Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

They had a contract to design Yenisei, now this

Rosatom will test prototypes of plasma engines for space

MOSCOW, December 15 - RIA Novosti. The Russian government plans in 2022-2024 to allocate over 2.6 billion rubles from the state budget to the enterprise of the state corporation "Rosatom" "State Scientific Center of the Russian Federation" Troitsk Institute for Innovation and Thermonuclear Research "(TRINITI) for the construction of an experimental base, which is necessary, among other things, for testing prototypes of magnetoplasma electric propulsion engines with enhanced performance in conditions simulating space.

The draft resolution of the Cabinet of Ministers, developed by Rosatom, was published on Tuesday on the portal of draft regulations. According to the document, the total investment from the federal budget for the project for the reconstruction of two TRINITY buildings with the creation and placement there of test benches for electric jet engines and for a powerful neutron source in 2022-2024 will amount to 2.66 billion rubles. Another 296 million rubles, as planned, will be TRINITY's own funds, and the total volume of capital investments in this project in 2021-2024 will amount to almost 3 billion rubles.

Full article
https://ria.ru/20201215/dvigateli-1589359369.html

dino00 wrote:They had a contract to design Yenisei, now this

Rogozin shitting the bed as always

PTK-NP was supposed to be launched originally by Rus-M but it was moved to Angara for which it had to be extensively redesigned and lightened before it was moved to Soyuz-5 and redesigned again after which it was moved again to Angara

This idiot also said that Soyuz-5 is supposed to replace Soyuz-2 even though Soyuz-5 is replacement for Proton which is in completely different weight class than Soyuz-2

Russian space program is colossal clustefuck ran by illiterate flat-earther who jumps from one random thing to next without any​ semblance of a plan other than to make him look less incompetent hence this latest Angara switch: Angara is latest rocket to be successfully launched and videos of it were posted on YouTube which he sees as better PR for himself than Soyuz-5 which is still in development phase and which will not be able to deliver YouTube video to fluff Trampoline Man's image for quite a while

Hence​ most logical course of action for Rogozin was to ditch PR-unfriendly Soyuz-5 and Yenisei and to piggyback his online image on video of Angara launch

As for poor shmucks stuck designing PTK-NP they are once again saddled with completely redesigning the albatross and is only a matter of time before this group also leaves Roskosmos for private sector same as previous design team who were poached by S7

How to twist an intelligent statement of fact into "proof that Rogozin is shitting himself". GTFO.

Unlike the resident Balkanoid hater, Rogozin is being informed (through his own efforts and through advisors) that
there are technological developments that make the plans of even 5 years ago obsolete. Of course Russia
haters and various chicken littles cannot admit that such technological development is happening in Russia.
After all, Obummer and McCain said that Russia doesn't make anything is nothing more than a gas station
posing as a country. Please America, get back to your ballot stuffing "elections".

dino00 wrote:They had a contract to design Yenisei, now this

Take it easy. It is smarter to change the design than to plow along just because some internet peanut gallery critic
is not happy with the pace of development.

PapaDragon wrote:

This idiot also said that Soyuz-5 is supposed to replace Soyuz-2 even though Soyuz-5 is replacement for Proton which is in completely different weight class than Soyuz-2

Soyuz 5 is not a replacement for Proton, that job goes to A-5/A-5M.

I could stomach your anti-Rogozin rants if you were at least factually accurate, but as it is, you're in the same class as Vann7 'cept your irrational hatred isn't aimed at Putin.

dino00 wrote:They had a contract to design Yenisei, now this

Not sure what the issue is.  Yenisei is the mega project that Russia must get right.   They can't afford mistakes, and building a SHLV its not as easy as just strapping together a set of Soyuz 5 cores.  It makes sense to get the requirements right for both the launcher and pad facilities and to adopt new technological solutions that are currently being developed.

I'll reserve judgement until it becomes clear what this does to cost & schedule.  Lets leave it to PD to indulge in childish outbursts and throwing of toys from the cot.

Big_Gazza told:

I could stomach your anti-Rogozin rants if you were at least factually accurate, but as it is, you're in the same class as Vann7 'cept your irrational hatred isn't aimed at Putin.

