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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:04 am

    Disagree. Clearly what we have, is a desire on Azeri side for ethnic cleansing of Armenians. Driving out of their homes. Out of entire " occupied"  area. If they succeed , and are stronger. Then the offensive will not stop, simply at recapture of lost territory.  Even if they stop, we deal with unacceptable NAZTO / terror presence. A clear threat to region. Clearly what we have, is direct involvement by Turkey, military hardware and top Brass. Importation of terror groups. Supply of offensive Usrael Rockets, used to target Roads and bridges.

    Some say, repeatedly, what is in it for Russia or Iran to get involved?  It is too early. Why take sides...............( establishing ceasefire is not taking sides) My reply is that , waiting is not a good option. It is a matter of what we gain immediately  and what we loose long term. Stopping the war now. Or stopping the war later. When region destroyed. NAZTO bases established. Land Bridge lost between countries. Economic opportunities lost for regional development.

    What is needed, is active peacemaking. Overcoming political inertia. This whole problem can be solved quickly. Russia striking from North. Iran from South. Joining in the middle. Along present line of contact. Separating combatants. Not occupying land. Iran putting blockade against armaments in Caspian against the Usrael offensive heavy weapons, Russia in Black Sea. Alternative is NAZTO occupation of Caucases. Act now.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:02 am

    So no attempts by Armenian to actually suppress the drone by using Iskander to strike their Airbase ? Shooting drones down is nice but actually hitting their control center is what's count.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:17 am

    The only advantage of Azerbaijan are the drones and they don't have that many of them. Armenia has the advantage on the ground. Turkish convoys in Georgia can be destroyed there pretty easily.

    They can easily win the war by destroying azeri mig-29 quickly and their AD and then hunt for drones.

    Armenian artillery is much more precise and there infantry seems better trained.

    But they don't use the 4 su-30SM at all.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:41 am

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:https://twitter.com/IlgarVOI/status/1312484301024313345?s=20

    Very moments when Azerbaijani soldiers remove occupation flag and reinstall Azerbaijani flag in the town center of Suqovuşan (occupation name Magadhiz)

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 13 Ejdqb010

    So Azerbaijani army capture village which was already their or they lost it in between?
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:56 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:So no attempts by Armenian to actually suppress the drone by using Iskander to strike their  Airbase ? Shooting drones down is nice but actually hitting their control center is what's count.

    Apparently it's a Turkish command & control aircraft of some kind, maybe an RC-130 variant, that's airborne and controlling the drones.

    So Armenia can't target it without breaching Azeri airspace, and taking out a NATO aircraft.
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    Post  Maximmmm Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Armenia started talking about Russian peacekeepers in Nagorno-Karabakh

    And Russia replied that peacekeepers can only be sent with approval of both sides:

    https://ria.ru/20201004/peskov-1578166479.html



    Looks to me that Armenia wants Russia to both solve their problems for them and take the publicity heat for doing so

    And Russia simply isn't interested in that setup, stopping offensive quickly would mean attacking targets in Azerbaijan but not even Armenia is willing to do that despite supposedly being at war with them

    How the hell is Russia supposed to sugar-coat going in guns blazing to their public when even Armenians themselves aren't willing to make a pass for the end zone?

    And what if Russia does stomp on Azerbaijan and several years later some EU friendly administration in Yerevan decides to condemn such behavior because they wanted some points from Brussels?



    Message seems to be that Armenians need to start doing some heavy hitting themselves first if they want others to move in and that first and foremost current political direction and those who are responsible for it need to disappear like yesterday




    Yup, I agree wholeheartedly. It seems to be the smarter move so far.
    Slight problem would be the reaction of Armenians on the street, who would blame us for holding back, but if we can't get the government to cooperate the opinion of the streets never matters anyway.
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:18 am


    So NAZTO plane and top Brass, can be in region. In Armenia and Azer both. They can provide security or insecurity. So why should anyone turn to Russia or Iran?

    It is like a patient and Doctor. A patient only goes to a Doctor, if they feel they provide a cure. If they don' t have the cure, they will go elsewhere.

    Russia and Iran, are not there to provide a cure or treatment. Or to withdraw treatment. If patient rude or don't pay bills. You need a chicken first to lay egg. The egg does not automatic turn into chicken.........

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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:28 am

    Had they accepted historical settlers back, this would all be over. They said no and now suffer consequences.

    And had Serbia kicked all the Albanians out of Kosovo before HATO intervened Kosovo would still be Serbian territory.

