satellites, in some aspects they are behind western examples, but this difference, like in radiometric precision, is not crucial," Gektin said, adding the Russian equipment’s cost is about 30 times lower than that of similar western systems.

The first Arktika-M satellite has equipment similar to that used on the Elektro geostationary satellite. But since the orbit is not circular and its lower part crosses the heights of about 1,000 km, which radiation areas are most ‘poisonous’ for electronics, the satellite has received additional protection from the radiation. "Arktika also has additional recording devices to backup information in case of failures," the expert added.

Arktika-M uses sophisticated software, which changes the satellite’s positioning twice during every spin, which is necessary first of all for the radiation system of cooling heat receivers, without which it would not be possible to receive seven-channel images in thermal ranges.

Further plans

The program’s target is to organize a stable constellation, when on the orbit constantly remain two or three satellites (to assure smooth work even in case of failures). Scientists want to launch at least two satellites, which will be synchronized with the period of six hours. "In that case, while one is close to the Earth, the other takes images," Gektin said. "Later on, third and fourth satellites may join the process."

Three-four satellites integrated into the orbital cluster will provide for continuously obtaining data and will help study objects and observe processes with an interval of 5-10 minutes, the expert said.

"For the stable inflow of information from those space apparatuses, we may need to build a few stations in higher latitudes," he said.

Presently, one Arktika-M satellite is working on the orbit. Scientists will analyze its functioning to see how satellites may be upgraded. "The information, received from the satellites, will be processed by scientists, who will say what tasks may be set, in which direction to develop the equipment’s next generation, what to install additionally, and in what directions we need more work," he added.

The Arktika-M satellite, launched in February 2021, is expected to work for at least seven-eight years. If nothing extraordinary happens, it "will work without problems even for ten years," the expert said.

https://tass.com/science/1272345

Big_Gazza wrote:Regarding todays SN11 failure:

Musk said one of the Raptor engines “had issues on ascent” and “didn’t reach operating chamber pressure” during the landing burn.

So much for Raptor being "better" than RD-series engines. Rather than being the latest thing in superior Western private-enterprise techno-wizardry, in reality they are poorly performing and unreliable.

Thats what happens when you believe your innate exceptionalism will conquer the laws of physics and render the engineering difficulties encountered by others to be of no real consequence...  

So when a Spaceship succesfully lands with Raptors you will concede Raptors are part of a better technology?

I actually expected that this time, after the delay for engine change, SN11 will achieve landing.
It is a bit disapointing, but seeing they will roll SN15 to the launch pad in a few days, to test all the new improvements and tech solutions, I am pretty confident issue is solvable.

Anyways, I dont want to go off topic too much. So Roscosmoss is going to dock Nauka to ISS?
If I remember correctly they wanted to have their own space station? Will they keep their spot both on ISS and build their own space station? Or the plans for their space station were scrapped?

What research will the Luna 25 do that stands out from what Chinese lunar probes do?

limb wrote:What research will the Luna 25 do that stands out from what Chinese lunar probes do?

Lunar payloads will primarily be for geological investigations, along with imaging plus some fields & particles.  

There will be some differences however.  CE4 had a mini-enviromental enclosure for growing seeds and a solar science instrument, while Luna 25 has a more comprehensive geology suite and will have a laser reflector for libration measurements.

Nomad5891 wrote:So Roscosmoss is going to dock Nauka to ISS?
If I remember correctly they wanted to have their own space station?  Will they keep their spot both on ISS and build their own space station? Or the plans for their space station were scrapped?

The plan seems to be that they are keeping their options open.  They'll attach Nauka and relocate the radiators and airlock bolt-ons previously delivered (stowed onto Rassvet) to the new module, then they will launch the Prichal node (already built and in storage) to support future extensions.  If ISS life is extended they can send up the NPP modules when ready.  If ISS is not extended they can detach from ISS and free-fly, then send up a series of Progress tankers to shift orbital inclination to something more appropriate for Russia's northerly latitudes. Then it could form the core of a new Russian-only station and be supplemented with additional module and probably a replacement for Zvezda as it will be nearly hitting the 30 year mark.