Sorry but my hatred is perfectly justified. i hate incompetence . and putin is an incompetent.
Putin is an incompetent and insecure and weak President ,and his actions cost many russian people
and russian soldiers lives. because Russia western enemies if they perceive weakness as Putin is ,this encourage them to be more hostile with Russia ,more agressive and do things they will not normally dare to do to unless they were completely sure ,that Putin is a chicken coward and will do nothing about it and will turn the other cheek if attacked. He is responsible of many kidnappings of russian citizens and the sacrifice of russian military lives for ill advice policies and Russia have in the world ,to pretend it can properly protect any nation, with their very limited economy ,but they can't. Putin also is responsible for many wars , we witness today ,for encouraging allies to join Russia club ,making them a target to hit by NATO . none of this wars we see in middle east will happen if putin keep his noses away from middle east trying to influence third world nations. on top that an idiot that cut the budget of Russia space program in half ,to fund stupid bullshit olympics projects don't deserve to be president of Russia.He is a traitor for his incompetence and holding power forever.  i could write a book of everything wrong with Putin and how his lack of leadership ,lack of long term vision for Russia in this very unfriendly world for nations that wants to be independent and defend people interest,is a national security big problem for Russia. Don't think he is the worse president ever , gorvashev was worse ,but still he is a huge problem and what cause Russia economic and development paralysis for no other thing that his lack of vision and leadership. His attachment to the past ,to "the good old days" of Russia , and his addiction to lazy fat gas stations business industry is what holds back Russia in the world , to earn the respect they want. but think they could get it,
if they ask politely for it..  


The only good little things ,little steps Putin's Russia is doing to influence the world away of
a global dictatorship orbit  is their space program, the same one that was cut in half its budget by that idiot while wasting 65 billions $ USD in olympic bullshit bragging non sense ,that in no way will help Russia counter the western domination in the world. only china is challenging for real the current world unfair order ,lead by the west through their high tech business lead and alliances they make.  

in other news , now positive but somehow too little ,too late..
a nice video of angara launch.



Interestingly the video was promoted in youtube by a western channel because the lack
of promotion in english language , that exist from Russia is another issue.

Good riddance. The Yenisei rocket was a monument to waste.

Khrunichev designed the Angara to replace both Proton and Soyuz to begin with. There is no need for a 2nd rocket design let alone a 3rd rocket design.
These multiple Soyuz designs are just shadows of the typical Energia duplication of work.
There is no need for another launcher. Just to improve production rate of Angara. A single core can substitute the small launchers. A triple core can replace Soyuz. A penta core can replace Proton.
As simple as that.

Only problem is, Russia just spent a fortune making a Soyuz pad at Vostochny Cosmodrome and the Angara pad is nowhere in sight. Also Soyuz is launched by Arianespace in South America.
Sure you can launch Angara from Plesetsk. With a reduced payload because of the latitude.
So Soyuz refuses to die.

lancelot wrote:Good riddance. The Yenisei rocket was a monument to waste.

Khrunichev designed the Angara to replace both Proton and Soyuz to begin with. There is no need for a 2nd rocket design let alone a 3rd rocket design.
These multiple Soyuz designs are just shadows of the typical Energia duplication of work.
There is no need for another launcher. Just to improve production rate of Angara. A single core can substitute the small launchers. A triple core can replace Soyuz. A penta core can replace Proton.
As simple as that.

Only problem is, Russia just spent a fortune making a Soyuz pad at Vostochny Cosmodrome and the Angara pad is nowhere in sight. Also Soyuz is launched by Arianespace in South America.
Sure you can launch Angara from Plesetsk. With a reduced payload because of the latitude.
So Soyuz refuses to die.

Angara can't deliver heavy payloads which means that without Yenisei Russia will be stuck in low Earth orbit same as now which they could have done with Soyuz-2 and Proton without wasting additional money

Reason why they have both Soyuz and Angara is because military requires two different launchers for their payloads which are either light or medium size

Angara will not be able to deliver any meaningful payload beyond low Earth orbit so if Russia wants do accomplish anything in space they will need Yenisei

Angara will not be able to deliver any meaningful payload beyond low Earth orbit so if Russia wants do accomplish anything in space they will need Yenisei

can't they just develop an upsized Angara like the propsed A7?

