Extremism and Terrorism in Russia

The same fight as is going on around the world – the differences between them, is fermented by MOSSAD and the West.

Extremist of any persuasion are dangerous.

Kysusha wrote:The same fight as is going on around the world – the differences between them, is fermented by MOSSAD and the West.

Extremist of any persuasion are dangerous.

If they were being fermented by Mossad and the West; I sorta think that the GRU and FSB would have caught on by now, and we would be slap bang in the middle of the Cold War again.

Kysusha wrote:

Who is behind the disinformation and discrediting of Putin?

Mostly Russians not happy with him and his boys?

Plenty of Russians are not happy with the thieves in office, they don't need the West to orchestrate anything.

And sadly this is not some big conspiracy, this is human nature...

You can see the same in the US where Congress would rather vote against things that would actually help a lot of hurting American citizens because if they voted for it and it worked then it might make the other political party look good.

In other words they would rather continue to have a bad economy and high unemployment and have Americans suffering just to make Obama or whomever is in power look bad... gambling that when their guy gets into power that the other side wont have a majority and do the same to them.

The result that Obama or Bush or whomever looks bad so Americans will continue to suffer while they are in office would be more frustrating to me than to find a bit of corruption and Putin and his mates making hay while the sun shined... because at least the sun is shining and if you are prepared to play the game you can make Hay too.

The US position is that no one can make hay because we resent that we are not the political party in power...

Whats your view on dealing with terrorists in Russia, the CIS, infact anywhere in the World?

I'm personally thinking with particular emphasis on Chechnya, Ingusheta and Dagestan.

My view is that what we are experiencing is ethnic cleansing by Muslims. Their sole aim is to terrorise Russians into leaving the area. Then they will say "we are all Muslim/Wahhabist" etc and then claim they are "owed" independence. Just like that pondlife bunch of Islam-nuts did in Kosovo.

These people think they can hold non Muslims hostage and that their actions will succeed. Infact, look how the proportion of Christians has tumbled as a result of their actions. Much like it has with Russians in the central/western areas of the Ukraine.

My view on how to deal with it.

I think its a complete myth that terrorists are a "tiny minority". In the 2 Chechen wars, vast numbers of maniacs fought a country as powerful as Russia. The Chechen wars were a mass act of terrorism by the Muslims. This means that strong steps are necessary.

I would take these steps.
1)Make it clear that the Caususes will never be allowed independence.
2)The Muslimification of these areas ie ethnic cleansing, intimidation and harrassment of non Muslims
was a crime against humanity. Therefore any claims that "we're mostly Muslim" are invalid, for the purposes of indepoence either now or at any pt in the future.
3)Accordingly, these areas need to be put under "special control".
That means restrictions on movement of Muslims in these areas AND around Russia. Likewise restrictions on import of any goods. If Muslims dont like it, well hard luck. They should give up their terrorists without question. Organised crime and terrorism amongst ethnic groups are NEVER separated by much. And organised crime is often pretty close to the general population.
4)Certain Muslim states can be trusted. Kazakstan isnt a problem, Azerbaijan isnt, likewise with much of the CIS. Certain states, it is a grey area. This dictates how these states can be dealt with.
5)Vast numbers of Russians were killed in the 2 Chechen wars. Make life easy for these maniacs, and another Caucuses war can be expected. The only thing they respect is pure force.
6)Terrorism is similar to a disease like cancer. The treatment should be to separate it from the rest of the body. The moment these maniacs cant mix with Christians, is the moment their cowardly power disappears.
7)Innocent people shouldnt have to pay for the work. It is the fault of the substantial number of separatist terrorists. So if it means spending money to separate the towns and cities in the Caucuses, then the bill should land on the heads of the Muslim fanatics and not the tolerant Russian/Christian population.

In some parts of the world, separatist groups actually have claims. However, the Muslim terrorist claim is nothing short of ridiculousness and cowardice.  Muslims and Christians fought for centuries. The starting point has to be the 20th century ie the beginning of the truly modern era. And this is the era that these places have gone from majority Christian, and Russian civilised, down to ethnically cleansed ie terrorist intimidation majority Muslim. Ethnic cleansing of Russians in their own country isnt acceptable. Imagine what would happen if the Christians in Pakistan demanded their own state!
Perhaps it is time for a Stalinist style resettlement of Muslim fanatics and those who support them?

