2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

After assessing the situation in Karabakh, NATO intelligence predicted Armenia's victory in the war with Azerbaijan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA7_-ykZqyQ

@SeigSoloyov

"....... This nothing more than an emotional drabble, the region is recognized worldwide as belonging to Azerijiban......."

It makes no difference, if the world believes the Earth is flat either. It is clear, what side controls or owns what territory. Unless the world acts in practice, to change the situation on the ground. And situation changes on the ground. Then the fact remains. And what is wrong with you? Who do criticise me, for thinking about the life of actual people on the ground?

The greater time that passed, since first change of territory, the less there is justification for return or recapture of territory. Because a new situation has developed on the ground. Exactly based on the actual life of people concerned.

Even if, we think that occupation exists, territory in dispute. Then military conquest by either side and territorial advances, creates more displaced people. More uncertainty about territoriality. Erdo and Co, have said that they will continue to fight, until Armenia , and hence all Armenians living in these areas, pack up and leave. Evacuate. Loose their homes. He did not say, that he wants a fair settlement and division of land.

Iran and Russia should stop any further ethnic cleansing. Forcible capture of territory by both sides. Escalation. Involvement by outside forces, to intensify fighting. Doing nothing is not an option. Otherwise the caucases will turn into a disaster zone, full of extremists and NAZTO forces, glad to break the land bridge in area, important for security and economic developments in region. Now that was cool headed enough for you?

nomadski wrote:
@SeigSoloyov

"....... This nothing more than an emotional drabble, the region is recognized worldwide as belonging to Azerijiban......."

It makes no difference, if the world believes the Earth is flat either.  It is clear,  what side controls or owns what territory. Unless the world acts in practice, to change the situation on the ground. And situation changes on the ground. Then the fact remains. And what is wrong with you?  Who do criticise me, for thinking about the life of actual people on the ground?

The greater time that passed, since first change of territory, the less there is justification for return or recapture of territory. Because a new situation has developed on the ground. Exactly based on the actual life of people concerned.

Even if, we think that occupation exists, territory in dispute. Then military conquest by either side and territorial advances, creates more displaced people. More uncertainty about territoriality. Erdo and Co, have said that they will continue to fight, until Armenia , and hence all Armenians living in these areas, pack up and leave. Evacuate. Loose their homes. He did not say, that he wants a fair settlement and division of land.

Iran and Russia should stop any further ethnic cleansing. Forcible capture of territory by both sides. Escalation. Involvement by outside forces, to intensify fighting. Doing nothing is not an option. Otherwise the caucases will turn into a disaster zone, full of extremists and NAZTO forces, glad to break the land bridge in area, important for security and economic developments in region. Now that was cool headed enough for you?

So you wanna drag Russia in a expensive regional war - just to protect Iran?

There is no attack on Armenia or an attack on Azerbaijcan.

This a internal Azeri affair. Like China in Hong Kong.

So you wanna drag Russia in a expensive regional war - just to protect Iran?

There is no attack on Armenia or an attack on Azerbaijcan.

This a internal Azeri affair. Like China in Hong Kong.

It won't be an expensive war for Russia. Just like in Georgia it will be quick. They will need 12 or so su-34 to destroy Azeri hardware and let them defenceless.

Turkey doesn't have the capacity to protect them with its f-16 that far away. F-16 are not for power projection.

Drones will have 0 value against Russia.

flamming_python wrote:

Maximmmm wrote:Today seemed to be more about political posturing than anything else.
We saw the joint US_France-Russia statement calling for peace and of course the Turkish rebuttal, there's the typical mud-slinging at the Armenian-Azeri level as well.

Thinking about it from a different perspective, maybe if this keeps going for a bit the west can finally be distracted from Navalny, Belarus and Nord-Stream2. Maybe we can even get around to restarting the construction of the final stretch while this goes on.

You guys all kidding yourselves.

This whole thing is from the same halls of power that gave us Navalny, Belarus and the Nord-Stream 2 cockblocking, and they'll find a way to blame Russia for this one too

Now Tabriz in Iran is protesting; South Azerbaijan province
https://twitter.com/ISCResearch/status/1311701645462573064
https://twitter.com/aydiniran/status/1311678039630270465
https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1311719017799921667

If Iran ends up with a seperatist conflict supported by Turkey-NATO and losses that territory; then Armenia's only remaining open border will be with NATO puppet Georgia. Hence Armenia will also be forced to become a NATO puppet; which explains Micron's feelers to it. And then united Azerbaijan will go over to NATO too and link up with Central Asia.

