2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-54900906

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV95Oc_iL1o

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:Protest in Armenia getting bigger by the minute. Pushinyan is done. Pushinyan will be replaced by a pro west man. I can see Belarus and Armenia out of Russian sphere by next year.

Wrong again Chicken Little, protestors were destroying Soro's Foundation offices in Yerevan.

https://twitter.com/301_AD/status/1326254237391720449

Keep twisting the facts to suit your narrative, your hero Pussynian was a Pro-West cum dumpster.

Chicken Little Ultron eating crow, RFERL offices were attacked by protestors in Yerevan.

About 40 young man attacked the headquarters of the Armenian service of @RFERL, journalist Artak Hambardzumyan, cameramen Mesropyan were beaten up @RSF_inter @CPJ_Eurasia @amnesty
https://twitter.com/ditord/status/1325973831115304962

Regular wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Kazakhs eyeing Orenburg?  Are you high flaming?  Cause not only have I never heard that, but Kazakhstan is rather sparsely populated vs its entire region.  I mean, there is an airbase nearby Orenburg that is Russian that would make short work of any kind of Kazakh military movement. The though of that is hilarious though.  Lol
Or is this another one of those western funded rumors like China going to invade Siberia?

I doubt any country is able to challenge Russian territory conventionally. Even Crimea is out of the question.

Kazakhstan has nothing to threaten Russia - it would be shooting practice for Russians knowing the terrain in the region.

Shooting practice with very long pauses, that whole place is almost empty

Russian Ministry of Defense on the peacekeeping operation in Nagorno-Karabakh



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4185411.html

The Russian reaction, overall 90% good and effective. In controlling the conflict. Displayed force at sea and showed ready troops at Armenian border. Plus, few flights over Caspian into Iran and Armenia to show support. Can continue with same tactics. Slight problem with delay in taking decisive action, of demarcation of fighting forces. Drawing line in sand. Since a few settled Armenian Town, lost.

The Iranian reaction seems insufficient. 30 % good and effective. Could have crossed border near Azer/ Arm border. Advance 2 km. To send signal to Azer / Turk side, against attacking Armenia. Could have sent special forces to hunt Rats. Could have targeted artillery hitting Iranian soil.

Many here say what should happen now. But forget that events are independent of our wishes. There is a reason for Caucases being fragmented. It is the geography. It is a cross roads of civilizations. In this area, best result, can only be, small mini- states or city states. Independent.

Armenians will necessarily form a security pact with Russia and Iran. Otherwise they cease to exist. If they are poor, still their defences can be helped with advisers from Russia and Iran. Cost nothing to Iran or Russia. No strings attached.

PapaDragon wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Absolute gangster move by Russia.
26 years not being able to get into NK and finally there.

For everyone saying why should Russia get involved? Well now Russia has a tripwire in Artsakh.
Pash as a collateral damage...this is so  cold.

Told ya'

Modern geopolitics is one cold nasty bitch

All those Ex-Soviet states assume that old USSR emotional approach that they all complained about still applies when it suits them and that something is owed to them by Russia/World/God/Cosmos

They just can't wrap their heads around the fact that they are not as important and indispensable as they think they are

I actually said this myself.
I just didn't think that Russia would let this get so bad before intervention.

kvs wrote:So Russia sending in peacekeepers is a gangster move, eh?

Wow, such BS it is right off the meter.   If Russia did not take any action there would have been no NK and local Armenians left.
As usual we see the demented double standards applied to Russia.   Pussynians whoring for Russia's enemies is supposedly
a total non-issue and certainly not a "gangster move", but Russia securing a peace deal when Pussynian's Armenia did precisely
fuck all to save NK is in the wrong.  

Seriously, put the crack pipe down.  What is it with you Blakanoids.   You want Turkish rule so badly, do you?

That kind of makes sense.  

Yes Russia could have shown the goods, Blasted couple of drones out of the sky with its AF from Erebuni, and if the Azeris or Turks would have shot down that one, make them taste some kalibr for shits and giggles.
Instead they let Turks operate almost freely vs Armenia.

You little buggers were saying it isn't Russia's business (i can quote all the official position gang) while it WAS since the get go, but Russia used it cynically to bring pash down. This is the gangster move. Because it let young men die for what is basically a power move.

Also this isn't a peace deal you mongrel, it's a cease fire that will absolutely back fire in medium term. However, now Russia has boots on the ground which is what it was expecting for ages.