    Since when has it been a criminal offence to stop invasion by migration?

    Be careful how you answer because there are millions of poor people around the world looking for someone to defend their right to turn up with their hand out and occupy land that does not belong to them and get themselves a new country.

    As KVS points out... WWI started with a minor conflict between two tiny regions, and defence pacts and agreements turned it into a bloody war that killed millions but also set the stage for Communism in Russia and ultimately the rise of Hitler and WWII...

    I mean really... who gives a fuck about some arch-duke?

    In this situation a country is attacking people in an attempt to displace them from the land they believe is theirs... Hitler did it and he was the bad guy... Serbia did it in Kosovo and they became the bad guys, Shake Arse Milli Vanili did it in South Ossetia but he was a hero for attacking a civilian population... and now the Azeris are doing it too...

    The main difference however is that Hitler underestimated the Soviets... the Serbs could have easily solved the problem in Kosovo because without HATO help they would have crushed the KLA, and Milli Vanili only dared take on South Ossetia... I think even if Russia had not intervened Abkhazia could have helped SO and done some real damage to Georgia... the real question is... can the Azeris manage to take NK?
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    And Russia replied that peacekeepers can only be sent with approval of both sides:

    https://ria.ru/20201004/peskov-1578166479.html
    And Putin said there were no Russian boots on the ground in Crimea. We all knew that wasn't the case. Take the statement with its corresponding grain of salt - you're not the target audience.

    Isos wrote:The only advantage of Azerbaijan are the drones and they don't have that many of them. Armenia has the advantage on the ground. Turkish convoys in Georgia can be destroyed there pretty easily.

    They can easily win the war by destroying azeri mig-29 quickly and their AD and then hunt for drones.

    Armenian artillery is much more precise and there infantry seems better trained.

    But they don't use the 4 su-30SM at all.

    Those Su-30SMs were a bad choice for Armenia. Tied up way too many resources in an asset that has seen little use if at all due to have valuable it is to risk. The sad thing is it isn't that uncommon for many developing countries to just procure a handful of aircraft and call it a day.

    On the other hand the Azeris only have so much drone on stock and they have depleted quite a bit showboating against low value targets. There has been a marked decrease in the amount of drone footages released by the Azeris which can only mean they couldn't sustain and have rapidly degraded their drone capability.
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    Post  Armenian Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:48 am

    While I personally don't like Nikol Pashinyan, narrative that he is a guy of EU is totally wrong. During the last two years he continued to keep balanced relations with both blocks. Armenia with a small fragile economy needs support from EU. It's nothing new.

    That being said Armenia continued acting according to the Russia interests. We took the whole Ukraine against us because we supported Russia, now they are acting with Azeris. We have been the first and only country aside Russia which sent it's military to Syria, taking the whole West against us. Again.

    Armenian people loves and respects Russia but if in a time of need Russia is going to sacrifice Armenia to Turkic/Jihadi block just because they want to have a puppet leader, you can definitely expect very anti Russia population in near future. We are proud people, we don't ask Russia to come and fight for us.

    But not even making a statement after Armenia itself is attacked?

    I just wanted to share this as someone who lives in Armenia. The idea of punishing Nikol will drive Armenians from Russia causing Russia to lose Armenia after Ukraine and Georgia.

    It's still not late, here in Armenia people still believe in Russia.

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:39 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    And Putin said there were no Russian boots on the ground in Crimea. We all knew that wasn't the case. Take the statement with its corresponding grain of salt - you're not the target audience.


    Those Su-30SMs were a bad choice for Armenia. Tied up way too many resources in an asset that has seen little use if at all due to have valuable it is to risk. The sad thing is it isn't that uncommon for many developing countries to just procure a handful of aircraft and call it a day.

    Putin did not say that, there were 10k+ in Crimea perfectly legally. I think you are confusing Crimea with Donbass.

    I read somewhere that the Armenians cannot use their Su-30SMs or Iskanders without Russian agreement. True or not they are big and limited assets.
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:40 am

    Those Su-30SMs were a bad choice for Armenia. Tied up way too many resources in an asset that has seen little use if at all due to have valuable it is to risk. The sad thing is it isn't that uncommon for many developing countries to just procure a handful of aircraft and call it a day.

    Against azeri they are very good but for that matter they could have ordered 10 mig-29SMT for that price.

