2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

Ah...so Kosovo is "questionable" but Crimea isn't okay that answer is all I needed to see. That let me know how full of it you are

Ok, roach.

There are rules about disrespecting members.

People who do not follow such rules get breaks from the forum.

He is expressing his opinion and you are free to express yours, but lets keep it civil...

Now looks like self inflicted propaganda

So it was an attempt at a false flag attack... sounds like they are not getting the support from their allies that they were hoping for and want to raise the stakes to motivate them more...

That would have been a dumb escalation for Armenia to take but yes far as I know, the pipeline wasn't attacked.

Dumb to have destroyed them, not so dumb to fire warning shots... and with that follow up report sounds like they did neither...

Show me where in the soviet constitution it says that.

Also, let's not forget in 1997 Ukraine and Russia signed a friendship treaty in which Russia formally acknowledge Ukraine's sovereign control over Crimea.

So even if you want to argue the 1954 transfer was illegal the Russian Federations leadership at that time also acknowledged Crimea belongs to Ukraine. Treaties don't become invalid just because leadership changes either btw.

Populations are free to determine their own sovereignty, and the people of the Crimea exercised that right in 2014.

Show me where in the soviet constitution it says that.

Also, let's not forget in 1997 Ukraine and Russia signed a friendship treaty in which Russia formally acknowledge Ukraine's sovereign control over Crimea.

So even if you want to argue the 1954 transfer was illegal the Russian Federations leadership at that time also acknowledged Crimea belongs to Ukraine. Treaties don't become invalid just because leadership changes either btw.

The UN charter gives people the right to self-determination and by virtue of that right they are free to determine their political status.

Russia never formally canceled the treaty before the Crimea situation went down...even then it recognized Crimea has part of Ukraine.

The treaty did not say "Long as we agree to this treaty we recognize Crimea has part of Ukraine"

It said from that point onwards the Russian Federation sees Crimea as part of Ukraine.

These are two different situations.

At that time Russia recognised the Crimea as part of the Ukraine, but when the people of the Crimea voted to stop being part of the Ukraine and chose to join the Russian federation that changed... why is that so hard to understand?

I do not blame nor hold it against Russia for doing what it did, they took advantage of a situation.

HATO moved its bases closer to Russian soil and tried to get its hands on Sevastopol Naval base.

HATO can have the Ukraine, but the Crimean people chose to join the Russian federation which is their right... just the same as we keep hearing it is the right of european countries to join HATO if they want...

Indeed the overthrow of Yakin was illegal, sure he was corrupt but he was voted in legally. Plus all world leaders are corrupt, there is no innocent one amount the bunch.

He was making the best choice for his country and so he was illegally overthrown by the US and elements of the EU and HATO... you now have a bunch of rabid nazis who want to join HATO.... you must be so proud...

Not a problem for Russia or Crimea now...

However none of what happened changes the fact legally speaking Crimea is part of Ukraine. Like I said Ukraine will never get it back, but I am not going to turn a blind eye on the facts because of "feelings"

The Crimean people have the right to determine their own political future and they were given that opportunity and they made their choice which is perfectly legal outside of Washington and Brussels and London and Berlin and Paris because it does not suit their agenda... who cares about their view.

I will ask you one question then, do you see Kosovo as legal.

Kosovo was HATO moving in and supporting a terrorist coup. Kosovo was ethnic cleansing of the worst kind, and there was no referendum, just a declaration by people who did not represent the region.

It was an Annexation by HATO.

But the entire coup and what doesn't change the fact Russia recognized Crimea has part of Ukraine or the fact it's legally part of Ukraine.

Russia recognised the Crimea as being part of the Ukraine, but that is not set in stone forever because the people of the Crimea have the right to determine their own future and their own political status which they did in the mid 2010s and it was their decision to cut all ties with the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.

The Russian Federation accepted their request to join the Russian Federation and sour grapes from the west ever since...

Ah...so Kosovo is "questionable" but Crimea isn't okay that answer is all I needed to see. That let me know how full of it you are

There was nothing questionable about Kosovo at all.... HATO used its military power to force Serbs to leave Kosovo and allow a terrorist group to take over and continue the genocide, to be followed by a declaration of independence for the region... no vote, no referendum.