Wanting Russia to blast Turkoshaks is wanting Turks to rule? Oh wow you folks make as much sense as Erdogan.

I still don't see how this a victory for Russia.

Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.

I don't quite see evidence that Armenia tried to come closer to Nato, or the West. Even if the current political leadership try it, its what we call in Portugal, foam from the drink. It's just political manauvers on the daily basis. Today Armenia has this PM, tomorrow it can elect another. We must see things in the long run.

My point is: Turkey who had no saying in that region has a strong saying now. And no matter how we see it, the Armenian populaion will leave NK for good, as there living conditions there will be impossible. So basically, a Turkish-Muslin country conquered some territoy to Indo European-Christian country.

Can't grasp any shred of victory here. Zero.

Hope I'm wrong.

Very good deal from Mr. Putin.

Like i said from the beginning of this conflict; Russia and Turkey would gain the most.

- Russia gains international presitige as peacemaker and will have boots in NK.
- Armenia is saved from extinction and more embaressment
- Azerbajcan showed his strenght and get lost lands back
- Turkey showed the world again their superiour drone-fleet (like in Syria and Libya) and is now definitely a player in the Caucasus.

Pacense wrote:I still don't see how this a victory for Russia.

Boots on the ground costs money, and I don't quite see how Armenia is going to pay back that support.

I don't quite see evidence that Armenia tried to come closer to Nato, or the West. Even if the current political leadership try it, its what we call in Portugal, foam from the drink. It's just political manauvers on the daily basis. Today Armenia has this PM, tomorrow it can elect another. We must see things in the long run.

My point is: Turkey who had no saying in that region has a strong saying now. And no matter how we see it, the Armenian populaion will leave NK for good, as there living conditions there will be impossible. So basically, a Turkish-Muslin country conquered some territoy to Indo European-Christian country.

Can't grasp any shred of victory here. Zero.

Hope I'm wrong.

100% wrong actually.

KoTeMoRe wrote:This is the gangster move. Because it let young men die for what is basically a power move....

There's nothing wrong in calling it a gangster move, that's what geopolitics is

And it was Pasha who was letting young men die while he was on the phone with Brussels and giving Russia a stink eye

Plus I'd like to reiterate yet again that Armenia never recognized Nagorno Karabah and never deployed it's military because they didn't want to break any taboos but they had no ​problem expecting Russia to break them on their behalf

Also let's not forget that it was Armenia who kept refusing any Russia brokered solution for past several decades while completely neglecting it's defenses and ditching only country that could save their asses

The Ottoman wrote:Very good deal from Mr. Putin.

Like i said from the beginning of this conflict; Russia and Turkey would gain the most.

- Russia gains international presitige as peacemaker and will have boots in NK.
- Armenia is saved from extinction and more embaressment
- Azerbajcan showed his strenght and get lost lands back
- Turkey showed the world again their superiour drone-fleet (like in Syria and Libya) and is now definitely a player in the Caucasus.

Not so sure about Turkey. Or Russia
Armenia actually consolidates a small part and can start its reforging.

Azerbaijan gave it all and came short of its goal.

Who won the war in Karabakh?

Indeed, who won the conflict in Karabakh? Nominally, it turns out that Azerbaijan. Not really. Azerbaijan lost this war - and quite unexpectedly. And now you can comfort yourself as much as you like with the fact of acquiring land by, let's say, sudden, but prepared aggression. But the fact is that the results of the war were very, very unpredictable.

Everyone pursued their own goals

It is a fact that Azerbaijan was winning this war "with a clear advantage", while official Yerevan was engaged in processes that are difficult to understand and, in fact, simply let everything go by itself.

The fact that the NKR "army" was unable to cope with the Azerbaijani armed forces, and even with the support of Turkey, is understandable.

The fact that Armenia stubbornly waited, that Russia was about to intervene and begin to defend its ... ally, this is also obvious. The Internet is now replete with statements like: "We were betrayed!" (performed by Armenians).

But you must agree, all these people who, on the night of the signing of the ceasefire, smashed state buildings, beat the deputies and performed other "feats", why did they heroic in Yerevan and not in Shusha?

However, nothing surprising. It happens so often. For throwing a stone at the window of a house is much easier than throwing a grenade at a tank, for example.

So no complaints about the parties: each pursued its own goals.

Another question: who got what?

Azerbaijan (as I said) received the territories of three regions. In general, this is more a political moment than an economic one. Because the history of the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan in Karabakh goes back more than a hundred years.