With the emergence of drones, and modern weaponry, fortunately, I believe Russia has more options against this disease than it did when the 2 Chechen wars were ongoing.

The Russian army sure showed how "civilized" it is during the Chechen wars.

What a bad post. Have you ever actually lived in Russia, or are at all familiar with the issues in the country or the Kavkaz?

Ugh, forget it, I don't care.

TR1 wrote:The Russian army sure showed how "civilized" it is during the Chechen wars.

What a bad post. Have you ever actually lived in Russia, or are at all familiar with the issues in the country or the Kavkaz?

Ugh, forget it, I don't care.

Yes I have and am thankyou very much..

How do you expect Russian soldiers to behave when a part of Russia invades another part with the aim of the 2 to get independence?
Write a letter of complaint ? 

These problems didnt tend to happen in Soviet times..

Yes! What a bad post!

You made a strange comment before when I mentioned Muslim criminal gangs targetting Christians only in the Caucuses... ie suggesting that the hate crimes from Muslims on Christians werent hate crimes..

The overwhelming fact is that the Muslim actions of fanatics are causing the Caucuses to become partitioned and ethnically cleansed (a terrible phrase but anyway..).

So, Russia has the choice. Division of towns and areas on Russian terms or on Muslim fanatics terms.
I know which one I think is the best.

The alternative is that the Muslim population give up the large sleeping terrorist element. Except they dont want to..

But from your post, it seems you "dont care"....

My view on how to fight terrorism:

3 pronged-approach

a). State-sponsored infastructure & production investment into terrorist-infested areas; make it clear that there is an alternative, increased security presence around economical enterprises, government guarantees for foreign investors - match their money if they lose it as a result of political instability or terrorist/criminal activity. Tax-free zones for various enterprises and sectors. Lessening taxes and increasing subsidies for the local population, social spending on new housing/city infastructure/etc...

b). Intel, mass investment into information-gathering. Cameras in and around all population points, hidden surveillance equipment, high-res thermal cameras, ground radars at various high vantage points. A fleet of surveillance UAVs (unarmed; no need to terrorise ordinary people) coupled with a network of small bases for their maintance, infiltration of all major criminal networks in the Caucasus (many of which will have links to terrorists), hearts & minds campaign among all the locals in the trouble-spots, creation of a huge HUMINT network of informers and agents, minimise the time and maximise the easiness of reporting in suspicious activity, financial incentives, reliable law-enforcement and protection from possible reprisal attacks.

c). A gradual reduction in the expected life expectancy for a terrorist. From let's say several months, to several hours. With the improvements in intel above - it can be done. Targets positively identified through reliable HUMINT or a combination of other sources can be engaged with precision weaponry immediately; ground-launched cruise missiles, A2G missiles or guided bombs from tactical bombers or fighters, engagement by Ka-52s or Mi-28s (useful if further visual confirmation required, such helicopters have powerful optics and would be able to observe from range), or elimination by nearby MVD VV special operations teams, FSB or Spetsnaz; all of this couple with unnarmed UAVs for targetting and so on.

Firebird, besides losing some of your humanity and empathy for fellow human beings (yes, even those of a different ethnicity/religion/beliefs), you have also forgotten some history. Stalin already tried a draconian solution in regards to Chechnya. It was immensely effective; albeit it was performed after all resistance and the Nazi German armies were completely crushed anyway.

The trouble was that 50 years down the line it backfired.

flamming_python wrote:

Firebird, besides losing some of your humanity and empathy for fellow human beings (yes, even those of a different ethnicity/religion/beliefs), you have also forgotten some history. Stalin already tried a draconian solution in regards to Chechnya. It was immensely effective; albeit it was performed after all resistance and the Nazi German armies were completely crushed anyway.

The trouble was that 50 years down the line it backfired.

Re Stalin, well he was pretty psychotic towards a lot of people. But what were the other options? Massive civil war? Defeat by Hitler? He wasn't my favourite Russian leader. But he was the favoruite leader of many Russians I know, young and old. My own grandfather left Russia because of Stalin (and Ukrainian nationalists btw).

A very plausible solution may be the resettlement of groups who seek to terrorise the innocent.
The number of Russian deaths in the Chechen wars are truly incredible. Surely you dont want anything like that again? Surely keeping people alive (both sides) albeit with different environments is preferable to another war.