That's a big if though. Iran has enough inertia and cohesion to withstand destablization, not to mention an effective police apparatus.

Believe me I agree, but the media is too much like a chipmunk to keep a spotlight on all these issues at once. You can see it with the Navalny thing where they had to have him blame Putin directly to reignite any interest whatsoever.

Armenian army in Artzakh destroj Azerbaijani T-90.

This is a war Armenia started when it occupied land recognized by everyone including Russia has being part of another country, so Armenia will be fighting this war on their own.

But if we replace the Azers with Serbia and we make the Armenians Albanian they have ever right to make NK into their own little Kosovo, and the Azers are brutes for trying to oppress them... just because it has been Azer territory all this time, the people on the ground are Armenian so they should be allowed to succeed and join Armenia or at the very least become a new independent state like Kosovo was allowed.

Embedded video of Azi helicopter going down. Looking at the pattern of explosions I'd say it was armed.

https://sputniknews.com/world/202010021080638076-fireball--black-smoke-video-of-destruction-of-azerbaijani-helicopter-shared-by-armenian-side/

Embedded video of An-2 being hit. Who's SAM is unknown.

https://twitter.com/spriter99880/status/1311948540650946560

@ GarryB

Agree.  The Armenians had no choice in capturing  Azeri territory to " liberate"  Nagorno Karabag. Since it was not connected to Armenia proper. And the population there could not in isolation protect themselves. So at that time the UN, issued a few resolutions, calling on Armenia to end occupation of Azeri districts, that they captured.

These resolutions, simply called for end of occupation. Without addressing the cause of war. And finding realistic solution to ethnic conflict. In reality the UN, could do no more, at the time, without the agreement of both parties. But simply calling for end of occupation, did not address the concerns of Armenians or Azeris. Or provide a solution. So as such, it is devoid of value. Null and void.

The way to address the problem, is by  separating the populations and placing them in adjoining areas, respectively to both territories. So they are no isolated enclaves. Vulnerable to attack. So that is what is needed. A more practical and comprehensive situation, for the people. The old UN resolutions are useless.

@ johninmk

Too much is made of this pan-turkism. For example, someone posted video of small group of people  in a city in Iran, demonstrating in favour of Azerbaijan. But the caption wrongly identified then as Azeri Turks ! . In reality, they are Iranian Azeris. Azeris do not even understand the language spoken in Turkey. Totally different. Also the culture of Iranians is different to Turks. More subdued and socialised. Like the Greeks. The same goes for Turkmenistan. Different people. Each with distinct culture and identity. Iranian peoples are also dispersed in region. Share linguistic roots. But they are very different and distinct in other ways. Like Afghans and Iranians . Still all states have legitimate rights to have relations, with others. But there is no fear in that for us. I have both Azeri and Turkmen and Persian  ancestry. Have visited Turkey and Greece. Lived in Iran.

The argument that Armenia had to seize the land to protect people is absurd.

Azeri did not have guns to their heads, the people could have moved into Armenia considering its right next door.

Your logic is extremely one-sided and flawed, so a country has the right to annex parts of another country over an ethnic group, give me a break. If Armenia is so worried about those people, then they can tell Azeri. They want the land that is all.

"We will mass evacuate anyone who wants to leave first and after that is complete we will hand over the territory, so let's stop shooting each other".



Also if someone wants to bring up Kosovo oh sure, but I better not see those same people complaining say about the kurds wanting to do the same thing or any other situation.

If your going to sit there and say its okay for Armenia to do this under that guise then don't be a hypocrite and deny others the same right because you don't like it.

Man, that footage of the 32 ambushed Azerbaijani soldiers is rough. Looks like they were caught completely off guard. Some of them look like they were eating.