However, having received territories, has Baku solved the Karabakh problem as a whole? No! Moreover, there is now a situation (which we will talk about below), which, in general, nullifies everything.

Now about Armenia in more detail. In short: Yerevan was not just losing the war, but with a bang. The NKR army has practically ceased its resistance, and official Yerevan practically lied that “everything is under control”.

As a result, in this situation (when Yerevan sat and waited for Moscow's intervention and did nothing at all), the defeat was assured. In theory, Armenia was heading towards the loss of all Karabakh.

Pilots Major Yuri Viktorovich Ischuk and Senior Lieutenant Roman Vasilyevich Fedin actually saved the inevitable defeat in Karabakh at the cost of their lives.

And now no one in Armenia can get away from this.

The “miraculous” (and no other word comes to mind) rescue of the NKR happened precisely due to the very strange situation with the Russian helicopter.

Now many have thrown themselves into conspiracy theories. They began to ask themselves the question: "What was the Mi-24 doing in the border area at night?" And there are many such ambiguities, which translate the situation into a kind of provocation.

Yes, the Mi-24 may not be the best helicopter for night combat. Maybe even the worst. So what? Our helicopter flew over the territory of Armenia, for which its crew had all the rights and permissions. Reconnaissance, observation, escort - what's the difference, in the end? The helicopter had the right to be in the airspace of Armenia, and on this we put a fat point.

Further. Could or could it not have hit the Azerbaijani crew with a rocket? Point again. Official Baku admitted that the rocket was theirs. They were shooting from their territory. Apologize. Ready to compensate, etc.

The rest of the reflections on the topics: “could or could not”, “accidentally or not by chance”, “provocation or not”, etc. - this is already on the conscience of everyone.

In fact, our crew did not shoot at anyone, did not pose a threat to anyone. Therefore, the situation can be interpreted in different ways. But in reality everything turned out in favor of Armenia.

You can also fantasize that this is all rigged. Yes, indeed, everything happened in a very timely manner for the Armenian side. But it happened. Accordingly, it was Major Ischuk's crew that saved hundreds of Armenian lives.

I will repeat for the dull lovers of conspiracy and fantasy: Major Ischuk and Senior Lieutenant Fedin have covered hundreds of Armenian soldiers. And Armenia owes these two pilots, no matter what they say. And it is very much obliged.

Armenia did not lose, Azerbaijan did not win

First of all, she is obliged to keep at least something in Karabakh. Yes, we lost Shushi, which will now be Shusha. We lost three districts. But they kept the rest! And it could have been completely different. Armenian media and officials told tales to the whole caring community. Meanwhile, Azerbaijani troops occupied one square kilometer after another. And they would have occupied the whole of Karabakh at such a pace.

So, in such and such light, the defeat of Armenia is actually not quite a defeat.
As well as the victory of Azerbaijan, it also looks very ambiguous.

And now we come to the most basic thing. Who won in Karabak?

And Russia won in Karabakh .

Let's face it: the victory was with the Russian Federation, even though Russia did not play for anyone.

After all, even this spring, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that the Pashinyan government is considering and discussing "a phased plan for a settlement in Karabakh." A huge number of specialists spoke out about this plan. And most of them admitted that the plan was unacceptable to both sides. And that its implementation can lead to the seizure of Karabakh by Azerbaijan.

Which, in fact, happened.

Nikol Pashinyan. Definitely not an ally of Russia. His dancing with the West was appreciated by everyone. Shouts: “We want to join NATO. The complete disdain he showed for Putin in October 2019. Derogatory statements. - All this did not characterize him as an ally and friend.

Attention, the question: "Why should Russia support such ... a neighbor?"

With Azerbaijan, everything is easier, in my opinion. You can simply cooperate with this country without burdening yourself with any global projects.

When Armenia was seized by the velvet revolution, the vector began to shift rapidly. Turkey is not a friend, Azerbaijan is not an enemy, Georgia is not quite an enemy and Armenia is not a friend: here is the situation in which Russia began to rapidly lose its influence in the Transcaucasus.

It is clear that Turkey would like to replace Russia. A Turk and an Azeri are more than brothers (in the usual sense). It's like an Indian and a Pakistani. One people, simply divided by borders.

And the union of Turkey and Azerbaijan is a strong and strong union, which is not entirely realistic to destroy. And this alliance could easily determine the policy beyond the Caucasian ridge.