PapaDragon wrote:

Angara will not be able to deliver any meaningful payload beyond low Earth orbit so if Russia wants do accomplish anything in space they will need Yenisei

Ангара-А5В - GSO Payload ~7 Tons

Delta IV Heavy - GSO Payload ~14 Tons

Ангара-А7 - GSO Payload should be ~12 Tons

And you are saying "it will not be able to deliver anything meaningful beyond low Earth orbit"???

AMK wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Angara will not be able to deliver any meaningful payload beyond low Earth orbit so if Russia wants do accomplish anything in space they will need Yenisei

Ангара-А5В - GSO Payload ~7 Tons

Delta IV Heavy - GSO Payload ~14 Tons

Ангара-А7 - GSO Payload should be ~12 Tons

And you are saying "it will not be able to deliver anything meaningful beyond low Earth orbit"???

Angara-A7 doesn't exist

Yes, it will not deliver anything meaningful beyond Earth orbit

Even most optimistic estimates for lunar mission with Angara-A5 say that it would require 3 separate launches with orbital assembly, it's a clustefuck

Angara exists because military says it needs it, everything else is just Rogozin trying to make himself look not retarded

As posted by Garry elsewhere, one can go to the Moon and Jupiter by assembling a spacecraft from modules in LEO.
The A5 can deliver over 25 tons to LEO. So five shots give you a spacecraft with 150 tons. That ain't too shabby.

And we see here the usual peanut gallery Dunning-Kruger effect. Building ginormous rockets to launch spacecraft
on inertial flights to Mars and beyond is obsolete given the development by Russia of viable
nuclear propulsion for interplanetary missions.

The Saturn V could deliver 49 tons to TLI. A nuclear powered tug could pull its full 140 ton payload into TLI at the
expense of time. So three Angara A5 launches into LEO can deliver the same payload as the Saturn V for any Moon
mission assuming a 25 ton nuclear tug.

lancelot wrote:...and the Angara pad is nowhere in sight.

Not sure if you just plain stupid or if you are a deliberate liar     I suppose the pictures and images of the Angara pad build progress are all Kremlin propaganda?



BTW they built a Soyuz pad at Vostochny because despite its long legacy it is still a perfectly fit-for-purpose launcher which most nations around the globe would be happy to operate.  They didn't build an Angara pad because when they broke ground back in 2011 the Angara hadn't even flown yet.  They needed a national civilian launch fcaility to supercede Baikonour, so what pad should they have built?  Hypergolic Proton?  Ukropistani Zenit?  

Write stupid shit like this and you'll get tagged as being a moron.  Don't blame the messenger, just take a good look in the mirror.

GarryB wrote:To be honest I think multiple smaller rockets make rather more sense than a really really big one.

SHLVs are only really needed if launching massive mono-structures like a 100 ton central hub for a very large station complex, but such payloads are going to be very rare and mega-expensive, and their frequency of launch would be exceedingly low. The SHLV-related manufactiring and launch infrastructure will stand idle for 99% of the time, not ideal from the point of keeping the workforce engaged and their skills maintained.

While a 3-launch mission for a manned lunar landing might seem rather sub-optimal, the advantage is that the technique is infinately scalable to larger vehicle assemblies for more difficult missions. Instead of a 3-launch misison to the Moon, how about a 5-launch mission to Mars including a nuclear plasma engine stage? Does anyone really think that a future Mars mission is going to be a launch of a single integrated spacecraft on one massive SLHV???? (*)

(*) Muskian groupies and their StarShip delerium notwithstanding...

kvs wrote:As posted by Garry elsewhere, one can go to the Moon and Jupiter by assembling a spacecraft from modules in LEO.
The A5 can deliver over 25 tons to LEO.   So five shots give you a spacecraft with 150 tons.   That ain't too shabby.

