Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2

Isos wrote:

Alone in the black sea it is useless.

Who says she would be operating alone? She usually operates in a group.

But I do agree that her functions is a bit degraded since it is not up to date. But for a ship that old to conduct another 'Nakhimov' style of modernization (Nakhimov-style means ripping old electronics and weaponries off and switching it to new equipment) is probably seen as a 'not-worth-the-effort' knowing the growing pain that is Nakhimov's modernization itself.

Ship modernization is a long and arduous process that starts with the designer and the yard that would conduct the modernization to conduct studies if it is worth it or is it feasible.

For the placement of more than two Steregushchiy in the Black Sea, sure. But why? The remaining two Steregushchiys in Severnaya's backlogs would basically be replacements for the two Krivaks remaining there if the last one is destined for the Black Sea.

Pacific kinda needs it more than other fleets due to the lack of vessels safeguarding the submarine bases, distant island holdings (like Kurils), and possibly escort missions to the NSR.

Isos wrote:...Or smarter, 4 in black sea and send back the Moskva in the north were it is supposed to be to hunt nato big ships instead of keeping it in the black sea where it can fo the work of a small patrol ship only.

Moskva is approaching her expiration date, she will be 50 soon, no point upgrading now

They will let her serve out remaining time in Black Sea and then send couple of Gorshkovs there

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...Or smarter, 4 in black sea and send back the Moskva in the north were it is supposed to be to hunt nato big ships instead of keeping it in the black sea where it can fo the work of a small patrol ship only.

Moskva is approaching her expiration date, she will be 50 soon, no point upgrading now

They will let her serve out remaining time in Black Sea and then send couple of Gorshkovs there

This is a far better solution than upgrading old Moskva (which is the first of its class), I have no doubts that the Black Sea would get a Gorshkov to replace the missing Moskva in its roles.

Isos wrote: Its modernization would be far quicker than Nakhimov.

The launchers are external so can be just cut and removed.

Wiring isn't exeptional work. Radars can be also switch for new version by keeping the old wires.

Yeah...no. Unless your shipyards has the name Dalzavod or Sevmash, it would be a painful process. Zvezdockha via the 35th Shipyard couldn't even do a small upgrade for the Chabanenko in a proper and fast manner, how much more for a cruiser. Plus Zvezdockha is busy with submarine repair at the moment to be busy with a cruiser that would span years.

It is only a matter of time before shipyards are going to have to start building bigger heavier ships with bigger sensors and weapon loadouts, so upgrades of older ships, while not ideal, do improve ships in the short term that can be used faster.

I would say ripping out the old computers and electronics of an old ship and mounting new systems, with a few new modular weapons added to replace obsolete systems you don't want to keep in service and keep maintaining makes sense...

Upgrading the Moskva without bothering to replace the heavy anti ship missiles and just improve the AA systems and make it a temporary command ship... most of their new smaller ships can carry the long range hypersonic and supersonic missiles they would require to clear the Black Sea of enemy surface ships easily enough...

They could replace the Klintok with Redut and put deck mounted new TOR missiles along the front deck on either side where the Vulcans were mounted in enormous numbers so they could literally have hundreds of new TOR and also large numbers of Redut missiles too...



The front gun could be upgraded to a new 130mm gun, which is a fraction of the weight of the original it is replacing.... the heavy missile tubes for the Vulkans could be replaced with naval TOR vertical launchers in enormous numbers and the raised deck area between the front 8 missiles, behind the 130mm gun could be fitted with four or five UKSK launchers. The rear area with the Rif systems could be replaced with a vastly more efficient fixed cell launch system based on Redut that can take full sized S-400 missiles as well as quads of the 9M96 missiles and 16s of the 9M100 missiles... there is plenty of space there but the rotary missile magazines were tremendously inefficient for storing the missiles... instead of 64, you should be able to get more than 128 large missile tubes there in that space...



By Unknown author - http://www.defenseimagery.mil; VIRIN: DN-SN-90-02203 (note: cropped out from the DoD-image), Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=6409214

I would expect the new equipment and systems could be installed as a test case for new radars and sonar and systems, but that the level of automation would mean less crew might be needed freeing up space and reducing operational costs as well as a good chance to get early real life testing for some of the bigger radar arrays and the new TOR system...