In the Crimea the Russians didn't fire a shot, they bombed and shelled no one and helped keep the peace with local support while the people decided via referendum... completely different and on the face of it if you claimed one was done by a former communist state that was an aggressive evil empire and the other was performed by the last great freedom loving democratic hyperpower I would think most people given the facts would be very confused as to which was which.

https://twitter.com/lextalioner/status/1314103302028759040?s=20

Yesterday an entire Armenian tank platoon has escaped from battlefield and leaving ALL of their tanks intact. In the video, seperatist flag can be seen clearly together with seperatist camouflages. Together with destroyed tank columns this week, seperatists have little to no combat effective armored units left in southern (Hocavend-Fuzuli-Cebrayıl) front.


https://twitter.com/lextalioner/status/1313878115119255552?s=20
And this comes from formerly seperatist HQ in Jebrayıl.


Seperatist southern front is collapsed. And seperatist infocenter try to cover it up by claiming tactical retreat.

If it is tactical, why to announce? LOL

I would like to say, that I hoped to agree with GarryB comments, about self - determination, as the final arbiter in settling nationality issues. Instead of old treaty or agreements.

But neither popular referendum nor legal treaty or war  can deal justly with territorial issues. Because all can be wrong.

For example, a territory can decide by vote to separate. And as consequence by law, decides to expel  40%, minority . Or to deny larger surrounding territory, access to sea, that it enjoyed before. Or ally itself with outside power, and change balance of power, and bring insecurity. All wrong. Although legal.

Treaties are even worse, usually made by transient governments or states. And also contain the errors  previously mentioned.

The solutions are far more nuanced and intricate. Needing an arbiter, neutral and moral. With correct historical and social perspective. To dish out in practice, the demands of justice.

Protecting the weak from the strong. Who is weak here, who strong ?

There is no law. There is power. As long as you can challange those who may wish to enforce, you break the law.

International law is the most overrated non sense in the world.

USA has thousands of nukes. Russia does too. But other countries would face an immense pressure if they try to build one. Noone dares to challenge the bigger powers. Because they are powerful.

France literally razed Algeria. Very weak sounds heard. Today, France dares to talk about humanity. In fact, they didnt lose anything from their barbarism, but they have some power to bend the truth.

Ukraine is weaker than Russia. If Ukraine was strong and Russia was weak, Crimea would be Ukrainian. In the past, it was Tatar. Because they were powerful enough to hold it.

Genghis Khan, destroyed Russia. Noone could challenge Genghis. So law was all by his.

Power dudes, it is power.

No. It is logic. What you say, must mean that the strong, feed on the weak. Slowly, as in exploitation. Or quickly, as in predation. Therefore in this exploitative relationship, the strong, will only remain strong, if there is the weak. But once the weak are destroyed, the strong are themselves destroyed.

Imagine we have A, B  and C. Three powers. We give them each a value, representing their power. If one goes to war, against another, then it gain in value, from the weaker side.

So if  A has a value 3. B  has a value of 2. And C a value of 1. Then if A attacks C, then A becomes 4. And C becomes 0. Then A  attacks B, and becomes 6. Then A itself destroyed. Total of 0.

But if B unites with C, becomes 3. Then A attacking B and C, becomes 0.  Therefore A, seeing this, will not attack B and C. A remains 3, B remains 2, C remains 1. A total of 6.

B uniting with C, against A, is protecting the weak against the strong. A non destructive or exploitative or racist culture. Different from Chenkiz or Hitler. Whose murderous rule was short.

The world was made with law.

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:There is no law. There is power. As long as you can challange those who may wish to enforce, you break the law.

International law is the most overrated non sense in the world.

USA has thousands of nukes. Russia does too. But other countries would face an immense pressure if they try to build one. Noone dares to challenge the bigger powers. Because they are powerful.

France literally razed Algeria. Very weak sounds heard. Today, France dares to talk about humanity. In fact, they didnt lose anything from their barbarism, but they have some power to bend the truth.