    What they really need is pantsir.
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:02 pm

    Legality ?  Sure, if all sides acted legally. Did NAZTO act legally in region? Legally in Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan or  Azerbaijan ?  A non - NAZTO member?  Did. NAZTO act legally by incubating terrorists in the region?  Illegal combatants?  Did NAZTO avoid targeting civilians  and Infrastducture?  Did NAZTO respect the flag of truth to allow peace to be made? Did NAZTO not start illegal wars? Did NAZTO not stage false flags......

    So a minor infringement  by us, to cross a border to stop war, is a cardinal sin?  Or maybe our national interests are subject to minority economic interests? Those who worry continuously about the price of the Dollar?  And foreign investments?  I forgot, the Liberals live in the Bahamas..........


    First they came for the Communists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Communist

    Then they came for the Socialists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Socialist

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist

    Then they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Jew

    Then they came for me
    And there was no one left
    To speak out for me

    No an overt move is needed. A public lynching of NAZTO and those who support it. A flag for people to see and follow. National interests must come first.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:13 pm

    Armenian wrote:While I personally don't like Nikol Pashinyan, narrative that he is a guy of EU is totally wrong. During the last two years he continued to keep balanced relations with both blocks. Armenia with a small fragile economy needs support from EU. It's nothing new.

    That being said Armenia continued acting according to the Russia interests. We took the whole Ukraine against us because we supported Russia, now they are acting with Azeris. We have been the first and only country aside Russia which sent it's military to Syria, taking the whole West against us. Again.

    Armenian people loves and respects Russia but if in a time of need Russia is going to sacrifice Armenia to Turkic/Jihadi block just because they want to have a puppet leader, you can definitely expect very anti Russia population in near future. We are proud people, we don't ask Russia to come and fight for us.

    But not even making a statement after Armenia itself is attacked?

    I just wanted to share this as someone who lives in Armenia. The idea of punishing Nikol will drive Armenians from Russia causing Russia to lose Armenia after Ukraine and Georgia.

    It's still not late, here in Armenia people still believe in Russia.

    This is more complex as it seems. After all, Armenia itself also didn't send its army in Artzakh and is still keeping it in reserve. Russia send help to Armenia, but it went through Iran, because Georgia closed its air space for help to Armenia and open it for transportation of weapons and terrorists in Azerbaijan. Russia need proper reason for intervention. In South Ossethia it was georgian attack on Russian peacekeepers.

    Putin is all the time in contact with Pashinyan and didn't talk with Alliev after the start of war.

    Now, Artzakh, which have population of 300.000 people fight for a whole week against Turkey and Azerbaijan, who together have population of 90 million people. This is only possible with excellent planning and preparations. Before this war started, there was a big military exercise Kaukasus-2020 in Russia and also in Armenia, where Russian and Armenian army trained together. For sure they go through those scenarios to prepare themselves. Russia is quiet, becase they keep their plans secret. When Russia is quiet, something will happen. Russia was quiet, before they come to rescue Crimea. Russia was quiet before they come to rescue South Ossethia,... Talk is cheap, but being quiet means something.

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    Post  flamming_python Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:51 pm

    Armenian wrote:While I personally don't like Nikol Pashinyan, narrative that he is a guy of EU is totally wrong. During the last two years he continued to keep balanced relations with both blocks. Armenia with a small fragile economy needs support from EU. It's nothing new.

    That being said Armenia continued acting according to the Russia interests. We took the whole Ukraine against us because we supported Russia, now they are acting with Azeris. We have been the first and only country aside Russia which sent it's military to Syria, taking the whole West against us. Again.

    Armenian people loves and respects Russia but if in a time of need Russia is going to sacrifice Armenia to Turkic/Jihadi block just because they want to have a puppet leader, you can definitely expect very anti Russia population in near future. We are proud people, we don't ask Russia to come and fight for us.

    But not even making a statement after Armenia itself is attacked?

    I just wanted to share this as someone who lives in Armenia. The idea of punishing Nikol will drive Armenians from Russia causing Russia to lose Armenia after Ukraine and Georgia.

    It's still not late, here in Armenia people still believe in Russia.

    I doubt there's going to be any sort of sacrifice to NATO Turkey and its Jihadists. Everyone who's anyone understands what's at stake even though no-one says it openly.
    And people also understand that having Turkey, which commited a genocide against Armenians a century ago, now fight Azerbaijan's war for it using flying killer robots and Syrian terrorists is not acceptable either.
    The issue of Pashinyan is a tactical one, Moscow is not going to sacrifice the Armenian people because of it, just try and get leverage over him.

