Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

dino00 wrote:Moscow. December 7. Interfax - The "second stage" engine, which ensures the cruising supersonic speed of the Su-57 fighter, will be ready in 2022, the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov told reporters.

“I hope that sometime in 2022 the engines will be ready,“ put on the wing, ”and within a few years we will launch their serial production,” Chemezov said.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=542823&lang=RU

The SU-57 in 2022 will still have the same engine.

It was gonna be a while till the new engines would arrive. Because they are brand new engines, it has to go through heavy testing before introduction.

https://tass.com/defense/1232179

I think this article in english is more clear about the 2 stage engine

LMFS wrote:

Arrow wrote:

This was posted some time before but the picture had not been processed so heavily, I don't even know if people realized that the blocker was supposed to be there...

To continue with this....

JSC "Ufa Engine-Building Production Association" demonstrated the first samples of high-pressure compressor blades of a promising engine for PAK FA at the exhibition following the results of the federal target program, which took place on April 25-27 at the Forum Hall (Moscow). The parts are made by a unique casting method from an intermetallic compound (an alloy of titanium and aluminum - titanium aluminide). Its advantage lies in the fact that, while maintaining all the strength characteristics, blades made of titanium aluminide are much lighter than similar parts made using the previously used casting technology from nickel alloys. This is the result of joint work of UMPO and the National Research Technological University "Moscow Institute of Steel and Alloys" in the framework of the FTP "


Date: 22.05.2013
Photo by: sdelanounas.ru
Source: UMPO

https://www.oborudunion.ru/publications/posts/1881

dino00 wrote:Moscow. December 7. Interfax - The "second stage" engine, which ensures the cruising supersonic speed of the Su-57 fighter, will be ready in 2022, the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov told reporters.

“I hope that sometime in 2022 the engines will be ready,“ put on the wing, ”and within a few years we will launch their serial production,” Chemezov said.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=542823&lang=RU

The SU-57 in 2022 will still have the same engine.

It was always a 2 phase engine project.

I think the new engine is overkill anyway. It will be good for the pilots to get used to this thing with a more manageable engine first. The new engined plane is going to be a handful for the pilots.

^ The su 57 has modular engine bays. If I recall , they designed it in a way that would allow other engines to be bolted in. So the new engine could probably be installed in the older aircraft. Seems like a lot of work though just to make a fast plane even faster

The titanium aluminide turbine blades are likely not as simple as cited.

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1944/12/4/629/pdf

We are looking at ceramics and not alloys. The second gen engine of the Su-57 was to use ceramics and this article gives us
some idea.

Don't you believe that with the advent of the mounted photonic radar the stealth fighter concept becomes obsolete?

Kiko wrote:Don't you believe that with the advent of the mounted photonic radar the stealth fighter concept becomes obsolete?

Yeah but internal weapons reduces drag. So it's not a total loss. And the smaller the dimensions of an aircraft is , the smaller they will be on those radars. So flat design like the su 57 or YF-23 will be ideal.

LMFS wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:
JSC "Ufa Engine-Building Production Association" demonstrated the first samples of high-pressure compressor blades of a promising engine for PAK FA at the exhibition following the results of the federal target program, which took place on April 25-27 at the Forum Hall (Moscow).

Backman wrote:I think the new engine is overkill anyway. It will be good for the pilots to get used to this thing with a more manageable engine first. The new engined plane is going to be a handful for the pilots.

^ The su 57 has modular engine bays. If I recall , they designed it in a way that would allow other engines to be bolted in. So the new engine could probably be installed in the older aircraft. Seems like a lot of work though just to make a fast plane even faster

I am sure pilots never think they have too much thrust at disposal

The idea as explained in the thread is that until the new engine is released, the Su-57 will be a great fighter but not really the machine it is intended to be, with its main combat mode being blocked by an engine design intended for subsonic flight. I think this is highly relevant, to the point of actually being the enabler of a complete change in tactics and concept of operations.

I agree with the highlighted. That's probably true.

But I think you are still selling the stage 1 su 57 a little short.

I just wanted to share an image comparing the side drawings of the su 57 and YF-23 that I found. It sorta puts home the point about why the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. Its flat blend wing design. And it also puts home the point in my humble opinion, that the su 57's stealth is under estimated.

There are 4 yes 4 light fighters. Most SMT's were purchased almost 8 years ago. In total Russia has less light fighters than Turkey FFS (about 120). It more than compensates with the SU-27 family (over 300) but the need for a point fighter is clear. Local troublions like Turkey don't need to get taken head on by the PAK FA or SU-30/35.

Think you are confusing light with light... the MiG-29 is not a light plane, it is a cheaper plane, yet it is not MiG-29M2s on order, it is MiG-35s as the "cheap" light, to operate with the expensive "heavies".

Then you check the Quack of Doom (Su-34) numbers and you see that the replacement of the Su-24 is not possible (they're at the same level). Russia needs a ~300 strike fleet to spread through military regions.

Just like the fighter role will be spread across various aircraft... Su-57, Su-35, Su-30 (which is turning into a two seat Su-35) and the MiG-35, effectively the air to ground capacity of the Su-57 and future MiG stealth fighter will also compliment the Su-34 in the strike mission along with S-70 drones and long range hypersonic missiles.

If it was a single engine aircraft like the MiG-21 then it might make sense.

You mean single engined and cheap like F-35?

I don't think an aircraft is possible that includes the terms cheap and 5th gen and single engined. That ship has sailed. except a single engined semi 5th gen drone... but even then it will cost more than a MiG-21.

But if it is another twin engine aircraft it will be nearly as expensive as Su-57 without the same performance.