And we see here the usual peanut gallery Dunning-Kruger effect.   Building ginormous rockets to launch spacecraft
on inertial flights to Mars and beyond is obsolete given the development by Russia of viable
nuclear propulsion for interplanetary missions.  

The Saturn V could deliver 49 tons to TLI.   A nuclear powered tug could pull its full 140 ton payload into TLI at the
expense of time.   So three Angara A5 launches into LEO can deliver the same payload as the Saturn V for any Moon
mission assuming a 25 ton nuclear tug.  

Why is it taboo to talk about LEO assembly of interplanetary or lunar spacecraft in most space technology discourse(both russian and western), when orbital assembly has been happening with space stations for 3 decades now? Everyone wants larger, more expensive launch vehicles, instead of multiple smaller serially produced ones...

Even most optimistic estimates for lunar mission with Angara-A5 say that it would require 3 separate launches with orbital assembly, it's a clustefuck

How is that bad?

limb wrote:

Even most optimistic estimates for lunar mission with Angara-A5 say that it would require 3 separate launches with orbital assembly, it's a clustefuck

How is that bad?

Because it triples number of things that can go wrong, makes planning of any mission a colossal pain in the ass, eats too much time and if you thing that is bad just imagine how hard anything beyond moon would be

It's halfassed solution born of technical shortcomings

kvs wrote:As posted by Garry elsewhere, one can go to the Moon and Jupiter by assembling a spacecraft from modules in LEO.
The A5 can deliver over 25 tons to LEO.   So five shots give you a spacecraft with 150 tons.   That ain't too shabby.

And we see here the usual peanut gallery Dunning-Kruger effect.   Building ginormous rockets to launch spacecraft
on inertial flights to Mars and beyond is obsolete given the development by Russia of viable
nuclear propulsion for interplanetary missions.  

The Saturn V could deliver 49 tons to TLI.   A nuclear powered tug could pull its full 140 ton payload into TLI at the
expense of time.   So three Angara A5 launches into LEO can deliver the same payload as the Saturn V for any Moon
mission assuming a 25 ton nuclear tug.  

All this cancellations of heavy payload carriers is consequence of the biggest traitor of all ,
vladimir putin , that cut in half the russian space budget a couple years ago and remains that way.
While rogozing is not an engineer and that position will be under normal scenario better for doctors in science and rocket technology , at the same time , is very positive that Rogozing bring to the public ,because of his annoyance with putin mediocre support for the space program ,things and scandals that are happening inside the space program ,that you will now know if there was a YES man in that position.

Rogozin exposed putin mediocre support , by openly saying quote " They want us to be competitive
with Americans and chinense space program ,but with 1/20 of their budget. "  and this caused him to be reprimanded by medvedev  for telling the truth of the state of russian space program. He also exposed internal sabotage happening in russia space program and the very low salaries to those
that works in roscosmos ,assembling rockets. they earn what will be called minimum salary in the west for building rockets to the moon.   All this things , damage the moral of people who work in
Russia space industry and many will leave because of putin mediocre support for Russia space program.

Russian Cosmonaut Resigns Space Station Command for 'Better Job  

A veteran Russian cosmonaut who was assigned to command the International Space Station in 2015 has unexpectedly resigned.

Cosmonaut Yuri Lonchakov tendered his resignation to the Russian federal space agency, Roscosmos, on Thursday (Sept. 5). Russian news agencies, quoting the head of the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center, reported Lonchakov will be "formally discharged" on Sept. 14.

"He came and told me that he had found a better job than working in space," Sergei Krikalev, the training center's chief and the current record holder for most time in space by any human, told the Interfax news service. "Frankly, we were counting on him because he was not just in the unit, [but] he was assigned to a crew."  

https://www.space.com/22674-cosmonaut-resigns-space-station-command.html


He later told he resigned because quote "there was nothing to do there " ,and the government
had other priorities.

so clearly this are not conspiracy theories ,another cosmonaut also resigned too for same reasons.
So there is a major crisis happening in Russia space program and putin is the one to blame for it ,
because he is the one who assigns the money for the space program and he is the one that cut the budget in half of roscosmos ,after he waste $60 billions in sports olympics in russia ,trying to convince the world ,russia is not an oudated nation ,which i agree , but what is completely outdated
is his presidency and mediocre leadership and he is causing a lot of damage to Russia image in the world ,not only in space ,but in the military too , by trying to behave like if russia was the soviet union ,but without supporting properly their allies.