If this comes to pass it will be interesting to see what happen to Zarya as the US official position is that they own the module as it was US funded. I've never heard Russians repeat this, so is this in fact truth and supported by contractural documentation, or is it another example of Americans asserting something to be true because its simply their policy to do so?

If the ROS is to be detached as a free-flyer I suspect that zarya will be a necessary component as a Soyuz/Progress mated to Nauka/Prichal with its engine thrust vector acting thru the Zvesda transfer compartment needs Zarya to remain balanced. The following shows what I mean, even though it doesn't show Prichal or a docked transport.



Now whether or not Russia decides to do this or not, the salient point is that this is an option for them, while NASA/ESA will have no choice but to abandon their segments in totality. No re-use. No salvage. They abandon the installation and watch it burn up. Russia built their section with free-flyers while the US assembled theirs manually from modules lofted by the Shuttle, and the Eurotrash had no choice but to do what NASA told them. Westeners belittled the Soviets/Russians for being "inefficient" and not having a space truck when building Mir and ROS, yet now the Shuttle is just a museum exhibit and all future stations such as Lunar Gateway and the Chinese Tianhe will be built "Soviet style" from free-flyers. I'll admit to feeling a touch of smug satisfaction at watching these bastards having to swallow their words...

owais.usmani wrote:https://ria.ru/20210406/kompaniya-1604377528.html

MOSCOW, April 6 - RIA Novosti. The Russian private company " CosmoKurs ", which planned to create a reusable suborbital complex for space tourism and build a cosmodrome in the Nizhny Novgorod region , will be closed, CEO of the company Pavel Pushkin told RIA Novosti .

"The company is being liquidated, the workers have been announced to be cut," he said.

The reason for the closure was insurmountable difficulties in coordinating the requirements for the cosmodrome project with the local authorities and the impossibility of obtaining the necessary regulatory documentation from the Ministry of Defense for the design of a suborbital tourist rocket. Pushkin told RIA Novosti about the difficulties earlier.

At present 50 designers of rocket and space technology work in "KosmoKurs". They were warned about the dismissal two months before the layoff, after which the procedure for the liquidation of the organization will begin.
As RIA Novosti was told in Roskosmos , the management of the state corporation decided to retain the team of designers, for which they are looking for ways to solve the problem.

"The Roskosmos management is aware of the situation that has developed around the CosmoCourse company. Now consultations are underway with one of the scientific institutions included in the Roskosmos perimeter on the inclusion of a unique team in its composition," the press service of the state corporation said ...
Directly solving the problem is the general designer of Russia for launch vehicles, deputy general director of the head scientific institute "Roskosmos" TsNIIMash, Alexander Medvedev .
The CosmoCourse company was established in 2014 to develop rocket and space technology and provide services for tourist suborbital flights. To carry out the launches, it was planned to create a cosmodrome near Nizhny Novgorod .

At one time, the company was a resident of the Skolkovo Foundation , received a license from Roscosmos for space activities.
The CosmoKurs project involved the development of a single-stage reentry rocket and a seven-seat spacecraft. The first flight was planned for 2025. Tourists had to spend about five minutes in zero gravity.
A ticket to space was roughly estimated at 200-250 thousand dollars. The company planned to conduct up to 115 launches per year, sending up to 700 people on the journey. Most of them were expected to be foreigners.
Previously, for various reasons, companies such as the satellite-building company Dauria, the developer of light rockets Lin Industrial, the Galaktika group of companies were closed or reduced their activity to a minimum, multiple changes in management and plans are pursuing the owner of the Sea Launch complex, a space company of the group S7 - S7 Space.

Nice

Promoted by the government, and then defeated by the government's own bureaucracy

Wouldn't be Russia otherwise.

flamming_python wrote:

Nice

Promoted by the government, and then defeated by the government's own bureaucracy

Wouldn't be Russia otherwise.

Well, this is one of the main weaknesses of a quasi state controlled economy which we have now in Russia.