I was massively against the US invasion of Iraq and was critical of its (and NATO's) actions in many other places.
But this is different. This is terrorism on indisputably Russian soil.

Unfortunately, there is a terrorist, an evil mentality in some Muslims, as there is in some Westerners/Christians. This is why I separate CHechen maniacs and say, Azeris/Kazak Muslims.

I'm not advocating indiscriminate slaughter. I'm actually asking how we should prevent that.
So you can say that I've lost my humanity and empathy. I would say quite the opposite. Too many people say "Ahh Chechens wont kill me, I'm allright, I dont really care". And so the fanatics DO kill people.

You blame Stalin, but once fanatics have freedom to terrorise, they will terrorise.

I've got Muslim friends, and I even know people who have unsavoury views towards terrorism (or have had them in the past).

My point is that Russia didnt invade the Caucuses, or set out to exploit Muslims. Muslims set out to ethnically cleanse Christians and Russians. And that cannot be allowed. (I think it was TR1, and if it was, it was pretty shocking to try and defend Muslim attacks being ONLY on Christians on the grounds that "they were less likely to get caught")

Segregation is clearly happening in the Caucuses. It is the express aim of the fanatics. Unfortunately, we can see it is working.

Therefore my proposal is that the segregation is on Russian and not fanatics terms ie Chechnya and the Caucuses remain completely Russian. Ban the medieval interpretation of Islam and with any luck, the fanatics will disappear to Saudi Arabia.

Your other pts are v interesting. I'll comment on them later.

"My point is that Russia didnt invade the Caucuses, or set out to exploit Muslims. Muslims set out to ethnically cleanse Christians and Russians."


That is a very funny revisionism of history. Spoken like a true apparatchik.

Believe it or not most victims of crime in the Kavkaz are Muslims/ Native inhabitants.

Stop trying to frame this as some great Muslim Christian struggle.

If you want to get down to it the biggest cleanser of innocents in the Kavkaz has always been the Russian military. And no, it was NOT ever justified by mythical "Muslim cleansing".

It is clear from all your posts you have not spent one day in the region.

TR1 wrote:"My point is that Russia didnt invade the Caucuses, or set out to exploit Muslims. Muslims set out to ethnically cleanse Christians and Russians."


That is a very funny revisionism of history. Spoken like a true apparatchik.

Believe it or not most victims of crime in the Kavkaz are Muslims/ Native inhabitants.

Stop trying to frame this as some great Muslim Christian struggle.

If you want to get down to it the biggest cleanser of innocents in the Kavkaz has always been the Russian military. And no, it was NOT ever justified by mythical "Muslim cleansing".

It is clear from all your posts you have not spent one day in the region.

Well its abundantly clear from your posts that you have some sort of bias towards Islamists.
And that was illustrated when you tried to justify the Muslim decision to rob only Christians.

Sorry but "we wont get caught if we rob Christians" is NOT a defence to accusations of hate crime agains Christians.

1st I HAVE spent a (fortunately!)short while in the Caucuses. Beautiful place... complete fucking nightmare tho. And knowing a few soldiers who had the misfortune of serving there, I'd say my views were pretty accurately formed.

As for the accuracy of your views, I might as well speak to Bandar of Saudi Arabia...  

So you say Muslims are the victims not the aggressors? So who do you blame? The non- Muslims?
If so, thats even more ridiculous than the German/American Nazi that posts here.

Its not Muslim v Christian. Its a substantial number of the most fanatical Muslims vs Russians of the non Muslim variety.

You claim the Muslim cleansing of Russians is a myth?
Russian population of Chechnya in the 1950s? 50% Chechens 39%
Russian popln of Chechnya in 2010? 2% Chechens 95%
Looks a lot like ethnic cleansing to me. As does only robbing non Muslim homes, or setting up Sharia law, or blowing up kids on buses...

Chechnya only had Muslims in the first place because of invasions of i)The Golden Horde and ii)meddling by the equally obnoxious Ottomans. But ofcourse, you want to paint multi-religion Russia as the big bad monster...  

So lets get it right. You are defending the animals that do this sort of shit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov#Involvement_in_attacks_against_civilians

You think Russia should allow its citizens to be stolen  from it? And then forced under the tyranny of Wahhabist Sharia garbage? With public beheadings, compulsory burkas, beards and all that crap? And "non-believers" should run the risk of being blown up every day?

