Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

Daniel_Admassu wrote:I am fairly certain that Putin is not maintaining a secret stash of billions but was awaiting for the second launch of the Angara from plesetsk when this news of a soyuz launch came. Those defense ministry guys certainly don't talk much about what they do, do they?

Not much these days. After after new law regarding keeping military transactions a secret was approved, it's gonna get harder.

The good thing is Plesetsk has an incredible record in launch successes. However the never ending delay with Angara is becoming increasingly hard to justify. They test launched the A5 years ago. I understand that this time it will be integrated with a different upper stage (I think Briz-M) but that is not reason enough to launch with a dummy again. At least they could load it with a domestic payload like some geostationary weather satellite.

Daniel_Admassu wrote:The good thing is Plesetsk has an incredible record in launch successes. However the never ending delay with Angara is becoming increasingly hard to justify. They test launched the A5 years ago. I understand that this time it will be integrated with a different upper stage (I think Briz-M) but that is not reason enough to launch with a dummy again. At least they could load it with a domestic payload like some geostationary weather satellite.

The vehicles launched in 2014 were prototypes for design certification and were essentially hand-built one-offs made at Khrunishev in Moscow.  The serial units were to be built in a new production unit in Omsk and at that time they had barely broken ground. The 6 year delay since prototype launch and 1st serial unit is fully explained by the time required to start up a new rocket production unit in Siberia, develop serial production procedures, and train an all-new workforce.

Typically however, Russia's perennial detractors insist on attributing the delay to Russians being incompetent & corrupt, the Russian gov lacking money, and the Angara to be now obselete due to "Musks innovation" (which mud-hut dwellers can't possibly duplicate or compete against...). Don't buy into their propaganda bullshit.

Well of course the Omsk plant has been in preparation for some time now and that is where the future of the Angara is. I am not informed enough to say whether its construction and staff training is delayed or not. Some delay I suppose is reasonable for the setup of such a new plant and process.
However if I remember correctly the Moscow plant produced the first few URM modules required for two or three A5 launches. Considering the urgency of replacing the Proton they should have fast tracked the Angara program. Same with Vostochny.
Regarding SpaceX I tend to believe that it got more than a headstart with all the NASA tech handover along with unfair payload contracts. But you have to give it to the guy for pacing things up while making everything seem hip and marketable. Just look at the crew dragon with its four person crew and sleek controls and automated docking. Of course western media would tell you that all of this was done for the first time. Nevertheless it all means that Russia also needs to up its game and move on from its Soviet legacy. Also a bold new program beyond satellite launches like planetary exploration wouldn't hurt. I think Russia can afford that. Even China is making the moon voyage look like a run to the grocers.

Just look at the crew dragon with its four person crew and sleek controls and automated docking.

Automated docking was standard on Mir... the Soyuz cargo ships have automatic docking options... one time they tried a manual dock and they had a collision because that particular ship was overloaded and it came in too fast and ended up hitting the station...

So really a four person crew is the height of their achievement... which is impressive... even more so when you add that they went from buying seats to get into space from a hate rival to being able to send four of their people at a time to the space station and it appears a miraculous save... he is really pulling their balls out of the fire... but it is not ground breaking... what they are doing now is not something that has never been done before, and the enormous subsidies and support he has been getting would make any half arse amateur look good for a while.

His real problem is that as a flashy car salesman the next one has to be better than the last... so he is going to end up writing cheques his ass cannot cash... I hope no one dies because of it...

“I’d say six years from now, highly confident [that humans will travel to Mars]. If we get lucky, maybe four years, and then we’re going to try and send an uncrewed vehicle there in two years,” Musk said.

https://www.rt.com/news/508463-musk-spacex-mars-humans-spaceship/

But of course he does not share my fears over human life...

“I want to emphasise that this is a very hard and dangerous, difficult thing, not for the faint of heart… [There’s a] good chance you’ll die. It's going to be tough-going, but it’ll be pretty glorious if it works out,” he said.

"Automated docking was standard on Mir... the Soyuz cargo ships have automatic docking options... "

Of course and that is obviously what I was talking about. The Kurs docking mechanism has been standard for all Energia craft since forever. However during the first manned dragon mission all western outlets were yapping about it like a newly available alien tech.
The funny thing is after the Ukraine crisis Russia had to replace this mechanism with its own indigenous one and they did it without breaking a sweat. It tells you that they can redesign the whole flight program and spacecraft if they wanted to. I understand the logic of not fixing anything unless it is broken but a lot of the time innovation comes with change.
I know Russia is right now endeavoring on the long term with vostochny and the angara program and that is a good thing. It will take time. But we have to understand that the space industry differs vastly for each country. Elon musk is riding the corrupt capitalist setup and huge NASA budget he found himself in. China considers catching up on space milestones a priority prestige project and spares no funds. So does India. I sometimes think that Russia is lost between these two. Unless it shapes up an identity for itself now, it risks falling behind in the next decades. That is a shame because currently it has a lead in all the critical technologies, automated docking being but one.