Yes, it allows for stability and for some key players to grow but it also suffocates the real entrepreneur. The one that starts with a great idea and skills in a garage. The one that made USA a great place to live back in the last century.

I am not saying the wild capitalism in USA we have now is a better option, extremes are bad always.


@Big_Gazza thanks mate for the explanations. Who is to decide about the ISS life extension? Also is there a technical reason for not extending it's life? Or is it just politics?

owais.usmani wrote:https://ria.ru/20210406/kompaniya-1604377528.html

MOSCOW, April 6 - RIA Novosti. The Russian private company " CosmoKurs ", which planned to create a reusable suborbital complex for space tourism and build a cosmodrome in the Nizhny Novgorod region , will be closed, CEO of the company Pavel Pushkin told RIA Novosti .

"The company is being liquidated, the workers have been announced to be cut," he said.
.................

Previously, for various reasons, companies such as the satellite-building company Dauria, the developer of light rockets Lin Industrial, the Galaktika group of companies were closed or reduced their activity to a minimum, multiple changes in management and plans are pursuing the owner of the Sea Launch complex, a space company of the group S7 - S7 Space.

Cosmokurs has been dead for years, soon it will be official for all the others

Did any of these companies actually expect Rogozin's Roskosmos to help them and not to block them every step of the way?

Even a single successful launch by any of them would make Rogozin look like a moron (yet again) in comparison

And that pathetic insecure manchild would never stand for it

As I read Roskosmos is now going to take over the space tourism business and plans to have something ready by 2023

I just hope the team that company assembled will be kept and put to good use, as the Roskosmos management claims

flamming_python wrote:As I read Roskosmos is now going to take over the space tourism business and plans to have something ready by 2023

I just hope the team that company assembled will be kept and put to good use, as the Roskosmos management claims

Space tourism is low effort bullshit that contributes precisely NOTHING to Russian scientific and security interests

Opportunity for Rogozin to pretend to do something and nothing more

There was a reason why it was originally dumped to private companies where it belongs

owais.usmani wrote:https://ria.ru/20210406/kompaniya-1604377528.html

MOSCOW, April 6 - RIA Novosti. The Russian private company " CosmoKurs ", which planned to create a reusable suborbital complex for space tourism and build a cosmodrome in the Nizhny Novgorod region , will be closed, CEO of the company Pavel Pushkin told RIA Novosti .

"The company is being liquidated, the workers have been announced to be cut," he said.

The reason for the closure was insurmountable difficulties in coordinating the requirements for the cosmodrome project with the local authorities and the impossibility of obtaining the necessary regulatory documentation from the Ministry of Defense for the design of a suborbital tourist rocket. Pushkin told RIA Novosti about the difficulties earlier.

At present 50 designers of rocket and space technology work in "KosmoKurs". They were warned about the dismissal two months before the layoff, after which the procedure for the liquidation of the organization will begin.
As RIA Novosti was told in Roskosmos , the management of the state corporation decided to retain the team of designers, for which they are looking for ways to solve the problem.

"The Roskosmos management is aware of the situation that has developed around the CosmoCourse company. Now consultations are underway with one of the scientific institutions included in the Roskosmos perimeter on the inclusion of a unique team in its composition," the press service of the state corporation said ...
Directly solving the problem is the general designer of Russia for launch vehicles, deputy general director of the head scientific institute "Roskosmos" TsNIIMash, Alexander Medvedev .
The CosmoCourse company was established in 2014 to develop rocket and space technology and provide services for tourist suborbital flights. To carry out the launches, it was planned to create a cosmodrome near Nizhny Novgorod .

At one time, the company was a resident of the Skolkovo Foundation , received a license from Roscosmos for space activities.
The CosmoKurs project involved the development of a single-stage reentry rocket and a seven-seat spacecraft. The first flight was planned for 2025. Tourists had to spend about five minutes in zero gravity.
A ticket to space was roughly estimated at 200-250 thousand dollars. The company planned to conduct up to 115 launches per year, sending up to 700 people on the journey. Most of them were expected to be foreigners.
Previously, for various reasons, companies such as the satellite-building company Dauria, the developer of light rockets Lin Industrial, the Galaktika group of companies were closed or reduced their activity to a minimum, multiple changes in management and plans are pursuing the owner of the Sea Launch complex, a space company of the group S7 - S7 Space.