Moral of the story. If you didnt want the wrath of the Russian army, you shouldnt have had your fanatical friends from Chechnya attacking people left, right and centre. Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, the rest of Russia, oh and all the "infidels" in Chechnya (Russian, Ukrainian, Armenian etc) that you terrorised out of the Caucuses. Beneath, the surface, you're hardly any different  from the fanatics you pretend to distance yourself from..

Almost amusing really, if it wasnt so disgusting. You set out to say that there are hardly any fanatics in the Caucuses. And you let your guard down to prove that youre actually one yourself...

Moral of the story. If you didnt want the wrath of the Russian army, you shouldnt have had your fanatical friends from Chechnya attacking people left, right and centre. Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, the rest of Russia, oh and all the "infidels" in Chechnya (Russian, Ukrainian, Armenian etc) that you terrorised out of the Caucuses. Beneath, the surface, you're hardly any different  from the fanatics you pretend to distance yourself from..

Wait, TR1 is Chechen?

TR1 - I thought you were a hybrid Turk? Or part-Ingush?

flamming_python wrote:

Moral of the story. If you didnt want the wrath of the Russian army, you shouldnt have had your fanatical friends from Chechnya attacking people left, right and centre. Ingushetia, Ossetia, Dagestan, the rest of Russia, oh and all the "infidels" in Chechnya (Russian, Ukrainian, Armenian etc) that you terrorised out of the Caucuses. Beneath, the surface, you're hardly any different  from the fanatics you pretend to distance yourself from..

Wait, TR1 is Chechen?

TR1 - I thought you were a hybrid Turk? Or part-Ingush?

I am also a Jew, but only on Sundays.

Of course there are people who think Stalin was wonderful... for many of them he killed off all the competition... it is just like a very rich western person thinking democracy is great... it made them rich... of course it was great for them.

Personally I believe in a complete separation of religion and state...

But such a separation is heretical to Islam. Fighting for Islam/Muslims automatically means fighting for political power of the religion.

That's why even though most Chechens/Arabs/whatever are nice people, there will ALWAYS be people who think they're obligated to fight for theocracy with any means necessary.

Thus, ultimately, there are few options available if you want to defeat terrorism in Russia. The best one would be a simple, ruthless fight. Jail or kill all people engaged in terrorism, cut off funding from Gulf states. And no political correctness - a big no for whitewashing terrorist crimes against civilians, no for using your tolerance against you or for hiding behind the accusations of racism or islamophobia.

Of course things such as tolerance and multiculturalism are good but they have limits too - and they cannot be used by someone who'll have no use for them once they attain enough power.

As Sa'iqa wrote:But such a separation is heretical to Islam. Fighting for Islam/Muslims automatically means fighting for political power of the religion.

That's why even though most Chechens/Arabs/whatever are nice people, there will ALWAYS be people who think they're obligated to fight for theocracy with any means necessary.

Thus, ultimately, there are few options available if you want to defeat terrorism in Russia. The best one would be a simple, ruthless fight. Jail or kill all people engaged in terrorism, cut off funding from Gulf states. And no political correctness - a big no for whitewashing terrorist crimes against civilians, no for using your tolerance against you or for hiding behind the accusations of racism or islamophobia.

Of course things such as tolerance and multiculturalism are good but they have limits too - and they cannot be used by someone who'll have no use for them once they attain enough power.

I don't see why Russia should start persecuting people who have committed no crime; just for being Muslims - or whatever else.

That's not the sort of justice system that I want to see take hold in my country.
And I live here & pay my taxes - so I have a right to say.

Of course; monitor the people who are high-risk; suspected radicalized mosques, the people who go to them, and infiltrate crime networks among the seedy part of diaspora communities and so on - that all makes sense; and it can be performed without harming or repressing innocents.

It also goes for other ideologies that threaten Russia's territorial integrity, safety of its citizens, or safety of foreign citizens on its soil - such as Russian nationalism, fascism and local nationalist movements in various republics too.
Islamic terrorism is far from the only worry for Russia. In fact it may sooner or later be relegated to division two - and that's when the real problems will take hold.

TR1 wrote:"My point is that Russia didnt invade the Caucuses, or set out to exploit Muslims. Muslims set out to ethnically cleanse Christians and Russians."