Ukraine is weaker than Russia. If Ukraine was strong and Russia was weak, Crimea would be Ukrainian. In the past, it was Tatar. Because they were powerful enough to hold it.

Genghis Khan, destroyed Russia. Noone could challenge Genghis. So law was all by his.

Power dudes, it is power.

That is the way the USA acts but it pretends that it follows some "law" or "morality".

As for Crimea, it did not have the power in 1991 to prevent Ukraine from annexing it. Russia was too weak to stand up to the yanquis who had their
eyes on it as a NATzO base. Yeltsin was a good bootlick. So power is not just about direct military force, it is also about sycophants, quislings
and 5th columnists.

Does the word 'caldron' ring bells from a previous war? Is Russian training and tactics a common factor?

Spriter
@spriter99880
·
20h
Approximate map of control in Nagorno Karabakh.



Spriter
@spriter99880
·
18h
Jabrayily-south NK
Stupid Azeris and even stupider tactics led by Tr.

Precision strike on Ghazanchetsots Cathedral in Shushi: https://t.me/wargonzo/3670

Indications it was NATO ordinance delivered by a Turkish F-16: https://twitter.com/301_AD/status/1314225023264190464

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfkgDT9rOjU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQ2Fa6GuF4

The Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict Could Spiral Into a Proxy War

Half of Nagorno-Karabakh Displaced by Fighting

How Rivals Turkey, Israel, and Pakistan Ended Up Siding With Azerbaijan Iran's Rouhani Slams Sending Fighters to Nagorno-Karabakh Iran Warns 'Terrorists' Near Border in Karabakh Fighting France Accuses Turkey of Military Involvement in Karabakh In Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict, Erdogan Eyes Turkey's 'Place in World Order' Nagorno-Karabakh Says Death Toll Among Its Military Rises to 320 Since Start of Conflict   US, France, and Russia to Hold Talks on Nagorno-Karabakh   As Karabakh Conflict Expands, Israel-Azerbaijan Arms Trade Thrives

Looks like Turkey instigated Azerbaijan to start the conflict. It is openly meddling. And it can't be trusted not to suck up to the Americans
to screw Russia over. If Armenia was all that bad it would be invading the Azeri exclave in the south-west. I have never heard of any
fighting in this region. The Azeris should grow some decency and late NK go. Instead the want greater Azerbaijan. I bet they want to
grab a land bridge to their exclave. Turkey would love that since it facilitates the contiguity of the greater Turkey project.

Would Serbia let Kosovo go?

Would China let Taiwan go?

Would Palestine let Palestine itself go?

Im sorry but it is BS.

Irrespective of  Iranian historical links to caucases , this area remains of vital national interest to Iran, in terms of land and air and sea link to it's important trading partner, the Russians to the North, and Europe itself.

An expansion of NATO, in the region,  together with Turkish expansionism into Azer territory and even Armenia, means that vital caspian sea trade routes can and will be compromised for Iran and Russia. Together with ethnic instability in Iran.

Irrespective of what Armenian or Azeri leaderships, do or say, what kamasutra position they adopt with NATO,  a military  build up of NATO, and bases by Turkey in the caucases, can not be tolerated. Since it is clear, the objective is  military occupation of REGION. Blockade from the North.


I think, Iran should attack all NATO forces in caucases and drive them out. Otherwise it will be blockaded in PG region. By NATO and Turkey in Qatar. And blockaded in caucases and Caspian by NATO and Turkey.

Iran should give priority to this trade route to Europe. Instead of the Iraq / Syria / Lebanon / Med route. This supply line is far longer and needs far greater logistics and support.

Securing a route through caucases is relatively easier. It is a matter of national survival, that Turks  military and malign influence are physically driven out. And we join Russia physically. By land and sea.  Buck the Turks. NATO suckers. We can trade with Europe. Let the Yanks take them up the assets.

I don't care, what Armenian or Azeri or anyone else says. We can not romance them, away from NATO. We must kick them out. Iran should get ready to cross border. Kill as many imported Rats, Turks, NATO scumbags present there.

I hope nobody gets upset by this.