Conclusions

What do we have today?

The incident with the Russian helicopter turned Russia: from the status of an "observer" to the status of an "injured party". Azerbaijan immediately backed down, and Armenia exhaled.

Yes, Azerbaijan returned a significant part of "its" territories that had belonged to it for a long time. But the problem of Karabakh itself will not be solved yet.

Moreover, the “victorious” Azerbaijan received Russia in its “acquired” territories as an observer and controller.

It is the Russian peacekeepers who will monitor the implementation of the signed documents and monitor the ceasefire over the next five years.

It is the Russian border guards who will control the work of the Lachin corridor between Karabakh and Armenia and a similar corridor between Azerbaijan and the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic.

It was Russia that regained control of the region. Even if she didn’t want to.

We can now talk a lot about what caused it: a fatal accident or a well-planned operation.

The fact is that Russia is again in the political game of the Transcaucasus. For the next five years. What will happen next - we will see in five years. But the fact that the struggle for Karabakh, which began in 1918, will continue is reality. Neither Armenians nor Azerbaijanis will just stop. Some will strive to return what was lost, the second - to take away everything that is left.

But I would like to remind you that now Russia is in the game. Our pilots Major Ischuk and Senior Lieutenant Fedin paid for the peace and quiet in the region with their lives. And all parties should remember this.

Not the best scenario - to make Russia an observer and "breeder" in the age-old squabble around Karabakh. But if this happens, you will have to try to restore order in the region.

This will not appeal to many on both sides of yesterday's front lines. But this was not our initiative, it was not our goal. It's just that Russia will once again have to save other people's lives at its own expense.

But we are historically no stranger to it. But I would very much like the number of victims on our part, albeit in the name of life, to be as few as possible.

Author:
Roman Skomorokhov

Even if Azerbaijan requests Russians to leave in order to take Karabakh by force, Russians won't leave because such a move by Azerbaijan is against peace. So safe to say Azerbaijan lost Karabakh for good the way Georgia lost South Ossetia and Abkazia for good, Ukraine lost Donbas for good, Moldova lost Transnistria for good.

PapaDragon wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:This is the gangster move. Because it let young men die for what is basically a power move....

There's nothing wrong in calling it a gangster move, that's what geopolitics is

And it was Pasha who was letting young men die while he was on the phone with Brussels and giving Russia a stink eye

Plus I'd like to reiterate yet again that Armenia never recognized Nagorno Karabah and never deployed it's military because they didn't want to break any taboos but they had no ​problem expecting Russia to break them on their behalf

Also let's not forget that it was Armenia who kept refusing any Russia brokered solution for past several decades while completely neglecting it's defenses and ditching only country that could save their asses

Recognition is irrelevant. Albania aided Kosovo independence and never recognize Kosovo until 2008. It was the US that recognized Kosovo first, not Albania.

Though Armenians lost the battle, they fought valiantly and slaughtered thousands of Azerbaijani crack troops armed with top notch Israeli hardware, and I don't think any other small country can accomplish that in a month.

The Ottoman wrote:Very good deal from Mr. Putin.

Like i said from the beginning of this conflict; Russia and Turkey would gain the most.

- Russia gains international presitige as peacemaker and will have boots in NK.
- Armenia is saved from extinction and more embaressment
- Azerbajcan showed his strenght and get lost lands back
- Turkey showed the world again their superiour drone-fleet (like in Syria and Libya) and is now definitely a player in the Caucasus.

You and your butt buddies folded after barely hearing the swansong of Russia's LRA. F*gs.

The Ottoman wrote:Very good deal from Mr. Putin.

Like i said from the beginning of this conflict; Russia and Turkey would gain the most.

- Russia gains international presitige as peacemaker and will have boots in NK.
- Armenia is saved from extinction and more embaressment
- Azerbajcan showed his strenght and get lost lands back
- Turkey showed the world again their superiour drone-fleet (like in Syria and Libya) and is now definitely a player in the Caucasus.

lol "superior drone fleet"  drones that were completely owned in lybia and in syria where erdogan terrorist and erdogan military terrorist  lost 50% of "greater idlib ,to the syrian army backed by a few planes.. and a few pantsir defenses.. lol

and by your information troll.. "turkey drones" are not made by turkey ,they are 98% made in america and europe.. and turkey only assembly them in turkey.. after being trainned how to do it.. and your terrorist president later advertise them as "turkey revolution". simply anglo nato and israel are the true creators of the drones that azerbajian used.. even those f-16 that turkey use are 100% america.. so don't try to promote lies here , turkey is a third world terrorist state with a primitive scientific and technology industry.. because almost everything that erdogan have on its military with electronics was made in the west.. and now also by russia.