The idea of only having one engine is to reduce performance and operating costs with commonality and numbers... a simplified medium fighter has more potential for better performance and less costs than any light weight fighter or souped up LIFT.

Agree. At this point I don't sure if the VKS still need lighter tier 5th gen fighter.
It's unlike the TPFI-LPFI time, today's technological enable the tactical requirement of both tier could be met with one plane.

If Su-57 and LMFS will be comparable advancement in avionic and design, I doubt the latter will cheaper (to procure and to operate) enough for VKS to bother operate two different planes for similar role.
Especially with lastest information suggest it will be twin engines, not single.

It's also easier to maintenance planes with similar design, similar subsystems, similar suppliers.
Which will be increased combat readiness of the whole fleet.

Even if they don't buy a lot of LMFS aircraft the technology and systems developed for it will make the MiG-35s they do buy rather more capable and useful, but I agree they may find stealth is not as useful as so many seem to think in many situations and the extra cost of the LMFS is simply not worth it when you can get the same avionics and systems in a more conventional and cheaper aircraft (MiG-35).

Precision strikes don't change the problem. With a typical rotation and attrition you need those 300 SU-34 (Current is 250 AC between SU-24 and Su-34). Russia is a large country. You got two issues. Air time and coverage.

To be fair they also will have 60 odd Tu-22M3Ms as well...

The idea as explained in the thread is that until the new engine is released, the Su-57 will be a great fighter but not really the machine it is intended to be, with its main combat mode being blocked by an engine design intended for subsonic flight. I think this is highly relevant, to the point of actually being the enabler of a complete change in tactics and concept of operations.

That is OK, you could argue that it will never be a potent fighter till they have 300 in service anyway, so 300 by 2022 is unreasonable, but by 2026 or so is not that far fetched if all things go well...

[quote]The idea as explained in the thread is that until the new engine is released, the Su-57 will be a great fighter but not really the machine it is intended to be, with its main combat mode being blocked by an engine design intended for subsonic flight. I think this is highly relevant, to the point of actually being the enabler of a complete change in tactics and concept of operations./quote]

At its core being stealthy and being able to supercruise are easily enough to counter any eurocanards which are currently the main enemy... by the time they get the new engine HATO will have a lot more F-35s which should finish them off by my calculations....

I just wanted to share an image comparing the side drawings of the su 57 and YF-23 that I found. It sorta puts home the point about why the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. Its flat blend wing design. And it also puts home the point in my humble opinion, that the su 57's stealth is under estimated.

Not to mention how pretty it is.... x2

At its core being stealthy and being able to supercruise are easily enough to counter any eurocanards which are currently the main enemy...

From what I understand from PeregrineFalcon, in a fighting configuration, internal weapons vs 4th gen help a lot.drag wise as well.

Russia’s Su-57 Jet is Save Money and ‘More Stealthy’ with New Air Intake Grille (sic)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGGJzgCx8uQ&t=319s


Animation and discussion of the air intake at 20 secs.

LMFS wrote:...
“Titanium aluminide blades are used in the very last stages of the low pressure turbine on civil aircraft, where the gas temperature is relatively low. This results in significant weight savings, as civil engines have multistage turbines. In a military engine, the gas temperature even in front of a low-pressure turbine is much higher, and titanium aluminide is simply inapplicable in these conditions, ”explained the General Designer of the A. Lyulka Design Bureau

“Intermetallics like titanium aluminide are not suitable for compressor blades either. This material is fragile, and any nick on the shoulder blade is fraught with its destruction. And the weight savings for the compressor are insignificant, "added Marchukov.

Yeah that makes sense. Like I said, both titanium and aluminium aren't that good with high temperatures. So it makes sense they would use them in the low-pressure turbine.
I do wonder if composites wouldn't be even better at that though. Perhaps fiberglass reinforced plastic or something like that. At least for the turbofan blades.
If it is too hot for that then they could use carbon fiber composites which can handle reasonably high temperatures.
For the hot sections they could use SiC (silicon carbide) or something like that. It is a ceramic which resists well high temperatures.
Problem is it is a bit brittle, as any ceramic, so might not work in this military application. But I have heard of it being used in bearings.

There was also some talk about replacing the hydraulic actuators on the aircraft with electrical ones. That should make the aircraft significantly easier to maintain and cheaper to build.
I think this will be a trait we will see in 6th generation fighter aircraft.

Isos wrote:US are the most advanced in aircraft engines. They are leaders in that field and they have lot of money from civilian engines.

They have accumulated loads of money from civilian programs but French and Russian fighter jet engines are equally good, probably better. Look at the mess that the F-35's engine is.

Similarly Airbus designs better engines than GE or Pratt & Whitney. Its Boeing's aircraft that are falling off from the skies.

An important video to watch for people who think the skins of 5th gen fighters are invisible to radar... if they were all those bolts and fasteners and ribs and support parts would be visible which would create 1,000 times more of a radar return than the skin would make with its smooth surface and lack of corners....

From the paralay board

Composite cladding. With sawtooth edges.



Possibly this location, the gear door on the left

dino00 wrote:Moscow. December 7. Interfax - The "second stage" engine, which ensures the cruising supersonic speed of the Su-57 fighter, will be ready in 2022, the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov told reporters.

“I hope that sometime in 2022 the engines will be ready,“ put on the wing, ”and within a few years we will launch their serial production,” Chemezov said.

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=542823&lang=RU

The SU-57 in 2022 will still have the same engine.

I wonder if the US 6th gen fighter will be flying by that time, and if the WS15s on the J-20 will be ready.

Also why would the aircraft with the new engines need many more years for testing, when all their other systems will be the same? Isnt the izd.30 being flight tested right now?