    Officially, Russia has good relations with Azerbaijan. And they've done much better PR work in Russia than Armenians have, with their oil money. Azeri oligarchs are tightly mixed in with Russian ones, Aliyev's daughter lives in Moscow and she and the whole clan are members of high society. In fact all of the Azeri upper class and plenty of its middle class maintain links with Russian society and own property there. Plenty of prominent Azeris in the Russian business, cultural, etc... spheres.
    You have Armenians as well in politics and the media, but they themselves don't seem to be that tied to Armenia or any of its ruling families; like Simonyan, who even took sides against Armenia not long ago for the revolution there.
    The Azeri intelligencia have always prized the Russian language, connections with Russia and have used it to put across their point of view, in the Caucasus and the rest of Russia.

    Azeri propaganda is everywhere, about Armenia turning pro-West, about Armenians occupying Sochi and Krasnodar Krai, soon declaring northern Armenia there. They're helped by various panturks and assorted nationalists. Already in Baskhiria which has undergone serious protests over the last several months - there have been attempts at provocations against Armenians, the ruling head of the republic is fast becoming unpopular, and his wife is Armenian which is increasingly being used as a propaganda point. Nevertheless I think the situation there is under control, nationalist sentiment is there but it's tempered by internationalism and the desire of the Bashkirs to gain support from the rest of Russia for their uprising.

    As a result the attitude of the average Russian who knows nothing about the situation and conflict is either - just make peace somehow and stop the killing, or fk it let them all vacate Moscow from both sides and fight down there.

    But nevertheless Russia is going to have to step in more openly. One can assume that Armenians are making full use of Russian intel, radar, satellite coverage that they get as a benefit of CSTO membership.
    In the preceding months there were as many joint military exercises between Russia and Armenia as there were between Turkey and Azerbaijan. So this tells you all you need to know about the true alliance structure.
    Many of the Russian border guards and personnel of the military base in Armenia are ethnic Armenians. Who knows they might be going on vacation already.
    But more needs to be done; the level of supply of Turkey and Israel to Azerbaijan is upsetting the balance and needs to be countered, at a minimum. Even if Russia also needs to maintain ties with and influence over Azerbaijan, to prevent them falling under the Turks completely. Already one of the Azeri generals has been removed at Turkish insistence, over having too many ties to Moscow.
    Hence why no public statements of Moscow against Azerbaijan.
    The aim should be a ceasefire then some sort of peace settlement; but not one that would in any way leave the Armenian populated districts of NKR at the behest of Baku; they have to be linked to Armenia proper. Everything else can and should be negotiable I think.
    I'm no expert but I don't think Armenia has a serious claim to the territory in between for example, the former district of Red Kurdistan, from where all the Kurds and Azeris were expelled in the 90s, even if that land was Armenian at some point in history. It's just held by Armenia now mainly for reasons of defense.

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Many of the Russian border guards and personnel of the military base in Armenia are ethnic Armenians. Who knows they might be going on vacation already.

    A gem in your post for those of us who have been around a while. The memories of MP.net refreshed. Laughing
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:35 pm

    @ Medo

    ".... Talk is cheap, but being quiet means something....."

    Disagree. Being quiet is cheap. Talk ( and action) means something. Reminds me of situation in Iran. With defeatist liberals in power. Keeping secrets from the people, about uncle scumbags attacks . So they can sell national interests, in favour of getting favourable trading terms. Or is it, in the case of Iranians, that they are playing with their balls?  Watching  persepolis Football . Reminds me of another Iranian ( a King), who was also busy playing with his balls ( playing polo), while a theif  stole Afghanistan away from Persia. Now they play with their balls, when caucases burns. Like Nero.

    @ python

    "...... And people also understand that having Turkey, which commited a genocide against Armenians a century ago, now fight Azerbaijan's war for it using flying killer robots and Syrian terrorists is not acceptable either......."

    But you said people don't understand. They are not informed. Only the elite understand. And they shut up about it. Information to them, is like money. They will privitise it. But agree, that there is a cultural problem with the Turks. The Armenians during this war, were able to defeat Azeri forces to get to karabag. But they stopped there. They could have advanced to take more territory. If they wanted territory alone. But they wanted security. Unfortunately, the Azeri territories were in the way. This is very different to Azeri position now. Akin to genocide. Extermination of ALL Armenians from territories. No doubt under tutelage from Turk fascistic culture.