I know Russia is right now endeavoring on the long term with vostochny and the angara program and that is a good thing. It will take time. But we have to understand that the space industry differs vastly for each country. Elon musk is riding the corrupt capitalist setup and huge NASA budget he found himself in. China considers catching up on space milestones a priority prestige project and spares no funds. So does India. I sometimes think that Russia is lost between these two. Unless it shapes up an identity for itself now, it risks falling behind in the next decades. That is a shame because currently it has a lead in all the critical technologies, automated docking being but one.

Space is a huge money pit that you can piss trillions of dollars away very easily and can end up with very little.

I could care less who got to the Moon or Mars first, I am more interested in examining conditions on Venus a neglected planet... and also maintaining Russias satellite network in earth orbit. Rushing to send men to Mars is stupid right now because propulsion systems make it difficult and much more dangerous than better propulsion systems could make it.

When climbing Mount Everest they didn't just chuck on a pack and start climbing... there were thousands of support people forming bases all the way up the mountain with supplies for going up and coming down for the few that actually reached the summit. It would make sense to assemble something in orbit made of multiple rockets assembled like an Angara model, but some sort of sustainer propulsion that accelerated and decelerated all the way would make conditions more tolerable because it would effectively create a sort of micro gravity...

Recall that in 2001, the Mir station was de-orbited and flooded in the ocean. At that time, it served in orbit for 15 years, which can be considered a fairly short period for an orbital station. It was officially announced about "obsolete equipment". At the same time, it was added that Russia cannot maintain the Mir station due to lack of funding.

I do remember, and I also remember it was only intended to operate for 8-10 years so it actually operated long beyond its planned life span... unlike the amazing US space station.... Skylab... Mir was pretty much the modular design basis of the current ISS... which is in many ways MIR 2. Russia certainly didn't have the money to keep it in orbit and the only reason it stayed in orbit as long as it did was because the US was very very keen to get experience in a real space station.... they had only had real experience of going up for up to a week at a time on their shuttles and then coming back down.

There was an interesting story from a US astronaut that went up with the first groups of US personel to Mir and he said he was told by the Russians taht after 3 months you lose a lot of muscle mass because without gravity you can push your self around the space station with your little finger... in fact humans designed for space would have four hands instead of two hands and two feet because feet are largely useless... grabbing and pushing off from things is easier with your hands... in fact for crew going to fly to mars that will stay in an orbiter vehicle should be people with no legs... it is just wasted mass and actually gets in the way more often than is useful by making you twice as long as you need to be.

Anyway this american said they were told that 3 months in space and they will be weak and will need assistance when they land back on the ground and he said quietly to himself then that he would follow the superior US training and exercise regime and eat the superior food and when he landed he was going to unstrap himself and stand up and show these Russians what a real astronaut can do. Well... he said he did more than the exercises suggested, and was very careful what food he ate and then when three months he landed back to earth and when he went to remove his strap he found he could not lift his own arm.

He said he felt ashamed... if the cold war had not ended and they had decided to go to Mars, US astronauts probably would have been too weak to do anything and probably would have died after almost two years in space to get there... in fact they likely would have broken bones on the landing just under the g force because muscles weaken but bones also are stripped of their calcium by the body because without gravity it thinks it does not need strong bones any more and uses it for other things...

This was all in a documentary I saw in the late 1990s but I suspect such an anti American and pro Russian doco would be buried these days in the current climate.... it had all sorts of interesting things, like the fact that the Soviet/Russian toilet on Mir was much better and easier to use than the one on the shuttle so when the shuttle was docked to Mir they used the space stations toilet. Also Soviet/Russian space suits were much better... much easier to put on. Essentially the backpack opened up like a door, which you put your feet and arms and head in from the rear, the backpack door was then closed and sealed and the seals were all checked on the joints... the parts are all rigid for operations in a vaccuum... it took about 40 minutes to put it on and do all the necessary checks... the American space suit took about 7 hours to put on and each section/joint was a separate piece that is assembled and the seals checked when on....

