2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #1

Tsavo Lion wrote:Learn history before posting shallow arguments that don't hold water. Most of W. Turkey is populated by Islamaicised Greeks, so by the same token Greece should get that area & Turkey should stop claiming Greek islands off that coast. For the Turks, might makes right. They were pushed out from C. Asia by Chinese & Mongols & it took them a few 100 years to finally take Constantinopol, ME & N. Africa. The Ottoman Empire lasted only 500 years on the ruins of much older civilizations; now Erdogan is in the process of reclaiming some of its past glory. If any1 is Islamofascist, its him & his party, just like Mussolini who tried to recreate the Roman Empire in the Med. Sea & N. Africa.

Arrow wrote:This conflict shows how effective weapons are drones that massacre Armenian troops and their equipment.

Isos wrote:
Agree but the AD is poor. If they had 50 pantsir it would be better for them and Azeri would run out of drones pretty fast.

If they also used their su-30SM to get total air superiority they could hunt drone control complexes. And they could destroy azeri il-76 that brings drones from israel and turkey.

JohninMK wrote:

Isos wrote:
Agree but the AD is poor. If they had 50 pantsir it would be better for them and Azeri would run out of drones pretty fast.

If they also used their su-30SM to get total air superiority they could hunt drone control complexes. And they could destroy azeri il-76 that brings drones from israel and turkey.

Trouble is the Azeri have SAMs of all kinds, from S-300 to MANPADs coming out of their ears, to quote a phrase.

Isos wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Isos wrote:
Agree but the AD is poor. If they had 50 pantsir it would be better for them and Azeri would run out of drones pretty fast.

If they also used their su-30SM to get total air superiority they could hunt drone control complexes. And they could destroy azeri il-76 that brings drones from israel and turkey.

Trouble is the Azeri have SAMs of all kinds, from S-300 to MANPADs coming out of their ears, to quote a phrase.

They have like 1 S-300 and 2-3 Buk. They can be destroyed by a coordinated attack of iskander-toshka, drones and ...

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:There is no law. There is power. As long as you can challange those who may wish to enforce, you break the law.

International law is the most overrated non sense in the world.

USA has thousands of nukes. Russia does too. But other countries would face an immense pressure if they try to build one. Noone dares to challenge the bigger powers. Because they are powerful.

France literally razed Algeria. Very weak sounds heard. Today, France dares to talk about humanity. In fact, they didnt lose anything from their barbarism, but they have some power to bend the truth.

Ukraine is weaker than Russia. If Ukraine was strong and Russia was weak, Crimea would be Ukrainian. In the past, it was Tatar. Because they were powerful enough to hold it.

Genghis Khan, destroyed Russia. Noone could challenge Genghis. So law was all by his.

Power dudes, it is power.

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:

Isos wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Isos wrote:
Agree but the AD is poor. If they had 50 pantsir it would be better for them and Azeri would run out of drones pretty fast.

If they also used their su-30SM to get total air superiority they could hunt drone control complexes. And they could destroy azeri il-76 that brings drones from israel and turkey.

Trouble is the Azeri have SAMs of all kinds, from S-300 to MANPADs coming out of their ears, to quote a phrase.

They have like 1 S-300 and 2-3 Buk. They can be destroyed by a coordinated attack of iskander-toshka, drones and ...

The problem with that is intel. Azerbaijan uses coordinated tactics and jumping EW to counter signal intelligence. And use mobility to counter visual or rehearsal intelligence (if any exist). In both cases, Armenian side does not have adequate equipment or capability.

Today Aliyev spoken clearly, no statusquo, either leave or be forced to leave. This is for Armenian military, NOT locals. In fact, many Armenians are now under Azerbaijani control, and they are not forced by any means to leave.

Armenia can only wish and demand humanitarian rights for people of NK, but what they are doing at the moment is to occupy piece of land that even they do not recognize as Armenia or any other state other than Azerbaijan, this is clearly an occupation.

Maximmmm wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Let us be a little more logical here.

Russia is playing its cardinal card in the Lesser Caucasus. If they let Azerbaijan take over Artsakh, then Armenia can directly push for a PP with NATO. Same story as with Georgia, but with extra spice as it would give the US a direct border with Iran and render the Russian SYRIAN B-route through the Caspian all but impracticable. This means a lot of shit sanwich for everybody. Iran, Turkey and Russia. Which would have a straight up open front with Georgia over YO and ABK while having a better strategic depth. If you think this is what the Russians want to deal with, then you are seriously misunderstanding the long term consequences of an Azeri Artsakh. It's a neutering of Armenia ala Serbia. Imagine the issues Serbia has regarding Kosovo, but with Armenia. The problem is that there's not enough cash in the fucking planet to apease the Armenians if they suffer an ethnic cleansing from Artsakh. This is going to lead to evacuation of Guymri, whic his the Russian trump card in keeping both Turkey and Georgia in check.

As for internal conflict, please man, please. That conflict exists already in Russia with a bunch of "formers" beating the shit out of eachother when they can.

Azeri territory, not really, FFS one of the biggest Soviet crimes of the Gorby era was the supression of Nakhchevan which was cleansed under the Soviet leadership. Similarly the Artsakh situation was poorly handled by Russia mostly because its bling apoplexia over the Chechen conflict and its spillover.

Russia is lucky Armenia has litterally nothing going for itself and that the cost of babysitting Armenia might be the biggest issue for new Western Sugar daddies, but for the US the rewards are huge. It can throat Iran, be a continuous nuisance for Russia and grow like a bad case of fungus in the region and who knows even take out Alyiev. That means a bigh puddle of shit for every one in the Caspian.

