But 150 million is way too expensive.
IMO it will be a contract for also su-34 which should be around 30-40 million. If the su-57 is 100 million then it will be 14 su-57 and 14 su-34 for 2 billion and other contract for weapons.
LMFS wrote:
“None of the aircraft has ever been able to ensure that at cruising supersonic speeds (1600 kilometers per hour) it was possible to fly in non-afterburner mode. Nobody in the world has achieved this yet - neither France, nor England, nor Rolls-Royce, nor Pratt & Whitney - nobody, "Tolboyev stressed.
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lyle6 wrote:The Chinese bought two dozen Su-35S jets for $ 2.5 billion.
I have to ask: what are you smoking that you'd think the Su-57 is going to ever come close to this price point?
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Backman wrote:Apparently Algeria has now officially purchased 14 su 57's + for 2 billion dollars. It was just a coincidence that i mentioned it yesterday
https://twitter.com/brokly990/status/1330075122397540354?s=20
Isos wrote:That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.
LMFS wrote:The "LEVCONS" in Su-57 are simply LE flaps for the body lifting surface, they are scheduled, for what I have seen, absolutely the same way that LE flaps on the wings. So they allow to increase AoA without airflow detaching and that is very important when the lifting surface outside of the wings is so big as in the Su-57. They don't deflect upwards like canards would do to pitch the nose upwards, some people get confused by this.
The effect of the LERX seems less pronounced in Su-57 than in other planes like Flanker itself, vortexes always generate drag so that may be a good thing, if the manage to keep the airflow attached more with the LEVCONS and less with LERX turbulence.
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PeregrineFalcon wrote:LMFS wrote:The "LEVCONS" in Su-57 are simply LE flaps for the body lifting surface, they are scheduled, for what I have seen, absolutely the same way that LE flaps on the wings. So they allow to increase AoA without airflow detaching and that is very important when the lifting surface outside of the wings is so big as in the Su-57. They don't deflect upwards like canards would do to pitch the nose upwards, some people get confused by this.
The effect of the LERX seems less pronounced in Su-57 than in other planes like Flanker itself, vortexes always generate drag so that may be a good thing, if the manage to keep the airflow attached more with the LEVCONS and less with LERX turbulence.
Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I'm following its content for quite some time!
I decided to join because I have noticed that some of my writing was shared from F-16.net forum. My nick was Fastetbird,
the vertical tails are also deflecting in opposite direction in relation to each other to put the extra pressure on the back of the plane.
Isos wrote:lyle6 wrote:The Chinese bought two dozen Su-35S jets for $ 2.5 billion.
I have to ask: what are you smoking that you'd think the Su-57 is going to ever come close to this price point?
Su-57 is more expensive than su-35.
Export price of su-30MKI is reaching 70 million. Su-57 will easily reach 90-100 million.
PeregrineFalcon wrote:I decided to join because I have noticed that some of my writing was shared from F-16.net forum. My nick was Fastetbird, and I was using this nick [Peregrinefalcon] on Keypublishing forum. I'm not active for years now, don't have much time for writing.
At 1:48 sec. of the video we can see that the LEVCON is deflecting upwards,
Also, LEVCON's have similar role as LE flaps through convectional flight envelope, but during the high AoA maneuvering they are totally detached from synchronized movement with LE flaps.
Here is the interview with Sergey Bogdan where he compares the Su-27 with Su-35S and PAK FA. I have also presented the link in F-16.net forum for the video where he compares the Su-35S and PAK FA, but its not there anymore. If I find it I will post it here. In that video he is claiming that the PAK FA is having greater acceleration and turning performance compared to Su-35s among other things, and if I remember correctly, he was also saying that it even has greater fuel capacity!
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thegopnik wrote:dying to know what he means by specific consumption.
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Yeah that is the idea, to trim with the most drag-effective way of creating force, but when the center of lift moves backward at supersonic speeds you would need the nozzles pointing upwards and therefore pushing the tail down to trim the plane. Instead, if the LEVCONs are used to modify the body's airfoil equivalent camber you are creating lift in a drag economical way in front of the CoG to adjust AoA as needed. That is better than pushing the plane down with the TVC.
A plane never flies at 0 deg AoA, that is the question. If you create force downwards with the nozzles as you say above to move the nose up, you are detracting that force from your lift and therefore increasing the needed AoA and associated drag of the plane.
That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.
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GarryB wrote:But TVC to trim the aircraft does not push anything down... indeed the jet engines angled slightly down increases lift it does not counter lift.