The behavior of the Armenian leadership speaks of a turning point in the war

This reminds me of the Korean War- almost all of the ROK was taken, then most of NK was taken, then all NK was retaken by the PRC.
IMO we see just the 1st stage of this war.
https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3084292.html

kvs wrote:Looks like Turkey instigated Azerbaijan to start the conflict.   It is openly meddling.   And it can't be trusted not to suck up to the Americans
to screw Russia over.    If Armenia was all that bad it would be invading the Azeri exclave in the south-west.   I have never heard of any
fighting in this region.   The Azeris should grow some decency and late NK go.   Instead the want greater Azerbaijan.   I bet they want to
grab a land bridge to their exclave.   Turkey would love that since it facilitates the contiguity of the greater Turkey project.

Yup. And with the regular strikes on Stepanakert and now the cathedral in Shushi, Azerbaijan could very well see whatever patience and restraint that has been shown by other countries thus far (both by Russia and the West) quickly evaporate. The mounting evidence tying their military engagement to Turkey, especially the involvement of Turkish F16's, as well as the recruitment of jihadist elements in their fight is going to seriously threaten the pass Azerbaijan has thus far reluctantly been given. If they continue destroying whatever diplomatic/legal credibility they might have enjoyed up till now, they may soon find both East and West united in their condemnation. Though I suspect some, perhaps in the Sultan's circles, may be relishing the prospect of further pushing the clash of civilisations.

Even if Armenia recognises NK , and asks formally for help. Russia comes to aid. Stops NATO advance into Armenia. Still NATO supply Azer by air and land and sea, by Georgia and across Caspian from Central Asia. So yes, just start.........

"New Video Reveals How Syrian Militants Are Being Recruited To Fight For Azerbaijan."

Sunni's coming to fight on the side of Shia's, who would have thought. But in reality these are just NATO-Turkish-Israeli mercenaries.



https://southfront.org/new-video-reveals-how-syrian-militants-are-being-recruited-to-fight-for-azerbaijan/

nomadski wrote:
Even if Armenia recognises NK , and asks formally for help. Russia comes to aid. Stops NATO advance into Armenia. Still NATO supply Azer by air and land and sea, by Georgia and across Caspian from Central Asia. So yes, just start.........

I think this argument of a looming Nato to Russia's south and pan-Turkistan stretching all the way across the Caspian pushes things to much to the extreme and is the sort of hype the West would love to gaslight. Russia need not fall for that for two reasons. First, if it's what the people want, then fine. who is to say otherwise. Like I said before, Russia has no need to and shouldn't behave like a bully like the US.

Secondly, small nations should not dictate the agenda of global powers, even though they try (sometimes successfully too like Israel does to the US, but Israel also has good relations with Russia). As has been mentioned previously, this is how these powers end up being drawn into conflict over crap and how world wars end getting up started. The tail wagging the dog. Threatening Nato membership should be seen for what it is by Russia as blatant blackmail. Again, it shows there's no deep affinity for alliance with Russia... it's all just a matter of national interests and practicality.

For Russia to spend blood and treasure trying to force Armenia and its shifty politics to stay within its orbit would be very stupid. There is no way Armenia's accession to Nato is gonna happen in any foreseeable future even if Russia continues to remain restrained in the face of direct Turkish/Azerbaijani escalation. Only in fantasyland can people assume Armenia getting into Nato is within the realm of the remotest possibility for so many reasons, without Russia even trying to stop it from happening. So please let's just kill that talk.

Further, what's the big issue even if? The whole Caucasus could make that play for all Russia should care. Let that shitstorm be the US' and Nato's problem, much like the quagmire they found themselves in Afghanistan and Iraq. Russia doesn't even need to build a wall like Trump has to, the Caucasus Mountains is its own natural barrier. Seal the passes (as was done with Georgia) and that's that.

There's just no strategic value in imposing itself in a region it is looked at with much chagrin and suspicion. This isn't like pre-WWII. Russia should just let countries recognise on their own the value in dealing with her rather than trying to buy/force good relations with them at a high price with no real guarantees.

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Would Serbia let Kosovo go?

Would China let Taiwan go?

Would Palestine let Palestine itself go?

Im sorry but it is BS.