If Russia wants to turn the Caspian from a Russian lake into a shit lake, be my guest.

I don't believe that random countries get to ride out a free lunch just because they exist in a geostrategic location.
If Armenia commits to a pro-Russian political leaning from now on, ok maybe we can have some discussion, at this point they have nothing they can claim from us.
We have said that we will fulfil our treaty obligations but since NK isn't a part of Armenia, any fighting there isn't covered by the treaty.
Why do you think the Armenians haven't recognized NK as part of Armenia and called for treaty obligations or openly called for Russian peacekeepers? Because they want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want to be beholden to Moscow and think that they can just get a free ride. Thankfully our government isn't falling for it.
I think you're heavily over-estimating what NATO can do here. First of all Turkey won't allow Armenia to ever be a member. Secondly, while they can certainly try, any crocodile tears about Russia not helping are meaningless until they formally request help.
Moscow needs to stop falling for the machinations of all these little men in little capitals.
Finally as others have said, we are certainly beefing up their security.

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:

The problem with that is intel. Azerbaijan uses coordinated tactics and jumping EW to counter signal intelligence. And use mobility to counter visual or rehearsal intelligence (if any exist). In both cases, Armenian side does not have adequate equipment or capability.

Today Aliyev spoken clearly, no statusquo, either leave or be forced to leave. This is for Armenian military, NOT locals. In fact, many Armenians are now under Azerbaijani control, and they are not forced by any means to leave.

Armenia can only wish and demand humanitarian rights for people of NK, but what they are doing at the moment is to occupy piece of land that even they do not recognize as Armenia or any other state other than Azerbaijan, this is clearly an occupation.

Isos wrote:

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:

The problem with that is intel. Azerbaijan uses coordinated tactics and jumping EW to counter signal intelligence. And use mobility to counter visual or rehearsal intelligence (if any exist). In both cases, Armenian side does not have adequate equipment or capability.

Today Aliyev spoken clearly, no statusquo, either leave or be forced to leave. This is for Armenian military, NOT locals. In fact, many Armenians are now under Azerbaijani control, and they are not forced by any means to leave.

Armenia can only wish and demand humanitarian rights for people of NK, but what they are doing at the moment is to occupy piece of land that even they do not recognize as Armenia or any other state other than Azerbaijan, this is clearly an occupation.

Azeri keep shooting down their own drones. Their ground forces openly go in simple traps getting killed in huge numbers.

Their only advantage are drones but they are emptying their stocks quickly.

They clearly have no intel' about Armenian military moves.

Turkey has no more intel either.

Isos wrote:Then why Azeri have seized like no ground since two weeks ? Why do they loose much more men than Armenia ?

Everything I say is documented...

flamming_python wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
Annnnnnnnnnnnd by this moronic standard, Since Japan was in the Kurils first Russia should hand over the Kurils back to its historical owners.

Japan does want that land back btw.

The Ainu?

They've all been assimilated by the Japs or very nearly so

Which I guess means that the Japanese are their inheritors

But then they shouldn't have started and then lost the war, should have they now?

The Kurils were a colonial possession for Japan, whatever Japanese lived there were repatriated by Stalin. Forcibly repatriated.

kvs wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
Annnnnnnnnnnnd by this moronic standard, Since Japan was in the Kurils first Russia should hand over the Kurils back to its historical owners.

Japan does want that land back btw.

The Ainu?

They've all been assimilated by the Japs or very nearly so

Which I guess means that the Japanese are their inheritors

But then they shouldn't have started and then lost the war, should have they now?

The Kurils were a colonial possession for Japan, whatever Japanese lived there were repatriated by Stalin. Forcibly repatriated.

Hokkaido was devoid of Japanese until the 1800s.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint_Petersburg_(1875)

Japan got the Kurile islands as possessions in 1875.  

The above requires context since SS the yanqui moron will just make up "laws" and "rights" on the spot to spam this board with his BS.
Canada was exchanged between France and the UK more than once.   The British seized New France in 1760 and France chose to
keep the profitable sugar trade operations in the Caribbean instead of the Canadian wilderness in the treaty of Paris in 1763.  

So Japan cannot claim that Hokkaido and the Kurile Islands are some ancestral land.   The possession flipped for various reasons just
like many other such cases going back to ancient history.   Should France be demanding Canada back as its "ancestral land"?
And we see the hypocrisy above about NK where the fact that it is ancestral Armenian land is summarily ignored.

Iran’s delicate balancing act in the South Caucasus

US, France, Russia Meet as Karabakh Fighting Continues
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Maximmmm wrote:...The funniest thing is Pasha called for Macron to recognize NK, but Armenia doesn't recognize it themselves

PapaDragon wrote:

Maximmmm wrote:...The funniest thing is Pasha called for Macron to recognize NK, but Armenia doesn't recognize it themselves

Lunch lady at my school would have been doing his job better...    



ALSO:

Azeri AA units intercepted Armenian ballistic missile near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline

https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5550413.html



Armenian forces have been using good old Zastava M55 AAA gun

Fortunately they have been using them in their proper role: anti-infantry

https://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2020/10/55.html

nomadski wrote:@ Maximmmm

Disagree. Even during 30 years, they were incapable to solve issue. Now worse, because Turkey and NATO, benefit by prolonging war, to put Azer and possibly Armenia in NATO bag.

The interests of the people in Caucases, Iran and Russia and beyond, can not be  served by  puppets in Baku, or vacillating wannabe  join the clubs  in Armenia.

Occupation by Turkey and  NATO, consequence of inaction by Iran and Russia. Military solution to be imposed on the ground. NATO troops and sympathisers are POW.

QED.