That is a very funny revisionism of history. Spoken like a true apparatchik.

Believe it or not most victims of crime in the Kavkaz are Muslims/ Native inhabitants.

Stop trying to frame this as some great Muslim Christian struggle.

If you want to get down to it the biggest cleanser of innocents in the Kavkaz has always been the Russian military. And no, it was NOT ever justified by mythical "Muslim cleansing".

It is clear from all your posts you have not spent one day in the region.

Where did you learn that last one from? Kavkazcenter? No, Muslims have been terrorizing Russians for a very long time, prior to Russia going into north caucuses. And no, you dont have to spend a day there to know this fact.

Your views on this is pretty sick. So you support the acts of terrorism in Russia because of so called massacre of muslims by Russians? Pretty sick.

flamming_python wrote:

As Sa'iqa wrote:But such a separation is heretical to Islam. Fighting for Islam/Muslims automatically means fighting for political power of the religion.

That's why even though most Chechens/Arabs/whatever are nice people, there will ALWAYS be people who think they're obligated to fight for theocracy with any means necessary.

Thus, ultimately, there are few options available if you want to defeat terrorism in Russia. The best one would be a simple, ruthless fight. Jail or kill all people engaged in terrorism, cut off funding from Gulf states. And no political correctness - a big no for whitewashing terrorist crimes against civilians, no for using your tolerance against you or for hiding behind the accusations of racism or islamophobia.

Of course things such as tolerance and multiculturalism are good but they have limits too - and they cannot be used by someone who'll have no use for them once they attain enough power.

I don't see why Russia should start persecuting people who have committed no crime; just for being Muslims - or whatever else.

That's not the sort of justice system that I want to see take hold in my country.
And I live here & pay my taxes - so I have a right to say.

Of course; monitor the people who are high-risk; suspected radicalized mosques, the people who go to them, and infiltrate crime networks among the seedy part of diaspora communities and so on - that all makes sense; and it can be performed without harming or repressing innocents.

It also goes for other ideologies that threaten Russia's territorial integrity, safety of its citizens, or safety of foreign citizens on its soil - such as Russian nationalism, fascism and local nationalist movements in various republics too.
Islamic terrorism is far from the only worry for Russia. In fact it may sooner or later be relegated to division two - and that's when the real problems will take hold.

Read my post once again - and then reply.

No, I don't support institutionalized discrimination of Muslims, nor do I advocate threatening them, vandalizing their property, desecrating their religious sites or any other actions meant to humiliate them. As a libertarian I believe that every person has the right to live as they please - but the freedom of one person ends where the freedom of a second one begins.

Russian people still have shown remarkable restraint after being confronted with several ultra bloody terrorist attacks in the 1990s and early 200s, Muslims should be grateful that these attacks weren't followed by retaliatory massacres aimed at them.

As Sa'iqa wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

As Sa'iqa wrote:But such a separation is heretical to Islam. Fighting for Islam/Muslims automatically means fighting for political power of the religion.

That's why even though most Chechens/Arabs/whatever are nice people, there will ALWAYS be people who think they're obligated to fight for theocracy with any means necessary.

Thus, ultimately, there are few options available if you want to defeat terrorism in Russia. The best one would be a simple, ruthless fight. Jail or kill all people engaged in terrorism, cut off funding from Gulf states. And no political correctness - a big no for whitewashing terrorist crimes against civilians, no for using your tolerance against you or for hiding behind the accusations of racism or islamophobia.

Of course things such as tolerance and multiculturalism are good but they have limits too - and they cannot be used by someone who'll have no use for them once they attain enough power.

I don't see why Russia should start persecuting people who have committed no crime; just for being Muslims - or whatever else.

That's not the sort of justice system that I want to see take hold in my country.
And I live here & pay my taxes - so I have a right to say.

Of course; monitor the people who are high-risk; suspected radicalized mosques, the people who go to them, and infiltrate crime networks among the seedy part of diaspora communities and so on - that all makes sense; and it can be performed without harming or repressing innocents.

It also goes for other ideologies that threaten Russia's territorial integrity, safety of its citizens, or safety of foreign citizens on its soil - such as Russian nationalism, fascism and local nationalist movements in various republics too.
Islamic terrorism is far from the only worry for Russia. In fact it may sooner or later be relegated to division two - and that's when the real problems will take hold.