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...Or smarter, 4 in black sea and send back the Moskva in the north were it is supposed to be to hunt nato big ships instead of keeping it in the black sea where it can fo the work of a small patrol ship only.

Moskva is approaching her expiration date, she will be 50 soon, no point upgrading now

They will let her serve out remaining time in Black Sea and then send couple of Gorshkovs there

Moskva was put into service in 1981. That´s 40 years.

Hole wrote:...Moskva was put into service in 1981. That´s 40 years.

Exactly

And in just 10 years she will be out (she should have been already but it is what it is)

The Udaloy´s are from the same time, maybe 5 years younger, and will still be modernised (at least 4 or so). Put a new radar on top, a new fire control radar and make the VLS fit for the 48N6M2 and 9M96 missiles.

They have already laid down an upgraded Gorshkov, I rather suspect they will be laying down destroyers in the next few years too... destroyers would be more use supporting helicopter carriers than frigates, no matter how well armed those frigates might be.

Replacing all the old equipment on her would be good work and income for the companies making the bits and pieces for the new ships... if they want large orders for frigates and then destroyers then those component makers are going to have to expand production... making 4-6 UKSK launchers for a single upgraded Slava class ship would be good income for the company that makes them while waiting for destroyers and enlarged frigates to be laid down.

Not to mention production requirements for the makers of the missiles to fill those tubes.

Also Russian Navy isn't going hard on upgrading Slava-class because it's been compromised: the Ukrainians allowed USA to inspect unfinished Ukraina cruiser in detail and while it was incomplete it was still treasure trove of intel


Back to the real world, corvette Gremashi during visit to Port Colombo, Sri Lanka en route home to Pacific:

GarryB wrote:They have already laid down an upgraded Gorshkov

So correction there, they will laid down the upgraded and larger Gorshkovs (dubbed Super Gorshkov by the media and has the Project number of 22350M) by the year 2024

We are aware that a modern frigate with a large displacement and armament is in great need of the Navy. Currently, this issue is being actively worked out in the Ministry of Defense. We are currently working on the technical design of the ship, which we expect to complete in 2023. Starting in 2024, we will begin construction of the head modernized frigate.

If what you meant for an upgraded Gorshkov is the second batch with a larger UKSK count starting from Admiral Amelko, then that would be correct.

More pics from Sri Lanka

The Russian Corvette "Gromkiy" and the Chinese Frigate "Binzhou" in the Sino-Russian Joint Naval Interaction exercise.

Also Russian Navy isn't going hard on upgrading Slava-class because it's been compromised: the Ukrainians allowed USA to inspect unfinished Ukraina cruiser in detail and while it was incomplete it was still treasure trove of intel

The Slava class ships they have are in operational condition and with some minor upgrades could be useful for quite a few years while they work on custom designed heavier ships to replace them.

US inspection of an incomplete Slava means nothing because nothing fitted to them of importance will be retained... they will have to upgrade the electronics and comms systems and upgrading most of the other stuff with simple straight forward new systems shouldn't cost the earth and should be quicker than waiting for a new build cruiser built from scratch.

They could also take the opportunity to test some new systems like rather large radar arrays, large sonar systems... equipment they can't fit on smaller vessels but will be using on helicopter carriers and eventually destroyers and cruisers and even CVNs.

So correction there, they will laid down the upgraded and larger Gorshkovs (dubbed Super Gorshkov by the media and has the Project number of 22350M) by the year 2024

Well best to get the design right... there is no hurry yet.

If what you meant for an upgraded Gorshkov is the second batch with a larger UKSK count starting from Admiral Amelko, then that would be correct.

That is what I was thinking...

To hear the fanboys on the internet you would think they have never heard of working to a budget and long term planning...

Leaving the port

Could ships of this size be made to carry naval variants of the S-400 and S-500 systems? Having a greater dispersion of naval air defence could be advantageous for use in defending the Russian mainland.

The-thing-next-door wrote:Could ships of this size be made to carry naval variants of the S-400 and S-500 systems? Having a greater dispersion of naval air defence could be advantageous for use in defending the Russian mainland.

Hell no

You could but you'd have to remove a bunch of other capabilities and you'd get probably not many VLS cells because those missiles are really big & the radar/electronics also big & heavy up top.

If I recall one of the export concept models for 22350 has S-300F but I think only 16* cells.
There has been the recent concept model of 22160 with Zaslon & 24* redut cells but losing pretty much everything else.