More to the point the trimming effect of the engine nozzles does not lift or drag down the aircraft which is riding on wing and fuselage induced lift... all it effectively does is turn the aircraft on its point of rotation around its centre of gravity without any control surfaces needing to be deflected and therefore contribute to drag and increased RCS.
The ability to vector the thrust angle means you can change the angle the aircraft sits at in regards to the incoming airflow...
thegopnik wrote:
dying to know what he means by specific consumption.
GarryB wrote:Yeae TVC.
A plane never flies at 0 deg AoA, that is the question. If you create force downwards with the nozzles as you say above to move the nose up, you are detracting that force from your lift and therefore increasing the needed AoA and associated drag of the plane.
That's almost 150 million unit price. I doubt it's this much.
Depends on what is included... they don't have any current Su-57s so that would include simulators and munitions and full training...
I rather suspect the Russians were not in a huge hurry to export the aircraft too... besides... 36 Rafales for 8 billion for India... works out at 222 million per aircraft... are you trying to say the Rafale is a much better aircraft worth the extra?
The US will be buying F-15s for about 150 million... I would think exported models will be over 200 million each... I would think a few US allies might think they are a better bet than F-35s. Cheaper to operate, faster, heavier payload, longer flight range...
LMFS wrote:Welcome!
LMFS wrote:Good find! I had not seen this before, thought it had been argued they could be used to pitch the nose up. 99% per cent of the time LEVCONs are scheduled like the LE flaps and only bend downwards, but you managed to find a moment when they go upwards, even when only very slightly, way less than normal canards. It makes sense, since this is an additional trim option the plane has. I stand corrected.
BTW, during take off the plane seems to need really minimal deflection of the surface controls to pitch up the nose and take off. It seems like the plane has substantial longitudinal instability, how do you think this should work in supersonic flight? What do you think is the design point of the airframe, that is, the speed at which it needs the least trim?
LMFS wrote:The interview is good, from the old days when they actually said interesting things about the plane, thanks. I am not seeing all those claims there, if you find the video it will be great.
Don't get me wrong, I expect that the Su-57 surpasses the Su-35 in most regards, but in absence of proof is good to be cautious.
BTW I found your argumentation very well built, my main comment was the lack of evidence for some claims as they were posted here. Of course I am happy to learn new things about the Su-57, it is getting harder this days almost nothing is disclosed
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At supersonic speeds the center of lift moves backwards, that means, the nose tends to fall.
To compensate for that your nozzles need to point upwards, that is, create a downward force, to lift the nose.
That force needs to be compensated with more lift to keep level flight.
A downwards force needs to be compensated, not differently to tail deflection.
It is better to have lift in front of the CoG than downforce behind it.
Yes I know. The point you seem to be missing is that pitching the nose down is done by creating additional lift with the TVC while pitching it up demands the nozzles to press the tail down.
So one way it creates lift, the other reduces it.
That was the whole rationale behind canards on longitudinally stable planes BTW, so instead of a tail reducing lift all the time to avoid nose falling, you have a foreplane increasing it.
This seems legit, dont know if it was posted before, just seen it on another forum.
Compared to deals like France/India, I think Russia gave Algeria as good of a deal as they could.
Backman wrote:No way ! Welcome Fastestbird. Make sure you introduce yourself in the intro page. Its a requirement on the forum.
PeregrineFalcon wrote:I share your opinion about planes instability levels that actually dictate such a minimal upward LEVCON deflection. Since the PAK FA aerodynamic design represents blended wing-body sheme, in a sense it is like a big wing [cranked-arrow wing] with mixed airfoil cross sections, LEVCON's can be used for trimming purposes in the way that they can be deflected upward by a few degrees to reduce camber drag penalties during supersonic flight, and since they are placed in front of planes CoG they create lift and reduce drag compared to horizontal tails that are place behind the planes CoG and need negative deflection.
Of course, this is my theory, but coupled with the TVC, there is no doubt that the plane has ability to significantly reduce trim drag during supersonic flight, and for example, there are calculations that only by using TVC for trimming purposes there could be increase in turning rate by 14% for sustained supersonic turn!
I always try to base my argumentation on the facts as much as possible, but sometimes we need to use our brains to fill the holes the bast way we know in the absence of hard factual data
GarryB wrote:That is not correct.
They don't actually point upwards they might shift angle a few degrees which will compensate for the shift in cg,
But a downward force from a control surface is not the same as a downward force from an engine nozzle... you are trying to say that if there is enough downward force from a tail surface that the plane will fall out of the sky because the downward force will exceed the lift of the wing and the total downforce will make the plane lose lift and crash, but that is bullshit...