Read my post once again - and then reply.

I did, now I understand your point better.
But now read this post that you just made.

No, I don't support institutionalized discrimination of Muslims, nor do I advocate threatening them, vandalizing their property, desecrating their religious sites or any other actions meant to humiliate them. As a libertarian I believe that every person has the right to live as they please - but the freedom of one person ends where the freedom of a second one begins.

Russian people still have shown remarkable restraint after being confronted with several ultra bloody terrorist attacks in the 1990s and early 200s, Muslims should be grateful that these attacks weren't followed by retaliatory massacres aimed at them.

These two paragraphs seem to be in contradiction to each other.

My first post refers to people suspected of terrorism, not to Muslims as a group.

Enough said.

As Sa'iqa wrote:My first post refers to people suspected of terrorism, not to Muslims as a group.

Enough said.

That's fine, people suspected of terrorism should be monitored, questioned and if evidence is found - impounded.

But no need for any reprisals against random people who didn't actually do anything.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:"My point is that Russia didnt invade the Caucuses, or set out to exploit Muslims. Muslims set out to ethnically cleanse Christians and Russians."


That is a very funny revisionism of history. Spoken like a true apparatchik.

Believe it or not most victims of crime in the Kavkaz are Muslims/ Native inhabitants.

Stop trying to frame this as some great Muslim Christian struggle.

If you want to get down to it the biggest cleanser of innocents in the Kavkaz has always been the Russian military. And no, it was NOT ever justified by mythical "Muslim cleansing".

It is clear from all your posts you have not spent one day in the region.

Where did you learn that last one from? Kavkazcenter? No, Muslims have been terrorizing Russians for a very long time, prior to Russia going into north caucuses. And no, you dont have to spend a day there to know this fact.

Your views on this is pretty sick. So you support the acts of terrorism in Russia because of so called massacre of muslims by Russians? Pretty sick.

Well said Sepheronx. Brave Russian soldiers AND civillians gave their lives in their many thousands, so that decent people weren't terrorised and murdered by the utter scum that are the Muslim extremists.

To compare these heroes with the total excrement that is this the separatist Muslims is sick in the extreme.

Another wicked and cowardly attack just now. 5 cadets and their warrant officer murdered for being Russian. Strange how it all kicks off again after Bandar's tantrum. But nothing we didn't know already, bearing in mind the Wahabists being behind the Chechen terror campaigns before. I am hearing Muslims saying that Saudi Arabia needs get hit very hard. Saudi Arabia is another regime run by utter vermin.

It takes a sick individual to try and defend the Russian population of Chechnya going from over 50% down to about 2%. And still have the nerve to say it wasnt ethnic "cleansing".

Perhaps Mr TR1 would like to explain all his comments to the FSB?

flamming_python wrote:

As Sa'iqa wrote:My first post refers to people suspected of terrorism, not to Muslims as a group.

Enough said.

That's fine, people suspected of terrorism should be monitored, questioned and if evidence is found - impounded.

But no need for any reprisals against random people who didn't actually do anything.

Financing terror, providing propaganda for terror, working commercially for terror, shielding terrorists, these are all crimes of terrorism. Likewise armed revolt in support of a terrorist regime.

Thats more than several dozen black widows that need to be dealt with. Infact, judging by what they did to Russia in the Chechen wars, thats one HELL OF A LOT of cowardly animals that need locking up or executing.

Ethnic cleansing happened in Chechnya but the Russian population going down from 40-50% was as much to do with escaping from the war itself, and the complete collapse of the economy and all social services in Chechnya in the war and inter-war years as anything else.

When the Russian army stormed Grozny in the 2nd war (1999), it was ethnic Russians to a large extent that suffered; because Grozny was always a Russian-populated city by at least 50%; and whereas the Chechens all bugged out to the countryside; many elderly Russians had nowhere else to flee too.
Needless to say, these Russians wouldn't have been there in 1999; if there really was a complete Nazi-style campaign of racial extermination between 1991-1999 conducted by the Chechens. But that would be a quite the exaggeration I think.

There were certainly also plenty of instances of collatoral damage, war crimes, accidently or not accidental bombing of villages and so on commited by the Russian military. No-one here is questioning that the war was neccessery as such, at least by that stage; but it certainly could have been fought better without turning so much of the local population against us.