So Rogozin complained openly and cried and noone listened him ,so he was likely forced to cut the
super heavy carrier program ,for lack of funds.. and made an excuse for cancelling it, other wise
he will have to blame putin for the cancellation of their energia program. because he is the one that more damage have done to Russia space program ,with his mediocre vision of the way Russia should
develop , that give priorities for gas stations pipelines dependence ,for a business that no longer good or worth of it ,by how cheap is today energy and for the political climate too in the world.  

He was asking the russian government for money and got nothing and this is the reason why
russia from the a leadership position in space , moved to a third place after US and China.  
and this is putin to blame for this and no one else.

To wait for conditions to be perfect ,is a mistake , is the NEED for something ,what creates things..
they should have made that super heavy cargo rocket and get the money for it ,by kicking putin from power ,and by selling for scrap metal all those olympic stadiums to china and are complete total waste of money ,specially post covid times . because this man made engineered pandemics will not end anytime soon ,but will be a new reality of every day ,for the rest of our generation and the only way to improve nation security is cancel that very same thing putin was promoting , russia as a tourist super power. but unfortunately the west is too smart and putin like always underestimate his enemies and have been check mated his economy in every area that putin invested. agriculture ,tourism and even their military weapon industry will find problems to sell air defenses in the future after their horrible performance in armenia war.

It appears that the "demise" of Yenisei is just hyperbole... Vann7s premature euology nonwithstanding....

Roscosmos and RCC "Progress" signed a contract for the technical design of a super-heavy rocket

https://tass.ru/kosmos/10276509

MOSCOW, December 16. / TASS /. Roskosmos has signed a contract with the Progress Rocket and Space Center for the amount of 1.47 billion rubles for the technical design of a super-heavy class rocket complex and the development of its key elements, according to the materials of the contract posted on the government procurement website.

According to the terms of reference, the space rocket complex should include six oxygen-kerosene rocket units with RD-171MV engines - the first stages of Soyuz-5 rockets and a central oxygen-kerosene rocket unit with an RD-180MV engine - the first stage “Soyuz-6”. In addition, it should have an oxygen-kerosene accelerating-braking unit based on two 11D58M liquid-propellant rocket engines.

So the (Soyuz-5 based) Yenisei is still proceeding (good) and Angara is still being considered for manned lunar missions?  

Now, where did I put that crystal ball....

Russia has chosen the path that the USSR could have chosen if it was not run by ego-monkey red directors.
The URM type modular rocket approach. The Yanisei is going to follow the same modular manufacturing approach
as the Angara. Russia is replacing the Yuzhmash built RD-170 Zenit rockets with its own new variants with
basically the same engines and payload but intended for modularity and assembly into super variants of the
A5. This way Russia does not have to build a rocket that gets used once in a decade (at best) and can mass
produce Zenit type modules for use in its new Sea Launch, etc.

Big_Gazza wrote:It appears that the "demise" of Yenisei is just hyperbole...  Vann7s premature euology nonwithstanding....  

Roscosmos and RCC "Progress" signed a contract for the technical design of a super-heavy rocket

https://tass.ru/kosmos/10276509

MOSCOW, December 16. / TASS /. Roskosmos has signed a contract with the Progress Rocket and Space Center for the amount of 1.47 billion rubles for the technical design of a super-heavy class rocket complex and the development of its key elements, according to the materials of the contract posted on the government procurement website.

According to the terms of reference, the space rocket complex should include six oxygen-kerosene rocket units with RD-171MV engines - the first stages of Soyuz-5 rockets and a central oxygen-kerosene rocket unit with an RD-180MV engine - the first stage “Soyuz-6”. In addition, it should have an oxygen-kerosene accelerating-braking unit based on two 11D58M liquid-propellant rocket engines.