So we see in this thread the usual "sky is falling" masturbation but when you actually read this news blurb you see that this company
was a glorified IP outfit like Rambus. It did not have any ability to either build rockets or cosmodromes. Before assuming
that they would be automatically successful how about providing some objective evidence that they did not fold like hundreds of
such companies in the west. The company owner's claims cannot be treated as "God's own truth (TM)". They probably fcuked
over some shareholders and want to pass the buck onto the government.

The notion that this outfit would be flying by 2025 without even having built a prototype is hilarious. It proves they fcuked up and
may have been a scam in the first place. The idea that some cosmodrome construction stopped them is pap for morons.

kvs wrote:So we see in this thread the usual "sky is falling" masturbation but when you actually read this news blurb you see that this company
was a glorified IP outfit like Rambus.   It did not have any ability to either build rockets or cosmodromes.   Before assuming
that they would be automatically successful how about providing some objective evidence that they did not fold like hundreds of
such companies in the west.   The company owner's claims cannot be treated as "God's own truth (TM)".   They probably fcuked
over some shareholders and want to pass the buck onto the government.

The notion that this outfit would be flying by 2025 without even having built a prototype is hilarious.   It proves they fcuked up and
may have been a scam in the first place.   The idea that some cosmodrome construction stopped them is pap for morons.

Bingo. This company has folded because they aren't a serious concern and have no actual ability to deliver on their visions. Why should Roscosmos be forced to commit public money to a private enterprise, and make efforts to pave the way forward for them? Just because they are a private enterprise doesn't mean that the authorities need to approve whatever plans they lodge or grant whatever permits they ask for. If their proposals don't measure up, they don't get to play. Unlike the US, Russia isn't a pro-Oligarch free-for-all where wealthy corporations get to do whatever they want and the pubically accountable gov sits with its thumb up its arse and gives them whatever they ask for. Heck, the US gov has pumped BILLIONS of public funds into SpaceX as subsidies via no-bid over-priced contracts for launch services (free R&D and development capital was built into the price), and the public has zero equity to show for its "investment", yet no-one in Uh'Murikkka will even acknowledge the fact.

IMHO space tourism is a fad and the actual demand for these services isn't sufficient to support a profitable industry. Branson has been trying for years to get his outfit up and running and still hasn't put a single paying bum on a single seat.

Nomad5891 wrote:@Big_Gazza thanks mate for the explanations. Who is to decide about the ISS life extension? Also is there a technical reason for not extending it's life? Or is it just politics?

Good question, and in all honesty, I have no real idea who decides Politics always plays a part, especially when the US holds the greater power over the eventual outcome, and have this absurd mania for sanctions on those who refuse to get on their knees and open their mouths...

The ISS was originally designed for a 15 year design life, so we are already >5 years past that for the oldest modules, ie Zarya and the Unity node. Engineering studies can result in a recertification and prolongement of working life, and IIRC they are working on certs for operating up to 2028 with de-orbiting around 2030. Nothing last forever and its simply an unavoidable fact that space stations, just like washing machines, cars and microwave ovens eventually wear out and fail. The complicating factor is that you don't want to be onboard a space station when it goes kaput in a catastrophic way, so its important to draw a line in the sand and play it safe.

GarryB wrote:...ISS is essentially MIR 2...

Wrong

ISS is original American project for Space Station Freedom which was modified to include Russian segments after USSR collapsed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:...ISS is essentially MIR 2...

Wrong

ISS is original American project for Space Station Freedom which was modified to include Russian segments after USSR collapsed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom

Be precise: This is a project of the failed American space station, which was BASED on segments of Russian production and was created with the involvement of Russian technologies and experience in the construction of modular stations. The US could not implement FREEDOM, so the initial stage needed the help of the Russians.

By the way, without the Russian transport ships, the ISS would have burned up in the atmosphere long ago. And this is also a fact.