@ sieg

Of course, if a population feels threatened, it resorts to ethnic conflict. Separatism. But if you want land, that belongs to others too, you have to kill and die. We want to avoid that in the region. By political and economic management. For example in Syria, nobody can say that diverse groups now in camps, should be prematurely integrated. But integrated they will be. By careful industrial and civil capital investment, at borders of ethnic diverse areas. Leading to intermarriage. Coexistence. So a physical separation, does not mean political or economic separation. Or little cantons ruled by NAZTO warlords. This is Asia. Our home.

the Turks are untrustworthy scum .... i would never turn my back on them

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Yes. Otherwise It loses all legitimacy as an alliance.

An ally that doesnt protect you is useless.

Except Russia was turning Neo-Ottoman Turk soldiers in to tomato paste in Idlib when they tried to use their   Maxipads   manpads against Russian Hellducks.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The argument that Armenia had to seize the land to protect people is absurd.

Azeri did not have guns to their heads, the people could have moved into Armenia considering its right next door.

Your logic is extremely one-sided and flawed, so a country has the right to annex parts of another country over an ethnic group, give me a break. If Armenia is so worried about those people, then they can tell Azeri. They want the land that is all.

"We will mass evacuate anyone who wants to leave first and after that is complete we will hand over the territory, so let's stop shooting each other".



Also if someone wants to bring up Kosovo oh sure, but I better not see those same people complaining say about the kurds wanting to do the same thing or any other situation.

If your going to sit there and say its okay for Armenia to do this under that guise then don't be a hypocrite and deny others the same right because you don't like it.

No more self determination allowed.

franco wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The argument that Armenia had to seize the land to protect people is absurd.

Azeri did not have guns to their heads, the people could have moved into Armenia considering its right next door.

Your logic is extremely one-sided and flawed, so a country has the right to annex parts of another country over an ethnic group, give me a break. If Armenia is so worried about those people, then they can tell Azeri. They want the land that is all.

"We will mass evacuate anyone who wants to leave first and after that is complete we will hand over the territory, so let's stop shooting each other".



Also if someone wants to bring up Kosovo oh sure, but I better not see those same people complaining say about the kurds wanting to do the same thing or any other situation.

If your going to sit there and say its okay for Armenia to do this under that guise then don't be a hypocrite and deny others the same right because you don't like it.

No more self determination allowed.

That's the thing.

Self Determination was only allowed by Kosovo and it wasn't even self determination - it was NATO forces working with terrorist groups flooding into from Albania and the like, and gave them autonomy without a vote but with guns everywhere.

Crimea, people came out and protest against the Ukrainian events. People flooded the streets and protested the Ukie forces. Many other forces including Berkut along with Russian Marines garrisoned forced the Ukrainian forces to comply and either 1) leave or 2) join forces. Most Joined forces with Russia and the ones who didn't, left. People then voted and wanted to rejoin Russia. That somehow ended up illegal according to many even though the people followed UN law regarding self determination.

Yet, South Sudan was able to do essentially the same thing and got aid from others (Egypt for instance, Ethiopia for another example) and then faught for their independence from North Sudan. That was legal.

Essentially, what I am getting at is - self determination seems to be very selective depending on what the US approves and not approves.

A lot of bullshit.

franco wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The argument that Armenia had to seize the land to protect people is absurd.

Azeri did not have guns to their heads, the people could have moved into Armenia considering its right next door.

Your logic is extremely one-sided and flawed, so a country has the right to annex parts of another country over an ethnic group, give me a break. If Armenia is so worried about those people, then they can tell Azeri. They want the land that is all.

"We will mass evacuate anyone who wants to leave first and after that is complete we will hand over the territory, so let's stop shooting each other".



Also if someone wants to bring up Kosovo oh sure, but I better not see those same people complaining say about the kurds wanting to do the same thing or any other situation.

If you going to sit there and say its okay for Armenia to do this under that guise then don't be a hypocrite and deny others the same right because you don't like it.

No more self determination allowed.

Self-determination is fine and all, the only thing is people better apply the same standard to all regardless if they like it to not.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Yes. Otherwise It loses all legitimacy as an alliance.

An ally that doesnt protect you is useless.

Except Russia was turning Neo-Ottoman Turk soldiers in to tomato paste in Idlib when they tried to use their   Maxipads   manpads against Russian Hellducks.

Wrong the Russians have never targetted Turkish troops in Syria, they let the turks shoot Manpads are their planes and choppers with no price to pay.

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