WTF are you going on about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

Armenians were in this region earlier than 200 BC.

BTW, most of modern day Turkey did not exist as Turkish land before the 1400s. So if you are going to claim that NK is not Armenian, then
anyone can claim that most of Turkey is not Turkish.

kvs wrote:

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Would Serbia let Kosovo go?

Would China let Taiwan go?

Would Palestine let Palestine itself go?

Im sorry but it is BS.

WTF are you going on about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

Armenians were in this region earlier than 200 BC.  

BTW, most of modern day Turkey did not exist as Turkish land before the 1400s.   So if you are going to claim that NK is not Armenian, then
anyone can claim that most of Turkey is not Turkish.

Annnnnnnnnnnnd by this moronic standard, Since Japan was in the Kurils first Russia should hand over the Kurils back to its historical owners.

Japan does want that land back btw.

There's just no strategic value in imposing itself in a region it is looked at with much chagrin and suspicion.

Turkey controls the Bosporus; if it gets control &/ influence of/in the S. & E. Caspian coasts of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan & Turkmenistan, for all intents & purposes Russia & Iran would be even more constrained & outflanked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVckrQeouTQ 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCQlY-xAF9Y

https://youtu.be/NzRmJFYwx9o?t=837

I'm afraid that Armenians r going to become like Assyrians: a great warrior nation scattered around the world with no state of their own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7uYPoC5Xe8

Since Japan was in the Kurils first Russia should hand over the Kurils back to its historical owners.

no, the Ainus r natives there & on the Sakhalin. They r the original inhabitants of Japan, but there r now too few of them left & most r not fool blooded.

Oooo so you pick and choose the conditions in which it's acceptable. Conditions that favor your case also.

Biased hyprocrites~

Learn history before posting shallow arguments that don't hold water. Most of W. Turkey is populated by Islamaicised Greeks, so by the same token Greece should get that area & Turkey should stop claiming Greek islands off that coast. For the Turks, might makes right. They were pushed out from C. Asia by Chinese & Mongols & it took them a few 100 years to finally take Constantinopol, ME & N. Africa. The Ottoman Empire lasted only 500 years on the ruins of much older civilizations; now Erdogan is in the process of reclaiming some of its past glory. If any1 is Islamofascist, its him & his party, just like Mussolini who tried to recreate the Roman Empire in the Med. Sea & N. Africa.

@ parfar

Great YouTube video. Shows what role these Rats want to play, in our backyard. Absolutely the enemy has hijacked a social issue, a point of disagreement between Armenia and Azer republics. To stage a war. Where they will aggravate the war. Increase intensity. Stop reconciliation. In order to get both states under control of NATO, aka  Yanks and NATO / erredDOGgone / ZIONAZI. To stop economic development, stop Iran, China and Russia. The silk Road.

I think Iran is doing covert work. Not sure what this is. But one move can be by Iran and Russia to form a secondary defensive line, behind the line of contact, inside Armenia. This line can be a fallback line, to a position, where Azeri occupied territory is released, ( not NK, or land bridge to it from Armenia), by Armenian withdrawal, by force or negotiation. This way Iran not engaged in hand to hand fighting. But insures security of Armenia against Turkish / Rat / ZIONAZI  advances, deeper into Armenian territory.

Also Iran can prepare a naval blockade force, to put sea blockade against NAZTO Rats, from getting any Israeli heavy weapon. If NAZTO does not stop by Iran defensive line in Armenia, then blockade to put in force. Also troops can travel along Azer / Georgian border, to stop air and land shipment from Turkey NAZTO Rats, from Georgia. This force needs to be ready.

NK and area connecting to Armenia, is Armenian territory. Since Armenians live there. It is NOT
ISLAMIC territory or Azeri territory . The political leadership in Iran, need to recognise NK as Armenian territory. As well as area around this as Azeri territory.

Once this  " Armenian occupation"  is resolved. Fairly, and in the eyes of the public. Then Iranian hands are free to confront the scum in the caucases. Send special forces to take out Rats in R. AZER territory ITSELF. AND Turkish RAT military Brass and.........NAZTO Rats in Armenia..... Clean area...