So the (Soyuz-5 based) Yenisei is still proceeding (good) and Angara is still being considered for manned lunar missions?  

Now, where did I put that crystal ball....

and this goes back to the first issue ,
the lack of funding that russia government and putin have for their top most important industry after military. Look at japan ,they are not popular for winning many olympic medals ever in any sport.
but the entire world recognize japan as a top technology leader ,who have its own space program ,
(just landed on a meteor recently) who have their own military industry ,and basically do everything
russia can do and with superior quality electronics and technology ,without exporting a single gas or oil . since they don't have energy to export.. So is the backwards thinking of Russian politics ,what
cause all this problems and caused delays and resignations of cosmonauts.  

If putin had any brains for the future ,he will label space domain and space related business ,their nation top security priority and fuck sports and fuck his over spending in pretty parks and in pretty churches .. and instead invest where more russia can benefit , which is their space industry and combine roscosmos project with their space military force , so if they do any new rocket ,that the military can also use it..I for example will have build a very huge space shuttle ,3x times bigger buran space shuttle , and build it from zero as a dual purpose ,for civilian space exploration AND as a military space nuclear bomber armed with hypersonic missiles with a nuclear warhead ,to bring down any nation warships carriers and their escorts warships in a minute or two.Thats how real deterrence look like.  ,also ideal for deploying space stations or laser weapons in space .. because waiting for the west to do it first and gain a decade or more head start is a big mistake. and push heavily in space explorations and space tourism ,by offering orbits to the moon. but before doing that ,they need to think BIG and be very ambitious ,as american
are in space.. that now have 5-6 companies aside of nasa in a race for moon and mars.. This is what
forward  looking nations do , to lead in space for civilian and military , you need to invest for it properly. China wants to lead in semiconductors ,and invested 1 trillion dollars $USD on that industry ,  this is how you think in big..  Russia have wasted many $$ trillions dollars in pipelines and in researching the artic for outdated energy like oil. where russia need to push is on free energy ,solar energy ,nuclear safe energy , and end their dependence on oil economy forever and bring down those terrorist nations ,who use their oil ,to finance terrorism or to wage wars around russia
for pipelines projects as it was the case of armenia vs azerbaijan war.

long terms decisions in Russia space program ,happens by the minute , and change by the minute.
and change again by the minute , look how they first wanted soyuz 5 , but then moved to angara ,
and will change again. .all this indecision happens for the lack of funding , force them to take big compromises and not properly develop their space program ,because all this also cause delays ,
and damage the motivation of russia scientific and engineer community.

instead of choosing all of them . why not produce both at same time ,soyuz5 by one team ,and angara by another and energia by another? This huge investment is nothing in comparison to how much russia invested in their stupid olympics.. so there is a lot of money in russia ,that always show up ,for stupid things.. if you consider that russia space budget is 2 billions dollars $$ per year ,and they wasted 30x times that ammount from 2010 to 2020 , in stupid olympic avenues.. then you will see is a problem of priorities ,a problem of leadership ,that don't understand what really can benefit
more russia in the longest term. since nobody remembers who won what in sochi 2014.. but everyone in the world including americans and british knows who is Yuri Gagarin . the first man in space. This is a crime what putin is doing ,in not moving russia economy towards very advanced
development , as space and high tech industry is,and this is not about epenis bragging ,but about
russia becoming truly independent nation of the west. INDEPENDENCE this is the most important
thing ,to end Russia dependence on the western technology and to show the world it can lead
in development of humanity in space. This is what will accelerate the end of the unilateral system
and promote more faster a multipolar world , something will benefit everyone including the west ,
because cooperation and not wars will become the norm.

Russia need to follow the example of china , that is leading these days in space,
with their moon mission , and promoting it ,in english language for western viewers.
so sad putin is not paying attention and choosing to develop
russia economy as if it was venezuela.. a commodities base economy ,instead of innovating and creating new business opportunities as china is doing with advance technology and space.

Chinese people should feel very proud of their government ,they gets A+ in promotion and
future development.