    "........ The aim should be a ceasefire then some sort of peace settlement; but not one that would in any way leave the Armenian populated districts of NKR at the behest of Baku; they have to be linked to Armenia proper. Everything else can and should be negotiable I think. I'm no expert but I don't think Armenia has a serious claim to the territory in between for example, the former district of Red Kurdistan, from where all the Kurds and Azeris were expelled in the 90s, even if that land was Armenian at some point in history. It's just held by Armenia now mainly for reasons of defense..... "

    Agree with nice plans. But political forces on the ground in Azer, and also Armenia, not inclined to rationality. Only blind hatred. Political opportunism and subservience to NAZTO.  Thirty years and no solution. This must be imposed externally. Or their chickens will come to roost, in our homes.

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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:06 pm

    https://twitter.com/azpresident/status/1312734108775260163?s=20

    Southern flank of armenian forces in NK seems to be collapsed as Jabrayil town south to Xankendi (Stepanakert) is liberated by Azerbaijan Army.



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    Post  Armenian Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:19 pm

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:https://twitter.com/azpresident/status/1312734108775260163?s=20

    Southern flank of armenian forces in NK seems to be collapsed as Jabrayil town south to Xankendi (Stepanakert) is liberated by Azerbaijan Army.


    Share a video please, if you can. My friend is right now in Jabrayil. There wasn't even a push from Azeri side.

    I don't think you guys can win the war by taking villages on Twitter.

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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:27 pm

    If your friend is already on there, may send photos to us, proving it is up to date Smile

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 pm

    nomadski wrote:....What is needed, is active peacemaking. Overcoming political inertia. This whole problem can be solved quickly. Russia striking from North. Iran from South. Joining in the middle. Along present line of contact. Separating combatants. Not occupying land. Iran putting blockade against armaments in Caspian against the Usrael offensive heavy weapons, Russia in Black Sea. Alternative is NAZTO occupation of Caucases. Act now.

    This nonsense makes Tom Clancy sound coherent

    And seriously, you really think Iran would stick it's neck out for Nagorno Karabah?

    As always issue here for you folks is Israel and arms trade is shoddy reason to get pissed off about




    Armenian wrote:...But not even making a statement after Armenia itself is attacked?

    Armenia itself did nothing about either

    It got attacked but it didn't respond in kind, nothing in Azerbaijan was hit in retaliation, how is Russia supposed to interpret that?

    Legally speaking (and according to even Armenia itself) this conflict is still strictly INTERNAL Azeri issue

    Armenia isn't even sending it's military in Nagorno Karabah just some volunteers (who by definition are going on their own accord and aren't being sent anywhere by anyone)

    This all looks like Armenia still wants to play by EU rules and to check all the boxes that Brussels insists on (international law and all that nonsense) and to leave all the rule breaking, dirty work and ensuing bad rep to Russia

    Nobody would go with that

    Until Armenia finally commits, gets into the fight and starts striking back why should anything change?





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    Post  Armenian Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:36 pm

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:If your friend is already on there, may send photos to us, proving it is up to date Smile


    Well, it's your claim. Means that it needs to be proved by your side.

    PS. Sorry guys, I don't want to turn the thread into Azeri-Armenian shitshow here.
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    Tai Hai Chen


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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 13 Empty Re: 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

    Post  Tai Hai Chen Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:44 pm

    Armenia has already seen how Russia sold northern Syria to Turkey for S-400 deal. This is why Armenia will try to join NATO for protection, because they see Russia as unreliable as a security partner. Having said that, it is very likely, if Russia does not help Armenia considering there has been Azeri attacks on Armenia proper, Armenia will join NATO. Unlike Georgia, Armenia has no disputed territory considering Armenia does not recognize NK, there is nothing that can stop Armenia from joining NATO. Once the conflict is over, both Armenia and Azerbaijan will join NATO at the same time for peace just like Greece and Turkey both joined NATO at the same time for peace.
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    AbdulhamidtheSecond


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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:48 pm

    It is not my claim, it is Azerbaijan's president's claim.

    On the other hand your friend being there is solely your claim and it seems either your friend could not leave before Azerbaijan army came or left already, so any photos he could send do not provide any evidence that it is taken as of now.
    Isos
    Isos


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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:54 pm


    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    En réponse à
    @RALee85
    The Armenian MoD's Artsrun Hobhannisyan claimed that Azerbaijan was firing both Smerch and Polonez MLRS systems on Stepanakert. Ominously, he said "I call on the people of Azerbaijan to leave cities near military sites as soon as possible to avoid possible losses." 581/

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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1 - Page 13 Empty Re: 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

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