turkey is just another saudi arabia ,a parasite state ,that everything they have was given by american and europeans..  without anglo europeans support.. turkey will not exist today , since
it was british empire ,backed by most of europe , the ones who blocked the russian army to march on istanbul to return it the christians which is where it belongs..  so turkey only exist thanks to americans and british.. without them turkey will be nothing ,just another iraq. and will not have neither planes ,neither tanks , neither anything ,turkey will not even exist today ,since will have been over run by the russian empire ,when ottoman empire was routed from southern europe by the russians... peter the great wanted for very long to completely erase turkey from the map..  

Russia is the killer of terrorist empires..  

-mongol empire.. check.
-ottoman empire.. check
-persian empire.. check..

and also killer of fascist euro empires..
-sweden empire
-napoleon empire
-hitler nazi empire

next ones..
- turkey second mini ottoman empire.
-the anglo zionist empire.

video : The fall of Ottomans..  



notice how much territory the turks lost ,(70%) when russia declared war on the ottomans..  
and today will be even worse for the turks.. in a full scale war with russia ,because russia can flatern every inch of turkey  territory without losing a single soldier, with just 5% of its nuclear arsenal ,just pressing buttons on a table of controls. Very interesting video.  

So erdogan is a full is he think he have a chance to restore their failed ottoman empire , it will be
russia again the one that will finish. and if you think that erdogan building alliances with third world countries in central asia is a match for russia , just look a little bit to the south east of russia map ,
who is there..  the mighty china.. which could even help russia  if ever there was a need for it to speed up the destruction of muslims terrorist states in central asia.
So indeed islam is a true blessing for the anglo powers.. because they know they can easily manipulate the middle east to fight their wars ,commit suicide  for nothing. anglo nato knows turkey have no chance versus russia in a full scale fight.. they only use turkey to delay as much as possible russia navy advance to western europe through the mediterranean sea and keep russian navy away from NATO major naval bases in italy.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:Even if Azerbaijan requests Russians to leave in order to take Karabakh by force, Russians won't leave because such a move by Azerbaijan is against peace. So safe to say Azerbaijan lost Karabakh for good the way Georgia lost South Ossetia and Abkazia for good, Ukraine lost Donbas for good, Moldova lost Transnistria for good.

NK was split in two. Armenians are leaving some villages that will be given to Azerbaijan per the agreement.

That could have been done by talks and stop the conflict forever without any war.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

kvs wrote:So Russia sending in peacekeepers is a gangster move, eh?

Wow, such BS it is right off the meter.   If Russia did not take any action there would have been no NK and local Armenians left.
As usual we see the demented double standards applied to Russia.   Pussynians whoring for Russia's enemies is supposedly
a total non-issue and certainly not a "gangster move", but Russia securing a peace deal when Pussynian's Armenia did precisely
fuck all to save NK is in the wrong.  

Seriously, put the crack pipe down.  What is it with you Blakanoids.   You want Turkish rule so badly, do you?

That kind of makes sense.  

Yes Russia could have shown the goods, Blasted couple of drones out of the sky with its AF from Erebuni, and if the Azeris or Turks would have shot down that one, make them taste some kalibr for shits and giggles.
Instead they let Turks operate almost freely vs Armenia.

You little buggers were saying it isn't Russia's business (i can quote all the official position gang) while it WAS since the get go, but Russia used it cynically to bring pash down. This is the gangster move. Because it let young men die for what is basically a power move.

Also this isn't a peace deal you mongrel, it's a cease fire that will absolutely back fire in medium term. However, now Russia has boots on the ground which is what it was expecting for ages.

Wanting Russia to blast Turkoshaks is wanting Turks to rule? Oh wow you folks make as much sense as Erdogan.

It's clear that Turkey can do whatever it wants to in the world, so long as it maintains good ties with Washington and Moscow and respects the 'seniority' of their interests in the places where Turkish ambitions can clash with such.
Turkey is also going to have to build strong ties with Beijing in the next 10-20 years as well, else it's going to end up getting smacked down hard by it, the attempted meddling in the Uyghur territory won't be forgotten.