Such things will be lost in time because the new American toilets and space suits will be based on Soviet technology... just like their rocket engines.

Posts about Musk toys moved to Musk thread...

https://www.russiadefence.net/t3448p200-us-launch-vehicles-and-spacecraft-discussion-news#304755

thegopnik wrote:https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=0&nid=542996&lang=RU

"Moscow. December 10. INTERFAX-AVN - The head of Roscosmos, Dmitry Rogozin, called the statement of US Vice President Michael Pence about American leadership in space strange..

Oh just shut the fuck up already, you fat flat-earther moron

You proven your retard credentials long ago, no need to show off

If you can't be useful then at least keep your gob shut stop doing more damage

'Successful Explosive Crashes' aside, I never really understood the Starship concept. Is such relatively small single stage chemical rocket supposed to go on a trip to Mars, come back and land? Or is it a small scale demonstrator for now?

He was responding to an idiot... something I agree he does do too often, but in this case I think everyone can agree Pence is a fool.

'Successful Explosive Crashes' aside, I never really understood the Starship concept. Is such relatively small single stage chemical rocket supposed to go on a trip to Mars, come back and land? Or is it a small scale demonstrator for now?

That was shifted to another thread, by all means continue to discuss, but with the videos in the relevant place:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t3448p200-us-launch-vehicles-and-spacecraft-discussion-news#304755

MOSCOW, December 11 - RIA Novosti. Roscosmos has signed a contract worth 4.2 billion rubles for the development of a preliminary design of the nuclear space tug Nuclon for flights to the Moon, Jupiter and Venus, follows from the materials of the state corporation posted on the public procurement website .
https://ria.ru/20201211/kosmos-1588827682.html

Lecture on the history of Russian nuclear space energy development. Speech from 06:05, you need to know Russian.

Brief facts:
1. Beryllium radiation protection.
2. Helium-xenon mixture of the cooling circuit.
3. Unique molybdenum-niobium monocrystalline fuel elements.
4. Maximum heating temperatures of 2000 degrees.

Holy.F**king.Sh*t

Roskosmos told about the development of the latest spacecraft
Today
371
1 min.
Roskosmos told about the development of the latest spacecraft
If you read our media, you get the impression that Musk is about to build his Strship, and our "Eagle" will remain on paper. Do you know why? Because Musk's prototype exploded, but nothing exploded at Roscosmos.

Well, yes, you say, of course, if there is nothing to explode, then it does not explode. With Musk, everything is clear, he is a genius, because if his development has taken off, then he is great, he is working. That is, it has something to explode, so it explodes. Sometimes it seems that Musk is doing this on purpose in order to remind himself once again, and to attract new investors under the guise.

Okay, I don’t want to discuss Musk’s brainchild here, I think they will soon forget about him, as they have already forgotten about Hyperloop. I'm talking about "Eagle".

In fact, work is underway on it. It's just that the media don't write about it, who cares if nothing exploded? Who will read this? Now, if it exploded ...

Meanwhile

Specialists of the Russian Space Systems Holding (RKS, part of the ROSCOSMOS State Corporation) have successfully tested the first experimental rescued data storage device SZI-2 for the promising reusable manned spacecraft Orel. The device performs a function similar to the black box in aviation.
...
Unlike the previous version of the SZI-M, which is installed on the Soyuz-MS spacecraft, in the SZI-2 the storage capacity has been increased from 4 to 96 GB. At the same time, due to the use of modern materials, the weight of the drive has decreased from 9.5 to 7.2 kg. The device is capable of withstanding impact on the ground at speeds up to 150 m / s and does not melt for 30 minutes at temperatures up to 700 ° C.
And, by the way, the module is made using exclusively domestic component base.

But this is not all, of course, otherwise you will say that, they say, only a "black box" was done. No, NPO IT has also developed the KSZI-2 control and operational equipment. At the moment, preliminary tests have been completed on it, five sets of equipment have been manufactured and delivered to RSC Energia.

Of course, this is not the whole list, just from these examples you can see that work on a new spacecraft is underway, otherwise some people think that it is still only on paper and in the form of a layout. In fact, there is a systematic, routine and rather boring development. This is Musk's show with fireworks, but we at Roscosmos are just working, according to the schedule, methodically creating new systems of the future spacecraft.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/sdelanounas.ru/v-roskosmose-rasskazali-o-hode-razrabotki-noveishego-kosmicheskogo-korablia-5fd3c79f9480ec78dcd5edf4

The new Russian space station will be able to operate indefinitely:
https://ria.ru/20201212/kosmos-1588873186.html